Oh I get the Depot part, but that doesn't really aid the folks that Doug mentioned, or where UP opined how the streetcars will help in BT, at least not in that context. Tis why I asked if there was an early BT line planned.

Doug referenced the one and only good reason for any more surface parking in BT, the potential for more handicap accessible parking for those whom walking a block or two is the difference in going somewhere in BT or skipping BT completely. Like one or more others, I'd rather more existing spots be reserved for those folk, but that's never going to be my call as a non-resident.

The Depot isn't really going to be of assistance in that type situation. There will still be a hike involved, and some folk can't make the hike.
Walking is not or should not be a big deal for the young and fit folk, and fortunately for me I'm still fairly walkable even though I'm neither young nor fit.

Of course, I suppose they could do a dedicated rubber tire trolly for a few years that simply went back and forth from the Depot to E BT until a regular streetcar could be established..

My understanding is that the next phase won't be very long afterward, but now I understand your point about improving immediate handicap access.

Sorry Kevin Pate. Took a blog break. Presumably, Brictown is probably part of "Phase 1". We are awaiting bridge data on the Sheridan/Reno railroad bridges into Bricktown.

About Handicap Parking/Access. When I brought up the handicap parking matter, please believe me when I say that I was and am not trying to make a big deal about handicapped parking. My wife and I call it "crip" parking, no disrespect to anyone intended. It's merely what we jokingly call handicapped parking spots (recognizing, of course, that we are a pair of crips who are delighted to find such spots very near where we intend to go). She and I have different kinds of health issues and I won't develop those differences here, although I will be more open about my own since I think that it may serve good purpose in understanding some of the kinds of matters that are involved.

About the Practical Impact of Limited Nearby Access For Those With Disabilities. I've already said, mine is an oxygen-related breathing matter. One's brain, and body generally, needs a steady flow of oxygen, and my doctor tells me that one's oxygen level should always be 90 or above. Walking increases one's pulse rate. When one's pulse rate increases, more oxygen is needed to be fed to the brain - "normal" lung capacity ordinarily takes care of that oxygen supply need, but that fact only works for those having "normal" lung capacity. In my case I have a lung capacity of about 60% of what it should be for a person of my age (69 in July). That results in oxygen supply dipping well below 90, into the 80s but sometimes and more rarely into the 70s, and that makes for short walks before heavy panting, sometimes but rarely near debilitation, occurring. This type of thing is much more acute in very cold temperatures I've found. The bottom line is that my lungs just don't have the ability to get out the oxygen juice which is sometimes needed, so to speak.

That's just a fact of life for me -- my doctor tells me that one's lung capacity does not get better, it only stays the same or gets worse -- it is a condition for which I accept responsibility and I'm not looking for and don't want sympathy since it was caused by my personal choice to smoke a ****-load of cigarettes for the past 53 years and, even now, I smoke -- I have never claimed to be a smart person. So, my particular problem is my fault and no one else's. Others, though, don't have themselves to blame as much as I do but their practical mobile and resulting economic consequences are the same as or similar to my own.

For me, as a practical matter I did not renew my 2-year long Thunder season tickets after the 1st 2 Thunder seasons for the simple reason that it was too difficult to get to the arena and I haven't been to a Thunder game since midway into the 2nd half of my 2nd year season ticket period, as crazy as I am about the Thunder. I don't go out on the more ambitious photo shoots that I once did (those that take a fair amount of walking) because of the issue. But, if I can't get from point A to point B as I'd like, I blame no one but myself and am not expecting or asking for any special favors. If I can't handle the amount of required walking, sometimes friends will drop me off as a favor, but that's not something that I think they have a duty to do. If I cannot go where I want without it being easy to get there, most often I just don't go.

My own condition is just a just a fact of life, and one for which I have no angst against anyone. But, that certainly does not keep me from enjoying Bricktown. I haven't gone to a theater other than Harkins for years ... I live in Mesta Park and that's the natural place for me to go ... plus I totally enjoy even just driving around in Bricktown and soaking up its history and being excited about the huge numbers of people I see who are walking the streets, just having a good time. I get a very large amount of pleasure and pride in Oklahoma City by just seeing that vitality and I see myself as being a part of it vicariously. As to the Harkins I've almost always found a spot to park on the west side if I'm patient enough. Leaving the theater to get back to the car is especially easy since one can exist the Harkins through its west-side exit doors right into the crip parking area.

