Thanks Dubya61. cafeboeuf can correct me if I am wrong but I think someone who supports the widely accepted practice of Euclidean zoning (aka urban sprawl) would be call a 'conventionalist'.

Yeah, I'd go with that. A "New Urbanist" would try to move away from Euclidean zoning now.

To me, the convention center debate is less style theory than it is urbanist theory. Doesn't matter what you build, just make sure it fits into the urban fabric correctly...

This could have been put in any one of three different threads... chose this one...

MAPS 3 Timeline Photos | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=511205078943695&set=a.511205075610362.1073741825.148667761864097)



Consultants from the MAPS 3 Downtown Park, Convention Center and Modern Streetcar projects have been
meeting together on a regular basis along with additional consultants and City staff in order to coordinate efforts.

The three projects will be located within close physical proximity and will have an impact on each other.


http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/529271_511205078943695_1963733104_n.jpg

See, they're all working together, staring at maps. No doubt Larry insisted upon this! :wink:

And it doesn't look at all like a staged photo (/sarc) :wink:

But this is good to see. Those guys really do need to coordinate their efforts.

Is that a model of the 'mystery tower' sitting on the map adjacent to the park?

Doesn't matter what you build, just make sure it fits into the urban fabric correctly...

Seriously? You would invest money using that philosophy?

Is that a model of the 'mystery tower' sitting on the map adjacent to the park?

It doesn't look like the Devon Tower...

It is probably the cc hotel.

The smaller blue building looks more like the CC Hotel.

Upon closer inspection - I think the tall one is Devon and I think UnFrSaKn is right about the blue one.

If the Blue is the convention hotel and the tan is Devon then the only way that orientation makes sense is if they're looking at the cox site for the hotel.

Now, they're models, so I'm sure they can be moved around, but it would at least be a positive sign that they're genuinely considering the option.

The smaller blue building looks more like the CC Hotel.

Maybe Captain Ponny tail on the right can tell us...

I am pretty sure the blue piece as photographed is not oriented on a location, but rather it is sitting off of the map.

If the Blue is the convention hotel and the tan is Devon then the only way that orientation makes sense is if they're looking at the cox site for hotel.

I think the blue building is still on the old Ford dealership site, it's just looking north & the gap between it & the Devon Tower replica is the Myriad Gardens. That or like Anonymous said, it's off the map.

Ah....discussion without context or facts. They were probably standing around trying to figure out whether to order lunch in or go get something. Gotta love it.

Pretty sure we know what they are considering for locations based on the last releases. The most encouraging thing is confirmation that the various entities are communicating and aren't the total boobs some think.

If the Blue is the convention hotel and the tan is Devon then the only way that orientation makes sense is if they're looking at the cox site for the hotel.

Now, they're models, so I'm sure they can be moved around, but it would at least be a positive sign that they're genuinely considering the option.

If those are the buildings the hotel couldn't be on the cox from that lay out

View south of the Myriad Gardens from Devon Tower:

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/66724_646503012032875_1157360147_n.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=646503012032875&set=a.370973272919185.111033.153146858035162)

Nice and empty looking. :(

The Convention Center and new park will help this view tremendously, thank goodness.

If those are the buildings the hotel couldn't be on the cox from that lay out

If that T intersection were Robinson/California it could be. But I agree, it looks like the hotel is off the map.

This could have been put in any one of three different threads... chose this one...

MAPS 3 Timeline Photos | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=511205078943695&set=a.511205075610362.1073741825.148667761864097)

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/529271_511205078943695_1963733104_n.jpg

See, they're all working together, staring at maps. No doubt Larry insisted upon this! :wink:


Only one person under 50 making decisions? I am scared! We need some young people with fresh ideas in there. Otherwise we will get more of the Sandridge Urban Design.

Only one person under 50 making decisions? I am scared! We need some young people with fresh ideas in there. Otherwise we will get more of the Sandridge Urban Design.

haha. That "meeting" looks like it was painful as hell to attend. They do need some young blood there.

