Hopefully we are not duplicating money spent. In other words, 1-2 years from now I hope we aren't ripping out this new work for maps projects.

Just spoke to the City about this...

They are actually re-doing all the parking and sidewalks around Union Station.

Seems like odd timing given the pending construction of the first phase of Central Park, but glad to know they are investing in this great facility.

Sooooooooo..... the renderings we've seen of all grass and trees around US is actually now going to be parking and sidewalks, so there will be direct access by street to US? Maybe LarryOKC will get his magic streetcar route to US.


Hopefully we are not duplicating money spent. In other words, 1-2 years from now I hope we aren't ripping out this new work for maps projects.

Will probably most likely be the case. The city or ODOT does not learn from past mistakes. Remember when they rebuilt the westbound ramp at Robinson off the Crosstown even knowing that they were going to move I-40 a few years afterward? Too bad this money can't be spent elsewhere.

^^^
Thank you...Thank you very much....Please tip the wait staff...will be here all week

per next weeks DDR COPTA now has approval to demolish the walkways paving and parking lot

I guess they are trying to get the Admin approval out of the way so that the Hargreaves can just do whatever they want with the property in the context of the MAPS 3 park project. Just a guess, but that's what it sounds like. COTPA turning over the keys for the grounds, access, parking, and landscaping.

No, they are actually going to redo all the parking and sidewalks. I talked to the planner involved and there is a $650,000 building permit already issued.

Have absolutely no idea why they would be doing this now.

Does that strike you as a bit strange? lol.

Yes, someone should check into this.

You would think the City couldn't possibly be so crazy as to do this right before the first phase of Central Park, but we should know better by now.

That's a LOT of money...

You guys do know that the front drive has already been ripped out for at least a month, right?

You guys do know that the front drive has already been ripped out for at least a month, right?

i didn't .. but the approval was by staff ... so they could proceed right after they applied

Why are we spending this money on new sidewalks only to rip them out a year from now....

Does this city not talk to people across the hallway?

Seems silly and wasteful ... til one considers this is OKC. How many times was Reno redone by the arena?

Why are we spending this money on new sidewalks only to rip them out a year from now....

Does this city not talk to people across the hallway?

The problem is that it seriously discredits people from pointing to the budget to say we can't do quality bus service (or that if we do it, the streetcar has to go). If we can blow over $500,000 on a sidewalk that will be ripped out again in 3 years, or blow $100,000 a pop on consultants dozens of times a year, then we can do bus service right, AND we can do the streetcar right, too..

So much money.. and I'm not angry about it at all, because at the end of the day, this is still a very well-ran city and we get a lot of bang for our buck. But it just really makes you think of how much more bang for our buck we could be getting.

The problem is that it seriously discredits people from pointing to the budget to say we can't do quality bus service (or that if we do it, the streetcar has to go). If we can blow over $500,000 on a sidewalk that will be ripped out again in 3 years, or blow $100,000 a pop on consultants dozens of times a year, then we can do bus service right, AND we can do the streetcar right, too..

So much money.. and I'm not angry about it at all, because at the end of the day, this is still a very well-ran city and we get a lot of bang for our buck. But it just really makes you think of how much more bang for our buck we could be getting.

I'd rather that 500 grand go into some sidewalks where they are needed. I just hate to see half a million dollars (equivalent to 15 years of my salary) wasted and thrown away in 3 years.

I was in Union Station again last week and I'm so excited about that building's potential.

The paving/parking/sidewalk project around this structure is almost complete and looking closer at the latest plans for Central Park, it does seem as if they plan to keep all of it. So, that is probably why they decided to do it now.

I found this on Union Station in the latest Hargreaves report on Cental Park; besides the recommendations for the large waiting room and the docks, they also recommend converting the small waiting area to a cafe.



