However... if we're a cool, hip, vibrant city it seems as though that might help us compete. Diversification in hotel stock and spreading around pedestrians seems like a great way to spur additional momentum.

This.

The things that we should be investing in, that OKC should demand, should be limited to things that help everyone. Developing into a cool, hip, vibrant city is something that can be enjoyed by everyone regardless of where they call home or what they do, as long as they come to OKC to enjoy the city.

We should take a step back and analyze just how bad it would be for conferences to instead want to be in OKC because it's a great place, and not just because it has a great, isolated conference facility. I want people to come to OKC for the right reasons.

We can't compete in this convention center arms race as well as we might want to because it's just become too expensive. Look at what Nashville did. Wow. There are things with which we can be very competitive though. We need a new convention facility just to have an alright place, but it should never overshadow the effort to make OKC a great place, which it certainly aspires to.

Regarding the rail system, we already voted on that. And most of the people involved are going to do everything we can to make sure it's built.

Not to mention that even if a CC Hotel is not built, there will still be a permanent streetcar route that will go right by the CC and will be close enough for all of the conventioneers to hop on to to get to the CC.

I just tried looking at COTPA's METRO bus route page to see when the busses (4 of them) come by the future CC site on Robinson and I couldn't really make it out but the streetcar will have a timetable that will be kept to the T and will not be able to be moved off route spurring more development. Haven't seen the busses do that...

Not to mention that even if a CC Hotel is not built, there will still be a permanent streetcar route that will go right by the CC and will be close enough for all of the conventioneers to hop on to to get to the CC.

I just tried looking at COTPA's METRO bus route page to see when the busses (4 of them) come by the future CC site on Robinson and I couldn't really make it out but the streetcar will have a timetable that will be kept to the T and will not be able to be moved off route spurring more development. Haven't seen the busses do that...

Good point.

Good point.

Thank you sir.

Not to mention that even if a CC Hotel is not built, there will still be a permanent streetcar route that will go right by the CC and will be close enough for all of the conventioneers to hop on to to get to the CC...
I'm sorry but that is gross exaggeration. I'm not suggesting it is intentional on your part, but I have over the past few years heard a number of people suggest the streetcar as some sort of miracle salve/gamechanger/panacea for the convention center, should it be poorly located related to the rooms and amenities required to make it competitive.

This is not at all an attack on the streetcar; if done correctly it will be a fine asset for downtown, but it will have limited relevance related to the CC, due to capacity. You say it "...will be close enough for all of the conventioneers to hop on to to get to the CC...", but that will only be true if attendees are in the (low) hundreds rather than thousands. UP can correct me, but I think each piece of equipment holds maybe 100-120 passengers. Over the course of an entire day it could carry many thousands, but not in a 10-15 minute window.

I'm not sure what the headways or number of trains would be (again, UP can weigh in, sorry I haven't paid more attention to the planning process), but that would mean if every piece of equipment was at the front door at the same time (would never happen) a few hundred people could board simultaneously and the others would wait what...15 minutes for the return? Not workable in any way for an event that might discharge 5K or 8K or more, all on a tight schedule (an hour for lunch?).

Again, not knocking the streetcar, which will be fine for many things and a nice AMENITY for convention-goers; it only underscores the importance of the CC and all of the elements that make it competitive (ample rooms, entertainment, dining) all to be within short walking distance of each other. Convenient rooms and amenities within a short walking distance are THE currencies that make a CC either succeed or fail.

LOL, don't get me wrong and I wasn't trying to misconstrue what the streetcar can't do but I wasn't trying to say that they were going to line up all the trainsets and play pick up the conventioneers :-) They're probably going to be 3 car sets and maybe 40 tops per car so, yes, that will not happen. But between conventioneers who 1) rent a car 2) ride the bus 3) take a taxi 4) walk to the CC or 5) take the streetcar, it's just another option that will be available to OKC visitiors.