This could have been put in any one of three different threads... chose this one...

MAPS 3 Timeline Photos | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=511205078943695&set=a.511205075610362.1073741825.148667761864097)



http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/529271_511205078943695_1963733104_n.jpg

See, they're all working together, staring at maps. No doubt Larry insisted upon this! :wink:

Wouldn't it be cool if someone could Photoshop in some thought bubbles indicating what is really going on in their minds? =)

Wouldn't it be cool if someone could Photoshop in some thought bubbles indicating what is really going on in their minds? =)

Like this?

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/fun_zps8626e004.jpg

Outstanding!!!! =)

Your having way too much fun!

View south of the Myriad Gardens from Devon Tower:

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/66724_646503012032875_1157360147_n.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=646503012032875&set=a.370973272919185.111033.153146858035162)

Nice and empty looking. :(

The Convention Center and new park will help this view tremendously, thank goodness.

I fail to understand how blocking off organic development flowing south from downtown will help this view one iota. I have yet to see any reassurance that this convention center won't be another Cox Center that suffocates everything south of it.

View south of the Myriad Gardens from Devon Tower:

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/66724_646503012032875_1157360147_n.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=646503012032875&set=a.370973272919185.111033.153146858035162)

Nice and empty looking. :(

The Convention Center and new park will help this view tremendously, thank goodness.

It will be interesting to see this same vantage point 5 years from now...

THis area has been such a magnet for downtown development and provided such good lifestyle the last 50 years it is a shame to see it destroyed.

OKC could take a cue from Cleveland. Currently, they are in process of opening a $475 million Medical and Convention Center. The majority of the space will be underground which will intergrate nicely into the frabricate of their downtown. Hopefully, OKC can do something similar to what is being built in Cleveland.

Here is a link to review: Cleveland Medical Mart & Convention Center (http://www.clevelandmedicalmart.com/)

THis area has been such a magnet for downtown development and provided such good lifestyle the last 50 years it is a shame to see it destroyed.

Do you know why it ended up like this?

THis area has been such a magnet for downtown development and provided such good lifestyle the last 50 years it is a shame to see it destroyed.

?

I'm not sure I understand.

?

I'm not sure I understand.

Rover is being sarcastic, the old crosstown cut that part of the city off and it more or less died years ago.

THis area has been such a magnet for downtown development and provided such good lifestyle the last 50 years it is a shame to see it destroyed.

Haha true dat! ;)

It will be interesting to see this same vantage point 5 years from now...

I can't wait to see it!

Would be interesting to see that same area in the photo before MAPS 3 passed...while I am sure it was blighted, were there that many empty lots or did that happen after MAPS 3 passed and the City started buying up the land and clearing buildings (post office and Ford dealership are gone etc)?

OKC Central: A New Concept for the Convention Center | NewsOK Videos (http://newsok.com/okc-central-a-new-concept-for-the-convention-center/multimedia/video/2325293260001)

I like it.

Now, I'm not an engineer, but how would sticking the exhibit halls underground affect the construction cost?

Steve's article that accompanies that video.

Exhibit halls under Hudson Avenue seen as possible answer to Oklahoma City convention center design concerns | News OK (http://newsok.com/exhibit-halls-under-hudson-avenue-seen-as-possible-answer-to-oklahoma-city-convention-center-design-concerns/article/3802939)

I like it.

Now, I'm not an engineer, but how would sticking the exhibit halls underground affect the construction cost?

Me too. Looks really awesome!

That's the best design so far.

I am having a hard time figuring out what the hell the Convention Center subcommittee is doing. Maybe they need to spend more time on THEIR project and a little less time worrying about the MAPS timeline, the streetcar, and the park. I thought the plan has always been to put the exhibit space underground and I thought the 3 designs released last month showed that. The loading docks were certainly underground.

