Any changes in the design?

More detailing in the buildings, but otherwise, it's what he had last month. This development is very much in the spirit of what the city guided through with Randy Hogan in Lower Bricktown except Johnson is not using any EFIS or stucco.

Good article in the OKCCentral Blog

Thanks. I want to be clear that I'm not saying I think it's all a bluff - I really don't know what to think....

Bricktown is moving forward!

new plans approved today by Bricktown Urban Design Committee, C.Johnson moves forward with development...

What?!? They allowed for parking to be added to the canal. What a joke!

Right?

Steve, what do you propose might be "another agenda at play?"

Get funding then come up with a new design?

wshnitt - I look back at 2003 and there's a lot of people back then who swore it was an attempt to force McMullen to either pay out the nose to buy Brewer's side of the canal or to sell to Brewer and Johnson at a firesale price (McMullen did neither). Being the guy I am, I straight out asked Johnson about when he plans to start construction and whether this was going to be a repeat of 2003 - he said he plans to start asap.

Finally there will be a place to park in Bricktown!!

Bricktown needs more of this, ASAP!!

Finally there will be a place to park in Bricktown!!

Bricktown needs more of this, ASAP!!

Lol. =)

On the bright side, the urban core becomes more urban. Not happy about being replaced with parking lots though.

Finally there will be a place to park in Bricktown!!

Bricktown needs more of this, ASAP!!

I agree, every time I go to Bricktown, I have to park and walk at least 4--6 blocks to the canal.

Almost every time I go to Bricktown, I'm easily able to park within a block of my destination - a much shorter walk than an average visit to a Walmart.

It was inevitable someone would find a way to make the northern part of the canal a less attractive place. Some decided to scale way back on the Land Run monument. Others decided it would make sense to trash out the south end of the canal with a sea of parking almost at water's edge. Still others decided to run the new interstate between the once tranquil turnarounds for the tourist boats and the river cruisers.

Whatever BT still has going for it these days, an enjoyable canal experience isn't one of its bragging points these days.

I never have a problem with parking in Bricktown, people are freaking LAZY!

So much for having high expectations for Bricktown. Most prime piece of real estate completely wasted by this trash. Makes me sick. What a waste a such a great opportunity.

Sad!

I agree, every time I go to Bricktown, I have to park and walk at least 4--6 blocks to the canal.

Now we can walk 4-6 blocks to visit another parking lot. Way to go Bricktown!

It's not that bad, you are acting like he is just putting a parking lot there, did you forget he is also bring 30,000 sqft of much needed retail on the canal? I say +1 for this development, its better than open grass.

Let's hope this brings more retail to the area and sparks more development.

Maybe at a later date those parking lots can be converted to an actual development. If the market demands it, it could happen.

Maybe at a later date those parking lots can be converted to an actual development. If the market demands it, it could happen.

That will only happen if the parking support is over-engineered to support a multi-story building.

Parking in Bricktown is easy. Are people that have to walk 4-6 blocks just not able to figure out where to park? It blows my mind when people complain about this.

This development is fine, but allowing parking makes it not worth it. That parking lot will not be converted to another building any time soon.

From reading Steve's article, it seems the committee didn't have any legal right to withhold approval based on parking alone.

All other aspects of this development are in compliance.

Now that it's over, I will admit I had trouble seeing how this wouldn't have prevailed at the Board of Adjustment if the committee had rejected the application.

I actually think the buildings look great, but the parking is a major mistake. Do we know if he is going to engineer it to allow adding more floors on top if he or someone else wants to expand?

Incorrect!

The parking lot is not a mistake. You will see when its complete.

Well Lower Bricktown has officially taken over ALL of Bricktown.

Let's hope this brings more retail to the area and sparks more development.

It won't be quality development, we know that.

Well Lower Bricktown has officially taken over ALL of Bricktown.

Why is it that all the bad stuff is contagious?

What an abortion. Too bad Scaramucci and the other guy didn't vote.

Sadly, stuff like this will always happen in OKC. It's just the way things are here. When we do get quality development it is completely obtuse like Classen Curve. I'm thrilled with the overall improvement the city has made and continues to make, but there are so many things like this that just make you want to throw up your hands -- or just throw up.

Too bad Scaramucci and the other guy didn't vote.

I think this is the key point, why would not at least one of them make sure to be there to stale-mate it if they were both so strongly against it?

Why is it that all the bad stuff is contagious?

Well, that's just Bricktown for you.

Well, that's just Bricktown for you.

Sadly, the City has no one to blame but themselves. They set the standard with Lower Bricktown so why should developers be held to a higher standard? While the heavily subsidized Bricktown trends towards suburbia, not so heavily subsidized Deep Deuce gets more urban every day. Let's just hope the City is better at urban development in C2S than it was in Bricktown.

