Saudi oil minister: High oil price unjustified

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia

Saudi Arabia's oil minister says the current high oil price is unjustifiable and that speculation over the future oil markets is mainly behind the hike.

Ali Naimi told reporters the lower demand for Saudi oil in March compared to February was a sign of an existing surplus on the global market.

He says large quantities of oil were available as commercial stockpile or surplus production in some oil-producing countries.

Naimi spoke after a meeting on Tuesday with Dutch Economic Affairs Minister Maxime Verhagen.

Saudi Arabia is the world's largest oil exporter, with the capacity to pump 12.5 million barrels.

In March, the kingdom cut daily output to 8.3 million, from 9.1 million barrels in February.

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9MMP3LO0.htm

Lead story on ABC news a couple of days ago, MIT study and other economists show high prices have little to do with supply, there is plenty, and more to do with speculation in the oil markets.

http://abcnews.go.com/watch/world-news-with-diane-sawyer/SH5585921/VD55122592/world-news-418-whats-causing--gas-prices-to-rise

OPEC is not fully producing because of lack of demand, refineries are running at 81% capacity, oil companies are raking in the money and speculators are driving up prices.

Well - whatever the reason for high gas prices is a state-wide rail system would do great things for towns and cities all over the state. I was looking at some of the old downtowns in the communities I have put stations in and this would breath new life into them. I had no idea how cool and busy downtown Miami was.

BTW - it is called inflation. All the QE1 and QE2 money has to go somewhere. QE3 is rummored to be 4X bigger and will be here in July.

What if you could buy an annual rail pass for $200 per person (kids under 6 free) and it was unlimited rides, but instead of just Ft Worth it was this:

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/OKRail-1.jpg

Kerry, this would be totally awesome. It would be great to take the train to SE Oklahoma, as long as there was a shuttle service to get you to cabins, etc. in the Beavers Bend area.

Putting 100 billion dollars of printed "free" money into the system each month causes speculation, go figure.


The dollar is below the low it set in 2009. The next lowest low after that is the 2008 low which was set right before everthing collapsed.

got to love it...over the past few years various "reasons" have been given for the rise in oil/gasoline prices

Demand is up
Demand is down
Supply is up
Supply is down
Dollar is strong
Dollar is weak
Inflation
Deflation
Strong economy
Weak economy
Too many tax breaks
Not enough tax breaks
Gasoline taxes too high
Gasoline taxes too low

got to love it...over the past few years various "reasons" have been given for the rise in oil/gasoline prices

Demand is up
Demand is down
Supply is up
Supply is down
Dollar is strong
Dollar is weak
Inflation
Deflation
Strong economy
Weak economy
Too many tax breaks
Not enough tax breaks
Gasoline taxes too high
Gasoline taxes too low


...from Active Trader Magazine -- October 2008


http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n167/cameron405/okctalk/Sarkozy.gif

The tube in London isn't running single-car DMUs 2 or 3 times a day per line. They are running thousands of trains every day and have 275 stations. They are also running through and under some of the most expensive real-estate in the world and some of the highest wages on the planet. A state-wide system in Oklahoma using existing track would cost pennies compared to the London Tube system. Take my Sayer to OKC route for example. We are talking 2 trains a day each way. Here is a picture of a single-car DMU (no way it would cost near as much to run these as it does to operate the London Tube). Heck, they could even be converted to run on CNG.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4128/5090125709_cb8c762df5.jpg

Here is a link to the early phase of a similar system in Oregon.
http://www.trainweb.org/mccann/wes.htm
and here
http://trimet.org/wes/

a link from you site you posted http://trimet.org/fares/index.htm

almost a 1000 an annual pass

Kerry, this would be totally awesome. It would be great to take the train to SE Oklahoma, as long as there was a shuttle service to get you to cabins, etc. in the Beavers Bend area.

It won't take long for tour groups to setup operations near train station to pick up passengers. In addition to shuttle operations at Beaver Bend I can envision open air buses offering tours of the Wichita mountains and Turner Falls, gambling shuttles out of Marietta and Norman, and even employers providing shuttle service. It would open up the whole state to everyone and many people would go place they probably would otherwise never go. Take Miami for example - I lived in Oklahoma for 5 years and never once thought of going there. If I had a rail pass I would have done it if for no other reason than it would have been free for me to do so. As it turns out I missed something pretty cool. Small communities in Oklahoma have lots of nice little downtowns and this could bring them back to life.