(Chad, sorry for the sheer volume of text below, just a disclaimer that I'm not ranting at you, just engaging you in a thoughtful dialog about the role the streetcar could play)


I'm sorry but that is gross exaggeration. I'm not suggesting it is intentional on your part, but I have over the past few years heard a number of people suggest the streetcar as some sort of miracle salve/gamechanger/panacea for the convention center, should it be poorly located related to the rooms and amenities required to make it competitive.

This is not at all an attack on the streetcar; if done correctly it will be a fine asset for downtown, but it will have limited relevance related to the CC, due to capacity. You say it "...will be close enough for all of the conventioneers to hop on to to get to the CC...", but that will only be true if attendees are in the (low) hundreds rather than thousands. UP can correct me, but I think each piece of equipment holds maybe 100-120 passengers. Over the course of an entire day it could carry many thousands, but not in a 10-15 minute window.

I'm not sure what the headways or number of trains would be (again, UP can weigh in, sorry I haven't paid more attention to the planning process), but that would mean if every piece of equipment was at the front door at the same time (would never happen) a few hundred people could board simultaneously and the others would wait what...15 minutes for the return? Not workable in any way for an event that might discharge 5K or 8K or more, all on a tight schedule (an hour for lunch?).

Again, not knocking the streetcar, which will be fine for many things and a nice AMENITY for convention-goers; it only underscores the importance of the CC and all of the elements that make it competitive (ample rooms, entertainment, dining) all to be within short walking distance of each other. Convenient rooms and amenities within a short walking distance are THE currencies that make a CC either succeed or fail.

Define gross exaggeration...

I too would love an update from UP on the planning process, as always, but I am still under the impression that we're planning on roughly 10 minute headways. So within a 30 minute stretch, it's reasonable to assume that 3 streetcars will pass by, each carrying 100-120 passengers but certainly able to go above capacity as well (shhh! don't tell anyone lol).

Whenever I get on the "Rapid" (our old LRT system) in Cleveland at rush hour, you're literally fighting for a decent place to stand as you squeeze in between big shoulders, brief cases, and carry-on luggage. One little two-car train will carry a few hundred people IF you get on during rush hour or after a Browns or Indians game. The operators all look the other way and none of the RTA police block off people, in fact, they pitch in to help pack more people onto the train so that nobody has to wait.

That's what the streetcar would be like during Thunder games and huge conventions, at least as long as we're not misguided enough to actually require fares to cover a pittance (or maybe just do fare-free for certain event periods, which is important to boast "rapid-boarding" as a feature). The point is that "rapid-boarding" allows enough flexibility so that the capacity number really is irrelevant as it becomes more about how many bodies can you pack inside the streetcar.

Obviously you won't get a whole convention in the thousands on a streetcar, but more than 120, and with around 3 streetcars coming within 30 minutes, and people staying at hotels all around downtown all within varying distances from the CC - it's not unreasonable to assume that the streetcar will be very important.

The major counter-point to the CC hotel is that even then, with 600-800 rooms, that's still just a fraction of the attendance at some of these huge conventions we want to go after. So what gives? :/

Also in their off time from the convention, all 800 people won't be boarding at once. But will have steady traffic in and out of the hotel all day.

I even think assuming that everyone will want to get to the CC within a window of 30 minutes from eachother is a big assumption..an hour is probably more reasonable as in my experience people just leisurely trickle in, while many will head down in advance to help out or meet with somebody or so on.

But also keep in mind we're talking about a distance of 5 blocks at the most, with most Bricktown hotels closer (like 2-3). In downtowns I've had work, meetings, interviews etc in, I routinely walk more than 5 blocks. That's nothing.

Just a few notes...

Conventional streetcars tend to hold 120 people at full capacity both standing and sitting.

Frequency is ideal between 8 to 12 minutes.

It is possible that additional streetcars could be activated for special events to assist with capacity and distribution of people.

