Well, thecains, we kinda knew that a long time ago, but thanks for the info. Tulsa's metro has always trailed OKC's metro by around 200,000, although the gap is widening between Tulsa and OKC proper. OKC is estimated to have 533,530 residents, Tulsa is estimated at 387,000.

yeah, in the latest census estimate I think Tulsa's population actually went down

But, I think of Omaha more like a sister city...Just from my views when I go up there...which is about twice a year..

-Paul

Yes. But Oklahoma's last three fastest growing cities have been Tulsa suburbs.

I can guarantee Tulsa isnt going down in population......they are around 150,000 people shy of being the same size as us....

I go to Tulsa at least 1 time a month and can tell you in the southern parts of Tulsa it seems like it is outgrowing us (broken Arrow, Jenks, Bixby, Bristow etc..).........

And the downtown area isnt that bad...it is actually quite nice with all the beautiful art deco arcitecture......etc....

I personally think that Tulsa has a TON of potential and hopefully by 2025 it will be showing.

The arena they are building is much, much, much more beautiful than the Ford Center (i actually think the Ford center is ugly and generic)

Hopefully Both cities can work together because BOTH are fine places to be.....

We aren't disagreeing with you, except for the simple fact that Tulsa proper DID lose a small (actually quite large) chunck of it's population.

Can you post a link to this intresting info?

Do I have to? Just look it up in any almanac for me. Or keep nagging us about it, and someone else will.

Tulsa- 393,044
OKC- 506,132

No. You are clearly missing the point. It doesn't matter how many people are in the city RIGHT now. That is as relevant as what color my pants are right now.

Tulsa loosing people = Tulsa had more people 5 years ago than it does now.

Now do you get it?

I would love to see the numbers on that Tulsa metro is growing at a fast pace. OKC metro is not growing any faster than Tulsa now Tulsa has lost population in the city but the burbs are growing faster than ever.

Well, these are all just estimates today anyway, so, even if the estimate says the city of Tulsa has lost people, it's still just an estimate. The estimate right before the last census figured Tulsa's city and metro population by about 5% less than what the census actually found.

I would say the growth in the city has slowed, but houses are still built in the city at a good rate and the hispanic population in the Kendall-Whitter area and east Tulsa is really booming.

Soonerricegrad,
You youself said"the fastest growing towns in oklahoma are in/around Tulsa.

i go to tulsa many time a year and i can GUARANTEE Tulsa isnt getting smaller population wise. as a matter of fact we arent growing any faster that tulsa.........accept it.

One more thing......i think it is unfair to say that OKC is Dallas brother city...Dallas around 2.5 Million

OKC Around 1milion


Its like the yankees compared to the washington nationals.......you simply cant compare the 2.

Errr.... ummn..... Dallas is actually around 6 mil.

Let me lay it out like this... *prostrates self*

A city does not include suburbs. Broken arrow is what we call a suburb. Same as Jenks, Owasso, and any OTHER city nearby Tulsa you can name. A suburb may be groing rapidly, but when you go into the inner city, it can be dead. That is what is going on in Tulsa.

Oh and another thing. (Sorry, Mozilla/Firefox does not able me to edit my posts)

If you can't see through the population dif of OKC & DFW, then you A, need to invision more, and B, take an I.Q. test. Something may be missing. No offense.

Dallas and OKC are veeery simillar. OKC and Fort Worth are also veeery simillar. OKC and DFW are thus, veeery simillar.

It's like this: I hope we can all agree that Norway and Sweden are simillar. Yet Sweden has many, many more people.

Do you get my drift?

whatever you say.....lol

one more question,
Do you ever say anything good about Tulsa

But did you understand it this time?!!!

whatever you say.....lol

I concur. Comparing Oklahoma City to anywhere in Texas is like comparing a hick (Texas) to a socialite. (Oklahoma City)

Wouldn't that be the ol' OKC-Tulsa comparison? Not that I am saying you are a hick...

you are cold.

You kill me. (with laughter)

thecains, you might want to do some research before reaching conclusions. Tulsa is not growing at a faster rate than we are, when you consider the growth rate for the entire metropolitan areas of both cities. A few fast growing cities (they are small, mind you and the growth is based on percentages) doesn't define a "faster growing metropolitan area". Take some of Oklahoma City's suburbs into account. Some of those suburbs, such as Mustang, Piedmont, Tuttle, Blanchard and Newcastle are all growing at about the same rate as Tulsa suburbs. Edmond is still growing tremendously, albeit slower than in decades past.