What if you could buy an annual rail pass for $200 per person (kids under 6 free) and it was unlimited rides

Sounds nice and it would be amazing to ride around Oklahoma on trains for 50 cents a day, but if that were the case also pigs would fly.

An unlimited OKC bus pass costs $600 annually. In Norman, CART is $240 annually. The Sooner Express, which is a busy route that is comparable to one tiny segment of a "state rail" with just a few trips each day, also costs $600 annually.

Sounds nice and it would be amazing to ride around Oklahoma on trains for 50 cents a day, but if that were the case also pigs would fly.

An unlimited OKC bus pass costs $600 annually. In Norman, CART is $240 annually. The Sooner Express, which is a busy route that is comparable to one tiny segment of a "state rail" with just a few trips each day, also costs $600 annually.

Those are both subsidised aren't they? I'm not against what Kerry is selling. We need mass trans but it won't be free.

a link from you site you posted http://trimet.org/fares/index.htm

almost a 1000 an annual pass

That includes buses, light rail, commuter rail, and street car.

I just threw the $200 figure out there because that was the dollar amount mentioned for 4 people going on the Heartland Flier. For all I know it could cost $500 a year. Keep this in mind though - it cost far more to operate a bus than it does to operate a single car DMU. CSX says its trains can move one ton of freight 500 miles on a single gallon of diesel fuel. You won't be doing that with a bus. Trains also cost far less to maintain than buses.

For example - Bus from OKC to Norman. 40 passeners @ 200 lbs each = 8,000 lbs divided by 2000 lbs = 4 tons. It is 20 miles and takes 2 gallons of fuel. That is 80 ton miles divided by 2 gallons = 40 ton miles/gallon. The train is 12X more efficient than a bus. Run that single-car DMU on CNG and price wise it becomes 36X cheaper to run a train than to run a bus the same distance.

http://www.csx.com/index.cfm/about-csx/projects-and-partnerships/fuel-efficiency/



Moving freight by rail is 3 times more fuel efficient than moving freight on the highway. Trains can move a ton of freight nearly 500 miles on a single gallon of fuel. Efficient use of fuel means fewer greenhouse gas emissions for our planet.

Fuel efficiency for trains is measured in terms of ton-miles, because the length and weight of trains varies greatly. We are constantly working to improve our efficiency. In 2009, CSX trains averaged 468 miles per gallon per ton.

All those systems mentioned above also use tracks that were part of huge capital investments. My system is designed to use existing track that goes un-used for most of the year. Most of the tracks in my system only have weekly trains unless it is during harvest season.

Sort of a side track, but when did moderators here start deciding which comments to delete at their whim? There was an entire discussion going on in this thread that is gone now.

Sort of a side track, but when did moderators here start deciding which comments to delete at their whim? There was an entire discussion going on in this thread that is gone now.

At first I didn't think they deleted anything, but there was a whole conversation I had with Kerry about how I originally thought that the train was going to stop at every dot and he corrected me. Nothing against the mods, I think this site is a great service to the community, but I don't think there was any part of that conversation that was bad.

Bomber - what else is missing?

At first I didn't think they deleted anything, but there was a whole conversation I had with Kerry about how I originally thought that the train was going to stop at every dot and he corrected me. Nothing against the mods, I think this site is a great service to the community, but I don't think there was any part of that conversation that was bad.

Bomber - what else is missing?

That was in another thread - we had two threads talking about the same thing basically so I just moved the conversation to this one. Maybe the mods could make one thread and combine the two. Here was the other one: http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=25443

What if you could buy an annual rail pass for $200 per person (kids under 6 free) and it was unlimited rides, but instead of just Ft Worth it was this:

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/OKRail-1.jpg

Most cities I have been and used public transportation are doing good to keep public transplantation tickets under $50 dollars per person per month, and this is not even leaving the metropolitan area. Not to mention you are then paying with time as well though (which for many is more valuable than fuel), as even on fairly good systems it is not unusual to take twice as long to get to certain areas verses driving (with the possible exception of rush hours in the cities with far worse traffic than OKC)

Most cities I have been and used public transportation are doing good to keep public transplantation tickets under $50 dollars per person per month, and this is not even leaving the metropolitan area. Not to mention you are then paying with time as well though (which for many is more valuable than fuel), as even on fairly good systems it is not unusual to take twice as long to get to certain areas verses driving (with the possible exception of rush hours in the cities with far worse traffic than OKC)

I am still working on the plan. I just completed what the final route version will look like and I am going to break it down into implementation phases. One thing to keep in mind is that the system I am proposing is far different than most systems. Most of my service will be on low volume single-car DMUs. Most routes will only have one or two trains a day each way so operation cost should be kept to a minimum. I am also using exisiting track which will greatly reduce capital costs. Most of the track is agricultural in nature and is not used for long periods of time so scheduling should not be an issue.