The Design Team envisions that Union Station will become the architectural heart of the Downtown Public Park. Although the MAPS 3 budget does not accommodate renovation of Union Station, the Design Team recommends that Union Station be renovated and reprogrammed (through a separate budget) with park-supportive uses such as weddings and events, an informal food venue/ beer garden venue, park info/ administration offi ces, bike and equipment rentals, and park maintenance facilities. HR&A, the Design Team’s economics consultant, believes that a revitalized Union Station has the potential to generate a significant amount of earned income for the Park.


Potential Park-Supportive Uses

Large Passenger Waiting Room:

Indoor-Outdoor Event, Wedding, Meeting Facilities
Informal Food Venue or Beer Garden
Visitor Center, Park Information, Security
Covered Patio with movable tables and chairs


Warehouse Area (docks):

Park Administration Offices
Relocated COTPA Offices (transportation related)
Bike and Equipment rental (transportation related)
Park Maintenance, Support, and Storage
Indoor Fitness, Play, Tour Orientation
Non-profit Offices, Educational Facilities




http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/unionstation101013.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/unionstation101013a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/unionstation101013b.jpg

I like their thinking on this. All those uses sound great, and eminently doable.

Hopefully the funding for renovation doesn't become an issue. The part where they state "that a revitalized Union Station has the potential to generate a significant amount of earned income for the Park" should get someone's attention.

Its not the funding for the renovation thats the problem. Its the funding to buy the building from the Federal Goverment. The building has been restored with federal transportation money. You are thinking of the wrong building.

Doesn't the City own Union Station???

According to the County Assessor, it's owned by the Central Oklahoma Transportation Authority (COPTA), which is a City department.

I'm sure the plan is to move out COPTA, or at least move them into the back of the structure. They are only using a fraction of the building now; I would guess they no more than a couple dozen of employees at that location.

Pete: that was my understanding also so I was curious about lasomeday's statement..."to buy the building from the Federal Goverment."??

It may be that if the building isn't used for transit than the fed gov would need to be repaid for the grant.

However, if COPTA stays (in the back of the building) I wonder if that might satisfy the requirement. It may also be why the consultants are focusing on some sort of transportation use, at least for part of the structure.

It may be that if the building isn't used for transit than the fed gov would need to be repaid for the grant.

However, if COPTA stays (in the back of the building) I wonder if that might satisfy the requirement. It may also be why the consultants are focusing on some sort of transportation use, at least for part of the structure.

**COTPA ....Central Oklahoma Transportation & Parking Authority

It may be that if the building isn't used for transit than the fed gov would need to be repaid for the grant.

However, if COPTA stays (in the back of the building) I wonder if that might satisfy the requirement. It may also be why the consultants are focusing on some sort of transportation use, at least for part of the structure.
Yet another reason to utilize it as a Streetcar stop and a mini-version of an intermodal hub for all of the Park related activities

Yet another reason to utilize it as a Streetcar stop and a mini-version of an intermodal hub for all of the Park related activities

If and when residential surrounds the central park in the core-to-shore area, yes, I agree that union station would be a prime stop, either for Phase II of the extended streetcar route or part of a future east/west commuter line via the stingy Union Pacific RR line.

It seems COTPA using the space now satisfies whatever federal requirement there may be, so I would assume that keeping them there would serve the same purpose.

As mentioned, it's a relatively small staff and they can be housed in the back or interior of the building, freeing the two large former waiting rooms for events, cafes, etc.

The exterior of the building is in excellent shape so if we could find an events/restaurant operator -- ala the Myriad Gardens restaurants -- they could pay for an required interior improvements.

Tom Elmore, at it again. A comment from Steve's chat today:

Couch was one of those who gleefully threw in with ODOT to unnecessarily destroy OKC Union Station's rail facility and its direct connections to Will Rogers World Airport and Tinker.

This is not the work of "pro-transit people."

It was the strongest message Couch / Cornett / Humphreys could conceivably have sent to perceptive voters -- because it needlessly destroyed the last, best urban rail passenger center remaining unused in the nation and a set of existing rail connections and other boons that, as late Dallas Area Rapid Transit board member Dr. Dan Monaghan stated, "Dallas would have killed for...."

That cut no ice with the likes of Couch.