Sadly, the City has no one to blame but themselves...
...
....

Central planning at its finest.

I think this is the key point, why would not at least one of them make sure to be there to stale-mate it if they were both so strongly against it?

They probably had personal business to attend to. Keep in mind that appointees are volunteers. It sounds as if they made the other meetings.

It wouldn't have mattered... The city attorney basically told the group they couldn't withhold approval merely due to the parking.

From Steve's article yesterday:


Committee members over the past few months have argued repeatedly against the two parking lots, but were told by city attorneys they couldn't block parking under the statute that regulates design in the historic entertainment district.

Read more: http://newsok.com/proposed-parking-retail-buildings-for-bricktown-canal-properties-approved-by-bricktown-urban-design-committee/article/3621818#ixzz1dPnZVNSq

Everyone can blast the city all they want, but the city cannot FORCE investment when the economics just aren't there. Over time bricktown property will become more valuable and these lots will go away. But now, the upside doesn't justify huge investment...YET.

DD is perceived by investors to be worth the investment and they are making it so. Their success will ultimately force btown to become more valuable and bigger investments will be made. It is a process.

Everyone can blast the city all they want, but the city cannot FORCE investment when the economics just aren't there. Over time bricktown property will become more valuable and these lots will go away. But now, the upside doesn't justify huge investment...YET.

DD is perceived by investors to be worth the investment and they are making it so. Their success will ultimately force btown to become more valuable and bigger investments will be made. It is a process.

I agree. Larger was tried before and it did not work at this site.

Everyone can blast the city all they want, but the city cannot FORCE investment when the economics just aren't there. Over time bricktown property will become more valuable and these lots will go away. But now, the upside doesn't justify huge investment...YET.

DD is perceived by investors to be worth the investment and they are making it so. Their success will ultimately force btown to become more valuable and bigger investments will be made. It is a process.

Thanks. We've all been enlightened now. Lord.

Everyone can blast the city all they want, but the city cannot FORCE investment when the economics just aren't there. Over time bricktown property will become more valuable and these lots will go away. But now, the upside doesn't justify huge investment...YET.

DD is perceived by investors to be worth the investment and they are making it so. Their success will ultimately force btown to become more valuable and bigger investments will be made. It is a process.

Somewhere in the annals of OKCTalk I said step 1 in urban development is getting rid of all the vacant lots. After all the ground space is taken up things will start going vertical and the people who decided to spread out will be sorry they did so. You need only look at Deep Deuce again as an example. Deep Deuce apartments seemed urban at the time they were built but compared to everything else in Deep Deuce now they are the lowest density.

Unfortunately, development is like a gas - it expands to fill the container.

Thanks. We've all been enlightened now. Lord.

Having a bad day or just trying to be an arse?

Having a bad day or just trying to be an arse?

He's just a kid.....

He's just a kid.....

That wasn't an option Rover presented, so that can't be it...

He's just a kid.....

And he's not trying!!!!

And he's not trying!!!!

He's not trying what? Lol

Central planning at its finest.

That is offensive to planners. There is NO central planning in OKC. This is laissez FAIL to the max.

Everyone can blast the city all they want, but the city cannot FORCE investment when the economics just aren't there. Over time bricktown property will become more valuable and these lots will go away. But now, the upside doesn't justify huge investment...YET.

DD is perceived by investors to be worth the investment and they are making it so. Their success will ultimately force btown to become more valuable and bigger investments will be made. It is a process.

I agree with you of course, but the reason people are disagreeing with you is because the city has invested nothing in Deep Deuce. Absolutely nothing. Bricktown has the canal, more streetscapes, the ballpark, and on and on. How much taxpayer resources have been utilized to attract Bricktown development compared to the Deep Deuce housing projects? It is frustrating. Right now, Bricktown has absolutely not been worth it, in comparison. That's the bottom line, and I'm someone who's inclined to give the benefit of the doubt. I'm pro-Bricktown, but this is really frustrating.

Seems to me it has more to do with the gap economics. People like Chris Johnson and Jim Brewer have everything to do with that. Developers can get rich quick doing parking, or do it the right way, involving hard work, and do a real development. Which should they do?

I agree with you of course, but the reason people are disagreeing with you is because the city has invested nothing in Deep Deuce. Absolutely nothing. Bricktown has the canal, more streetscapes, the ballpark, and on and on. How much taxpayer resources have been utilized to attract Bricktown development compared to the Deep Deuce housing projects? It is frustrating. Right now, Bricktown has absolutely not been worth it, in comparison. That's the bottom line, and I'm someone who's inclined to give the benefit of the doubt. I'm pro-Bricktown, but this is really frustrating.