How is it that Populous proposed 3 designs that were apparently soundly rejected by the subcommittee? Didn't the subcommittee communicate their vision with Populous before they started designing stuff? I am also more than concerned that an offer for the property is still 60 days out. The subcommittee has been going on for how long and spent how much money already, to get 3 designs that aren't even usable, for land they don't even know if they can buy yet. If this was taking place on any other MAPS committee I think we would see a house cleaning of the membership.

I would like to think the subcommittee has had some level of discussion as to the price of the land, but hell, I would have also thought they were talking to the people designing the convention center.

I am having a hard time figuring out what the hell the Convention Center subcommittee is doing. Maybe they need to spend more time on THEIR project and a little less time worrying about the MAPS timeline, the streetcar, and the park.

I vehemently disagree. Committees getting tunnel vision on their own project is how we ended up tearing up downtown streets twice in a matter of a few years (Project 180 and MAPS Streetcar) and costing taxpayers a ton of cash. I really appreciate it when people in charge of MAPS implementation
take a holistic view of things.

First: The change here is that the underground exhibit halls are shifted to go under Hudson Avenue to allow for more open space on the block.
Second: There were concerns about the loading docks coming in at any side of the convention center as this would then key that as the less desirable facade. What would that less desirable facade face? The Myriad Gardens? The new park? The arena? Hudson Avenue? What they're doing is they are setting it up now where the loading dock goes down underground off the block west of Hudson. That's the change.
Third: Both of these details are in my story.
Fourth: I've not heard the subcommittee mention the streetcar system at all in the several months. They're under the assumption the two will come together, and they've left that discussion up to the streetcar subcommittee.
Fifth: I never reported the three other concepts were soundly rejected. I reported that they didn't get much enthusiasm from the subcommittee, and also, they were not pitched as final concepts (as I reported in my story earlier this month).
Sixth: This is how public projects are designed (and keep in mind, this is not architectural at this point). You have designers come up with multiple concepts to see what best meets the community's needs. Then, out of that initial response, yet another design is created unless one of those first concepts is an absolute home-run.
Seventh: There is no difference in this subcommittee proceeding with plans for a project as acquisition is being done anymore than with the transit subcommittee making plans for the Santa Fe train depot or the river subcommittee making plans for the whitewater rapids while some of that property must be acquired as well.


Just the Facts, I know you're very passionate about OKC, and I hope my response isn't taken as being argumentative. But you've been greatly misinformed, and I think it's important you have just the facts...
:)

These are the from the consultants... Shows the latest concept.

I agree, this is the best alternative I've seen so far and really like how the hotel brings life to Robinson:

http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/urban-development-buildings/3665d1366899099-convention-center-hotel-cc42513b.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/urban-development-buildings/3666d1366899100-convention-center-hotel-cc42513a.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/urban-development-buildings/3666d1366899100-convention-center-hotel-cc42513a.jpg

This layout puts the hotel in an orientation that would seem to also serve the Chesapeake arena pretty well. I like that.

Screw it - I give up. Let's build another superblock with 100' setbacks and call it a day.

That is a good concept. I still may like the hotel on the Cox site more.

This hotel is a must-have for balconies regardless of where it goes.

That is a good concept. I still may like the hotel on the Cox site more.

This hotel is a must-have for balconies regardless of where it goes.

I agree with Anonymous in that I still think the hotel on the Cox site is probably still my preferred option, but what was written about today is the best of the other options in my opinion.

great location for the CC hotel

I agree, this is the best alternative I've seen so far and really like how the hotel brings life to Robinson:


This layout puts the hotel in an orientation that would seem to also serve the Chesapeake arena pretty well. I like that.

Yeah, this one seems to integrate well and improves on what's already there. You walk out of the hotel and you're facing bricktown and the arena. This is also the first time that the new "entrance" to the arena doesn't look the back door.

Steve's article that accompanies that video.

Exhibit halls under Hudson Avenue seen as possible answer to Oklahoma City convention center design concerns | News OK (http://newsok.com/exhibit-halls-under-hudson-avenue-seen-as-possible-answer-to-oklahoma-city-convention-center-design-concerns/article/3802939)


a study of cities that compete with Oklahoma City for convention business shows most of them do not have hotels attached to the conference centers.

