You've just advocated a reduction in building street frontage along Mickey Mantle?

You've just advocated a reduction in building street frontage along Mickey Yes, Mantle?

Yes, by about 8'. How much unused frontage is there now?

When this building is constructed there will be zero unused Mickey Mantle frontage on that lot. It extends fully to the alley. I don't think people are looking very closely at these revised plans.

I guess I am not concerned with losing 8' of frontage if it means making development of the canal corner easier.

New rendering of this project; this is the east elevation as it fronts Walnut / Mickey Mantle.

No significant changes. Set for final design review on 9/11.



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/bedlam9413.jpg


Very nice. I'm not so sure I like this valet lane but if he has to have it, he's done it in a very urban way, and aesthetically it does a great job of recreating the look of the old brick warehouses.

No, Sid, it's an alley. It has been an alley since 1889, and due to the setback of the back sides of existing buildings if it was open to two way it would barely function, and would eliminate safe pedestrian interaction, as there would not be room to accommodate E/W AND sidewalk. The original E/W was California, now the canal alignment.

I would be much more inclined to agree with making the alley more pedestrian-focused, but I'm sorry, in this rare case encouraging regular two-way vehicular traffic would be a mistake..

Also, the idea of making it two-way and the primary (solitary?) access for a large development on the canal corner ignores the realities of deliveries/trash and other commercial traffic in the alley. Right now, even with lukewarm development, there is quite a bit of that, currently only to service Drinkz, Bourbon Street, Whiskey Chicks, Yucatan and the offices in the Kingman Building. After HOB opens, and (hopefully) a large development builds on the other empty land, and (hopefully) development occurs on Avis' empty land south of the alley fronting MM, and (hopefully) new development occurs in the building next to Drinkz AND the old Margarita Mamas, you are talking about nonstop deliveries and other commercial traffic during the business day. This would be incompatible use with guests coming and going from (for instance) a hotel.

The question nobody is asking is why Chris needs and has been so focused on the five parking spaces (one of which is handicapped) plus a large pull-through clearly marked "valet" for a laser tag, some small retail spaces downstairs, and a compact T-shirt shop that sells sandwiches and coffee. No way selling parking in those spaces amounts to any significant revenue (he won't be selling parking there), and I would guess he plans for more than five customers at a time for those businesses.

If he was purely trying to maximize the revenue from the HOB building as a standalone, he would be FAR better off to develop the "valet" and parking spaces as for-rent retail and lobby the City for metered, angled parking on MM (which I think they would be inclined to agree to). So then, why the 4+1 parking spaces and the "valet" pull-thru, exiting to the alley?

The question nobody is asking is why Chris needs and has been so focused on the five parking spaces (one of which is handicapped) plus a large pull-through clearly marked "valet" for a laser tag, some small retail spaces downstairs, and a compact T-shirt shop that sells sandwiches and coffee. No way selling parking in those spaces amounts to any significant revenue (he won't be selling parking there), and I would guess he plans for more than five customers at a time for those businesses.

If he was purely trying to maximize the revenue from the HOB building as a standalone, he would be FAR better off to develop the "valet" and parking spaces as for-rent retail and lobby the City for metered, angled parking on MM (which I think they would be inclined to agree to). So then, why the 4+1 parking spaces and the "valet" pull-thru, exiting to the alley?

I did:


Those are some incredibly expensive parking spaces. It's baffling why he insists on having them and losing that much leasable space.

There must be some overarching reason, but I can't figure out what it is. Valet is good business, but not THAT good.

There is an overarching reason. There is also a reason he was working towards parking inside the old Jokers location. But nobody has been trying to connect dots; they have been solely looking at each project individually instead. Nobody has been considering the fact that by far his most important, expensive, and loaded-with-opportunity holding sits across the canal from this one.

There's some activity on this site today. I saw a dump truck and multiple people with hard hats there. Since its down the hill, I couldn't see what they were doing.

There is an overarching reason. There is also a reason he was working towards parking inside the old Jokers location. But nobody has been trying to connect dots; they have been solely looking at each project individually instead. Nobody has been considering the fact that by far his most important, expensive, and loaded-with-opportunity holding sits across the canal from this one.

So I take it that we'll likely see a connection of some sort from HOB to the lot across the canal in the next phase of development (hotel or whatever that may be)?

I still can't get over the horrible name for this project.

I still can't get over the horrible name for this project.

how so .. it is the name of his retail store?