Northwest Oklahoma City and Southwest Oklahoma City are adding residents as fast as many of these suburbs. In fact, statistically, the Quail Springs area of Oklahoma City is the fastest growing corridor in the state. No one can argue that.

But no one can argue that Broken Arrow, Owasso, Jenks and Bixby, also, are adding residents by the thousands. But Tulsa proper is slowly losing population. That trend, however, may have reversed since the last estimate was made in 2003.

It is important to note, however, that growth in both cities is inevitable, so long as public investment continues. I see Oklahoma City and Tulsa picking up the pace in the years to come. Our sibling rivalry can either be damaging or rewarding, but it depends on the resourceful minds of our residents and leaders.

Truth is, no one is going to win this silly fight. Oklahoma City, nor Tulsa is a winner or a loser. Both cities will grow in their own way and each with their own ideals. Both cities will continue initiating beautification projects, and both will continue to thrive, with or without the rivalry.

You say Dallas and OKC are alike but I know of at least 5 business that have opened up in Tulsa from Dallas and ALL of them have said that they came to Tulsa because it is a just like Dallas but smaller I have NEVER heard anyone campare OKC to Dallas by the way my brother lives in Dallas and down there OKC is know as a hick town and Tulsa is know for more upscale sorry but those are the facts

Why don't you go look in the Dallas forum for me? They do see us as simillar, and they see OKC as booming. I know. I post regularly there.

Your DREAMING you hillbilly

You say Dallas and OKC are alike but I know of at least 5 business that have opened up in Tulsa from Dallas and ALL of them have said that they came to Tulsa because it is a just like Dallas but smaller I have NEVER heard anyone campare OKC to Dallas by the way my brother lives in Dallas and down there OKC is know as a hick town and Tulsa is know for more upscale sorry but those are the facts

I spent about an hour collecting facts and figures.. then Firefox had one of those rare crashes. Gotta love it.

Certain OKC Talk users often complain about my constant demand for facts and figures regarding certain topics, so I figure, here's an opportunity for me to use my powers for the forces of good.

In_Tulsa -- please provide links to at least one business news article, press release, or ANYTHING not on a message board or blog (i.e. from an actual business, not an opinion piece) that refers to OKC as a "hick town". I'd love to see all of these alleged remarks by businesses that somehow were able to fly under our radar. Any evidence would be appreciated.

I did a little research checking out different economic indicators. Tulsa leads OKC by a pretty wide margin in per capita income. However, OKC leads Tulsa in job growth (by number of jobs). The growth figure for OKC is nearly double that of Tulsa. If you look at the population comparisons (about 380K for Tulsa, about 550K for OKC), 2 percentage points of growth for OKC is extremely impressive. Remember, that 2 percentage points in a population of 500,000 is about 10,000 jobs. Very impressive.

As far as the per capita income goes though, you can extrapolate from the data that it's a very real possibility that OKC has just as many citizens in the upper tax brackets as Tulsa. I think we're dragged down by a larger poor population, but as far as spending, etc. goes, we're equal to or greater than (pure speculation on my part, I'll admit, but at least somewhat founded on analysis of the figures).

As far as health, Men's Health had the cities ranked back to back in 2005. I'd post a link, but I don't want to go back and find it. We're around the 18th and 19th (or something around there) fattest cities in the U.S. While Tulsa was ahead of OKC in parks in both number and acreage, OKC beat Tulsa with golf courses and other factors, and as I recall, came out slightly ahead. With the city's next big push under Cornett (more parks and open spaces) watch us to widen that margin in the near future.

But let's talk about culture... OKC has museums and other venues that in my opinion either match or excede anything Tulsa has to offer (although all are worth visiting). Cultural venues off the top of my head -- The OKC Museum of Art, I believe is nicer than the Philbrook Museum, especially with the new glass exhibit. Very impressive. Both occasionally host some nice temporary exhibits. The Cowboy Hall of Fame, in my opinion trums the Gilcrease museum, although, both are very nice. Since MAPS, the Civic Center is as good as or better than the Tulsa Performing Arts Center. I don't think museums are contributing factors as to whether a population is "hick" or not, but they certainly effect the image of the cities. In this case, I'd at least give the comparison between the two cities a "draw".

How about some numbers that really matter though? Education levels of the citizens.