But should I want to get down to the canal area or, say, go to Mickey Mantle's or Nona's (well, Nona's is really not really a good example since Nona's does have valet parking and if one is about to drop $100-$175 or more for a fine dinner for two with drinks, another $10 for valet parking is certainly not a problem), that's harder to do as much as I enjoy walking along the canal.

So, as to the thread topic at hand, I simply said that parking is not a black and white issue, and I intended to say that without any innuendo about what I thought parking "should" be like. "Should be" and "would be nice to have" are 2 entirely different things. If the House of Bedlam's parking plan will facilitate an easier access to the canal for people like me, that's not a bad thing, and that's all I was saying.

Ideas That Help Everyone. Having read through the comments here, other thoughts popped into my head. Yes, a streetcar using what will necessarily be a single route in the immediate but still distant future through Bricktown will help everyone, including those with disabilities. But even that single route will be a long time coming. For those with handicaps, though, access to the areas along the route and those very close to it will be the only areas in which crips will benefit. I hope that I may have demonstrated that by what I've already said. A single streetcar route (and that's all I understand to be on the planning board) is a good development, but it is not a good general solution to general Bricktown mobility (and I'm including Lower Bricktown in this remark). The single streetcar path will most certainly enable people to get INTO Bricktown, but it will be less useful in getting AROUND AND ABOUT Bricktown.

Mobility is the Name of the Game. A Bricktown-dedicated and frequently run rubber-tire trolley with a route which weaves through all of Bricktown's components would probably be much more useful than the streetcar WITHIN Bricktown. One could park in an out-of-walking area, get on the rubber-tire car to get into Bricktown, get off, and on, and off and on again with great ease, and this would benefit everyone and not just for people with handicaps. It would also mitigate against the need for increased parking, generally.

In lesser degree, the same can be said for having two or three publicly owned parking garages strategically located . By the way, in such buildings, no need would exist for handicap parking to occupy all of the 1st floor (as one poster said, probably tongue in cheek), since handicapped people are fully capable of running and using elevators unless their fingers don't work. But, the rubber-tire solution, above, trumps the need for such garages, in my preliminary opinion.

Summary. My purpose in this long and somewhat personal reply is for educational purposes so that those of you who don't have a sense of the handicap problem can get a glimpse into its practical consequences and to give a few thoughts about a Bricktown solution. I don't mind being characterized as the smoking village idiot if what I've said might be helpful in my purposes which are much broader than that. Oh, well, I wouldn't mind that characterization either way.

Van accessible parking is usually best on the first floor because of the height clearance required for vans. When doing parking garages (they are popular with the suburban office buildings in Austin/San Antonio because of impervious cover restrictions) we typically tried to put most of the accessible parking on the first level (ground floor retail was not an issue with most that I did) for that purpose, the more floor-to-floor distance the longer the ramps have to be. Sometimes we did spread out the other (non-van) accessible parking places on other floors next to elevators.

While not disabled (at least physically lol), I think that having a rubber tired circulator is actually overkill to resolve disability issues in Bricktown.

We want people who are capable of walking to actually walk. We want to assist disabled individuals when/as they need assistance. My gut sense is that there aren't enough disabled people going to Bricktown at all hours of the day to warrant a continuously operating rubber tired bus stopping everywhere.

1. I might suggest to you that the streetcar will adequately service the central part of Bricktown via a centrally located key stop. Obviously streetcars are "low floor" vehivles. So they are essentially designed for people with walking challenges or wheelchairs without the need for a lift.

2. As you have noted "Lower Bricktown" has ample asphalt surface parking with a higher level of disability parking for those needing closer front door service.

3. Rather than the continuously running rubber-tired circulator going all over Bricktown, I would recommend a "on-demand" rubber tired service located at Santa Fe Station. Obviously the streetcar will go directly to the station and perhaps Santa-Fe could have more disability parking.

An "on demand" service for disabled individuals could be provided perhaps via the OKC Ambassadors or as part of the Santa-Fe's service offering. Essentially a service escort that would take disabled individuals directly to the front door of Bricktown establishments as necessary. They could be radioed/called for the return trip back to the station.

I think that might help a great many people and be cost effective.

Doug, certainly your ideas would be welcome as we deal with how the overall system is designed to accommodate as many people as possible with all types of challenges.

I just gave 'em.

I just gave 'em.

Noted

I just gave 'em.