I'm not discussing the sidewalk or tree canopy. The valet spots I am talking about are INSIDE the footprint of the building, Sid. PhiAlpha is heading in the right direction. I don't know how much more clear I can make it; this is part of a larger plan. How far along he is on other aspects of that plan, I can't say.

And Sid, assuming a large development appears on the corner grass lot, do you REALLY feel alley valet access, mixed with deliveries, is going to work? Where is the main entrance? If it was a hotel, how is check-in and luggage transfer handled? Do you think it was appropriate to give the Hampton and the Hilton Garden in curb cuts for their customer check-in canopies? Each of those places got TWO curb cuts.

I'm not discussing the sidewalk or tree canopy. The valet spots I am talking about are INSIDE the footprint of the building, Sid. PhiAlpha is heading in the right direction. I don't know how much more clear I can make it; this is part of a larger plan. How far along he is on other aspects of that plan, I can't say.

And Sid, assuming a large development appears on the corner grass lot, do you REALLY feel alley valet access, mixed with deliveries, is going to work? Where is the main entrance? If it was a hotel, how is check-in and luggage transfer handled? Do you think it was appropriate to give the Hampton and the Hilton Garden in curb cuts for their customer check-in canopies? Each of those places got TWO curb cuts.

If I was the developer that owned those two pieces of land and was trying to make a deal with a hotel operator to put a large hotel on that corner of the canal, I would certainly want access (vallet, guest drop off, luggage drop off etc...) from a major road and not a glorified alley. Better visibility, better access, and much more aesthetically pleasing for guest then directing them through an alley, especially if this is a sizable hotel. Given the access required by other hotels downtown, no way would a large or even mid-sized hotel be viable if the only vehicular access was through that alley. Not anywhere near enough space.

It's even crowded with delivery trucks in the google earth image...
4381

All excellent points, PhiAlpha. Limiting that property to alley-only access (exacerbated by the primary facade's canal frontage), severely limits development opportunities for perhaps the most prime remaining property in Bricktown. It would be extremely short-sighted development to build out your T-shirt shop and by so doing drastically curtail the chances for something much more important to go on that other lot.

funny that you pick that hitlon .. and not the hyatt across the street that has curb cuts for its pull in valet

how so .. it is the name of his retail store?

I dunno. It just kinda burns me that we're getting laser tag and sweatshop OU football t-shirts in this extraordinary location. I guess it could be worse. Well, in fact it was worse before this redesign.

I know there are hotels with curb cuts. Cities have been quick and willing to give up the pedestrian space. My point wasn't that there are plenty of failures to look at but that there are plenty of success stories to emulate.

curb cuts are not "failures to look at" i'm sorry most people can look both ways and cross a driveway ...

We fundamentally disagree. Little to talk about on the topic.

I'd only challenge you to try walking your family of 5 down sidewalks riddled with them. It's unnerving and occasionally terrifying because cars don't seem to realize they are crossing a pedestrian space. You and I don't see eye to eye at all. They are a waste of a more valuable municipal resource -- safe, public space for pedestrians.

they also help business survive .. which provides tax revenue .. to take care of other pedestrian spaces .. like parks .. and i have walked bricktown plenty .. and have never felt unsafe because of cars ..

We fundamentally disagree. Little to talk about on the topic.

I'd only challenge you to try walking your family of 5 down sidewalks riddled with them. It's unnerving and occasionally terrifying because cars don't seem to realize they are crossing a pedestrian space. You and I don't see eye to eye at all. They are a waste of a more valuable municipal resource -- safe, public space for pedestrians.

also .. its not like this street is now going to be west linsday in norman ... after this we will have 4 curb cuts in 2 full blocks .. the horror ..

I've spoken with plenty who disagree with you and agree with me.

Put my name on that list. :)

Put my name on that list. :)

Mine as well.

Sid, that Hilton in Saint Louis is a horrible example with which to make your case. It is on a five lane one-way thoroughfare, and the entire lane in front of the hotel is basically a protected drop-off lane for the hotel. It has NOTHING in common with this space, other than that there are (potentially) hotels and cars involved.

The Seattle location is very similar, though on a smaller scale. It also has an alley behind it where it and neighboring businesses receive their deliveries. I'm suspecting the St. Louis hotel does too, though I am too lazy to go back and look. Neither of your examples is anywhere close to an apples-to-apples comparison to this peculiar plot of land which has canal on two sides, a flush neighboring building facade on the third, and an active alley WHICH IT SHARES WITH OTHER BUSINESSES for deliveries. I am sorry, you are only thinking about your own experience on the sidewalk and not what goes into making a viable business in this unique location.