This is key, imo. Getting the hotel deal done now sounds like the most important part to me and justifies the expense of building a new convention center. Sounds like it is the element that will make the difference and create a competitive advantage over at least the cities with which we are currently competing.

I wonder if moving the substation is going to sound like the fiscally responsible option when this all falls out.

I wonder if moving the substation is going to sound like the fiscally responsible option when this all falls out.

lol it will be interesting to see how much this all cost in the end

I wonder if moving the substation is going to sound like the fiscally responsible option when this all falls out.

This is why I have to stop getting so worked up over this whole thing. The CC isn't going on the Ford site anyhow.

The article quotes the OCURA head as saying they will be making an offer to the Ford site owners within 60 days.

Screw it - I give up. Let's build another superblock with 100' setbacks and call it a day.

A convention center is one option, when done well, that doesn't need a building at the street. Give convention goers the opportunity to spill outside. It works to convention-planners' advantage.

I actually love this design but I think by 'splitting the difference' with the CC portion on the west side, you lose an opportunity to give the hotel and CC both a magnificent public space. I'd push the CC west to the street, give it great street interaction. Between the two, I'd give the Myriad Gardens, Central Park, and P180 designs over to Populous and ask them to come up with a public space that really ties it all together. In fact, that space is perfect for a very large, focal point. Perhaps a very large statue or something to really draw people down south through this new public space and into the new park.


Tornado fountain?

http://www.dvice.com/sites/dvice/files/styles/blog_post_media/public/images/whirlpoolfountain.jpg

Plasma globe on a massive scale?

http://monroenews.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com/img/photos/2012/12/26/Michigan_Science_Cent_Somi_t670.jpg?b3f6a5d7692ccc 373d56e40cf708e3fa67d9af9d

I actually love this design but I think by 'splitting the difference' with the CC portion on the west side, you lose an opportunity to give the hotel and CC both a magnificent public space. I'd push the CC west to the street, give it great street interaction. Between the two, I'd give the Myriad Gardens, Central Park, and P180 designs over to Populous and ask them to come up with a public space that really ties it all together. In fact, that space is perfect for a very large, focal point. Perhaps a very large statue or something to really draw people down south through this new public space and into the new park.
+1
You addressed my 2 concerns. 1) A great public space people wanted to visit instead of a depressive alley only for connectivity. 2) street interaction not only during a convention.
We voted for a place not a building. To be continued

I actually love this design but I think by 'splitting the difference' with the CC portion on the west side, you lose an opportunity to give the hotel and CC both a magnificent public space. I'd push the CC west to the street, give it great street interaction. Between the two, I'd give the Myriad Gardens, Central Park, and P180 designs over to Populous and ask them to come up with a public space that really ties it all together. In fact, that space is perfect for a very large, focal point. Perhaps a very large statue or something to really draw people down south through this new public space and into the new park.

OK, I take back my setback opinion. You're right, put the building closer to the street and create the space in between. I know many conventions have a big opening party or meet-and-great and often they like it to spill outside. This would be a perfect place - in between the convention and the main hotel.

2 questions:

1. Are the yellow colored portions of the CC retail, as was "planned" in the first 3 schemes?

2. If this indeed is the option that we select and more or less build out, what would be the building limitations on the northern portion of the 2 blocks to the west of the CC? How tall could a developer build, how expansive, etc?

I am not knowledgeable in these types of projects, but why couldn't some small retail spaces line the ground level of the convention center? Think if there was maybe a coffee shop, a deli, and a sports bar that were accessible internally for convention participants and externally for the general public. If creating a dead space is a concern then why not add something to at least mitigate this. There are probably good reasons why this isn't being considered or doable...

I think this is being considered and maybe even is the preferred direction they want to go.

That's good to hear. A high quality sports gastropub that catered to Thunder fans, but also had something (e.g., quality food) to offer the downtown community could be a big hit and add a lot of life to the area.