Seems to me it has more to do with the gap economics. People like Chris Johnson and Jim Brewer have everything to do with that. Developers can get rich quick doing parking, or do it the right way, involving hard work, and do a real development. Which should they do?

I am very interested this what you are saying here. Explain more what you mean by gap economics?

Well, I'm not a developer, and Pete and Rover could probably explain it a lot better than I since I'm more constrained to urban theory, but essentially it boils down to how expensive an opportunity is. Risk/reward. Bricktown is an expensive opportunity because you're not going to get in on a good real estate deal to boot. This is why quite often the economics are heavily in favor of "new and upcoming" districts as opposed to well-established (in some cases overrated) ones like Bricktown.

Many people believe that higher land values correlate to denser development. That would imply that Bricktown should be seeing all of Deep Deuce's development, whereas realistically we are seeing the exact reverse phenomena.

I agree with you of course, but the reason people are disagreeing with you is because the city has invested nothing in Deep Deuce

At least $12 million in TIF funding has already been spent on several projects in DD. Level and Bradshaw's project will get millions more.

Virtually every bit of development in Deep Deuce has involved OCURA obtaining properties then selling to developers for reduced prices.

And of course, very little of this would have happened without Bricktown being in place and thriving.


And I would strongly disagree that the results in Bricktown have not been worth the investment. ALL of the development downtown and the surrounding areas started with Bricktown. It was the first time OKC had a "there" to it and it's not a surprise that the surrounding areas have all picked up since. It also proved it was possible to have a successful urban district in town which made it much easier for other areas to be developed.


I understand some of the frustration about Bricktown but it's incredible how little credit the area gets. It is STILL the one place I take people new to OKC and every single one of them have been impressed. There is an incredible amount there for crying out loud.

In case no one has been paying attention, not only did the ACM@UCO buy their entire building to expand their wildly successful program, they are also helping start a new music store. I could list scores more RECENT happenings (Purple Martini, Norms, etc., etc.) and the dozens and dozens of restaurants, bars, clubs, live music venues and everything else from a big movie theater to a bowling lounge to the ballpark... But it would take far too long.

Pete, we're finding some disagreements here. Deep Deuce wouldn't happen without Bricktown? I think rather, Bricktown won't survive without DD at this rate, and furthermore, how do we not know that DD wouldn't be bigger/better today? That neighborhood was decimated by ODOT, not solely OCURA like everywhere else. Bricktown was NOTHING in 1980. It was industrial, even.

On balance, if you like at where each neighborhood began, Deep Deuce did make more sense. So I think this Bricktown-centric view of downtown development is not only myopic but it's no longer the year 2004. Downtown has matured, issues have been solved, other issues popped up, and so on. The Bricktown-centric downtown view that many still have is not an accurate reflection of downtown today and not even CLOSE to it. Hopefully we can all agree on that.

As for the more than $12 million in TIFs, you don't think that is a standing offer for any developer willing to invest in a HUGE development like all of those TIFs are for? If anyone stepped up to do something like LEVEL in Bricktown, surely they could work a deal out. Besides, let's not pretend there haven't been subsidies for some Bricktown projects, as well. ALSO furthermore, keep in mind that those TIFs in DD paid for streetscape improvements for the most part. Bricktown already got all of that.

As for ACM@UCO, I think it's questionable whether they chose the right neighborhood at this point. I believe that there is a potential for a lot more REAL culture not to mention day-time vitality in other parts of the downtown area.

Incorrect!

The parking lot is not a mistake. You will see when its complete.

Care to explain that beyond simple cheerleading?

A strong defense of Chris Johnson and this development was just posted: http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2011/11/09/unfulfilled-dreams-and-questioned-motives/

So you think these guys are just having a pissing match while the rest of the people in the City have to sit around and watch? They could learn a lesson from the deveopers a few blocks to their north who seem to be working together to make money.

A strong defense of Chris Johnson and this development was just posted: http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2011/11/09/unfulfilled-dreams-and-questioned-motives/

Ehh. Not that strong. It's fine and dandy that he's a successful businessman, but he has no experience in an urban setting and little vision for how he can develop the property successfully without essentially giving us yet another canal-adjacent parking lot.

I do like the look of the buildings, but there should be more of them and no parking at street level. I actually would have been satisfied if he cut the parking area in half and made the north half a second level of retail. At least then you would have no parking visible from the canal on that side.

A strong defense of Chris Johnson and this development was just posted: http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2011/11/09/unfulfilled-dreams-and-questioned-motives/

That's a strong defense? It's not even coherent, and it avoids the issues. Parking is not needed. Who cares if he's employed people before? And the point isn't to put something, anything there. "At least he's doing something there" more like "at least he's willing to prevent a better development from going on Bricktown's best open plot."