Nice Thruxton on the street in Seattle, though! :wink:

If you want to dazzle me (and waste more time :D ), show me a hotel with an back-alley-only entrance for all guests arriving via automobile. I will wager it is a hotel where you won't take your family, if you can find one. Certainly would be a tough sell for a potential hotel developer or investor. If that is what appears on that location, I would suggest that the fact that there is only a single curb cut, unlike the Hampton or the Hilton Garden Inn, is a net win, by a long shot.

I would also point out that this particular curb cut is for entry, not exit. I understand and agree with your point about them being potentially unnerving, but this is definitely the case much more with exits than it is with entrances.

Come on Sid! That is NOT a 20' wide alley with no room for sidewalks, shared with garbage and delivery trucks! That hotel has a CORNER entrance (on two streets) and the side where the streetview is located is a street that looks to be roughly 50' wide, with at least two free-flowing lanes of traffic, a BICYCLE LANE, A PARKING LANE, and sidewalks that look to be 10,-12' wide on top of that! This is an apples-to-oranges comparison of the worst sort. I can't believe you are clinging to this as your example.

I just showed you that in fact they don't need it. They are a subsidy to the business that isn't needed.

Your opinion about cars in Bricktown is yours. I've spoken with plenty who disagree with you and agree with me. Done with this discussion. We'll have to agree to disagree. :)

Good for you though, the City is going to continue to support an auto-first policy. In 20 years, I can't wait to say I told you so. ;)How has OKC even survived this long seeing as it is and automobile dominant city and has been so? Seems the city is doing just fine.

I wouldn't be opposed to your idea, it actually seems pretty good, imo. I just don't get why you think OKC will fail in this in 20 years because of a few curb cuts.

Satellite imagery from 05/22/2013

House of Bedlam Site Plan | FEMA Google Maps (http://www.google.org/crisismap/2013-oklahoma-tornado?hl=en&llbox=35.467665%2C35.463479%2C-97.50446%2C-97.513113&t=CUSTOM&layers=17%2C3%3A53%2C5%2C14%2Clayer0%2C7%2C11%2C8% 2C9)

No, Sid, it's an alley. It has been an alley since 1889, and due to the setback of the back sides of existing buildings if it was open to two way it would barely function, and would eliminate safe pedestrian interaction, as there would not be room to accommodate E/W AND sidewalk. The original E/W was California, now the canal alignment.

I would be much more inclined to agree with making the alley more pedestrian-focused, but I'm sorry, in this rare case encouraging regular two-way vehicular traffic would be a mistake..

Also, the idea of making it two-way and the primary (solitary?) access for a large development on the canal corner ignores the realities of deliveries/trash and other commercial traffic in the alley. Right now, even with lukewarm development, there is quite a bit of that, currently only to service Drinkz, Bourbon Street, Whiskey Chicks, Yucatan and the offices in the Kingman Building. After HOB opens, and (hopefully) a large development builds on the other empty land, and (hopefully) development occurs on Avis' empty land south of the alley fronting MM, and (hopefully) new development occurs in the building next to Drinkz AND the old Margarita Mamas, you are talking about nonstop deliveries and other commercial traffic during the business day. This would be incompatible use with guests coming and going from (for instance) a hotel.
That is an alley and not wide enough with the buildings right on the alley to be a two-way drive, the alley behind JDM was unidirectional in the early days of Bricktown and it was easy to get caught against someone going the other way. Many of those alleys also had rail lines running down them back when they were working warehouses and the docks used to come right to the rail cars, not sure if any of those docks are left but IIRC the property lines mostly run to the edge of the docks. I think the edge of the trash screen wall at JDM is about where the property line is located.

I guess the real questions are:

Could they do it with only the alley for vehicular access? Sure

Should they do it that way? Maybe

Would a hotel operator be willing to support it being set up that way? Maybe but when they have the option to have it front MM, why would they?

Is turning down 2 curb cuts and removing the vallet worth risking losing a potentially great development on one of the most important lots remaining on the canal? In my mind absolutely not.

In the modern bricktown era, That lot has been sitting empty for close to 20 years now. I'm not sure but I would assume lack of access to it has been at least part of the reason (obviously the poor ownership issue that plagues Bricktown was a large part of it as well). I would hate to jeopardize a great development for that. For me, it all depends on the greatness level of whatever is proposed.

With all the unused surface parking in Bricktown, it is simply stunning that we're dedicating any canal space whatsoever to even more parking. Just.... what..... no.....

