Here is a list of all the convention at the Austin Convention Center for the month of July. If OKC puts together a class A facility with a kick-butt hotel, how many of these conventions do you think we can lure to OKC? Answer - none (well maybe the Soroity meeting).

City of Austin - Planning & Development Review Department
Imagine Austin Comprehensive Plan Prioritization Meeting

Texas PTA
Texas PTA Summer Convention


Four On The Floor, LLC
TXRD Lonestar Rollergirls - July

Police Activities League of Austin
PAL Summer Boxing Clinic


University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston
2011 Texas Early Childhood Leadership Summit

Austin Texas Rollergirls, Inc.
Texas Rollergirls Bout 6

Vintage Market and Event Company
City-Wide Garage Sale

City of Austin - Planning & Development Review Department
Imagine Austin Comprehensive Plan Prioritization Meeting

Department of State Health Services
Texas Behavioral Health Institute

Association of Texas Professional Educators
ATPE Summit

Delta Sigma Theta Sorority
SW Regional Conference

City of Austin - Planning & Development Review Department
Imagine Austin Comprehensive Plan Prioritization Meeting -

Four On The Floor, LLC
TXRD Lonestar Rollergirls

Body Mind Spirit Expos
Body Mind Spirit Expo

Texas Board of Law Examiners
2011 Texas Bar Examination

Texas Affiliation of Affordable Housing Providers
2011 Texas Housing Conference Luncheon

National Instruments
NIWeek 2011

Just for giggles - do you want me to post the August conventions as well, because it is more of the same.

No your point is taken. You are of the opinion it is hopeless. OKC will never be successful in the market. We cannot compete. Let us save ourselves into prosperity.

It always amazes me the people who think we can make this a great city by crawling in a hole. If we don't built it, they won't come. If we make it a crappy place to live we won't have to build streets and schools for all those people who might move here either.

Again, we are either in the game, or not.

No your point is taken. You are of the opinion it is hopeless. OKC will never be successful in the market. We cannot compete.

No, you missed the point. When you say OKC needs to compete, what are we competing for and who is the competition? 95% of the time, the only city we are competing against is Tulsa because nearly all conventions are local and/or state. There is the occaisonal regional conference but OKC is already in that rotation. Large national tradeshow conventions will never come to OKC. They will also never go to Austin, Kansas City, or Denver. Maybe once every 50 to 75 years one of those cities might see a national political convention but that is it. I'm not saying we shouldn't have a nice convention center, but we don't need a porsche to go to the grocery store.

Just the facts?You sound like just opinions!

We need an "ignore" button.

We need an "ignore" button.

Go to "Settings" at the top of the page, then "Edit Ignore List" on the left side of the next screen and type in the names of anyone you want to ignore.

I undertand what JTF is try ing to say, most conventions are local/state - Austin's cc calendar already looks like OKC's.

So what competition is OKC expecting to get into that the city isn't already in? OKC is already in the regional rotations and with a new cc we could expect to be in the comp with other Tier 2 cities (??).

Anyways, I agree we need a new cc and the voters did vote for it. But will it really be an economic boon for the city? Other, more attractive cities have tried and built bigger/better facilities than OKC's proposed (I assume) and their calendars look like Austins, which looks like OKC's ALREADY.

The argument that I assume JTF is trying to make, is there may not be a huge need to move the cc ahead in M3 calendar - we need a new cc but we dont need it now nor at the expense of higher scoring M3 projects because the convention business nationwide is in a slump and the ONLY competition would come from getting a big convention - which Chicago, Orlando, and Las Vegas have those sealed; how can OKC expect to compete against those cities when more desirable cities (Denver, KC, Austin) in OKC's league can't. ??

Back to the hotel, if the CC committee is lobbying to move up it's completion based on economic impact, then if there are active negotiations with a hotel operator, that's information the MAPS 3 committee and city council need to know in order to assist in prioritizing projects.

And if they know, then it would be public knowledge.

In the past, such negotiations have been hinted at and I'm quite sure if they had anything promising in the works, they would promote that as well. Rather, I suspect they aren't very far along in this area which is why there hasn't been much other than very vague references.

No your point is taken. You are of the opinion it is hopeless. OKC will never be successful in the market. We cannot compete. Let us save ourselves into prosperity.

It always amazes me the people who think we can make this a great city by crawling in a hole. If we don't built it, they won't come. If we make it a crappy place to live we won't have to build streets and schools for all those people who might move here either.

Again, we are either in the game, or not. Agree! As I always say, the inhabitants of a city is what makes a city successful, vibrant and alive. The biggest problem I had when living in OKC was the residents for the most part just did not believe in their city. I saw a huge complacency and lack of pride. I was guilty of this as well. Now that OKC is evolving, I strongly believe the city does need a new CC along with a signature hotel for convention business. If the residents continue saying, it will never work, I just don't see this happening in OKC? Well, we have whats called a self defeating attitude and as long as one has that mind set then I see this as the biggest setback the city will encounter.