I keep wondering -- does anybody but me "get it" yet?

Here's what was being funded by 14-year Oklahoma 5th District Congressman Ernest J. Istook for his pals in Utah and Arizona as he simultaneously funded the slobbering, knuckle-dragging obsession of McCaleb / Ridley / Cornett / Humphreys / Couch / Salyer (et al) to destroy the 12-track-wide, 8-block-long, at-grade OKCUS yard, its three platforms and their expensive and elegant underground passage ways to the 55,000 sq. ft. Union Station Terminal Building --

(By the way, JIM --- where's the "Bus Rapid Transit" in Salt Lake? And, uh -- one more point, JIM -- UTAH is where Tinker's competitor, Hill AFB is located. San Antonio, you might remember, already LOST its "Air Logistics Center." And you "wanna be like them," I guess. 60 daily, fast, modern Frontrunner commuter trains link Salt Lake / Provo and Ogden to each other -- via HILL -- now the ONLY USAF Air Logistics Center in the nation with "oil-crisis-proof-workforce-mobility." Frontrunner is the commuter rail component of what is now a viable, strategically redundant transportation system hedging around the Wasatch front range in the event that "something goes wrong in the Middle East tomorrow morning." Not much likelihood of THAT, huh? JIM? And -- had you heard that the US Secretary of Defense has lately announced that the "latest downsizing of the US Military" is now underway? JIM? JIM?) --

Grand Opening of FrontRunner South - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBQu2vwSXMY)
OKC Central Chat transcript, Sept. 5, 2014 | News OK (http://newsok.com/article/5339071/)

Has Tom not been paying attention to the Central OK Go work? Weird... Crazy only gets crazier with age, I suppose.

Oh yeah, now I remember why I thought that guy was crazy.

OKCTalk - Union Station to be renovated, become home to Arts Council (http://www.okctalk.com/content/66-union-station-renovated-become-home-arts-council.html)

I can't tell you how happy this makes me.

Union Station is my favorite building in OKC and this seems like the perfect use.

Don't know if their will be a cafe, but hopefully that will be added at some point.

The covered loggia overlooking the park with views of the skyline beyond would make the perfect setting.

I can't tell you how happy this makes me.

Union Station is my favorite building in OKC and this seems like the perfect use.

Don't know if their will be a cafe, but hopefully that will be added at some point.

The covered loggia overlooking the park with views of the skyline beyond would make the perfect setting.

Just curious, why do so you like this building? I'm not familiar with it, so I thought I'd ask.

Just curious, why do so you like this building? I'm not familiar with it, so I thought I'd ask.

Because it's amazing (see the photos) and it's very well preserved.

It's just so cool in general and the way it will tie into the park will make it all the more special.

I may be more excited about this than First National.

Very cool that plans to renovate both these structures were revealed just two days apart!

So is the plan for them to occupy the entire building? Wasn't their a plan for a restaurant in part of the space?

I believe they will take a good portion and the remainder will be for exhibits and events -- mainly the two former waiting rooms.

There has never been any formal plans for the building prior to this, just speculation that it would make for a good cafe and events space.

Pete, I share your enthusiasm in seeing this great structure open and useful again. I remember marveling at it in the early sixties. You're almost correct about this being the perfect use. It would have made a great train station. Again, I share your enthusiasm.

TT

This is a week of great news...yet another awesome plan! I was a bit concerned wit where the Arts Council was going to end up. Mainly that they would end up on the NW side somewhere in some boring office tower instead of downtown (where they belong). And what a great use for the old station! We're really seeing some great news this week from all kinds of angles, and it's very exciting.

I'm sure there will be detractors from the multimodal camp, but I personally feel that the ship left long ago for this building being able to serve that purpose.

This is fantastic news. I can't think of a better tenant for this gem of a building.

I stare at this building every time I drive down i-40. Easily the most interesting landmark along the entire new stretch of i-40.

So happy that they have found a good use for this building and this almost guarantees the arts festival will be held in the new park, right?

So happy that they have found a good use for this building and this almost guarantees the arts festival will be held in the new park, right?