Beyond that, the curb cuts here and at the other hotels are unnecessary. I agree that they are embarrassing. They also contribute to a hostile street environment for pedestrians. It's not that curb cuts are particularly complicated for sidewalk users to navigate; it's that they introduce a needless potential conflict with motorists who apparently are so impatient that they need drop offs 2 feet from the door rather 7 or 8 feet away. Would the Hampton Inn really lose any business if those drop offs occurred on the sidewalk rather than just in front of the entrance? Probably not. But wouldn't Bricktown be made much more walkable and hospitable if more respect for the pedestrian realm were given. Definitely.

Not respecting the pedestrian realm shows up in a number of ways, even in our most urban districts, that feed into the cycle of encouraging nothing but the continued propagation of car culture here. There is an astonishing lack of shade structures, street furniture, wide zebra crossings delineating the safety space of pedestrians when crossing the street. Even when crossing Reno Ave to go to RedPin or Fuzzy's, it is obvious to anyone walking that they are little more than an annoyance to motorists speeding their way wherever they're going. I have seen a driver pull up within inches of a woman's knees as she crossed with the signal. There were no other cars around; she was the only pedestrian crossing the street; therefore the driver could have waited a few more seconds to make his right turn. Yet that's the sense of priority and importance that we ingrain in drivers in this city when we carve up curbs or place parking right in front of every door.

Enough already.

If a hotel walks because of a lack of a curb cut, there was NOTHING great about them to begin with.

Eh, to each his own. I see your point, but I guess I just don't care that much. Hopefully this development as a whole turns out well.

Comparing Okc to Chicago is laughable

We each have our "issues". :)

Haha true

Steve's update.

Construction starts on House of Bedlam | News OK (http://newsok.com/construction-starts-on-house-of-bedlam/article/3881762)

Johnson confirmed talks have included potential hotel developers.

The House of Bedlam design includes the ability to bridge over the waterway to a remaining undeveloped west parcel.

“Hopefully in the future, it will bridge over the canal,” Johnson said.

Guess this confirms the walkway across and what the valet will be used for.

In the interview the developer said that Bricktown is going to get it's first salad bar. I almost spit my drink out of my nose.

I assume the future connection across the canal would be a widening of the current bridge and not a whole new bridge right next to the existing one. Maybe the restaurant will be a Sweet Tomatoes/Souplantion.

http://www.souplantation.com/

Incorrect assumption regarding the bridge.

Steel already going up! (courtesy of Sid):

https://sphotos-b-pao.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/v/1173699_449360478514389_1811135060_n.jpg?oh=40e040 855e61a96337e346c135357099&oe=52341FCB

That is sheet pile being driven. They are extending the retaining wall to the alley, at which point everything below the retaining wall will be excavated for the canal-level space.

This is so great for the canal. And ultimately all of Bricktown.

Can't wait to see this finished.

(...and something developed on the lot to west as well, ahem...)

And it's supposed to go up quickly as well. Hoping to be finished by next summer!

That would be awesome to have it complete while the playoffs were going on.

Downtown's new nickname: CCZ

Continuous Construction Zone.

(does that merit one of these: :) ... or one of these: :( ...... maybe both)

Gotta be a pain in the posterior for those living/working downtown right now. But then again... what excitement, what buzz! Things are just plain happening. It's crazy (crazy good).

In the interview the developer said that Bricktown is going to get it's first salad bar. I almost spit my drink out of my nose.

Ha. I know. This is way better than what was first proposed, but this guy still has a bit of hubris about him when it comes to this project. It's okay, but it's not some game changer, especially considering that it's on property that he himself calls some of the best in the city. The thing is that the west lot could be a game changer by creating a nexus point for canal side developments. It is certainly the most integrated undeveloped property on the canal and, done right, it could be a real boost to everything fronting the canal along what used to be California. I am still not convinced that he understands that.

I'm curious. Suppose that he actually does develop a hotel on the west lot (this is just conjecture, mind you).

How tall could that hotel be? Four stories? Six? Eight? Exactly how tall a structure would be allowed to front the canal?

I'm curious. Suppose that he actually does develop a hotel on the west lot (this is just conjecture, mind you).

How tall could that hotel be? Four stories? Six? Eight? Exactly how tall a structure would be allowed to front the canal?

Yes. :) Bricktown code allows up to 140' under certain circumstances.