For population 25 years and over in Oklahoma City

* High school or higher: 81.3%
* Bachelor's degree or higher: 24.0%
* Graduate or professional degree: 8.1%
* Unemployed: 5.3%
* Mean travel time to work: 20.8 minutes

Total Population ~ 550K:

That means:

132K with Bachelor's Degree or higher
44,550 w/ graduate/professional degree
29,150 unemployed

http://www.city-data.com/city/Oklahoma-City-Oklahoma.html

For population 25 years and over in Tulsa

* High school or higher: 84.4%
* Bachelor's degree or higher: 28.3%
* Graduate or professional degree: 9.2%
* Unemployed: 5.4%
* Mean travel time to work: 18.6 minutes

Population ~ 390K

110370 with Bachelor's Degree or Higher
35880 w/ graduate degree
21060 unemployed

***

So you can see that OKC does have more individuals with a higher income potential than Tulsa does based simply on sheer population. To call OKC in comparison to Tulsa is simply ignorant.

So your brother (presumably from Tulsa) says that folks in Dallas refer to Oklahoma City as "hick" -- are they cultural experts? Are they qualified to make such judgements? Or do they work at the local Piggly Wiggly? An important question if you're going to take the word of a few of your brother's coworkers as gospel truth pertaining to the "hickness" of Oklahoma City compared to Tulsa.

The numbers seem to bear out another truth -- that the two cities are very comparable, and probably more similar today than they ever have been.

Also, I do agree Tulsa -- comparisons of either of our cities to a city like Dallas is just silliness. We are nowhere even near that ballpark.

In doing so, you are essentially arguing to justify comparison between an apple to a watermelon.

Well, they are both round-ish, and they are both fruits...

You say Dallas and OKC are alike but I know of at least 5 business that have opened up in Tulsa from Dallas and ALL of them have said that they came to Tulsa because it is a just like Dallas but smaller I have NEVER heard anyone campare OKC to Dallas by the way my brother lives in Dallas and down there OKC is know as a hick town and Tulsa is know for more upscale sorry but those are the facts

Very funny. The opinions I hear are different, and believe me, I know a ton of friends and family that live in Dallas. Indeed, they all have mixed opinions, but no one I've spoken with reflects what you have just said. Some believe both OKC and Tulsa are hick towns. Some like Tulsa, some like OKC, but in general, Dallas dogs the STATE of Oklahoma. You want some real facts, In_Tulsa? Dallas treats us better that Tulsa does!!!! I hear more compliments from people visiting from Dallas than I have ANYONE from Tulsa, except my Tulsa relatives.

I dont understand why it seems like everyone in OKC but me are AGAINST Tulsa and love putting it down......my personal opinion, if Tulsa had better city leaders it would be booming over there.

Tulsa is better than OKC in some ways and OKC is better than tulsa in some ways.

Ugh. Grow a brain.

Look at it like this: OKC times 5 = DFW. The city's are very simillar, minus the population and gap. The cosmo that DFW has over OKC comes with it's size, and OKC would be the same if it had 6 mil.

Now do you get it?

are you talking to me?

Look at it like this Tulsa x 5 1/2 is the same size as Dallas. Looks like the same to me.

Can someone close this thread for fear of more confusing malarkey from our brilliant Tulsa friends?

Ugh. Grow a brain.

Look at it like this: OKC times 5 = DFW. The city's are very simillar, minus the population and gap. The cosmo that DFW has over OKC comes with it's size, and OKC would be the same if it had 6 mil.

Now do you get it?

Wouldn't it take OKC and Tulsa together * 5 to be like DFW? I mean, aren't the cities similar distances apart? Maybe a little closer? If OKC and Tulsa could work with the same synergy that Dallas and Fort Worth do, the sky would be the limit!

And really, leadership has some say in the success of a city, but mostly, it's private industry. The government just needs to do its best not to get in the way.

I don't think we could ever merge. It would be like the merging of Palestine & Israel.

I thought it was possible.............. until I saw this thread. Which was doing fine until the Tulsa guys stepped in.

I think Dallas and Ft Worth are like 35 miles apart, not 90+

I wouldnt critisize the Tulsa intelligence....they have better schools than we do......Booker T. Washington for example.

I wouldnt critisize the Tulsa intelligence....they have better schools than we do......Booker T. Washington for example.

Actually, they are very close -- or at least they were in 2003 (the last year the data has been compiled for):

http://www.schoolreportcard.org/CountyMapWeb.asp?usergroupid=8&userstate=42&year=2003

See for yourself. Tulsa does lead in many categories, but not in all. In fact, OKC has 3% fewer dropouts than Tulsa does -- not really a significant difference, but none of them are. Calling Tulsa schools "better" is declaring a winner by analyzing what is subjectively important to academic success, and even then the differences are marginal.