The CC has to have a hotel to be competitive, and they have to open at the same time, period. That's the nature of the business these days. Sure it's currently being discussed behind the scenes. Has there been "general diuscussions with potential developers? Heck yes, and long ago. The City had to do that to have some idea on feasibility and potneial interest given the current hotel market.

That's partially why Cathy O'Conner has changed to her new position. She'll be the mastermind behind it will be my guess. Shadid and White are right, the public does not know the whole story becasue if they did, they would have voted down MAPS III........and MAPS II........and MAPS I. It's business. Is there there any business that tells all the peeps up all the way down the ladder what they are contemplating from day to day? The answer is no. Our city leaders, as a whole, have thier vision set for the greater good for this city. The typical voter usually can't see the big picture, they're often only concerned if there's a pot hole on the way to their employer and back home. We all talk to those peopole every day at work and even in our own family. I know I do. They often don't have any vision, they're naysayers on any type of progress if it does not directly and immediatley impac them. But afterwards, they say, "Hey, that's pretty cool" and you can ask them, "didn't you think the canal was stupid idea back in 93 and no way in hell a canal would succeed? Didn't you think there was no way in hell OKC would get a pro sports team? Didn't you say there was no way our jacked up schools would improve all their dilapidated buildings, on and on.....

Anyway, the hotel will need public money, that's a fact and the City knows it. Remember the Skirvin? Hear many complainers? What the City is sweating now is how to make the CC hotel happen without the general public freaking out and claiming conspiricies and kickbacks. That's how the market is these days for any city. The City has talked with major national CC hotel developers and the City knows the general numbers it will have to kick in before a developer would even sniff the project, and it is in the $50+ neighborhood. That's not becasue the developer wants more money in their pockets, it's becasue that's how lending instututions and the market is in today's climate.

So, fasten your seat belt, it's all going to start swirling concenring the hotel. And Steve as right, to remain competitive, the Arena will have run it's course in approximately 15-20 years from completion of the current renovation, so the day will come when we will be in the same shoes that Seattle was. Hopefully by then we will have captured a few NBA titles.

Great information and perspective, Lucca.


You should post more often.

I undertand what JTF is try ing to say, most conventions are local/state - Austin's cc calendar already looks like OKC's.

So what competition is OKC expecting to get into that the city isn't already in? OKC is already in the regional rotations and with a new cc we could expect to be in the comp with other Tier 2 cities (??).

Anyways, I agree we need a new cc and the voters did vote for it. But will it really be an economic boon for the city? Other, more attractive cities have tried and built bigger/better facilities than OKC's proposed (I assume) and their calendars look like Austins, which looks like OKC's ALREADY.

The argument that I assume JTF is trying to make, is there may not be a huge need to move the cc ahead in M3 calendar - we need a new cc but we dont need it now nor at the expense of higher scoring M3 projects because the convention business nationwide is in a slump and the ONLY competition would come from getting a big convention - which Chicago, Orlando, and Las Vegas have those sealed; how can OKC expect to compete against those cities when more desirable cities (Denver, KC, Austin) in OKC's league can't. ??

Thank you - that is exactly what I meant. We'll have the nicest convention center in the state and the 2020 schedule of event will look exactly like the 2011 schedule of events, but we will be out $400 million. I guess some people see that as 'winning'.

Thank you - that is exactly what I meant. We'll have the nicest convention center in the state and the 2020 schedule of event will look exactly like the 2011 schedule of events, but we will be out $400 million. I guess some people see that as 'winning'.

Kerry, it's so nice to have your positive input back. We've missed you. LOL

Thank you - that is exactly what I meant. We'll have the nicest convention center in the state and the 2020 schedule of event will look exactly like the 2011 schedule of events, but we will be out $400 million. I guess some people see that as 'winning'.

This seems like the same mentality of the people around the city who don't mow their lawns and let the weeds grow up. What the heck...if you mow it it just grows again, so let's not bother. Who cares of the neighborhood runs down, our kin folk will still come see us, right? They have to, they are related. Well, guess what, when the kids leave the neighborhood and learn you don't have to live with run down and unkempt, they don't come back.

You're right Rover. I'll just wait for all the convention oriented development to come rolling in.

You're right Rover.

Thank you.

If Oklahoma City wants to get serious about the convention & hotel business, we are definitely going to need a large hotel in the neighborhood of 800 - 1,000 rooms. This would allow us to attract much bigger conventions and house them in one structure.

Fifty million would be chicken feed of an investment--a hotel exceeding 800 rooms would definitely make OKC more attractive since we are equal-distant from the east coast to the west cost and smack in the middle of the U.S.A.

If our mayor wants to blow $30 million on moving an OG&E substation; then, why not invest $50 million in incentives on attracting a 30 to 40-story hotel and really go after some first class conventions.

If Oklahoma City wants to get serious about the convention & hotel business, we are definitely going to need a large hotel in the neighborhood of 800 - 1,000 rooms. This would allow us to attract much bigger conventions and house them in one structure.