My goal is to have the first local trains of the day reach Lawton, OKC, or Tulsa by 9AM with return trips starting at 5PM. This should allow even the most remote towns to board no earlier than 6AM and be home by 8PM. During the mid-day, trips will not cover the full route. For example, the blue line might only have mid-day runs from Guthrie to Purcell while the yellow might only do El Reno to Shawnee. Trains between the hubs will be dual-car DMU that are capable of faster speeds and can carry more people. Express trips between Lawton, Oklahoma City, and Tulsa will start earlier and end later.

Finally, I am not trying to compete with cars. My system is based on the idea that over the next 5 years cars will not be an option for many people due to fuel costs. Oklahoma will need a reliable state-wide system to keep commerce going with higher fuel costs.

Here is my final version:

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/route_map.jpg

Interesting idea, but to be feasible it seems to me fuel will have to get much higher along with a complete failure of electric, CNG and any other alternative automobile power methods for it to work for passenger transportation in Oklahoma. Freight is probably far more important to have a plan for quick lose of petroleum fuel supplies (or dramatic increase in costs) and trains already carries nearly half of all cargo by weight carries per mile in the US, which is much better than some of the countries people say we should base our transportation system on.

I think higher far higher fuel prices are coming and electric/CNG/other have already become a complete failure before they even got started (I still can't buy a new car with CNG). The first phase of this system wouldn't even be running for 5 years if the State started planning it today.

$4 dollar gas, already there if you don't want ethanol and use 91 octane like my car requires. But...4 isn't where it's stopping. Brace yourself for $6 a gallon by summer!

Removed by user

Kerry, SE OK's Green Country doesn't fare all that well under this. Is it a lack of existing lines, terrain or something else?
Seems something from Muskogee to say Sallisaw or Poteau, o McAlester to Wilburton or Idabel to Antlers would bring huge chunks of the se within much easier access. Daily service would probably be too much though

I am an OKCer living in Japan. The public transportation system here is second to none. Millions rely on them each day. You would think that because of this that people rely less and less on cars. For daily commuting, this is certainly true. However, almost 60% of these commuters own cars and use them regularly. So, the use of trains to car ration is about 50%. Basically, when the Japanese need to get somewhere quick, they often use the public transit. But more leisurely, they will use cars. I think this would be the same in Oklahoma it the proposed rail system were implemented. It is true, we Oklahomans love their cars and I don't think you will ever seen us divorce them completely. In the same light, if people saw an efficient low cost rail system in action. They would use it. I know I would.

Kerry, SE OK's Green Country doesn't fare all that well under this. Is it a lack of existing lines, terrain or something else?
Seems something from Muskogee to say Sallisaw or Poteau, o McAlester to Wilburton or Idabel to Antlers would bring huge chunks of the se within much easier access. Daily service would probably be too much though

I was going to take the Muskogee line all the way to Ft Smith I just forgot to add it. One of the big problems in SE is a lack existing lines and the ones that are there have lots of turns which slows it down. That part of the state might only get service on weekends or 3X per week. My goal is really to connect rural Oklahoma to urbanized Oklahoma and not rural Oklahoma to rural Oklahoma. The system will also allow connecting serive to other states.

Instead of posting all the pictures here I started a website. If anyone has any other ideas let me know as this is a work in progress.

https://sites.google.com/site/okcrail/

On edit - I extended the Muskogee route to Ft. Gibson, Gore, Vian, Sallisaw, Muldrow, and Ft Smith. I'll update my website soon.

I would just ride a bike. You can do 4 miles in 20 minutes and not even break a sweat.

Yep

I've been thinking about ordering an electric bike or electric bike kit before this recent increase in gas prices. Still might.

It's too bad the breaking point on NEVs in Oklahoma is 35 MPH while many of our main corridors are 40 MPH. I'd like to see that match up or some other strategy implemented so they could be used effectively around town.

Federal DOT allows them to be used on streets up to 45 mph but OK state law is 35.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhood_Electric_Vehicle

I've been thinking about ordering an electric bike or electric bike kit before this recent increase in gas prices. Still might.

I had a friend who bought an electric bike to ride to work. It didn't work out well for him.

1. Day 1 - battery died on the way to work. He said it was very hard to ride with a dead battery due to the extra weight of the battery.
2. Day 2 - Ran into a car that pulled out in front of him. He said he was going too fast on the bicycle.
3. Day 3 - Put the bike on Ebay.