Undoubtedly, it is my opinion that Urbanized is right when he asserts skepticism to the mass exodus of people that can occur after a major event. However, what the streetcar system can do as related to the convention center is provide direct linkage between distributed hotels and the CC property thus distributing the load. People staying farther away traveling "inbound" to the Convention Center is a totally different load dynamic than the "exodus" at the end of an event. Also, streetcar can take on the role of more of a "people mover" between two specific points close together. For example, the SE corner of Robinson and OKC Boulevard was discussed as a "offsite" hotel being not directly connected to the proposed convention center. Depending on how the streetcar system is designed, such an offsite location could have a third track or passing track to provide enhanced connectivity to a car running independently from point to point during events and inclement weather and then return to normal service on the entire loop. So there are different ways of doing it.

As someone who lived in Deep Deuce for nearly a decade, I was always fascinating to me watch the "boom and "bust" nature of Bricktown so heavily dependent on these mass "waves" or "exoduses" of people. The larger the event, the further people would/do walk as the first eateries such as Abuelo's would fill up first. A good convention was described to me by a couple of merchants as enough people to fill up all the way to Crabtown. At least that used to be the marker. lol

Streetcar will help pedestrians travel further and will help diversify the financial impact on merchants and restauranteurs. It will enable pedestrians to make choices on where they want to eat/shop rather than how far can their legs take them. This system will be healthy for all of downtown including Bricktown.

Not too promote thyself too heavily, but here is a blog post that I recently did comparing the new Cleveland convention center (with some photos I took) to the OKC boondoggle and pointing out some things that OKC could learn from Cleveland. Essentially it boils down to two things: 1, keep the CC out of the way of downtown's growth and traffic flow; and 2, tie the facility into something that is useful and relevant in your regional economy. Cleveland's CC is marketed as a "medical mart."

So this is what $465 million looks like | eurokie (http://eurokie.wordpress.com/2013/07/16/so-this-is-what-465-million-looks-like/)

Other than the name, what makes the "medical mart" different from a regular multipurpose convention center?

Not too promote thyself too heavily, but here is a blog post that I recently did comparing the new Cleveland convention center (with some photos I took) to the OKC boondoggle and pointing out some things that OKC could learn from Cleveland. Essentially it boils down to two things: 1, keep the CC out of the way of downtown's growth and traffic flow; and 2, tie the facility into something that is useful and relevant in your regional economy. Cleveland's CC is marketed as a "medical mart."

So this is what $465 million looks like | eurokie (http://eurokie.wordpress.com/2013/07/16/so-this-is-what-465-million-looks-like/)

I especially like your About page About | eurokie (http://eurokie.wordpress.com/about/)


It's so full of information.

Other than the name, what makes the "medical mart" different from a regular multipurpose convention center?

The primary physical element (most of it is above ground) is a large showcase for healthcare innovation, with four floors with different exhibition themes, like healthcare education, etc. Space is leased to innovative R&D outfits like Philips Healthcare, GE Healthcare, Johnson Controls, etc.

A model like this could help OKC cement it's position in either the energy or aerospace fields, but I'd go aerospace because we desperately need to diversify, just as Cleveland is using eds and meds to rebuild its economy.

The primary physical element (most of it is above ground) is a large showcase for healthcare innovation, with four floors with different exhibition themes, like healthcare education, etc. Space is leased to innovative R&D outfits like Philips Healthcare, GE Healthcare, Johnson Controls, etc.

A model like this could help OKC cement it's position in either the energy or aerospace fields, but I'd go aerospace because we desperately need to diversify, just as Cleveland is using eds and meds to rebuild its economy.

But isn't that just the marketing façade of the facility. Surely there isn't any thing structural or in the building materials that exclusively lends itself to the medical industry. Once the OKC center is done there is nothing to stop them from calling it the Energy-mart or Aviation-mart and putting up some signs and displays.

But isn't that just the marketing façade of the facility. Surely there isn't any thing structural or in the building materials that exclusively lends itself to the medical industry. Once the OKC center is done there is nothing to stop them from calling it the Energy-mart or Aviation-mart and putting up some signs and displays.

Well they would have to build a space that is conducive to the kind if permanent exhibition space that industry needs. That's the catch.