Fifty million would be chicken feed of an investment--a hotel exceeding 800 rooms would definitely make OKC more attractive since we are equal-distant from the east coast to the west cost and smack in the middle of the U.S.A.

If our mayor wants to blow $30 million on moving an OG&E substation; then, why not invest $50 million in incentives on attracting a 30 to 40-story hotel and really go after some first class conventions.

Because I don't want my tax dollars going to the local government to hand over to private hotel developers. Times are going to get tougher for this country and we'll need to prioritize; we don't need government funding private enterprise to compete with hotels already here and operating without government subsidies. It's amazing how many "conservatives" want the government to act as the stimulus on so many things downtown. We can't afford it.

edit: And I sure can't support the arrogant attitude of government knows best and the backroom deal ways of non-transparency 'for our own good', as proposed by Lucca above. It's that kind of thinking that make people suspicious of everything that comes from City Hall. Sometimes I think this town is as "Good Old Boy" as its ever been - just with different names and faces. But when it's written as boldly as Lucca wrote it - I fear that some will always see local government as their own private sandbox, just using the idiot citizens to pay for it all. In my opinion, it's a shame to see praise for that post and that way of thinking.

We'll see that kind of attitude backfire. While other cities are cutting back on subsidies to business and refocusing on their primary mission, it looks like some want to milk this city dry while we lay off police officers and put them in a building fit for Timbuktu, let go of firefighters, cut back on city parks, let our roads deteriorate and generally forget that there is more to this city than frickin' downtown.

MikeOKC - while I tend to cut local governments a lot more slack than federal governments, there is a lot of truth in what you said. 10 years ago downtown OKC had one hotel. Today it has 7 with two more in various stages of development. I only recall one of them receiving government funding but I could be wrong on that. Now all of a sudden a hotel can only be built if the city kicks in 20%, and we don't even get a restored building out of the deal.

This city didn't get to where it is today by not investing in itself. The competition out there among cities is being brought to a new level.

You guys talk about your tax dollars--I understand where you are coming--that's why Oklahoma City has far outdistanced Tulsa in the last 15 years--Oklahoma City has invested and become more aggressive.

We need to look at alternative methods and ways to attract the facilities that will complement our city and keep us in competition with cities like Nashville, Indianapolis, Austin, Denver, Kansas City, Albuquerque and Phoenix.

This city didn't get to where it is today by not investing in itself. The competition out there among cities is being brought to a new level.

You guys talk about your tax dollars--I understand where you are coming--that's why Oklahoma City has far outdistanced Tulsa in the last 15 years--Oklahoma City has invested and become more aggressive.

We need to look at alternative methods and ways to attract the facilities that will complement our city and keep us in competition with cities like Nashville, Indianapolis, Austin, Denver, Kansas City, Albuquerque and Phoenix.

And I supported many of those things. Downtown needed a big boost - it was dying. But today? Maybe I should just add as an addendum to my earlier post:
Enough Is Enough.

And I supported many of those things. Downtown needed a big boost - it was dying. But today? Maybe I should just add as an addendum to my earlier post:
Enough Is Enough.

This thinking is like the patient who takes medicine until they feel better and then stops. They aren't cured yet, but because they THINK they are better they stop doing what was making them better....until they die.

This thinking is like the patient who takes medicine until they feel better and then stops. They aren't cured yet, but because they THINK they are better they stop doing what was making them better....until they die.

Perfect analogy. I couldn't agree more.

Because I don't want my tax dollars going to the local government to hand over to private hotel developers. Times are going to get tougher for this country and we'll need to prioritize; we don't need government funding private enterprise to compete with hotels already here and operating without government subsidies. It's amazing how many "conservatives" want the government to act as the stimulus on so many things downtown. We can't afford it.

edit: And I sure can't support the arrogant attitude of government knows best and the backroom deal ways of non-transparency 'for our own good', as proposed by Lucca above. It's that kind of thinking that make people suspicious of everything that comes from City Hall. Sometimes I think this town is as "Good Old Boy" as its ever been - just with different names and faces. But when it's written as boldly as Lucca wrote it - I fear that some will always see local government as their own private sandbox, just using the idiot citizens to pay for it all. In my opinion, it's a shame to see praise for that post and that way of thinking.

We'll see that kind of attitude backfire. While other cities are cutting back on subsidies to business and refocusing on their primary mission, it looks like some want to milk this city dry while we lay off police officers and put them in a building fit for Timbuktu, let go of firefighters, cut back on city parks, let our roads deteriorate and generally forget that there is more to this city than frickin' downtown.

Really? Really? I have to disagree with you, Mike. Didn't OKC just restore a number of positions to its police and fire departments.

A city doesn't need to prioritize on a special improvements package tax when it comes to general operations. General operations needs a constant source of funding. MAPS 3 was created specifically for projects to keep the momentum going. Other cities are cutting back because A) They don't have the type of tax laws or tax models to accomplish what we can accomplish here, and/or B) They don't even have a properly functioning government.

Hard times or not, you cannot focus on a single solitary area of operating a city that may or may not have issues. Do that and other components fall behind or fail althogether. Each component of a city has its own funding source.