OKC has a strong magnet school program, they send their best and brightest to schools where they can excel. Tulsa has a similar system, but a cursory (and possibly very error prone) evaluation of the scores for the individual magnet schools shows that OKC's program tends to produce better students.

In the ends, it's fair to say that they're about the same. From the data I looked at, there was not one system that was clearly better than the other.

I don't think we could ever merge. It would be like the merging of Palestine & Israel.

I thought it was possible.............. until I saw this thread. Which was doing fine until the Tulsa guys stepped in.

You learned about this in college -- it's called a nonrepresentative sample. Just because a few Tulsans are rude guests doesn't mean that they all are.

They can't be as gracious as you S&R :D

Look at me, I am gracious!

... not really. I am pro Tulsa you are wondering, but I like my OKC more. I think it is possible to merge (*looks around... grabs cain for self defense*) but that would be a very sprawled metro! I don't think Dallas and FW are actually 90 miles apart.

Look at me, I am gracious!

... not really. I am pro Tulsa you are wondering, but I like my OKC more. I think it is possible to merge (*looks around... grabs cain for self defense*) but that would be a very sprawled metro! I don't think Dallas and FW are actually 90 miles apart.

A start would be a few major tourist attractions around Stroud. I do think that we could develop that Turner Turnpike corridor at the very least into something people from both cities could enjoy. In time, (maybe I'm dreaming here) it might be a place to host a major league team of some sort -- maybe 25 years from now.

There's been talk off and on of doing things with Stroud, but action has never followed the words.

Yes, including the airport we proposed with Tulsa. They didn't like that idea.

Stroud is definately the first step, but Tulsa has to take it with us. They won't.

Yes, including the airport we proposed with Tulsa. They didn't like that idea.

Stroud is definately the first step, but Tulsa has to take it with us. They won't.

"They" do not represent the 390,000 or so Tulsans. "They" represent the interests of their airport trust, possibly the interests of our airport trust, as well as local businessmen with strong ties to current operations and aversion to any kind of situation that would force them to take risks to stay on top -- or at least that's my assumption.

If at some point, Tulsa and OKC both have leadership in the right places that want something like that to happen, or private enterprise takes over, then it will happen.

Until then, it won't.

You'd be smart to invest in land in Stroud though. It'll be big someday.

I dont understand why it seems like everyone in OKC but me are AGAINST Tulsa and love putting it down......my personal opinion, if Tulsa had better city leaders it would be booming over there.

Tulsa is better than OKC in some ways and OKC is better than tulsa in some ways.

Now that is the kind of attitude I like to see in an Oklahoman.

thecains, not everyone is against Tulsa. I was never against Tulsa. Many of us just wish they would stop putting us down. No doubt, a lot of people in Oklahoma City enjoy visiting Tulsa. No we don't have the natural scenery you will find around Tulsa, but our city lakes compensate for lack of rolling terrain.

Truth is, after you remove all the bickering, statistics and jargon, a Tulsan who actually enjoys visiting Oklahoma City is hard to come by. We're different, but we're not that different. Many residents in Tulsa have gotten so good at putting down the Ford Center, but they'll never understand the context behind why Oklahoma City just simply wasn't interested in building a landmark arena. The greatest landmark MAPS built was the Bricktown Ballpark. We're building better schools. We're building better neighborhoods. But this is a fact...

No matter what we do, how well we improve and excel, prosper and boom, we'll never be anything to Tulsa.

One thing is for sure, if Tulsa's government and Oklahoma City's government buddied up and formed a coalition, I-44 would be a free interstate.

Worker's comp and tort reform might actually become reality.

Better business legislation would pass like a no brainer.

Our urban highway system in both cities would rival the best in the nation.

And, Oklahoma would have a population of close to 5 million.

okcpulse, I completely agree with you. We don't bash Tulsa. It's the other way around...Tulsa bashes us. I don't think I've ever said anything bad about Tulsa.

Anyways, the thing killing private investment along the Turner Turnpike is the turnpike itself. Gary Richardson was very right there. It's a controlled access highway where you cannot get on and off to visit private businesses. The state turnpike authority restricts private businesses to a few McDonalds restaurants and a few gasoline stations. The solution is to do away with the turnpike altogether and go back to depending on federal funds to maintain the roadway.

One thing is for sure, if Tulsa's government and Oklahoma City's government buddied up and formed a coalition, I-44 would be a free interstate.

Worker's comp and tort reform might actually become reality.