Well Doug, we have something in common. Would like to compare notes sometime.

I have hopes of building a pedicab this summer. I'll hit you up, Doug, when it's ready for the road.

There were 4 trucks on the site yesterday, but no activity again today. Was supposed to start last month.

I have hopes of building a pedicab this summer. I'll hit you up, Doug, when it's ready for the road.

Those things are crazy expensive. Nearly $4,000 on the low end.

Those things are crazy expensive. Nearly $4,000 on the low end.

That is why I said "build".

That is why I said "build".

What kind of earning potential do they have?

Believe me, I hate this project as much as you guys do, but when the garage and street-side parking make surface lots economically non-viable, this is gonna be one heck of a party deck when house of bedlam inevitably goes under and is replaced by a bar/restaurant.

Believe me, I hate this project as much as you guys do, but when the garage and street-side parking make surface lots economically non-viable, this is gonna be one heck of a party deck when house of bedlam inevitably goes under and is replaced by a bar/restaurant.

I like you're thinking and I hope both a free public garage and on-street parking happen soon.

Actually though, the store will be the one on Oklahoma; I think the other retail space on the canal that he's renting out will be viable for a long time, probably keeping that large lot on top of it (the one opening onto Reno) as a parking lot for a long time. I could definitely see the Apparel shop itself go under quickly though.

probably keeping that large lot on top of it (the one opening onto Reno) as a parking lot for a long time.

The parking won't touch Reno, it will be along Wanda Jackson Way.

The parking won't touch Reno, it will be along Wanda Jackson Way.

You are totally correct, sorry, I'd had it in my mind as Reno the whole time for some reason. Regardless, I still think that the retail space along the canal will stand the test of time more than the t-shirt hut.

Believe me, I hate this project as much as you guys do, but when the garage and street-side parking make surface lots economically non-viable, this is gonna be one heck of a party deck when house of bedlam inevitably goes under and is replaced by a bar/restaurant.

I guess you have to stay positive about this somehow. Thanks for the small glimmer of hope your post gives me. LOL(sorta)

You are totally correct, sorry, I'd had it in my mind as Reno the whole time for some reason. Regardless, I still think that the retail space along the canal will stand the test of time more than the t-shirt hut.

Agree about the retail, but I think House of Bedlam itself will do just fine, at least I hope so... I know that many hate this project because of the parking and hope that it fails out of shear spite, and while I am not thrilled about the parking myself, I don't hope the entire operation goes under. The reason: I truely fear that if the House of Bedlam fails it will ultimately end up yet another empty building. I would hope that is not the case, that if it fails the space will be rented out, perferably for more retail. But I have a terrible feeling that if it fails it will remain empty...

I'm scared...

I am definately not a fan of the House of Bedlam but as an admirer of Oklahoma City and Oklahoma in general I can honestly say that I would never wish failure upon anything here. If they set themselves up for failure then I can't say "I pity the fool" and that's not a direct reference to Chris Johnson since the House of Bedlam hasn't even broken ground yet so that makes it hard to judge just how successful it will be.

As vocal as I've been about not liking this project, I do wish Mr. Johnson the best of luck with this and USA Screenprinting.

I certainly hope the business succeeds. The main concern for many is that this location just had so much more promise to be something better than what is developing.

heard something very interesting about this project .... the House of bedlam building and parking on walnut is going to be built soon ... the corner canal lot is still being discussed with other developers to do something different then planned

Maybe it's a developer intervention.

heard something very interesting about this project .... the House of bedlam building and parking on walnut is going to be built soon ... the corner canal lot is still being discussed with other developers to do something different then planned

hmm... well just the possibility of eliminating the parking is exciting enough. Hopefully it could be what most of us desire: a hotel or residential project, with some canal level retail to boot. The only possible drawback I can see is that less contiguous retail space might not be as attractive to retailers compared to what Johnson was/is proposing (not that he probably had any national chain interest anyway).

That would make a lot of sense since they had no plan for any business in the west development.

House of Bedlam is opening up in the old International Rider Space next to Sonic

House of Bedlam is opening up in the old International Rider Space next to Sonic

does this mean the corner canal lot becomes parking and no retail at all? Or is the awful parking plan there dead?

House of Bedlam is opening up in the old International Rider Space next to Sonic

Where did that come from? Link? Insider info? Just curious... And if this is true, will it be temporary while waiting on the building to be complete or are the plans changing?