Our roads are funded by three ongoing GO Bond Issue-funded packages from 2000, 2005 and 2007 that total more that $1 billion. Our schools and parks are funded by GO Bond packages, the state and the federal government. Our police and fire projection is funded by a dedicated .75% sales tax. Dedicated. Meaning it doesn't expire like MAPS.

And let's not forget that the coveted state of Texas is DAMN good at corporate welfare, yet many Oklahomans still salivate over Texas.

Larry, I can't imagine the Oklahoma City Arena being replaced within five years after completion of the renovations. That would be a HUGE waste of money. I don't see why it couldn't last at least twenty years, preferably longer. I don't understand why so many people push for things to constantly be torn down and replaced. As long as the building is upgraded and remodeled every five to ten years at least, I see no reason to tear it down.


Please show me where someone said an arena should only last 10 years or where the Mayor said it would last only 5 years after renovations. There is no way Stern or Cornett said those things. Might want to check you facts, LarryOKC. Arenas should last about 25 years or so. MAPs 4 might be a good time to build a world class arena with the goal of it being completed by around 2030.
So this thread can stay on topic, have responded to the above here: http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=23863&p=442802#post442802

Because I don't want my tax dollars going to the local government to hand over to private hotel developers. Times are going to get tougher for this country and we'll need to prioritize; we don't need government funding private enterprise to compete with hotels already here and operating without government subsidies. It's amazing how many "conservatives" want the government to act as the stimulus on so many things downtown. We can't afford it.

edit: And I sure can't support the arrogant attitude of government knows best and the backroom deal ways of non-transparency 'for our own good', as proposed by Lucca above. It's that kind of thinking that make people suspicious of everything that comes from City Hall. Sometimes I think this town is as "Good Old Boy" as its ever been - just with different names and faces. But when it's written as boldly as Lucca wrote it - I fear that some will always see local government as their own private sandbox, just using the idiot citizens to pay for it all. In my opinion, it's a shame to see praise for that post and that way of thinking.

We'll see that kind of attitude backfire. While other cities are cutting back on subsidies to business and refocusing on their primary mission, it looks like some want to milk this city dry while we lay off police officers and put them in a building fit for Timbuktu, let go of firefighters, cut back on city parks, let our roads deteriorate and generally forget that there is more to this city than frickin' downtown.

Oklahoma City is laying off police and firefighters?

Thats not true, they are currently in the hiring process for both

^^^
True but just restoring the positions they promised wouldn't be cut to begin with if MAPS 3 passed. They have yet to fulfill the promise that the self-admitted shortages in public safety staffing would be addressed if MAPS 3 passed. In other words, a net gain not another "break even philosophy" which is where we are at now. But it is a step in the right direction.

I know for a fact OKC PD is hurting for man power and is wanting to get big class in the next academy, finding quality applicants that can pass through the entire process is a big hang up for a bunch of people. But they are definately trying to add a lot of position here in the near future.

And having gone through fire fighter school I know there is always an ample amount of guys trying out for those positions so the FD gets to pick and choose the best of the best in the area.

This thinking is like the patient who takes medicine until they feel better and then stops. They aren't cured yet, but because they THINK they are better they stop doing what was making them better....until they die.


Perfect analogy. I couldn't agree more.

I suppose it's a good analogy if you want a dependent patient addicted to the medicine. I thought the idea was to get a person up on his own two feet and show him how he can keep himself healthy. In this (silly) analogy, when does the 'patient' ever get well? Or, are we (using your analogy), making the patient diabetic where he can't survive without his medicine (government handouts)? A slippery slope that guarantees every company wanting to do something in OKC will come begging to the government to help finance their enterprise. And this in a 'conservative' city.

Do you think Chicago has quit? They built MilleniumPark and they have museums, an aquarium, an arena and stadiums. Is anyone on this forum suffering because of the penny sales tax? Our city isn't where it should be relative to it's size IMO. Maybe if it gets there we can slow the public works a bit. Personally however, I like thinking that my penny is improving quality of life for everyone who lives here and I don't want that to stop.

Do you think Chicago has quit? They built MilleniumPark and they have museums, an aquarium, an arena and stadiums. Is anyone on this forum suffering because of the penny sales tax? Our city isn't where it should be relative to it's size IMO. Maybe if it gets there we can slow the public works a bit. Personally however, I like thinking that my penny is improving quality of life for everyone who lives here and I don't want that to stop.

My point is about government subsidies to private business. The taxpayers of OKC have no business handing $20,000,000.00 to a private hotel developer. I think maybe your idea of 'public works' is simply different than mine.

I know for a fact OKC PD is hurting for man power and is wanting to get big class in the next academy, finding quality applicants that can pass through the entire process is a big hang up for a bunch of people. But they are definately trying to add a lot of position here in the near future....