Thanks Spartan. I now understand that is a 2-part facility; convention center and industry specific marketplace.

I'm with JTF. I don't understand why exhibit space isn't just exhibit space. Do the booths they set up at medical conventions take up more space than others?

Spartan, how much of the new facility is dedicated to full time services that focus on the healthcare, etc.? Did they offer preferential permanent space, offices and such, for med companies and services? Are there specific functions required for servicing the med business? Special meeting halls, presentation equipment, IT infrastructure, etc.?

It seems like a flex facility can be marketed as you suggest. We can be an energy mart center and still accommodate other meetings. But, that would seem to indicated additional space, and maybe even outdoor space, to display large equipment. That might be something better done at the fairgrounds. But, you present an interesting argument. I believe one should always play to their strengths and avoid trying to be everything to everyone. Targeting is more efficient than is shotgunning.

Ok I am back after a 2 year absence.. Whats new in OKC LOL just kidding

Ok I am back after a 2 year absence.. Whats new in OKC LOL just kidding

Great to see you again.

Since you own a big chunk of property at the intersection that bears your name, perhaps you should tell us??

You have to been hearing things about the convention center property acquisition, the Stage Center site and the Preftakes block. For that matter, you own property was targeted as a garage site by a recent City study of downtown parking.

So, spill! :)

Great to see you again.

Since you own a big chunk of property at the intersection that bears your name, perhaps you should tell us??

You have to been hearing things about the convention center property acquisition, the Stage Center site and the Preftakes block. For that matter, you own property was targeted as a garage site by a recent City study of downtown parking.

So, spill! :)

I'll second this !

Spartan, how much of the new facility is dedicated to full time services that focus on the healthcare, etc.? Did they offer preferential permanent space, offices and such, for med companies and services? Are there specific functions required for servicing the med business? Special meeting halls, presentation equipment, IT infrastructure, etc.?

It seems like a flex facility can be marketed as you suggest. We can be an energy mart center and still accommodate other meetings. But, that would seem to indicated additional space, and maybe even outdoor space, to display large equipment. That might be something better done at the fairgrounds. But, you present an interesting argument. I believe one should always play to their strengths and avoid trying to be everything to everyone. Targeting is more efficient than is shotgunning.

It was preferential permanent space, but there are revenue-generating leases signed for all of the spaces. It is actually a much more assured model than a conventional CC. The tenants were solicited through Cleveland's existing ED pipeline which is very medical-oriented.

So with the stage center selling for approx $4.28 million, what does this mean for land acquisition costs of the Ford site?

I was thinking the same thing. Certainly sounds a bit lower than expected....but I honestly don't know what land typically sell for in the CBD.

So with the stage center selling for approx $4.28 million, what does this mean for land acquisition costs of the Ford site?

I dunno, maybe take the SC sale price, add to that price what I presume was a discount due to the seller having to reclaim the land to a more usable state (such an interesting way to say raze SC), then figure the per acre price from that, and then factor that figure or something close to it against the cc space?

So with the stage center selling for approx $4.28 million, what does this mean for land acquisition costs of the Ford site?

4.3 mil ..for 3.168 plus demo costs ... which i would guess = at least 500-700 k (huge guess) .. putting it at 5 mil(or more) .. for develop-able space ...

CC site is 20 acres ..

using the same price puts it at 30 mil .. give or take .. which would be over acquisition budget ... but still within reach

I think demo costs will be higher. But I don't think the sale price would necessarily be discounted by the full costs of the demo.

Interesting article. Nothing terribly surprising here, but I hope the ultimate designers of our new convention center are reading this. Since the CC committee has chosen such an important block on which to build, we don't need a featureless box.

Convene Article Walk This Way: Urban Planner Jeff Speck Is On a Mission To Promote Walkable Cities (http://pcma.org/convene-content/convene-article/2013/08/01/walk-this-way-urban-planner-jeff-speck-is-on-a-mission-to-promote-walkable-cities#.UjW-DDy9LCQ)

4.3 mil ..for 3.168 plus demo costs ... which i would guess = at least 500-700 k (huge guess) .. putting it at 5 mil(or more) .. for develop-able space ...