Why do people doubt me? Go look. There are signs in the windows. It looked very temporary.

Why do people doubt me? Go look. There are signs in the windows. It looked very temporary.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean that to sound like I was doubting you, I just hadn't heard that before. As a matter of fact I was walking by there yesterday and hadn't noticed. I even thought to myself "they really need to get something in there."

There was the USA Screen Print trailer out there and everything.

This calls for a celebration.

So, after rummaging through the new Bricktown Urban Design Committee (http://okc.gov/planning/planning_library/bricktown_ud/agenda.pdf), I found something very interesting, and I don't know if that's a good thing.

The site under scrutiny is the old Cotton Exchange site; i.e the north-most empty lot between the canal and Mickey Mantle, and then the vacant lot across the canal adjacent to Drinkz and directly east of the Kingman. Or for you technical kids, 101 S Mickey Mantle Drive.

The proposal calls for a two-story building, three if you count canal-level, to be built on the lot at 101 S Mickey Mantle. The building will be retail on canal and street level. The second level, which will not be built at the same time as the other two, will be left unoccupied. Directly south of this proposed building will be a small surface parking lot that terminates at the public "alley" that exists there now. The parking lot will be screened on the Mickey Mantle frontage. There is no canal-level for this, it will be a retaining wall made to match the building's architecture.

The second part of the proposal is to build a two-story garage on the lot across the canal from 101 S Mickey Mantle; the one that Drinkz backs up to. The garage will be built to accompany two additional floors in the future. Whether those will be garage floors or retail-finished space is unknown.

Here are renderings without further ado. IMHO, I think this is a huge letdown compared to the eye candy that was the Cotton Exchange.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2632/5796098426_ccfe82ab5b_b.jpg
Looking west, southwest towards the Bricktown Ballpark and the new 3 story building. Note 2 story garage on the right. New pedestrian bridge and the wrap-around walkways make me think that the future addition could likely be leasable space. Maybe.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2776/5795539685_1424bc8dce_b.jpg
Looking east, northeast from across Mickey Mantle. Notice the new parking lot.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2572/5796098206_7914e1644a_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2093/5796098246_8d03b82536_b.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5141/5796098286_a2b6a23e6f_b.jpg
The garage.

What kind of earning potential do they have?

No idea. I don't really care. It would be just for fun.

Pete, the final design fought for by Bricktown Urban Design Committee is slightly better than this original... I can email it to you if you'd like.

heard something very interesting about this project .... the House of bedlam building and parking on walnut is going to be built soon ... the corner canal lot is still being discussed with other developers to do something different then planned

hey boulder, do you know the latest on this? i'm curious where this project stands with regards to slight changes to improve the final proposal, and all that. i admittedly blocked this one out since i didn't like it and it came at a time that i was pretty busy with classes and studio hours.

Here are the latest renderings which represent the final approved plan:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/wikiphotos/bedlam1.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/wikiphotos/bedlam2.jpg

Much better

So, this is obviously a sports bar, but is it anything else?

So, this is obviously a sports bar, but is it anything else?

not a sports bar ..

It's my understanding that front part with the house of bedlam and cafe are to proceed...but the big part with the parking lot has been put on hold and "could" be getting up with a developer to build a hotel or something else there possibly.

It's my understanding that front part with the house of bedlam and cafe are to proceed...but the big part with the parking lot has been put on hold and "could" be getting up with a developer to build a hotel or something else there possibly.

This is good news. I guess we should all hope that Chris Johnson doesn't feel too castigated by the urban design crowd and still wants to work with the community, work with local developers who know downtown, and make a better anchor for the canal. This project needs to be taken as a prime opportunity to rejuvenate the faltering canal corridor.

In that whole complex...your saying there's not a single sports bar area... :lame:

It's my understanding that front part with the house of bedlam and cafe are to proceed...but the big part with the parking lot has been put on hold and "could" be getting up with a developer to build a hotel or something else there possibly.

I hope that's true. Maybe he has realized how much MORE money he could make off the lot.

And honestly, there could be an upside to the street side parking lot if he could get some destination tenants across the canal as he could sell it as having both canal AND street exposure. Once developed it really will be an epicenter of canal activity between the upper part and lower bricktown.

This could be a 180 not only for this project, but for the canal as a whole.

It's my understanding that front part with the house of bedlam and cafe are to proceed...but the big part with the parking lot has been put on hold and "could" be getting up with a developer to build a hotel or something else there possibly.