I don't know what this has to do with convention center talk, but I'll continue with it, lol, and say, if other cities here were a little bigger, like, say, Mustang. If it annexed more of OKC into its borders, then there would be more people paying property taxes and sales taxes for Mustang, and then they could have more streets and residents to patrol and take care of. It's things like that that would help OKC. Everyone always talks about the cruddy streets surrounding Mustang. Well, those are the last streets on the OKC ballot as far as bond work goes because it's all about the inner core first. Annex OKC land into Mustang land, and then you can vote those streets in to be repaved.

Do you think Chicago has quit? They built MilleniumPark and they have museums, an aquarium, an arena and stadiums. Is anyone on this forum suffering because of the penny sales tax? Our city isn't where it should be relative to it's size IMO. Maybe if it gets there we can slow the public works a bit. Personally however, I like thinking that my penny is improving quality of life for everyone who lives here and I don't want that to stop.
And what would make it suddenly stop? There were statements implying if MAPS 3 didn't pass, we would somehow revert back 10 years in time. That if MAPS 3 didn't pass, that all development that was/is still ongoing as a result of the original MAPS would suddenly stop. Not saying that MAPS 3 won't spur something along but it is absurd to argue that it will stop if it didn't pass (or proposed to begin with).


And I supported many of those things. Downtown needed a big boost - it was dying. But today? Maybe I should just add as an addendum to my earlier post:
Enough Is Enough.
Sound like he was in agreement with the Mayor sentiments in September of 2009:

"The city is just so fundamentally different from the past MAPS initiatives.”


"I don’t think we’re going to stray too far from what most people would consider the MAPS brand with capital projects and a tax over a specific length of time. But the city is a different place now, and I think the proposal will reflect the changes the city has made.”
There was an article in the Oklahoman (sorry can't locate it now), where the Mayor expanded on the differences between the original MAPS and MAPS 3. That MAPS was about saving OKC and MAPS 3 is simply about "continuing the momentum". Big difference.

I don't know what this has to do with convention center talk, but I'll continue with it, lol, and say, if other cities here were a little bigger, like, say, Mustang. If it annexed more of OKC into its borders, then there would be more people paying property taxes and sales taxes for Mustang, and then they could have more streets and residents to patrol and take care of. It's things like that that would help OKC. Everyone always talks about the cruddy streets surrounding Mustang. Well, those are the last streets on the OKC ballot as far as bond work goes because it's all about the inner core first. Annex OKC land into Mustang land, and then you can vote those streets in to be repaved.
No need for that. OKC will redo the road and then hand it over to the other city.

My point is about government subsidies to private business. The taxpayers of OKC have no business handing $20,000,000.00 to a private hotel developer. I think maybe your idea of 'public works' is simply different than mine.

Just imagine what we would/would not have if there were no incentitives:

No Dell
No Thunder
No new Devon Tower
Tinker could possibly have closed.

And no BassPro!!!:ohno:

And no BassPro!!!:ohno:

No Amtrack, No Remington Park, No National Cowboy Hall of Fame, No OKC Zoo

There was an article in the Oklahoman (sorry can't locate it now), where the Mayor expanded on the differences between the original MAPS and MAPS 3. That MAPS was about saving OKC and MAPS 3 is simply about "continuing the momentum". Big difference.

Larry, there is a difference but not a "big" difference. If you're not continuing momentum you're going backwards.

But that was my point. We ARE continuing momentum. Development is STILL going on from the first MAPS (almost 20 years later). Successful development leads to other development. Now if Devon Tower were to suddenly go dark that could definitely put things in neutral or reverse, but something sort of that, I just don't see it happening. Even with the economic factors that OKC largely avoided (relatively speaking), it killed a proposed project or two but we are starting to see the ones that were put in suspended animation, come back.

Larry, there is a difference but not a "big" difference. If you're not continuing momentum you're going backwards.

I think Larry said it well before me, I just wanted to say that I don't think government handouts equate to "momentum." And that's what we're talking about here with this hotel. A $20,000,000.00 giveaway must not be construed as the only way we can continue the "momentum." Tax dollars to private business to help capitalize their private endeavors maybe had its place to jumpstart progress, but I fail to see how (to follow the analogy a few posts back) "continuing the medicine" does anything but addict the patient. Local government was never meant to be a piggy bank for hoteliers. The local stimulus that the people of this city provided with MAPS is enough. If business can't figure out how to make it from here without more handouts, then something is wrong with the whole idea of free markets. It either works - or it doesn't. It's funny how so many "conservatives" have accepted that the free market simply won't work in downtown Oklahoma City and that any "momentum" connected with anything private still requires giveaways. I appreciate the other argument, I just fundamentally disagree.

I think Larry said it well before me, I just wanted to say that I don't think government handouts equate to "momentum." And that's what we're talking about here with this hotel. A $20,000,000.00 giveaway must not be construed as the only way we can continue the "momentum." Tax dollars to private business to help capitalize their private endeavors maybe had its place to jumpstart progress, but I fail to see how (to follow the analogy a few posts back) "continuing the medicine" does anything but addict the patient. Local government was never meant to be a piggy bank for hoteliers. The local stimulus that the people of this city provided with MAPS is enough. If business can't figure out how to make it from here without more handouts, then something is wrong with the whole idea of free markets. It either works - or it doesn't. It's funny how so many "conservatives" have accepted that the free market simply won't work in downtown Oklahoma City and that any "momentum" connected with anything private still requires giveaways. I appreciate the other argument, I just fundamentally disagree.

