Pete, we're finding some disagreements here. Deep Deuce wouldn't happen without Bricktown? I think rather, Bricktown won't survive without DD at this rate, and furthermore, how do we not know that DD wouldn't be bigger/better today? That neighborhood was decimated by ODOT, not solely OCURA like everywhere else. Bricktown was NOTHING in 1980. It was industrial, even.

On balance, if you like at where each neighborhood began, Deep Deuce did make more sense. So I think this Bricktown-centric view of downtown development is not only myopic but it's no longer the year 2004. Downtown has matured, issues have been solved, other issues popped up, and so on. The Bricktown-centric downtown view that many still have is not an accurate reflection of downtown today and not even CLOSE to it. Hopefully we can all agree on that.

As for the more than $12 million in TIFs, you don't think that is a standing offer for any developer willing to invest in a HUGE development like all of those TIFs are for? If anyone stepped up to do something like LEVEL in Bricktown, surely they could work a deal out. Besides, let's not pretend there haven't been subsidies for some Bricktown projects, as well. ALSO furthermore, keep in mind that those TIFs in DD paid for streetscape improvements for the most part. Bricktown already got all of that.

As for ACM@UCO, I think it's questionable whether they chose the right neighborhood at this point. I believe that there is a potential for a lot more REAL culture not to mention day-time vitality in other parts of the downtown area.

Why this contest between DD and BT. Both feed each other. All of downtown has to be synergystic. This my agenda vs. your agenda thing is one of the reason OKC has traditionally been unable to get things done. Instead of looking at the "core", we are now arguing about a few blocks at a time. DD and BT serve two totally different purposes. Both rely on each other at this time.

DD was not organically improving itself originally (unless you feel having MORE hookers was better than having LESS hookers). Government had to get involved, remove persistent blight and create a developable infrastructure. It would not have developed on its own. Neither would have BT. Overall, the complement each other and add to the entire core of the city...exactly wheat our city fathers intended.

As for the UCO ACM, I think it is best suited in BT with the performance venues and sense of entertainment. It doesn't necessarily fit another place better. The only knock on its location is the liquor issue, which should get worked out.

I don't believe there to be a contest between DD and BT? Just using them for comparative purposes, which I believe to be highly in order.

It is slightly better than a Thunder post,

:lol2:


Let's define strong: I'm not saying I think it's a valid, strong argument in favor of Johnson. I am saying it's someone who is not holding back in defending Johnson. Maybe a better description would have been "a long, vocal defense"? The idea is this is someone who is absolutely on Johnson's side of this argument. To be clear, I've not heard anyone on either side come right out and say Johnson's project is the highest and best use of this land.

Sounds more like one of his buddies or long time t-shirt customers hearing he was being bashed on your blog and coming in to defend him, rather than someone who really follows these things or has Bricktown's best interest in mind.

How many times have people who don't really follow downtown come to the rescue of some of these bastage developers? Reminds me of that SR debacle, and those suckers won. [*pulls hair out]

Kids don't have to be rude or stupid. It is only and excuse other rude people use to let rude kids grow up to be rude adults.

You're generalizing. Don't worry, the sun will come up again. I've never been told in person that I'm rude, but if you're that bruised over a single internet-forum comment, then I digress.

Haha.

Without the work of people like the Johnsons and Brewers to risk their livelyhoods there would be no Bricktown or MAPS 1 argueably. The Chesapeakes and Scaramucci's of the world have alot more available resources than these guys to do the things that are being talked about easily. What are they doing? Where are the deep pockets at?

OKC Boy, are you really comparing Johnson's track record to that of the Brewers? Yeah, both did surface parking in Bricktown, but beyond that, I'm at a loss to see how Johnson's record in Bricktown matches up. I'm not aware of him playing any role in MAPS 1 or Bricktown prior to the late 1999s. He built a surface parking lot along the canal and collected $5 per car to park there until selling it to Jim. Not aware of anything else done by Johnson in Bricktown to date. Brewer, on the other hand, unquestionably worked for and helped fund the first MAPS campaign and was tireless in his early promotion of the district. He helped get it started with O'Brien's and the festivals, including Fourth of July in Bricktown. As for Scaramucci, I'm curious to hear what Johnson has done to date that compares to Nonna's and The Painted Door. As for Chesapeake, they're not a player in Bricktown, though one can see the company's handiwork nearby along the Oklahoma River with the Chesapeake Boathouse and Finish Line Tower... Not bashing Johnson here, just questioning your comparison.