Steve, have you heard anything about this? Any truth?

It's my understanding that front part with the house of bedlam and cafe are to proceed...but the big part with the parking lot has been put on hold and "could" be getting up with a developer to build a hotel or something else there possibly.

This was an idea he rejected earlier in the process. Hotel developers approached him and I guess he wasn't interested. Unless something changed recently, the hotel isn't happening.

"House of Bedlam Hotel & Suites" ?? (Just an idea.)

Personally I'm not into themed hotels, but it would fit into Bricktown as an attraction. There is a hotel in Norman that is called "Sooner Legends", and I believe that it does quite well. Many of the rooms are themed after great Sooner players from the past.

A "House of Bedlam Hotel" could offer up themed rooms and suites from both OSU, OU, and a few Thunder rooms.

There is a hotel in Norman that is called "Sooner Legends", and I believe that it does quite well. Many of the rooms are themed after great Sooner players from the past.



True

All rooms have the theme of a Sooner personality. There are rooms themed after a few coaches from several sports and athletes from several sports but as most would think it’s dominated by past football greats.

Besides the Switzer center they have the best collection OU sport memorabilia. It’s on every wall and it lines the halls. If you’re an OU fan you may enjoy walking the halls. I have eaten at their cafe well over 100 times and have never had a bad meal. They also have a sports bar.

It's my understanding that front part with the house of bedlam and cafe are to proceed...but the big part with the parking lot has been put on hold and "could" be getting up with a developer to build a hotel or something else there possibly.

i had heard the same thing about a month ago ... and then last week i was told the entire project is on hold ...

http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2011/11/09/unfulfilled-dreams-and-questioned-motives/

http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2011/11/09/unfulfilled-dreams-and-questioned-motives/

And...? Is the project on hold? Has someone stepped up with a better offer/plan?

What I had heard is that Chris Johnson spurned the first overture while he was battling for approval, but is now listening more seriously to potential partners that are trying to have a come to Jesus with him. This lot is way too important, and everybody but Johnson knows it.


"House of Bedlam Hotel & Suites" ?? (Just an idea.)

Personally I'm not into themed hotels, but it would fit into Bricktown as an attraction. There is a hotel in Norman that is called "Sooner Legends", and I believe that it does quite well. Many of the rooms are themed after great Sooner players from the past.

A "House of Bedlam Hotel" could offer up themed rooms and suites from both OSU, OU, and a few Thunder rooms.

As a moderate OU and Thunder nut I would probably pay for that in the future...I see huge potential there. That reminds me of this swank hotel in Houston called the Inn at the Ballpark, when we were still attached to the Astros (and when they were still worth going to see), we'd go down for games each summer and stay there as a family. It was a great, old-fashioned baseball-themed hotel, but it was done in a very classy way. The motifs matched that of the new Minute Maid Park, for which part of Houston's old union train station was incorporated (and it has the choo choo train that takes a trip along its track with each run. It's a cool place, not to mention the incredible amount of mixed-use infill that DT Houston's east side has seen.

Johnson has had renderings and trade marks for a boutique hotel for years. Who knows what he's done with them, but the idea began a long time ago. I like the idea of a boutique hotel there.

http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2011/11/09/unfulfilled-dreams-and-questioned-motives/

Are you implying that the real motive behind all of these proposals this site has seen is to prevent other people from developing it? I'm not sure what you mean by questioning motives, and how the historic picture of this tragic plot of land sheds light on Johnson's motives.

Or are you just making the point that much gets proposed here, none of it comes to fruition? That wouldn't seem to touch on motives, however. Sorry for putting you on the spot, Steve..

Are you implying that the real motive behind all of these proposals this site has seen is to prevent other people from developing it? I'm not sure what you mean by questioning motives, and how the historic picture of this tragic plot of land sheds light on Johnson's motives.

Or are you just making the point that much gets proposed here, none of it comes to fruition? That wouldn't seem to touch on motives, however. Sorry for putting you on the spot, Steve..

This.

What's the latest with HOB and the canal development?

This project was originally scheduled to be wrapping up in a month and a half. I have not seen any activity because there are so many better projects to keep an eye on. That and I do not think that work is going to magically start on this.

Could we be so lucky as for this project to join the heap of failed proposals for this site?

Could we be so lucky as for this project to join the heap of failed proposals for this site?

That would be phenomenal. Don't get my hopes up.