I find your debunking of the medical analogy an interesting exposure of your mind set. Like you assume we are creating junkies by offering insulin to diabetics, or blood pressure medicine to hypertensives.

I think some people are out of touch with what is actually happening to get deals done in the world and also think everyone in the world thinks as highly of OKC as we do ourselves. Because we are making progress doesn't mean we have arrived. Being competitive is still a requisite.

I also find it laughable that that people object to "handouts" yet have no clue how many companies in OKC are actually assisted in one way or another. I worked for many years for a manufacturing plant that moved to OKC with the help of bond monies that built their factory and put hundreds to work. Now, I guess the difference is that they aren't a "hotel", so it is justified. People get myopic I guess, and only consider the good "handouts" as ones they either don't know about or ones they benefit from.

Trust me, if OKC is such a slam dunk economically then the hotels won't need or want the handout. They don't want strings attached either. But if there aren't developers who come forward and we intend to compete, we will have to offer incentives. It is done every day.

Rover,

To a certain degree the junkie analogy is appropriate. It was Bennett's experience and expectation that significant public subsidy was a given and as he put it "appropriate". It was that way when he was involved with the RedHawks. It was that way with every NBA team he had been involved with (Spurs/Hornets/Sonics).

What you say is all well and good IF the "strings" are left in place, but seems that the strings are cut, the employer doesn't have to live up to their end of the agreement and the debt is "forgiven" (Dell is a case in point). Then they engage in revisionist history and claim the terms of the deal were met (when the City's own site indicates otherwise). Now I can't speak definitively if Dell is an isolated case or the norm.

Then you have the case where the strings appear to be very one-sided (as with the Thunder lease). Seems all of the requirements are on the City side of the deal. At least from reading the multi-page Letter of Intent several times and the actual Lease Agreements, that seems to be the case.

We were told that City paid for NBA Practice Facilities are just "expected" and that taxpayer subsidized arenas are the norm. While they may be expected or wanted, they aren't required. Can't speak to the percentage of public financed Practice Facilities, but when it came to NBA arenas, while it is true that the vast majority had some level of public subsidy, it was fairly evenly split with those that were above/below the 50% threshold with about the same number of arenas that had 10% or less in public financing as those that had at least 90% (with OKC being added to the 100% list). Some arenas had ZERO public financing. Even Denver's arena (which Bennett was using as a model for his new Seattle arena demand was only 3% public financed. on one hand the owners claim that Arenas are a slam dunk for Cities and if that was the case, then owners should be climbing all over themselves to build their own facilities where they can rightfully reap all of the revenues. Yet Bennett doesn't think an arena can be run at a profit (I have the article), so he doesn't want to pay for it. Laughable part about that is that the Ford runs at an operational profit (but due to concerts more than anything else). When it comes to the NBA, the Ford is "break even" operationally (with an ever so slight profit). But Bennett wants to sit back and get revenue from a building they didn't build, pay for the improvements etc. Perfect example is naming rights. Not only for the arena but the practice facility.

Then there is the case of Bass Pro where we were given the same "we have to do it to be competitive" line and reporting at the time stated that the Tulsa area got theirs without the same incentives. Just as the Thunder was shrewd in their contract writing, Bass Pro made sure that that the non-compete, only one location in the state clause was removed from the OKC deal.

I hope you are correct and we won't be expected to come up with the $50MM (mol) that has been floated about. Hopefully it can come down to the City just providing the land or some other non-cash incentive. How many of the 7(?) DT hotels have received that kind of cash incentives to build were they did? I know of the Skirvin but that was a unique deal that if the City had not been involved, would have most assuredly met the fate of the wrecking ball. But I agree that most businesses do get some form of incentives.

Case in point is the Outlet Mall where a rebate of sorts is going to be given to the Mall's owners on their marketing expenses and/or sales tax revenues (sorry don't have all of the details handy right now)

Who owned the factory that was built with the bond money? Are they still here and providing jobs? Or did they take the money and run (immediately or after a few years)? Am thinking along the lines of state tax credits that are routinely sold to others and the company folds and leaves the state high and dry (Great Plains Airline). Or the MG plant deal that was supposed to be happening down in Ardmore(?)

I find your debunking of the medical analogy an interesting exposure of your mind set. Like you assume we are creating junkies by offering insulin to diabetics, or blood pressure medicine to hypertensives.

I think some people are out of touch with what is actually happening to get deals done in the world and also think everyone in the world thinks as highly of OKC as we do ourselves. Because we are making progress doesn't mean we have arrived. Being competitive is still a requisite.

I also find it laughable that that people object to "handouts" yet have no clue how many companies in OKC are actually assisted in one way or another. I worked for many years for a manufacturing plant that moved to OKC with the help of bond monies that built their factory and put hundreds to work. Now, I guess the difference is that they aren't a "hotel", so it is justified. People get myopic I guess, and only consider the good "handouts" as ones they either don't know about or ones they benefit from.