I'm sure that hasn't been decided yet but it's an interesting question.

With Stage Center and the the Arts Council gone from the current site, the only real reason for staying is the Myriad Gardens. But there will soon be a new park all around Union Station, so it seems it may make sense to move it, as there would be even more space.

Would also allow them to incorporate Union Station and indoor exhibits into the festival.

In fact, this might allow the Council to do more frequent, similar events at other times during the year since streets wouldn't have to be closed.

for me it makes perfect sense to have the Festival of the arts in the new park once complete.. its a great fit.

why does it only have to be in the new park? MBG is close enough, right? The river district is close by too, right?

Why not incorporate both/all; have the bulk of it in the new park while still utilizing the programming features of MBG (the performance venues, exhibits, and play areas); and perhaps something fun to do at the Boathouse/River district. This would allow the Festival of the Arts to G R O W and perhaps be the largest in the state (finally) and one of the premier in the nation perhaps. You might even be able to eventually throw in Farmers Market and Wheeler district (ferris wheel, anyone?) in the fairly near future.

With the new park and MBG, OKC could shoot for all of the festivals to be on a grand scale. Talk about national attention. .., I ONLY know of Chicago (which always hosts the biggest festivals (arts, taste, etc) btw) that scales at this level OKC potentially has.

sorry to detract a little from union station in the above post; but it is Union Station related in that it is the anchor of the new park.

I did get excited at the potential for Union Park to be a huge game-changer for downtown and OKC in general. To be able to link all of the existing and new civic features into something that truly could compete with the biggest/best of all (Chicago), that speaks volumes to MAPS and how far OKC has come. It's hard not to be excited at OKC realizing its incredible potential.

I say, build that airport expansion because we very likely might actually need it since we will have these excellent downtown venues plus a new convention center to offer. ... W oO W!

I'm sure that hasn't been decided yet but it's an interesting question.

With Stage Center and the the Arts Council gone from the current site, the only real reason for staying is the Myriad Gardens. But there will soon be a new park all around Union Station, so it seems it may make sense to move it, as there would be even more space.

Would also allow them to incorporate Union Station and indoor exhibits into the festival.

In fact, this might allow the Council to do more frequent, similar events at other times during the year since streets wouldn't have to be closed.

I wonder how much business they lose at lunchtime if they move outside of walking distance from the core. When I was at 1 N Hudson, there were streams of people walking over everyday from the business district to eat lunch and walk around. We generally would go over 1-3 times a day and we wouldn't do that if that far away. May not matter but would be interesting to know.

^

Great point.

These are from the latest Hargeaves presentation on Central Park. I'll be posting more images in that thread but wanted to include these here because they pertain directly to how Union Station might be integrated.



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/cp082714union.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/cp082714union1.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/cp082714union2.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/cp082714union3.jpg

Tom Elmore, at it again. A comment from Steve's chat today:

Couch was one of those who gleefully threw in with ODOT to unnecessarily destroy OKC Union Station's rail facility and its direct connections to Will Rogers World Airport and Tinker.

This is not the work of "pro-transit people."

It was the strongest message Couch / Cornett / Humphreys could conceivably have sent to perceptive voters -- because it needlessly destroyed the last, best urban rail passenger center remaining unused in the nation and a set of existing rail connections and other boons that, as late Dallas Area Rapid Transit board member Dr. Dan Monaghan stated, "Dallas would have killed for...."

That cut no ice with the likes of Couch.

I keep wondering -- does anybody but me "get it" yet?