CC site is 20 acres ..

using the same price puts it at 30 mil .. give or take .. which would be over acquisition budget ... but still within reach

Does anyone know what happened to that $30 million that was budgeted for moving that OG&E downtown power grid? That would give you $280 million for developing the convention center instead of $250 million.

Does anyone know what happened to that $30 million that was budgeted for moving that OG&E downtown power grid? That would give you $280 million for developing the convention center instead of $250 million.

It was moved into the contingency fund.

It was moved into the contingency fund.

Which was a bright move on the part of the council folk. Keeps options open. Doesn't make waves.

And why hasn't San Antonio gotten a team yet? they did exactly this, and are still looking for a team some 15 years later

The same reason LA doesn't have a team. No teams available, no expansion and no suitable venue. The Alamodome is no longer a suitable venue. I can guarantee a new stadium would get built if a team was promised. This city would vote for a tax or tourist tax extension in a heartbeat to fund a stadium if a team were guaranteed.

Seems like this project just dropped off the radar. Has the City made an offer on the Ford Dealer site yet?

Seems like this project just dropped off the radar. Has the City made an offer on the Ford Dealer site yet?

I believe they are waiting for the owners to get back to them with an asking price.

And for course from there, there will be a counter-offer then you can bet legal arbitration ala Sante Fe Station.

So in the meantime - what happens, nothing? It just seems weird that this project was pushed up as super urgent, and then all goes quite.

I believe this is just the way the process works: Council approves the intention to buy, the property owners are verified and asked for a asking price, they are allowed a certain amount of time to run comparables and respond, the City does the same in the counter-offer, etc.

So in the meantime - what happens, nothing? It just seems weird that this project was pushed up as super urgent, and then all goes quite.

What happens is in the background. the push up by council just means this happens now, not later, and goes on while other bits of shiny keep the attention of the masses, lest the masses begin to try and do a Shadid style press against the cc. So long as enough shiny exists to keep anyone from paying too much attention, they can be more methodical on the cc and not be in the bright light of public flashlights (or so goes one theory of thought anyway.)

I am curious if the reason for moving it up in the timeline is because they knew the negotiation for the site would take a while whereas the park already had a predetermined location, as did the state fairgrounds improvements and the Oklahoma River improvements. The wellness center, trails and sidewalks are all ongoing with multiple locations so it can be broken up into different phases. Also, the convention center is one of the few parts of the Maps3 vote that actually make money, the other being the state fairground improvements. So, if they build those first, more sales tax revenue for the later projects can be brought in.

I am curious if the reason for moving it up in the timeline is because they knew the negotiation for the site would take a while whereas the park already had a predetermined location, as did the state fairgrounds improvements and the Oklahoma River improvements. The wellness center, trails and sidewalks are all ongoing with multiple locations so it can be broken up into different phases. Also, the convention center is one of the few parts of the Maps3 vote that actually make money, the other being the state fairground improvements. So, if they build those first, more sales tax revenue for the later projects can be brought in.

...just spin'n wheels. There is not ONE Single Reason for delays. These "tasks" should be hit on each day. One more thing, when a Consultant says "they need 60 days"...lets, put it in 20 days, and make them "push as well".

I am curious if the reason for moving it up in the timeline is because they knew the negotiation for the site would take a while whereas the park already had a predetermined location, as did the state fairgrounds improvements and the Oklahoma River improvements. The wellness center, trails and sidewalks are all ongoing with multiple locations so it can be broken up into different phases. Also, the convention center is one of the few parts of the Maps3 vote that actually make money, the other being the state fairground improvements. So, if they build those first, more sales tax revenue for the later projects can be brought in.