Trust me, if OKC is such a slam dunk economically then the hotels won't need or want the handout. They don't want strings attached either. But if there aren't developers who come forward and we intend to compete, we will have to offer incentives. It is done every day.

Well, I hate it that you can't just see that we disagree as opposed to portraying me as ignorant and someone who simply is "out of touch." There's no need for that.

You misread my "mindset" comparing the insulin to addiction. My point in that post was that insulin is forever. And that's what it looks like we're headed. The addiction point kicks in when someone is given benzos or some such drug and needs the drug (or at least wants the drug) without any plan to wean them off of the drug (city handouts). If I didn't explain that well earlier, I am sorry - I would never construe insulin and diabetes with being a junkie. That doesn't even make sense. But the analogy that was thrown out in a post about the city being on medicine and to stop now would "kill the patient" was a false analogy as any business coming here doesn't need insulin - but they sure seem to be addicted to benzos.

There may have been a need for a massive injection to jumpstart progress downtown - and we did that. I just fundamentally disagree that it's a good idea to keep on doing that ad infinitum until it is "just expected" (see Larry's post before mine). I remember very well the opposition to the original MAPS saying the city's so-called "temporary" tax hike was a lie and that city leaders knew it. Well, for better or worse, who was right? (I supported the original MAPS, by the way). But the opposition was right as per the tax hike. Now, it seems to be accepted with all the "it's just a penny" talk. The fact is - it's become a permanent tax to use as a feeding trough for private business and I just think that's wrong. We just disagree.

Well, I hate it that you can't just see that we disagree as opposed to portraying me as ignorant and someone who simply is "out of touch." There's no need for that.

You misread my "mindset" comparing the insulin to addiction. My point in that post was that insulin is forever. And that's what it looks like we're headed. The addiction point kicks in when someone is given benzos or some such drug and needs the drug (or at least wants the drug) without any plan to wean them off of the drug (city handouts). If I didn't explain that well earlier, I am sorry - I would never construe insulin and diabetes with being a junkie. That doesn't even make sense. But the analogy that was thrown out in a post about the city being on medicine and to stop now would "kill the patient" was a false analogy as any business coming here doesn't need insulin - but they sure seem to be addicted to benzos.

There may have been a need for a massive injection to jumpstart progress downtown - and we did that. I just fundamentally disagree that it's a good idea to keep on doing that ad infinitum until it is "just expected" (see Larry's post before mine). I remember very well the opposition to the original MAPS saying the city's so-called "temporary" tax hike was a lie and that city leaders knew it. Well, for better or worse, who was right? (I supported the original MAPS, by the way). But the opposition was right as per the tax hike. Now, it seems to be accepted with all the "it's just a penny" talk. The fact is - it's become a permanent tax to use as a feeding trough for private business and I just think that's wrong. We just disagree.

I agree that we just disagree. I am sorry if my portrayal was that you are ignorant. I certainly don't think that is the case. However, I do believe this city has a chance to either compete or not. If we are willing to go back to the days in OKC where we chose to do nothing to compete and that is what we are about, then so be it. Subsequent to those decades, unfortunately we have found out the cost for catching up is high. If we have truly arrived at the top of the heap that some on here think then this discussion is a mute point...we will get a prominent hotel developer to develop an appropriate hotel designed for conference use as a core piece to the city. In fact, if we are where some think we will have several bidding on it. OR, we will have another Hampton Inn with window air-conditioners and hot plate breakfasts for our convention center hotel and that will define what our city is about...cheap, functional and little else.

The west side of the CC would make much more sence... Everthing must go West!!! I want to know what developer is buying the property at 500 block of SW 3rd I had a commercial realtor drop a hint of a buyer buy would not tell me . Any info.. he said it was going to be big..

Well since you know that the developer is dealing with a commercial realtor, it could be for office development...

I wonder why we can't put the hotel on top of the convention center. If it's only going to be two stories, why not go up even more?

I agree Betts, instead of thinking flat, they should go up, OKC can change the game with this convention center, and make it unique from traditional convention center architecture.

We need to build the hotel "flat" too... spread those 800 - 1000 rooms all over the CBD...great infill projects!! (I kid)

Up, up, up!

Developer: Building hotel by convention center poses challenges
By Brian Brus
Journal Record
Oklahoma City reporter - Contact: brian.brus@journalrecord.com / 405-278-2837 / https://twitter.com/JRBrianBrus
Posted: 09:08 PM Friday, November 4, 2011

OKLAHOMA CITY – The success of the new convention center promised in the voter-approved MAPS 3 tax issue will rely heavily on access to a hotel nearby, developer John D. Williams said.

He said an appropriate hotel will cost about $150 million – well over half the price of the convention center’s price tag of $252 million. City leaders said big names in the hospitality industry have already started inquiring about development.