Better business legislation would pass like a no brainer.

Our urban highway system in both cities would rival the best in the nation.

And, Oklahoma would have a population of close to 5 million.

You lost me at tort reform.

But we can argue that one in another thread.

Tort reform is bad for consumers, and nothing more than a handout/political to a broken medical/insurance industry. I'll leave it at that here :)

But let's talk about culture... OKC has museums and other venues that in my opinion either match or excede anything Tulsa has to offer (although all are worth visiting). Cultural venues off the top of my head -- The OKC Museum of Art, I believe is nicer than the Philbrook Museum, especially with the new glass exhibit. Very impressive. Both occasionally host some nice temporary exhibits. The Cowboy Hall of Fame, in my opinion trums the Gilcrease museum, although, both are very nice. Since MAPS, the Civic Center is as good as or better than the Tulsa Performing Arts Center. I don't think museums are contributing factors as to whether a population is "hick" or not, but they certainly effect the image of the cities. In this case, I'd at least give the comparison between the two cities a "draw".



Come on now,
The Cowboy Hall of Fame is superior to the largest and most complete collection of western American art in the world? And that’s just part of the Gilcreace collection? That was a joke right? Your new art center you are comparing to Philbrook? It looks very nice, but start with just the building, Philbrook has one of the most impressive facilities for a museum in the world. The gardens alone are famous. And as for the collections, Philbrook is what four or five times larger than the one OKC? Both Tulsa museums also get touring exhibits. But then they also HAVE touring exhibits from their collections, to other museums. Take a look at Tulsa’s new historical museum, I’d say that looks better than your new art center. It opens in a month a few blocks from Philbrook next to Woodward Park and the Tulsa Garden Center. Look, I’m not knocking what you have there, but you are making comparisons that have no basis in fact. I have not seen your new performing arts center so I can’t comment on that, but the Tulsa PAC is top facility for any kind of production.

And look, if you don’t want to be seen as a hick city change the name of your best museum, the “Cowboy Hall of Fame” and get rid of the giant fishing boat store in your downtown bar district. That’s two very easy changes. And before I get blasted, I didn’t say OKC was a hick city, but those two items really don’t help a city’s image with new visitors.

Questions?
http://www.philbrook.org/DesktopDefault.aspx
www.gilcrease.org
www.tulsapac.com
http://www.tulsahistory.org/

Come on now,
The Cowboy Hall of Fame is superior to the largest and most complete collection of western American art in the world? And that’s just part of the Gilcreace collection? That was a joke right? Your new art center you are comparing to Philbrook? It looks very nice, but start with just the building, Philbrook has one of the most impressive facilities for a museum in the world. The gardens alone are famous. And as for the collections, Philbrook is what four or five times larger than the one OKC? Both Tulsa museums also get touring exhibits. But then they also HAVE touring exhibits from their collections, to other museums. Take a look at Tulsa’s new historical museum, I’d say that looks better than your new art center. It opens in a month a few blocks from Philbrook next to Woodward Park and the Tulsa Garden Center. Look, I’m not knocking what you have there, but you are making comparisons that have no basis in fact. I have not seen your new performing arts center so I can’t comment on that, but the Tulsa PAC is top facility for any kind of production.

And look, if you don’t want to be seen as a hick city change the name of your best museum, the “Cowboy Hall of Fame” and get rid of the giant fishing boat store in your downtown bar district. That’s two very easy changes. And before I get blasted, I didn’t say OKC was a hick city, but those two items really don’t help a city’s image with new visitors.

Questions?
http://www.philbrook.org/DesktopDefault.aspx
www.gilcrease.org
www.tulsapac.com
http://www.tulsahistory.org/

Have you been to either of those two recently? I visited the Gilcrease and Philbrook just last summer. As far as associating "hick" with cowboy, I'd take issue with that. My girlfriend's uncle is a cowboy -- meaning he works with cows. He most certainly is no hick. It wouldn't hurt my feelings if they changed the name of the Cowboy Hall of Fame to something like the "American Western Heritage Museum" or something to that effect.

Exhibit for exhibit, and in terms of impressive exhibits, both have their high points. I particularly enjoyed the Gilcrease colleciton of Remington paintings -- his work is certainly some of the best. I do, however think that the CBHOF also has its share of amazing works like the "End of the Trail" sculpture, and if you haven't seen the mural in their convention room, you're missing out. That thing is in-frickin'-credible.