Here's what was being funded by 14-year Oklahoma 5th District Congressman Ernest J. Istook for his pals in Utah and Arizona as he simultaneously funded the slobbering, knuckle-dragging obsession of McCaleb / Ridley / Cornett / Humphreys / Couch / Salyer (et al) to destroy the 12-track-wide, 8-block-long, at-grade OKCUS yard, its three platforms and their expensive and elegant underground passage ways to the 55,000 sq. ft. Union Station Terminal Building --

(By the way, JIM --- where's the "Bus Rapid Transit" in Salt Lake? And, uh -- one more point, JIM -- UTAH is where Tinker's competitor, Hill AFB is located. San Antonio, you might remember, already LOST its "Air Logistics Center." And you "wanna be like them," I guess. 60 daily, fast, modern Frontrunner commuter trains link Salt Lake / Provo and Ogden to each other -- via HILL -- now the ONLY USAF Air Logistics Center in the nation with "oil-crisis-proof-workforce-mobility." Frontrunner is the commuter rail component of what is now a viable, strategically redundant transportation system hedging around the Wasatch front range in the event that "something goes wrong in the Middle East tomorrow morning." Not much likelihood of THAT, huh? JIM? And -- had you heard that the US Secretary of Defense has lately announced that the "latest downsizing of the US Military" is now underway? JIM? JIM?) --

Grand Opening of FrontRunner South - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBQu2vwSXMY)
OKC Central Chat transcript, Sept. 5, 2014 | News OK (http://newsok.com/article/5339071/)

What I didn't notice about this is the three other comments he made five days later:

Tom Elmore · Top Commenter · Researcher/Consultant at Self-Employed

See the video at the streetfilms.org link below.

Here's what Oklahoma's 14-year, 5th District Congressman was funding and supporting for the hometown of his church -- while he was funding the destruction of OKC's amazing, existing rail network from OKC Union Station.

Make no mistake that guys like Jim Couch and Mick Cornett ("most pro-transit mayor in the history of OKC," I was told by former Cornett assistant David Holt -- right before he threatened, presumably in the name of his boss -- to "sic a thousand cops on me" if I didn't quit protecting OKC Union Station's rail yard) -- who backed this robbery of our grandchildren of gifts that they, themselves, could never have given.

Streetfilms | Salt Lake City: A Red State Capital Builds Ambitious Transit (http://www.streetfilms.org/salt-lake-city-utah-a-conservative-state-builds-progressive-transit/)

September 10 at 1:14pm

And then:

Tom Elmore · Top Commenter · Researcher/Consultant at Self-Employed

OKLAHOMANS TAKEN FOR A RIDE -- the case for the preservation and reuse of OKC Union Station's elegant, at-grade, 12-track-wide, 8-block-long rail passenger yard. Ignored and trampled by Jim Couch, Mick Cornett and their pals at ODOT.

Oklahomans Taken for a Ride - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNEHAO_GOVQ)

September 10 at 1:20pm

And finally:

Tom Elmore · Top Commenter · Researcher/Consultant at Self-Employed

An explanation for the betrayal of all Oklahomans embodied in the unnecessary destruction of OKC Union Station's magnificent rail center?

Quite simple, actually.

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fdc.streetsblog.org%2F2013%2F0 1%2F30%2Fthe-revolving-door-oklahomas-gary-ridley-asphalt-lobbyist-dot-chief%2F&h=_AQHfrZvy

September 10 at 1:27pm

Elmore doesn't know how to convey his message without pissing people off. As a result everyone tunes him out. I learned long ago that it doesn't matter how good your point may be, if you can't convince people it doesn't matter.

I'm really annoyed that this park is ignoring the Harvey Spine.

I'm really annoyed that this park is ignoring the Harvey Spine.

Is it they actually ignore it, or is it they may actully be clueless as to the look, feel and purpose of having a spine?

Is it they actually ignore it, or is it they may actully be clueless as to the look, feel and purpose of having a spine?
Ya. I hear spinelessness is an incurable condition.

Things are still moving forward for the Arts Council to make this their new home.

I suspect it won't be official until after the Clayco deal is signed with OCURA (deal is still being finalized), after which things will likely move pretty quickly.

As part of their deal with OCURA, Clayco would help par for the relocation of the Arts Council and the other arts tenant which would go to the new Main Street Garage.

I found out some interesting information yesterday. Basically, this building can be "sold" to the City of OKC by COTPA as long as the funds generated go to enhance or expand transit facilities. Until that occurs, Union Station can only be used for transit purposes. Right now, it is simply the chief administrative offices for COTPA/EMBARK although the plans before the relocation of the Crosstown were much grander.