If I had to do it I would get one of these. They go 80 mph and get 75 mpg. At the low end they go 40 mph and get 90 mpg.

http://www.vespausa.com/

http://www.travelizmo.com/archives/vespa-lxv-150-scooter-2009-1.jpg

http://brammo.com/store/images/P/store_empulse1-01.jpg


Brammo Empulse
100MPH 100 mile range.

http://brammo.com/store/empulse6/

I'd spring for this before I'd buy a Vespa

Starting at $10,000 that isn't bad but the Vespa starts at $3,200. That is a difference of $6,800. At $4 per gallon that is 1,700 gallons and at 90 mpg that is 153,000 miles just to break even on the $10G bike. My guess is no one would ride either of these for 153,000 miles. At 8 miles per day (distance in the original post) it would take 52 years to do that. While the electric bike looks pretty cool I would probably still go with the Vespa. Either way it is better than driving any car if reducing fuel cost is the goal.

Thats assuming a flat $4/gal. I don't think anyone thinks of this as the highest gas will get...

Thats assuming a flat $4/gal. I don't think anyone thinks of this as the highest gas will get...

Even at $8 per gallon it would take the electric bike 26 years to break-even (and that is assuming the electricity is free).

If money were the only consideration, you would be better off with an electric assist bicycle. Or just a bicycle.

If money were the only consideration, you would be better off with an electric assist bicycle. Or just a bicycle.

No doubt style and speed play a part.

I'm happy that we decided to get reasonable 4 cyl vehicles (1 medium car and 1 small suv) instead of going all 'okie' and insisting that we HAVE to purchase a tahoe for her and a 4 door pickup for me as daily commuters. I knew gas prices were going to come back up - it was just a matter of time.

Dont get me wrong, I loved having a truck but after not having one for over a decade i learned that I can rent one from Home Depot or Uhaul for 19.99 + gas if there is something that I absolutely cannot fit in our vehicles. It cost around $100 (38-48ish each) dollars each week to fill up and i cant even image what it would be if I still had a truck. Plus I dont constantly get bugged to help people move.

If we ever had enough land that truely justified owning another one then i would go all manly and get an old beater that i would just use on the weekends and as a farm truck.

I'm happy that we decided to get reasonable 4 cyl vehicles (1 medium car and 1 small suv) instead of going all 'okie' and insisting that we HAVE to purchase a tahoe for her and a 4 door pickup for me as daily commuters. I knew gas prices were going to come back up - it was just a matter of time.

I was thinking of getting a pick-up myself but we already spend enough money filling up the Armada. I need a pick-up to make Home Depot runs and other stuff so now I am thinking about buying a small 4X8 trailer instead and using the Armada to pull it. I have a place to store the trailer that is not far from the house and just a few blocks from both Lowes and Home Depot so I could get it as I need it.

I have updated my website with a revised route map and 7 phase implementation schedule.

https://sites.google.com/site/okcrail/home

If money were the only consideration, you would be better off with an electric assist bicycle. Or just a bicycle.

Bicycle wins with the added health benefit.

Just for giggles, I decided to see what the system would look like if I added Kansas to the mix. I am also working on a version to include Nebraska.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/Oklahoma-Kansas-Rail.jpg

You can't go up to Missouri and bypass Springfield. If you're going to have a stop at every heehaw place along the line, then why would you not hit somewhere like Joplin and Springfield?

You can't go up to Missouri and bypass Springfield. If you're going to have a stop at every heehaw place along the line, then why would you not hit somewhere like Joplin and Springfield?

I have not done Missouri yet. This is just Oklahoma and Kansas. One thing to keep in mind is that this system is designed for two types of trains. Single car DMUs will serve local stops with limited serive times (inbound in the AM and outbound in the PM). The major cities (denoted by the larger circles) would also be served by high speed express trains. By high speed I mean between 75 and 100 mph. The express trains will still be low capacity (300 passengers max) but will run every hour.

If you wanted to go from Oklahoma City to Kansas City you could either take the express train via Wichita or Tulsa. On the Wichita route the train would start in OKC and stop in Wichita and Topeka, then arrive in Kansas City. On the Tulsa route it would start in Oklahoma City, stop in Tulsa, then arrive in Kansas City. The express trains would not stop at the smaller towns. OKC to Kansas City at 100 mph with one stop.

Just finished adding Nebraska to the route map.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/Oklahoma-Kansas-NebraskaRail2.jpg