I know people like to think the Convention Center will make money - but it won't. No convention center makes money. It is going to cost over $250 million to build. Any idea how many conventions it would have to host recoup $250 million in rental fees? Most convention centers require operating subsidies just to keep the doors open, let alone pay back the cost of construction. If they made money we wouldn't need MAPS, banks would be lining up to loan us the money based on a projected financial statement. That's why you don't see a lot of private sector convention centers unless they are attached to a casino or theme park.

I know people like to the Convention Centers will make money - but it won't. No convention center makes money. It is going to cost over $250 million to build. Any idea how many conventions it would have to host recoup $250 million in rental fees? Most convention centers require operating subsidies just to keep the doors open, let alone pay back the cost of construction.

Their ( R O I ) is an In-Direct manor. The sooner we get it going, the quicker that $250 M gets softened up.

I know people like to think the Convention Center will make money - but it won't. No convention center makes money. It is going to cost over $250 million to build. Any idea how many conventions it would have to host recoup $250 million in rental fees? Most convention centers require operating subsidies just to keep the doors open, let alone pay back the cost of construction. If they made money we wouldn't need MAPS, banks would be lining up to loan us the money based on a projected financial statement.

Sorry, I am not talking about making money in terms of paying off the building, I may have phrased it wrong. What I meant was it would make money in that it would bring in people who would produce a lot of sales tax revenue for the city and other MAPS projects. I know the river improvements will bring tourists in to watch rowing competitions, but not as much as a new convention center would make off people coming in from out of town, getting a per diem, staying at hotels, eating out, etc.

Sorry, I am not talking about making money in terms of paying off the building, I may have phrased it wrong. What I meant was it would make money in that it would bring in people who would produce a lot of sales tax revenue for the city and other MAPS projects. I know the river improvements will bring tourists in to watch rowing competitions, but not as much as a new convention center would make off people coming in from out of town, getting a per diem, staying at hotels, eating out, etc.

The more "attractive" we make the Convention Center & Hotel Experience, the more up-side we will have w/ ( outside money / revenue ) coming in. If we settle for average, then we will get below average returns. I want that HOTEL to be 55 stories of RITZ Carlton...(ok, but that level) and this will be the Conversation Piece for Convention goers. ...pluse all the other River / Bricktown / Central Park events & attractions.

Sorry, I am not talking about making money in terms of paying off the building, I may have phrased it wrong. What I meant was it would make money in that it would bring in people who would produce a lot of sales tax revenue for the city and other MAPS projects. I know the river improvements will bring tourists in to watch rowing competitions, but not as much as a new convention center would make off people coming in from out of town, getting a per diem, staying at hotels, eating out, etc.

If that was the goal let's not build the convention center and just recycle the $250 million directly. The City get's like 4 cent for each dollar spent so it would take $5,000,000,000 in visitor spending just to break even on construction cost. Since only 1/3 of the events attract out-of-town visitors the convention center would have to generate $15 billion in spending. That isn't going to happen

Just sell it as a 'quality of life' project. It is okay to have nice things without having to justify them with pie in the sky financial projections. My TV doesn't make me a dime in revenue (in fact - it cost me money to operate), but I like having it because it enhances my life.

On edit - maybe I read your last post wrong. Yes, if I owned a hotel and upscale restaurant across the street I would want it built as soon as possible because I get to keep 92% of all the money spent.

I'm not sure how attractive a $250 million convention center can be. That's why I wish it were going to be more out of the way. But what attracts convention-goers is not how beautiful the convention center is, but rather, how much else there is to do when you get there. The streetcar will work well for convention attenders, as eating is one of the chief forms of entertainment, and there's some good dining along the streetcar route. But I think if we could entice more retail to downtown, Auto Alley, Midtown or Bricktown, if we made it easy to get to the Adventure District, if we finished the Native American Cultural Center and get UP permission to open that walkway/canal under I-40, that's what will bring in visitors and conventions.