There are hicks, however that parade around in pink 'mo betta' shirts, elephant skin boots, Wranglers, big buckles, wads of 'baccy in their mouths, etc.. OKC and Tulsa both are awash in such individuals -- as is really the rest of the United States, including the northeast and northwest. We hardly have a monopoly on those types.

The OKC art museum does specialize in different things than the Philbrook. I think it's worth mentioning that although the museum facility and grounds are fantastic, there aren't too many paintings of note there -- in fact, their most notable painting was recently shown to be a forgery (and they have a whole exhibit on how that was determined). The OKC museum has a respectable collection of 20th century artists including Childe Hassam, Renoir (maybe 19th century), Cassatt (def. 19th century) Thomas Moran and others -- much the same as the Philbrook. Also, do not forget the incredible Chihuly glass exhibit, it is truly something to behold. If you haven't made the visit, DO SO!

They will be having a pretty decent collection of 19th century narrative pieces on display for a special exposition from Sept. 8th to Nov.27th. I'd recommend visiting then.

As far as the Bass Pro Shop goes, it brings foot trafic to our Bricktown area. It wasn't my choice of developments either, but it's there, I as a taxpayer am paying for it, so I guess I'm stuck with it. As far as it contributing to the perceived "hickness" of the city, I just don't see it. Your average bumpkin can't afford the things sold in there :D

I think the core of my message is that Tulsa and OKC have comparable facilities. For one to refer to the other as "hick" is in my estimation the pot calling the kettle black.

Again, didn't call anyone, cowboy or not, a hick, I'm talking perceptions. And cowboys certainly have the perceptions nationally as hicks. And it doesn't matter how much you paid for the bass boat, an owner of such a thing is nationally going to be percieved as a hick.

Philbrook has a really nice collection from the renaissance and even some interesting pre-renaissance works. They also have a very good collection of both Native American artifacts and art. Philbrook, unlike Gilcrease, is NOT a world class collection of art, it’s a good one, but the facility is up there with anything. Philbrook’s Native American collection is really superior to any of their art collections. The best general art collections in this region are in Ft Worth and Kansas City. Gilcrease is in their league if not better, but is just so specialized.

As for the other hick thing, I can’t tell you the last time I saw a cowboy hat in Tulsa. I doubt I have in the last six months at least and I don’t even know what a “mo betta” shirt is. The most hick thing I see here are all the fools with "cowboy up" stickers on the back window of a pickup.

"Philbrook has one of the most impressive facilities for a museum in the world."

That is a ridiculous statement. The Philbrook is impressive for Oklahoma, but the world... come on. Have you been out of the country? I have been in many museums all throughout Europe and the Philbrook does not compare. It is a nice museum and the gardens are beautiful. I don't see how you can make the statement that they are famous. Maybe that is the talk in Tulsa.

While I was studying in Italy, my parents moved to Tulsa from Edmond. I have been able to spend a lot more time in Tulsa. I enjoy some things that Tulsa has to offer, but their air of superiority is laughable. Tulsans have a complex, I see it my friends from Tulsa and my dad jokes about his coworkers.

Again, didn't call anyone, cowboy or not, a hick, I'm talking perceptions. And cowboys certainly have the perceptions nationally as hicks. And it doesn't matter how much you paid for the bass boat, an owner of such a thing is nationally going to be percieved as a hick.

Philbrook has a really nice collection from the renaissance and even some interesting pre-renaissance works. They also have a very good collection of both Native American artifacts and art. Philbrook, unlike Gilcrease, is NOT a world class collection of art, it’s a good one, but the facility is up there with anything. Philbrook’s Native American collection is really superior to any of their art collections. The best general art collections in this region are in Ft Worth and Kansas City. Gilcrease is in their league if not better, but is just so specialized.

As for the other hick thing, I can’t tell you the last time I saw a cowboy hat in Tulsa. I doubt I have in the last six months at least and I don’t even know what a “mo betta” shirt is. The most hick thing I see here are all the fools with "cowboy up" stickers on the back window of a pickup.

That is your perception. As for an existing national perception, such would be again, your perception. I guess since you perceive Bass Pro to be a "hick" establishment, it may be safe to assume you've never been? The parking lot tells a story -- this thing is drawing traffic to the area off of the interstate, and from the surrounding region. Hick or not, it's definitely not hurting the tourism industry in Oklahoma City.

As far as Gilcrease being world class, and the "most complete" collection of Western Art, that's a rather questionable claim considering the very nice collections that exist in Dallas and Fort Worth -- they may take issue with that. Even further, I concur with the above poster, it is certainly not "world class". I might call the Smithsonian that, the Prada, Le Louvre, etc., but the Gilcrease Museum? Not a chance.