Ha. I know. This is way better than what was first proposed, but this guy still has a bit of hubris about him when it comes to this project. It's okay, but it's not some game changer, especially considering that it's on property that he himself calls some of the best in the city. The thing is that the west lot could be a game changer by creating a nexus point for canal side developments. It is certainly the most integrated undeveloped property on the canal and, done right, it could be a real boost to everything fronting the canal along what used to be California. I am still not convinced that he understands that.
He understands it. The ability to develop that property is in reality what is driving the HOB building.

Pete, any chance you could swap out the old photo in the article section with the updated rendering? Here is what is there now, which (fortunately) has almost zero relationship with what is going in now:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/wikiphotos/bedlam2.jpg

He understands it. The ability to develop that property is in reality what is driving the HOB building.

I hope so. I just feel his approach to date has been very underwhelming in context of this being some of the most valuable property in the city. If he really believed that, wouldn't he have tried to do more with it?

The very ambitious plans (Cotton Exchange) couldn't get financing. Perhaps he is focused on something that actually can get financed and be a financial success.

The very ambitious plans (Cotton Exchange) couldn't get financing. Perhaps he is focused on something that actually can get financed and be a financial success.

Wasn't that also right around recession time? 2007?

Yes. :) Bricktown code allows up to 140' under certain circumstances.
For a point of reference the height at the top of the clock tower at JDM Place is about 96' at canal level and about 86' from Mickey Mantle. Dr. McKean originally wanted two floors added but the old concrete structure couldn't support more than one added floor.

Wasn't that also right around recession time? 2007?

No.

No.

Okay, well...either way...it would have been cool to see that good ol' Cotton Exchange sitting there today!

I hope so. I just feel his approach to date has been very underwhelming in context of this being some of the most valuable property in the city. If he really believed that, wouldn't he have tried to do more with it?
The original plan (which without question was very underwhelming) encompassed both lots, and was based on what he could finance and utilize himself. The new approach has been to develop the Mickey Mantle location for his own purposes while protecting/providing access to the corner lot, and to seek outside partners/investors/developers/purchasers to develop that property. It is a far more reasonable and promising approach, and should turn out much better for him AND for Bricktown.

The very ambitious plans (Cotton Exchange) couldn't get financing. Perhaps he is focused on something that actually can get financed and be a financial success.

Wasn't that also right around recession time? 2007?

The answer is yes. The Cotton Exchange was announced in January of 2008, but planning for it started much earlier. He purchased the land for it and had all the behind the scenes work done in 2007. Here is a story written by Steve in January 2008 questioning if it was actually ever going to get built.

The Cotton Exchange | News OK (http://newsok.com/the-cotton-exchange/article/3837199)

I know Gary and the project. 2007 was not when it went down. However, banking reluctance as a result of the recession made it more difficult for sure. It was ambitious and OKC was not ready for it then. There is way more evidence that would support projecting success for a similar project now. It was also a very ambitious project for someone who had never done something of that scale and style.

It seems strange Johnson is in such a hurry to get this project done in advance of the deal he has working for the west parcel.

Since this piece is so critical to the overall development, why not wait and incorporate it completely once the other deal is finalized?

He's sat on this property for years, after all.

It seems strange Johnson is in such a hurry to get this project done in advance of the deal he has working for the west parcel.

Since this piece is so critical to the overall development, why not wait and incorporate it completely once the other deal is finalized?

He's sat on this property for years, after all.

It does seem a little weird.

The original plan (which without question was very underwhelming) encompassed both lots, and was based on what he could finance and utilize himself. The new approach has been to develop the Mickey Mantle location for his own purposes while protecting/providing access to the corner lot, and to seek outside partners/investors/developers/purchasers to develop that property. It is a far more reasonable and promising approach, and should turn out much better for him AND for Bricktown.

I definitely think it's a better approach than what was first proposed, and no one can complain about something that hasn't even been imagined yet. I'm just saying that unimaginative developers rarely get struck with inspiration to significantly improve on what they have done before. It happens, and it sounds like he will being doing it in partnership, but to date I haven't seen or heard anything that has raised my expectations. I'm probably just overly anxious about it, because I feel like that west lot could be the difference maker in whether we ever see the canal actually be what it was once promised as being. He probably can't do anything to break it, but a mediocre development there would probably seal the canal's fate as being what it is today for a long time. Now, that wouldn't be a total disaster, but I think the upper canal could be much more than it is today and realizing that potential hinges on that lot, imo. Done right it could even better connect bricktown to lower bricktown, which we already know is pretty much destined to be as is for a long time, but a better flow in and out of bricktown proper would help its appeal, imo.