If that was the goal let's not build the convention center and just recycle the $250 million directly. The City get's like 4 cent for each dollar spent so it would take $5,000,000,000 in visitor spending just to break even on construction cost. Since only 1/3 of the events attract out-of-town visitors the convention center would have to generate $15 billion in spending. That isn't going to happen

Just sell it as a 'quality of life' project. It is okay to have nice things without having to justify them with pie in the sky financial projections. My TV doesn't make me a dime in revenue (in fact - it cost me money to operate), but I like having it because it enhances my life.

On edit - maybe I read your last post wrong. Yes, if I owned a hotel and upscale restaurant across the street I would want it built as soon as possible because I get to keep 92% of all the money spent.

Your avatar is scary so I agree with you.

I know people like to think the Convention Center will make money - but it won't. No convention center makes money. It is going to cost over $250 million to build. Any idea how many conventions it would have to host recoup $250 million in rental fees? Most convention centers require operating subsidies just to keep the doors open, let alone pay back the cost of construction. If they made money we wouldn't need MAPS, banks would be lining up to loan us the money based on a projected financial statement. That's why you don't see a lot of private sector convention centers unless they are attached to a casino or theme park.

It is not the rental that is the revenue generator. It is tax dollars. Larger conventions for longer periods of time. Not to mention that it is new dollars brought in from outside the community. Cities like Chicago have done it for years. They keep adding on to McCormic so they are the largest convention center in the world. When someone builds a bigger convention center Chicago adds on to McCormic again and so it goes.

Your avatar is scary so I agree with you.good note...good note

An update by Steve.

http://www.oklahoman.com/article/3896494?embargo=1


The Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority is awaiting response on offers totaling $13.5 million for properties targeted for construction of a new convention center and conference hotel.


Tom McDaniel, chairman of the MAPS 3 Citizens Advisory Board, said he expects the designs to be submitted for vote this fall.


“It will fit on the site,” McDaniel said. “The site will accommodate future expansion and development. The site will also accommodate a convention center hotel needed. And the architects indicate it will fit within the budget — so we feel good about that.”

The conceptual design narrowed the plaza between the convention center, which would be built facing Reno Avenue just west of Harvey Avenue, and a proposed conference hotel, which could be built at the corner of Reno and Robinson Avenues.

Oklahoma City awaits response on offers for property for MAPS 3 convention center, hotel | NewsOK.com (http://m.newsok.com/oklahoma-city-awaits-response-on-offers-for-property-for-maps-3-convention-center-hotel/article/3896494)

It is not the rental that is the revenue generator. It is tax dollars. Larger conventions for longer periods of time. Not to mention that it is new dollars brought in from outside the community. Cities like Chicago have done it for years. They keep adding on to McCormic so they are the largest convention center in the world. When someone builds a bigger convention center Chicago adds on to McCormic again and so it goes.

That is what I said. The convention center runs at a deficit and requires a constant subsidy. Since 2/3 of all visitors to the current convention center come from metro OKC how much growth is required from the other 1/3 to meet the revenue projections from the Chamber. Someone did the math a while back and it was 900%. Does 900% growth seem reasonable to expect? It doesn't to me.

They should have promoted the convention center as a 'quality of life' project. It is okay for the city spend money on nice things for the people to enjoy and enhance their experience, but making up financial impact numbers is so 1990's - and insulting.

They're ahead of schedule, having moved up conceptual design because delaying the boulevard delays the park. Kind of ironic, as many of the people promoting lowering the boulevard are least enameled of the convention center site.

That is what I said. The convention center runs at a deficit and requires a constant subsidy. Since 2/3 of all visitors to the current convention center come from metro OKC how much growth is required from the other 1/3 to meet the revenue projections from the Chamber. Someone did the math a while back and it was 900%. Does 900% growth seem reasonable to expect? It doesn't to me.

They should have promoted the convention center as a 'quality of life' project. It is okay for the city spend money on nice things for the people to enjoy and enhance their experience, but making up financial impact numbers is so 1990's - and insulting.

That kind of growth is possible given that there is very little actual convention space in the cox center. The new cc will allow Okc to bring in larger groups that typically stay longer. If it makes you feel better to look at it as a quality of life issue I can agree with they too.