Never seen a person in Tulsa with a cowboy hat? You obviously don't go to the right places. You seem to be insinuating that they don't exist, would you make the further claim that Tulsa does not have these types of people?

I just don't see it my friend, and the economical/educational statistics I researched above certainly don't bear out that much of a difference between the two cities. OKC boasts more college graduates, more high school graduates, more people with graduate degrees, etc.

Of course, we also have more low wage earners, but that is beside the point. When arguing "culture", you're arguing over a wide variety of variables. When I brought up all of the quantifiable items pointing towards the "culture" of the city, it was conveniently brushed aside as if it didn't exist. Respond to it. Unless you think that the number of bass boats and cowboy hats in a city actually has anything to do with what you and your fellow visitors are alleging.

What Patrick said should become a reality being that we are off that donor list, and actually get bang for our federal dollar. Oklahoma has been as abused by the nation as Tulsa has been abused by the state. :tiphat:

And look, if you don’t want to be seen as a hick city change the name of your best museum, the “Cowboy Hall of Fame” and get rid of the giant fishing boat store in your downtown bar district. That’s two very easy changes. And before I get blasted, I didn’t say OKC was a hick city, but those two items really don’t help a city’s image with new visitors.


Now I agree that you can't beat Tulsa for the arts. And by the way, it is nice to have a Tulsan who actually knows something in here. I was getting bored of people earlier, people that are obviously not as old as they say.

I completely disagree with what I quoted. The Cowboy Hall is A, NOT our city's best museum, or even best art musuem (Fred Jones Museum of Art is, which does excede many other museums, and could compete with the Philbrook) but is B, the national hall of fame for Western Heritage. Cowboy culture is not hick culture. Cowboy culture is not bad culture. You must be thinking of our National Gothic Hall of Fame on 23rd Street. :LolLolLol

I would argue that the Omniplex is also very good. Southwest's best! :tweeted: The National Softball Hall of Fame is also not bad, and nor is the Ed Noble Musuem of Natural Science, but let's not get ahead of ourselves here!

And, there is nothing we can do to get rid of our hick image, b/c it is completely falsiciously based. The Bass Pro is an excellant anchor for Bricktown... something Tulsa or Dallas does not have, and I support more illegally brought ventures like this to come! :fighting3

"Philbrook has one of the most impressive facilities for a museum in the world."

That is a ridiculous statement. The Philbrook is impressive for Oklahoma, but the world... come on. Have you been out of the country? I have been in many museums all throughout Europe and the Philbrook does not compare. It is a nice museum and the gardens are beautiful. I don't see how you can make the statement that they are famous. Maybe that is the talk in Tulsa.

While I was studying in Italy, my parents moved to Tulsa from Edmond. I have been able to spend a lot more time in Tulsa. I enjoy some things that Tulsa has to offer, but their air of superiority is laughable. Tulsans have a complex, I see it my friends from Tulsa and my dad jokes about his coworkers.

Well, let’s see, my grandfather is Canadian, my mother spent her entire childhood in Switzerland, my parents met at the University of Geneva, and later lived in France where I was very nearly born. My grandmother worked as an accountant for the state department stationed for many years in Africa in Libera and the Ivory Coast. My other grandfather and my uncle were both high ranking Air Force officers stationed for many years in Germany. My brother lived in France for a year. I grew up outside of DC and have lived in 6 states and been to many countries. But then, I’ve never been anywhere and don’t know anything compared to what, a 17 year old kid? One who just moved to Oklahoma from Italy and is pissed about living a boring suburban life now?

That would be thecain or Doug.

And there is nothing wrong with a suburban life. Many Americans would be disgusted by a life in France or DC. In fact, DC is the worst place you can find to call home in the US. I bet Africa must be looking very good right now. *not*

And this side argument is very irrelevant. I do miss the good ol' days of OKC Talk. Since I have been back it has been one flame war after another (though I have to side with Midtowner on some of them) but hey, I'm just a guy from Oklahoma. Call me a bumpkin, but this is mighty much.

That is your perception. As for an existing national perception, such would be again, your perception. I guess since you perceive Bass Pro to be a "hick" establishment, it may be safe to assume you've never been? The parking lot tells a story -- this thing is drawing traffic to the area off of the interstate, and from the surrounding region. Hick or not, it's definitely not hurting the tourism industry in Oklahoma City.