No just wondering when the deep pocket developers will start going to Bricktown. I was just comparing these two kind of developers as more hard working and haveing to worry more about the economics and revenue streams than the ones that can afford to do a multi million dollar development and make a return over a long period of time rather than immediately as a investment to support the family business or livelyhood. There is no comparison on track record in my mind.

Without the work of people like the Johnsons and Brewers to risk their livelyhoods there would be no Bricktown or MAPS 1 argueably. The Chesapeakes and Scaramucci's of the world have alot more available resources than these guys to do the things that are being talked about easily. What are they doing? Where are the deep pockets at?

The Brewer brothers haven't added any more surface parking lots since taking over for their old dad. Jim was a figure that Bricktown revolved around, no doubt about that. I don't mean to say he was the Godfather of Bricktown.......but close. By comparison Chris Johnson is some pissant hick with a sports clothing business that hasn't cashed in on Bricktown lately and wants a novelty project. Sometimes these people's presence and their utter lack of understanding/knowledge/awareness of downtown and Bricktown do infinitely more harm than good. There is no doubt in my mind that anything Chris Johnson does should stay out there on Meridian Avenue and not come ANY closer to downtown.

And to see someone compare Scaramucci to Johnson is laughable.

I was just trying to compare a thought process between a developer with limited resources and one blessed with many. To do a urban development we would all wish for on this property would take deep pockets. I do think Scaramucci needs to step it up a little if she wants to set an example as well as continue to be very critical
on the committees she sits on. Is she a developer or a politician? Besides the restaurant, what are her accomplishments?

To give the Old Dad's boys some credit. They brought more people to Bricktown
last night for The Pixies concert than Nonna's bring in a month. Not to mention all the economic benefits to Bricktown and the city associated with the show. Tapwerks was packed after the concert.

I think Brent and Brett Brewer have done quite a bit to advance development of Bricktown in the short time since their father's death.

Agree. Unforegoing any roadblocks, Sammy's is shooting for Jan. 1 opening. They also have plans to put passenger elevators in both Hunzicker and Pittsburg buildings. Due to the new transit hub, they have had to turn down two oppurtunities for the space next to Pinkitzel at the Sante Fe. They also are trying to secure funding for an extensive remodel of the Coca Cola Bricktown Event Center. I think once MAPS 3 gets moving along with the new hotels, etc. that we are looking forward to some exciting times.

Okcboy, Bricktown has always had some "exciting times" right around the corner. So we're to believe another round of public capital projects will be what Bricktown needs to finally see the development it should be having? Right... all I have to say to that is at least MAPS 3 isn't all about wasting a lot of money on Bricktown at this point.

I don't mean to shoot down the district, but I have learned for a fact over time that this expectation that in Bricktown, one thing will catalyze more things, has been absolutely false 100% of the time. In fact, it's the opposite. In Bricktown, one thing makes it less likely for another thing to happen as a result because all that WILL happen as a result is that more parking will be created and what buildings are left will see their asking price go up another notch.

There is not a shred of precedent that paints a picture of synergy of any kind in Bricktown. There may be some small shop owners and restaurant owners that work together, but in terms of design and development synergy, you've got to be kidding me. That is a huge indictment on both the Bricktown Association and the Bricktown Suburban Design Commission. More and more I'm convinced that those are the entities that aren't doing all they could, particularly the B(s)UDC, which is a city entity that has more enforcement mechanisms at its disposal than it realizes. And instead of debating against any proposed measures, why don't they just try something, anything?? Hard to see anything doing much more damage than this laissez fail approach that they're so fond of.


I was just trying to compare a thought process between a developer with limited resources and one blessed with many. To do a urban development we would all wish for on this property would take deep pockets. I do think Scaramucci needs to step it up a little if she wants to set an example as well as continue to be very critical
on the committees she sits on. Is she a developer or a politician? Besides the restaurant, what are her accomplishments?

No, it wouldn't have required Johnson to have deep pockets. He could have partnered with an interested hotel development firm that did have some very deep resources and was interested in developing that plot of land the right way.

As for Avis, don't worry, because she's not critical where she could be.

Tell me how you think Bricktown can become this urban utopia you speak of it supposed to being without deep pockets. Also, the interest earned from the MAPS 1 money was enough to fund the canal. We basically got a canal for free. Plus approximately 30% of MAPS money is paid by people from outside okc. Synergy doesn't make things happen. $$$ makes things happen. The city has returned this investment I would guess 10++ times over and is not putting anything but a transit line in the area from MAPS 3. Where would Downtown OKC be without Bricktown? I wish you could have seen downtown prior to MAPS 1. Did you ever think the Johnson hotel idea might not of made business sense? We don't know what was proposed.