Steve, you've really lowered the bar if you think that's a strong defense. It is slightly better than a Thunder post, but other than that, I think you're trying a little too hard to be balanced here.

While this may not be the best or most desired use for this property, I think it's better than having vacant land set idle for the next 20 years.

Deep Deuce wouldn't happen without Bricktown? I think rather, Bricktown won't survive without DD at this rate, and furthermore, how do we not know that DD wouldn't be bigger/better today? That neighborhood was decimated by ODOT, not solely OCURA like everywhere else. Bricktown was NOTHING in 1980. It was industrial, even.

On balance, if you like at where each neighborhood began, Deep Deuce did make more sense. So I think this Bricktown-centric view of downtown development is not only myopic but it's no longer the year 2004. Downtown has matured, issues have been solved, other issues popped up, and so on. The Bricktown-centric downtown view that many still have is not an accurate reflection of downtown today and not even CLOSE to it. Hopefully we can all agree on that.

As for ACM@UCO, I think it's questionable whether they chose the right neighborhood at this point. I believe that there is a potential for a lot more REAL culture not to mention day-time vitality in other parts of the downtown area.

I think it's very difficult to compare Deep Deuce and Bricktown. Deep Deuce, at this point in time, is becoming a neighborhood. Bricktown will never be a neighborhood. But, they both have their place. I might not live in Deep Deuce, were it not for Bricktown, but I think Bricktown could easily survive without Deep Deuce. It's rather the restaurants in Deep Deuce which would have trouble surviving without Deep Deuce residents.

Bricktown, on a weekend, is a vibrant place. Due to a broken toe, we drove rather than walked to Harkins to go to a movie last night. We had great difficulty finding a parking spot close enough for the broken toe. There were people everywhere. The movie theatre and all the restaurants we passed were full. When Bricktown is hopping, it's a fun place to be and worthy of our tax dollars and support. If we're lucky, some day Deep Deuce will be like many other city neighborhoods, with a few restaurants, some boutique shopping, a grocery store and a few other services. That will be great. But, the proximity to Bricktown and the CBD adds appeal that a city neighborhood cannot provide, IMO.

It's wonderful we are starting to have many different near downtown options for restaurants and housing. They are all unique and have value. Now all we need is a bit more retail.

That's a strong defense? It's not even coherent, and it avoids the issues. Parking is not needed. Who cares if he's employed people before? And the point isn't to put something, anything there. "At least he's doing something there" more like "at least he's willing to prevent a better development from going on Bricktown's best open plot."

Steve, you've really lowered the bar if you think that's a strong defense. It is slightly better than a Thunder post, but other than that, I think you're trying a little too hard to be balanced here.

Let's define strong: I'm not saying I think it's a valid, strong argument in favor of Johnson. I am saying it's someone who is not holding back in defending Johnson. Maybe a better description would have been "a long, vocal defense"? The idea is this is someone who is absolutely on Johnson's side of this argument. To be clear, I've not heard anyone on either side come right out and say Johnson's project is the highest and best use of this land.

He's just a kid.....

Kids don't have to be rude or stupid. It is only and excuse other rude people use to let rude kids grow up to be rude adults.

I agree with you of course, but the reason people are disagreeing with you is because the city has invested nothing in Deep Deuce. Absolutely nothing. Bricktown has the canal, more streetscapes, the ballpark, and on and on. How much taxpayer resources have been utilized to attract Bricktown development compared to the Deep Deuce housing projects? It is frustrating. Right now, Bricktown has absolutely not been worth it, in comparison. That's the bottom line, and I'm someone who's inclined to give the benefit of the doubt. I'm pro-Bricktown, but this is really frustrating.

Seems to me it has more to do with the gap economics. People like Chris Johnson and Jim Brewer have everything to do with that. Developers can get rich quick doing parking, or do it the right way, involving hard work, and do a real development. Which should they do?

We are saying the same thing. The investment I am referring to was in Btown. The private investors are the ones making DD viable (though DD was cleared and invested in by the city originally, just not focused on like Btown.

I don't think surface parking lot operations make investors rich. Usually they are a way to create positive cash flow and buy time for the property to become valuable. Of course that assumes that their neighbors are investing in making that happen so they get a free ride...or in this case, counting on the public to invest and make their property worth more. Essentially, these surface lot creators are counting on someone else...you and me...to do the risky work they don't have the stomach, means, and/or desire to do. IMHO, this is when the city needs to protect its citizens' investment and put teeth into restrictions, standards, etc., and penalize through taxation. Let them do surface and then take 50% of their income. Make it not pay. Give them the right breaks for development and expedite the administration of such. etc., etc., etc.