As far as Gilcrease being world class, and the "most complete" collection of Western Art, that's a rather questionable claim considering the very nice collections that exist in Dallas and Fort Worth -- they may take issue with that. Even further, I concur with the above poster, it is certainly not "world class". I might call the Smithsonian that, the Prada, Le Louvre, etc., but the Gilcrease Museum? Not a chance.

Never seen a person in Tulsa with a cowboy hat? You obviously don't go to the right places. You seem to be insinuating that they don't exist, would you make the further claim that Tulsa does not have these types of people?

I just don't see it my friend, and the economical/educational statistics I researched above certainly don't bear out that much of a difference between the two cities. OKC boasts more college graduates, more high school graduates, more people with graduate degrees, etc.

Of course, we also have more low wage earners, but that is beside the point. When arguing "culture", you're arguing over a wide variety of variables. When I brought up all of the quantifiable items pointing towards the "culture" of the city, it was conveniently brushed aside as if it didn't exist. Respond to it. Unless you think that the number of bass boats and cowboy hats in a city actually has anything to do with what you and your fellow visitors are alleging.


No, I have never been to a bass pro store, I have no reason to go. I don’t want a boat or a fishing rod. I’ve only seen one Bass Pro store other than driving by the one in OKC on the highway. It was in Destin, Florida and I didn’t go in. I’m sure if I go looking I can find cowboy hats in Tulsa, that’s not the point. I’m sure if I go to the east side or Sapulpa or a country bar, or hell, a Wal-Mart, I can find plenty. I just don’t go to those places very often.

Cowboys do have the image of hicks nationally, if you think that is wrong you HAVEN’T been anywhere. Most people on the coasts have never been hunting, they don’t listen to country music and likely have never even been fishing. Most people live near the east and west coasts. So a Bass Pro is not going to have a lot for them. I don’t really agree with these perceptions, I’m not talking about my feelings, I know some very nice people that I would consider “cowboys”. These being real perceptions doesn’t make them true. I don’t agree with these. There are others I do agree with.

There are other things I see here on this forum that fit with the Oklahoma stereotype that the nation has, like gay bashing, liberal bashing, little racist comments against Native Americans here and there, crappy comments like only Christians can get married, and only reading the bible when polled on favorite books. These could stand some improvement, we as a state and you as a city need to be more accepting of other people than just straight white conservative evangelical Christians.

Oh right, b/c you and the rest of the Tulsans are sooo superior. And I do believe you just said a flying pig. You cannot accuse OUR city of gay bashing, or whatever else. We are a Christian city, not a "Christian" city. Maybe there is a bubba down in Moore that makes gay jokes with his co-workers at the factory in Del City.

The bigot quota is remarkably lower in OKC than it is in Dallas or Tulsa even!

Oh and yes, as a union between two people and god, marriage should be exclusive to religion, b/c that is it's basis, and opening it up just creates hatred and PC, and more bullcrap like gays wanting it too. And that is sacreligious. (sp?)

That would be thecain or Doug.

And there is nothing wrong with a suburban life. Many Americans would be disgusted by a life in France or DC. In fact, DC is the worst place you can find to call home in the US. I bet Africa must be looking very good right now. *not*

And this side argument is very irrelevant. I do miss the good ol' days of OKC Talk. Since I have been back it has been one flame war after another (though I have to side with Midtowner on some of them) but hey, I'm just a guy from Oklahoma. Call me a bumpkin, but this is mighty much.

DC is the worst place in America to call home.

Wow,

Well, I didn’t live in DC, very few people do, but you want to compare metro areas in the nation on anything, DC is going to almost always win, wealth, education, diversity, culture, amenities, level of education, universities, museums, absolutely anything. And even with the blight in many parts of the district, it still is an incredibly beautiful city. Besides being the capital of the US and the political center of the entire world.

Oh right, b/c you and the rest of the Tulsans are sooo superior. And I do believe you just said a flying pig. You cannot accuse OUR city of gay bashing, or whatever else. We are a Christian city, not a "Christian" city. Maybe there is a bubba down in Moore that makes gay jokes with his co-workers at the factory in Del City.

The bigot quota is remarkably lower in OKC than it is in Dallas or Tulsa even!

You are, in particular, one person, of many, who has made racist remarks about native Americans, more than once and you are also, in particular, the person who has made comments about only allowing Christians to marry. You, among most people on this board have made comments that would be offensive to gays. My wife happens to be Native American and you have offended me, I have friends who are gay and many of your comments would be offensive to them.

And Oklahoma City is not a Christian city, this is a secular nation. Period.

You don’t like it, change the constitution.