Previous plans did not address the technical challenges that the facility faced. Namely, trains traveling north and south would have been required to do a "back in" maneuver. The facility was never well suited for the type of system that is planned for today.

The FTA only recently clarified what COTPA can and can't do with this facility. So, the question remains as to where (who's budget) the money will come from to pay COTPA for the facility? And the other question will be what is an acceptable use of the funds to the FTA? Where will the money be invested?

Anyway, the facility potentially has a bright future since these federal mandated shackles can be unlocked. At a minimum, you could say that the FTA requirements on the building itself has helped preserve a historic piece of grand architecture.

In all honesty, Union Station's useful life for transportation purposes is not over. The station could eventually be returned to a rail transportation use for the Eastern Flyer, and/or if an E-W commuter rail line ever comes to fruition. ODOT left enough room around UP's tracks that at least one more pair of rails and a platform could be squeezed in down there - maybe even two. The platform tunnel would have to be rebuilt - or an at-grade walkway would have to be established - but it would certainly be doable.

With the city pushing hard to integrate Union Station into the Central Park plans, however... that train's most likely left the station. :P

I thought the ability to receive trains had been removed. Also, seems adverse at this point to not have everything funnel through the inter-modal hub.

Sort of. The original wide rail yard, with it's many platforms connected to Union Station by an underground tunnel, was obliterated for the I-40 relocation project. Formerly, Union Pacific's East-West rail line (linking El Reno to Shawnee) and BNSF's Northeast-Southwest rail line (linking Tulsa to Lawton, and going right by the airport) served the station. Today, only a single track Union Pacific East-West line remains, in a rail trench right between I-40 and Union Station. However, there's enough space there that new platforms and a rail siding could be constructed, including rebuilding the underground tunnel. All of this would be much smaller than what the station was originally capable of handling, however.

In all honesty, Union Station's useful life for transportation purposes is not over. The station could eventually be returned to a rail transportation use for the Eastern Flyer, and/or if an E-W commuter rail line ever comes to fruition.

Yeah... I don't see this happening... at all. Technically its possible, but the ADA issues are a concern and Santa Fe Station pretty much resolves all needs for the next 60 years. Plus, the park will eventually be served by the streetcar system.

Union Station will likely never be used for passenger rail ever again. If such a possibility were promoted, it would come at significant expense and with legal and political constraints. Its a shame though that the facillity has been expunged of it's original purpose though. I totally have the nostalgic feelings too.

This was all hashed out here ad infinitum when the I40 relocation was being discussed. Nothing has changed.

UP, just to clarify: I wasn't really saying that it would happen, merely that it could. If the political will and money were there, it could happen - mostly because there's no simple connection between the E-W Union Pacific line and the N-S BNSF line, and building a direct connection would be tricky, at best. Additionally, BNSF's N-S line through OKC is an extremely busy line, which I could very easily see causing growing pains at Santa Fe Station once the Eastern Flyer and commuter rail are all up and running together, along with the Heartland Flyer and existing freight traffic. IF Union Station were ever reactivated for passenger service, we wouldn't be the only city to utilize multiple train stations downtown. Chicago, for instance, has 4 stations downtown that all serve different regional commuter routes for Metra (as well as Amtrak service in at least one): Chicago Union Station, Ogilvie Transportation Center, LaSalle Street Station, and Millennium Station. I know Chicago is much larger than OKC, but it is merely one example to illustrate my point.

Anyway, you're probably right - the reality of the situation is that unless there is some radical shift in ideology or demographics, Union Station unfortunately won't see another passenger.

In the most recent MAPS board meeting, the park architects recommended the following configuration for Union Station.

Although not within the MAPS scope, it's clear the architects are working with the city to figure out how to best use the facility and we should have a more detailed plan. Not sure where the funding is going to come from but obviously the city has some ideas which I suspect include TIF.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/union020316.jpg