I have noticed that deep pockets most of the time only invest in sure deals. Why?
Cause they can. I say this because there is a misconception that Bricktown is a risky venture for some. It is risky to only the people that don't apply successful business principles. Good product, Good service, Good management, etc. The ones that do make alot of money. Hopefully Harding and Shelton will do more projects.

I have noticed is that deep pockets most of the time invest in sure deals. Why?
Cause they can. I say this because there is a misconception that Bricktown is a risky venture for some. It is risky to only the people that don't apply successful business principles. Good product, Good service, Good management, etc. The ones that do make alot of money. Hopefully Harding and Shelton will do more projects.

Haha okay... Lol

Um, let's back up and let's deal with the basic truth about Bricktown. Oklahoma City TAXPAYERS made the buildings and property (including the holdings of Jim Brewer) far more valuable with the addition of a canal, ballpark, arena and rebuilt streets and sidewalks. Without any corresponding zoning or code requirements, property owners - including Jim and Chris Johnson - were able to enjoy a captive market that for a long time had no choice but to pay premium prices to park in their parking lots (the city even eliminated dozens if not hundreds of curbside parking spots over the ensuing years).
This is not free market dynamics at play.
That same TAXPAYER investment also created what many observers say is an over-inflation of asking prices for buildings. Some inexperienced aspiring developers bought these buildings at these allegedly inflated prices and discovered - too late - that the price they paid for those properties made renovation and development virtually impossible from a pure cash flow point of view.
Add into this equation some brokers who feed what is seen as an unrealistic expectation on sale prices in Bricktown and you get buildings that sit empty.
This is why, when a board member of the Southwestern Producers Coop recently suggested it could be converted into retail, I was skeptical. How can retail development cash flow if the asking price for the dirt is $121 million? Bricktown is not a boundless market for rent rates - the best of them can only get about $15 to $18 per square foot.
So when Johnson argues that retail has not taken place along the canal because of parking, is that the real reason? Or is the truth to be found in buyers and sellers like himself creating unrealistic development costs?
If "deep pockets" are avoiding investment in Bricktown, ask yourselves "why?" Could it be that they're more like Nick Preftakes, who prides himself in buying "wholesale" rather than "retail," and less like Gary Berlin, who I like a lot, but had no experience in development and way overpaid for the Mercantile Building.
OKC Boy, you know I have a respect for Jim's memory, flaws and all. But let's bring some reality to this discussion.
Grab a cup of coffee and discuss....

Then if parking is the way to go to, why is there only one parking garage?

You buy a lot, the cost to develop it is too high so you decide to leave it as a parking lot, then why has not a single person until now, decided to expand on the parking lot concept?

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/th_popcorncat.gif

Then if parking is the way to go to, why is there only one parking garage?

You buy a lot, the cost to develop it is too high so you decide to leave it as a parking lot, then why has not a single person until now, decided to expand on the parking lot concept?

There are those who say it's pretty to collect "folding cash" on some of these surface parking lots and leave the amount reported to the tax man a bit ... "fuzzy" ...

Has the bubble on these properties not already burst with Gary Cotton's auction of this very corner?

"[many property owners] are beginning to discover that potential buyers are no longer so willing to pay prices far above the properties’ actual value." in 2008

Steve, you are correct in theory. Nick is a developer. Jim wasn't. He was a risk taker. He bought in when nobody wanted them. His peers called him crazy. Even stupid. There wasn't ever an offer on the table with him that if it made sense, it was made. At the time, the city needed Bricktown and Bricktown needed the taxpayers. The taxpayers are makeing a return every day. My point is Bricktown needs a "big investment" deal to get it where we all want it to be. Like 20+ million dollar retail, etc. There is only very few that could accomplish this. Until then it will be a come and go process. Sure this development isn't perfect, but its something way better than that property has been for the last 25 years.

Whoever owned the grassy corner has always wanted more than what anyone was willing to pay. Dr. McKean approached the owner of that lot before buying what became JDM Place and they wanted more for that property than the building that he bought.

And there you go. BlueDog worked w/ the a&e firm that did JDM Place (correct?). So we could have had something on the scale of JDM Place or better where Johnson is wanting to do the parking lots.