I am curious if the reason for moving it up in the timeline is because they knew the negotiation for the site would take a while whereas the park already had a predetermined location, as did the state fairgrounds improvements and the Oklahoma River improvements. The wellness center, trails and sidewalks are all ongoing with multiple locations so it can be broken up into different phases. Also, the convention center is one of the few parts of the Maps3 vote that actually make money, the other being the state fairground improvements. So, if they build those first, more sales tax revenue for the later projects can be brought in.
I argued the same thing when before the vote, the Mayor stated that it was his preference that the Convention Center be "staged last". Seemed like a no brainer to get it up and running ASAP (although with it being the most expensive MAPS 3 project, it would take about 2.5 to 3 years of tax collections to have all of the money in hand with no money being spent on anything else). The same argument was put forth by the Chamber/those on the C.C. subcommittee when they were pushing for it to be moved up. Up until then, the C.C. was sold as a revenue generator (the Chamber/consultants claimed that revenue would increase 3-fold or 300%). It was during the push that they were selling it in terms of the local "quality of life" use, and revealing that 2/3 of the business is local. As JTF pointed out, that means that only 1/3 of your business is from out of area and to get the 3-fold (300%) increase in revenues claimed, that out of area business will have to increase 9-fold (900%). I haven't heard anyone from the Chamber claim that is even a possibility.

The problem with the revised timeline is that the C.C. won't be open until after the MAPS 3 tax has ended. So not one dime of additional revenue for other MAPS 3 projects from getting it moved up. Projects that are being pushed to the back of the line are getting some more money but when adjusted for inflation, is probably a wash.

Won't the river improvements bring in some money? How about the streetcar? Won't that spur more development and indirectly make money for the city?

Not sure about river improvements since most spending on events there will come from local wallets anyhow - but the streetcar will fundamentally change the economics of development along the route. Development that wasn't possible anywhere in the city will now become possible because the automobile is taken out of the equation. When you can build an apartment building, retail, or office space and either greatly reduce the parking required (or in some cases drop it completely) it significant changes the costs and allows the entire lot be used for revenue generation.

OK, there is a difference there. The streetcar will likely bring new investment to the downtown area, no question. Without a doubt a good thing. But what they are suggesting - and I know some here dispute this - is that the convention center will bring NEW MONEY into the economy, thereby increasing the tax base without additional burden on the local taxpayer. That is a benefit of luring more visitors (and visitor $$) to the city. I don't think you are giving the river improvements enough credit in this regard, as the regatta events heavily draw outsiders (similar to Womens College World Series and some other sporting events). So what they are saying is that finishing generators of new revenue first will increase the overall pot. The logic really isn't disputable, although the projected revenue is, as has been pointed out here.

Urbanized: I agree completely, bringing NEW out of area revenue is what is needed. The question is, will a new C.C. center (the way we are doing it) accomplish that goal? According to the Chamber's consultants and the Chamber's guest speaker pre-vote, what we are building in Phase 1 barely meets their CURRENT needs, much less what those needs may be by the time it gets built. In other words, we are building it too small and will have already outgrown it before it opens. Then to get to the needed capacity it will require funding which won't be available until and if MAPS 4 is passed and the additional time lag from passage to tax collections to completion. Most likely the cycle will repeat itself.

I have always been a bit leery of the revenue projections promised and think it reality our new convention center might be at an operational break even (rather than the multi-million operating loss of the Cox). In direct revenue, the C.C. will never pay for itself (from a construction standpoint) but can be mitigated by indirect revenue.

I have heard all of this before. Particularly in 1994 when the first MAPS proposed an arena across the street from the Cox Center. Hid sight is always 20/20 and I am really glad that the project to build the Chesapeake arena did not get killed. I have said it before, Maps is the best thing that this city has ever done. I voted for all of them and I see no reason to worry that this one won't be even better. Heck, I am ready to vote yes for MAPS 4 if there is such a thing. Just my personal opinion.