“The convention center hotel is the big elephant in the room, so to speak,” Williams recently told attendees at the Greater
Oklahoma City Chamber’s annual Breaking Through Luncheon. “To make a convention center work, you need a large hotel adjacent to it. … And here’s a staggering number: To build a 600-room hotel, with the appropriate meeting space, garage, public areas and all that stuff, runs about a quarter of a million (dollars) a (room) key.

“So it’s going to be a tricky thing to get a 600-room hotel built in Oklahoma City,” he said. “But absolutely, positively, we must do this.”

Mayor Mick Cornett has said that during preliminary planning for the MAPS 3 package of infrastructure projects, city officials expected a hotel would be developed near the convention center. However, the hotel itself was not part of the $777 temporary tax issue and was infrequently cited in public discussions. Councilman Ed Shadid has since raised questions in his first year in office about a 2009 study commissioned by the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber that said the convention center would need about 650 rooms in a hotel nearby to be successful, and that such a project would require public subsidies of about $50 million.

A citizen advisory board decided this year that the convention center should be built at the site of a defunct Ford dealership just south of the Myriad Gardens. Williams and others have said that when it’s time for the hotel to go up, it will need to be very near the convention center, and if not directly adjacent then within walking distance. The decision on a hotel site is still at least a year ahead and will depend on the creative input of designers and interested developers.

“Proximity is important,” said Mike Carrier, president of the Oklahoma Convention & Visitors Bureau. “I’ve been in this business almost 30 years. I’ve never had a meeting planner tell me that they want a hotel anywhere other than on top of a convention center. If it can’t be on top, they want it attached and adjacent. If they can’t have that, they want it across the street.”

Williams said a hotel of that size and importance would probably be developed by a major player such as Marriott, Hilton, Omni or Starwood and its sub-brands such as Sheraton.

“There have been a number of meetings with various national hotel companies to inform them of what we’re doing, the process that we’ll be going through and things of that nature,” Carrier said. “And there’s interest from all of the major hotel companies. But nothing specific yet that we can discuss.”

The convention center is scheduled to open in late 2018. Carrier said his organization and others involved in the project will start working on hotel development within the next year to 18 months, with a lot of work prior to that.

“There will be discussion with a variety of interests,” he said. “And I’m sure that once we, as a city, let people know that we are moving forward, there will be developers and companies step forward to ask questions.

“Experts and analysts around the country know about markets that are doing well,” he said. “That’s part of the reason we have seen such a significant increase in the number of hotels that we have here.”

Williams said the metro area’s hotel industry has stabilized and is now upbeat after weathering the recession. Oklahoma City alone has 16,000 hotel rooms available on any given night at 154 properties, he said. The Sheraton downtown is the largest, with nearly 400 rooms. The only hotel now under construction in the market won’t open until January 2013.

Williams said the metro area’s hotel industry has stabilized and is now upbeat after weathering the recession. Oklahoma City alone has 16,000 hotel rooms available on any given night at 154 properties, he said. The Sheraton downtown is the largest, with nearly 400 rooms. The only hotel now under construction in the market won’t open until January 2013.

Maybe this just wasn't stated the way he meant because the Biltmore with 506 rooms is OKC's largest. I'm guessing he meant the Sheraton is the largest located downtown.

So they're trying to tell us that the Convention Center Hotel won't be as big as speculated or am I misunderstanding?

So they're trying to tell us that the Convention Center Hotel won't be as big as speculated or am I misunderstanding?

Not necessarily, MDot. It's just that the cost may be more than some thought.

Not necessarily, MDot. It's just that the cost may be more than some thought.

Ahhh. I wasnt't thinking of it in that sense because of how greedy the city can be sometimes or how they actually don't have enough money to build something as nice and/or big as it was hyped up to be.

Ahhh. I wasnt't thinking of it in that sense because of how greedy the city can be sometimes or how they actually don't have enough money to build something as nice and/or big as it was hyped up to be.

No, MDot. It's not about the city being greedy. It's about getting what is necessary to assure that the convention center is successful. And nobody knows for sure at this point how it would be funded. It could be totally private, totally public, or some combination of public and private money. There is currently no public money designated for a hotel.

No, MDot. It's not about the city being greedy. It's about getting what is necessary to assure that the convention center is successful. And nobody knows for sure at this point how it would be funded. It could be totally private, totally public, or some combination of public and private money. There is currently no public money designated for a hotel.

I wasnt't saying they were being greedy ljbab728, I was saying that's why I didn't consider it because of past circumstances; I get your point, I never misunderstood after your first response. So thanks for explaining though.

Mdot, are you Thunders half brother?

Mdot, are you Thunders half brother?

Haha.. I don't think so.. Maybe..?

Seems like Hyatt, Westin, or Omni would be the logical choice.

I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up being Omni. They have a major presence in the north Texas area, being based just down the highway out of Irving, TX. They also recently completed a few convention center hotel projects in Dallas, Nashville, Atlanta and Ft. Worth. So they seem ambitious in convention center business, moreover it would give them a chance to establish a presence in Oklahoma for the first time.