That would be awesome. We just need the JDM's of the world to do more projects. I'm on your team Steve. I promise. The offers need to be realistic though. Not the $40/sq ft. I saw the other day.

And there you go. BlueDog worked w/ the a&e firm that did JDM Place (correct?). So we could have had something on the scale of JDM Place or better where Johnson is wanting to do the parking lots.
Yes, I was the architectural project manager on the job during construction after Steve Blair & Quentin Remy (the designers) left Benham.

BTW: Nice job. I consider to still be the best "new" private construction to date in Bricktown. Can't figure out why the canal level with those great door openings, etc., hasn't been figured out, but that's likely more a reflection on the owner than design.

We did a scheme for Makers before he opened up down the canal. I did a food court type of scheme when it was still under construction, I think the low deck height in there scares off potential tenants. I thought that might be the easiest way to get tenants and traffic in there to utilize the space but I think they always wanted something of a higher profile in there. It already has a wheelchair lift to get from canal level to the basement level.

Makers would have rocked in that spot. Might even still be open today if it had opened there.

Can we get the city to use the interest monies on Maps3 for a canal extension or for incentives to do a big retail complex?

Can we get the city to use the interest monies on Maps3 for a canal extension or for incentives to do a big retail complex?

Considering that they are already considering scaling back some original projects because of funding issues, the chance of that is nil.

Can we get the city to use the interest monies on Maps3 for a canal extension or for incentives to do a big retail complex?

As much as I may like your suggestion I have to concur with ljbab728; given that I'm not an expert on this subject, I just base my reasoning off of, well, the same reason ljbab stated.

okcboy, I doubt that will happen. They're through with the carrot because of how too many of the property owners have responded to date. It's more likely they might use the stick - as in creating extra assessments on surface parking and empty buildings, stop the BID incentive for surface parking, create a free parking garage to make the existing surface parking less profitable.

wouldn't even have to build a free garage ... the city could just make the exising lots that they own Free ..

More restrictions and government won't solve this problem. Working together to identify the issues and come up with some solutions sound like a better plan.

The folks I've talked to say they've tried that for years, and the majority of the property owners in Bricktown are too short-sighted, inexperienced and unwilling to give up their parking folding cash. And they cite other downtown areas where such strategies have worked. Thing is, back to the basic issue, taxpayers have more at risk, have taken more risks, and have more invested in Bricktown than any of the property owners. The property owners could still do something proactive, show that they're willing to move beyond what's assumed to be an addiction to parking lot "folding cash." But to these critics I'm talking to, Johnson is proof that change will not begin until representatives of the taxpayers get more aggressive about protecting their investment.

Can we get the city to use the interest monies on Maps3 for a canal extension or for incentives to do a big retail complex?

Big retail complexes in downtown cities like ours is an old concept that by and large failed everywhere. Shopping malls work in the suburbs. Shops work in downtown.

But to these critics I'm talking to, Johnson is proof that change will not begin until representatives of the taxpayers get more aggressive about protecting their investment.

Occupy Bricktown? Except instead of wanting free education we want better development.

Guestroom Records (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Guestroom-Records/52338944366) opened on the canal today. I know that won't be controversial/negative/Anthropologie enough for much of anyone on here to care, but I personally thought it worth a mention. Flame away...

I love the free parking idea.

There are alot of people in the parking business in Bricktown. If we are making this a parking operation issue then this includes many property owners including ones that own hotels, office buildings, and restaurants. The largest parking operator in DT is the City actually.

The city is quickly exiting the surface parking business downtown, and only has a couple such lots left, and it has no parking in Bricktown. I'm aware of the following pay-to-park public surface lots in Bricktown:
- Brewers
- Karchmer
- Scaramucci (one small lot next to Rock Island Plow Building)
- Moore (parking behind Bricktown Brewery and Abueloes)
- Chaif lot behind iHop

The only garage is the one next to the Hampton Inn run by Marsh Pitman

I rest my case.

The Redhawks parking lot. Tolbert (Karchmers partner). The person across from
the street to S. of the Mantel. The construction company to the E. of the Mantel. Bricktown Burgers. Meinders at the steel yard. The folks in the BPI group. The owners
to the E. of the Bricktown Event Center. The owners of the Body Works body shop. The owner of the lots W. of the Theatre (Hogan I guess).

Biting Sow. ODOT.

Black Oak at the Kingman

OKCboy, the odot lot is controlled by the Brewers. And yeah, you've got the Biting Sow & Kingman (40 spaces each?) run by Black Oak and Hickman.

The Redhawks parking lot. Tolbert (Karchmers partner). The person across from
the street to S. of the Mantel. The construction company to the E. of the Mantel. Bricktown Burgers. Meinders at the steel yard. The folks in the BPI group. The owners
to the E. of the Bricktown Event Center. The owners of the Body Works body shop. The owner of the lots W. of the Theatre (Hogan I guess).

My observation is the RedHawks only charge to their lot during special events, open and free at other times. Bricktown Burgers doesn't charge. Not aware of paid surface parking by Meinders. BPI group is Karchmer.
Let's be honest here: 80 percent of PAID surface parking in Bricktown are controlled by the Brewers or Karchmer. Either way, not sure you're making any progress here in the point you were trying to make. The city has NO parking it controls in Bricktown.

The point I was trying to make is that if this is an issue about people making money off of charging people to park on their property then there are alot of major property owners that make money doing this including the state and city. Regardless if it is a surface lot. The income they recieve from this plays a role into their business decisions. IMO I think this problem comes down to available $$ at the end of the day and being so critical about a certain persons motives is sometimes a little unfair when we don't know their whole situation.

So we all know. Bricktown Burgers charges on special events and does Meinders. Some weekends as well. City controls many meters in Bricktown and are proposeing more. Speaking for myself,
the 50 cents I put into the meter usually turns into a green envelope I mail in with a $10 check.

Ah, just a glorified flea market booth, right? But oh yeah, gotta love the local stuff and go nuts on that.

Guestroom Records (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Guestroom-Records/52338944366) opened on the canal today. I know that won't be controversial/negative/Anthropologie enough for much of anyone on here to care, but I personally thought it worth a mention. Flame away...

I care; that's cool!

Guestroom Records (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Guestroom-Records/52338944366) opened on the canal today. I know that won't be controversial/negative/Anthropologie enough for much of anyone on here to care, but I personally thought it worth a mention. Flame away...

Yes. but do they have curbside parking?

Guestroom Records (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Guestroom-Records/52338944366) opened on the canal today. I know that won't be controversial/negative/Anthropologie enough for much of anyone on here to care, but I personally thought it worth a mention. Flame away...

I checked Guestroom out yesterday. It'll be a cool little operation once they really get up and running. The guys said they'd have a section devoted to ACM@UCO offerings put together in the next couple weeks, which was what I was looking for.

Also, I checked out Red Dirt Emporium while I was there and I never realized how much great stuff they had. I'll definitely be back there for some Christmas shopping.

I guess I didn't realize there were any places that still bought LP's from consumers. Hmmm, wonder where mine even are.

More restrictions and government won't solve this problem. Working together to identify the issues and come up with some solutions sound like a better plan.

Don't underestimate the power of government to put specific industries out of business. I think one of the problems here is that the City and citizens want more development (retail/hotel/entertainment/food/commercial) in Bricktown and the large property owners only want to provide surface parking lots - which just happen to also be the prime development sites. If you can come up with ideas for compromise that haven't already been tried - and rejected by the propoerty owners - then lets here it.

In another thread I suggested a $12 per year tax on every non-residential parking space and I would support doubling that to $24 per year for general purpose parking garage lots not tied to a specific commerical operation and $36 per year for general purpose surface lots. The money would be used to fund walkability projects in the urban core. Along with this I would remove all parking requirements from the zoning laws.

For example: 70 parking spaces at Aloft equals $840 per year. 300 parking spaces at Level would equal $0 per year. A general use 300 car surface lot along the canal would be $10,800 per year. The 86 parking space at CVS on Classen would cost $3,096 per year but they wouldn't be required to build any of them in the first place. That $15,000 would then help pay for improving walkability along EKG. Do that for the million or so parking spaces in OKC and you could generate some serious cash - probably more than enough to pay for expansion of rail and make riding it free.

And there you go. BlueDog worked w/ the a&e firm that did JDM Place (correct?). So we could have had something on the scale of JDM Place or better where Johnson is wanting to do the parking lots.

One of probably a dozen potential developments that COULD have gone on this site, ALL of which would have been better than House of Bedlam.

One of probably a dozen potential developments that COULD have gone on this site, ALL of which would have been better than House of Bedlam.

This property was on the market for several years, so why didn't at least "one of the potential developers" purchase said property. Like I stated earlier, it may not be the preferred choice, but IMHO, it's better than having the land set vacant for the next 20 years.