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Well, if this ain't just flat-out interesting: http://www.newsok.com/skirvin-owners-pitch-plans-to-make-landmark-the-citys-headquarters-hotel/article/3556869?custom_click=lead_story_title


Skirvin owners pitch plans to make landmark the city's headquarters hotel
Owners of downtown's Skirvin Hilton are making a pitch first made a century ago — that the landmark be made the city's “headquarters hotel.”
BY STEVE LACKMEYER
Published: April 9, 2011

John Weeman, of Skirvin Partners, and Bill Otto, president of Marcus Hotels and Resorts, have submitted a proposal to city officials that calls for a second [425] room tower to be built just north of the hotel, where a BancFirst drive-thru is now located. The Santa Fe Garage would be razed and replaced with a smaller parking structure and “gateway” that would connect the hotel via skywalk to a convention center in Bricktown along Main Street.

The convention center site, which currently consists of buildings owned by Don Karchmer and surface parking he leases from the city, was one of the finalists emerging from last month's meeting of the MAPS 3 convention center subcommittee.

“We think the north Bricktown site in combination with the Skirvin gives Oklahoma City a unique opportunity to build on the strengths of Oklahoma City as a convention venue,” Weeman said. “It's a once in a lifetime opportunity to create a link between the downtown core, where all the major hotels are located, and Bricktown, where all the wonderful things done with MAPS have been accomplished.”

Weeman argues the site holds up best to site selection criteria set by Populous, the Kansas City consultant hired by the city to determine the best locations for the $280 million convention center approved by voters as part of MAPS 3 in 2009.

Those criteria include proximity to Bricktown, downtown's restaurants, shops and entertainment venues and area hotels. Other criteria include civic presence, site feasibility and land acquisition costs.
***
Weeman is providing Populous and city officials with another argument for going with the proposal — an evaluation of existing and incoming hotel supply that shows a plunging occupancy if a full 600-room conference hotel is added to downtown. The city also has been advised it can expect to chip in at least $60 million for a new conference hotel.

The market could easier absorb a 425-room expansion of the Skirvin, Weeman said, and the city would be asked for “far less” subsidy than it would for a new 600-room hotel.

“The whole function of how to make it work will be the function of the same dream team that made the Skirvin work,” Weeman said. “At the Skirvin, you've got a great deal of the infrastructure already in place — we have a ballroom, we have the lobby, we have one restaurant on site.”

Read more: http://newsok.com/skirvin-owners-pitch-plans-to-make-landmark-the-citys-headquarters-hotel/article/3556869#ixzz1Izpi09RF

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/skirvin/skirvinexpansiondrawing.jpg


This [above] rendering shows how an expanded Skirvin Hilton Hotel would connect with a new convention center in Bricktown. The convention center would be built on the north side of Main Street, which is currently surface parking and office buildings owned by Don Karchmer. A new parking garage would be built across from the convention center on the south side of Main Street. The new room tower would be built north of the Skirvin, where a BancFirst drive-through is now located. The Santa Fe garage would be razed and replaced with a gateway that would connect with the new convention center via a skywalk, with offices and a new garage taking up the rest of the site.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/skirvin/skirvinexpansiondrawing2.jpg


[above] The Santa Fe Garage would be razed and replaced with a "gateway" that would connect the adjoining Skirvin Hilton with a convention center in Bricktown in a proposal being pitched by the hotel's owners. To the right of the gateway is a new office building the hotel owners propose could be a new home for the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber and the Oklahoma City Convention and Visitors Bureau.

Of course they did. But they fail. Why? If OKC is going to "move to the next level," it's not going to be with a small convention hotel. The Skirvin doesn't have the room count to be a serous convention hotel. Not even close.

It's a wonderful boutique hotel -- and we've already subsidized it! Yes, we've already given millions in tax money/historic preservation money to the Skirvin.

We don't need to continue to subsidize this hotel!

I don't like the idea... I would much rather see a 5-star hotel lured in because of the Convention Center, not just connect to one of the only upper end hotels we already have... A hotel with size (15-20 floors?), is that out of the question?

Of course they did. But they fail. Why? If OKC is going to "move to the next level," it's not going to be with a small convention hotel. The Skirvin doesn't have the room count to be a serous convention hotel. Not even close.

It's a wonderful boutique hotel -- and we've already subsidized it! Yes, we've already given millions in tax money/historic preservation money to the Skirvin.

We don't need to continue to subsidize this hotel!
soonerguru, unless I'm badly mistaken, the city is being repaid (ahead of schedule) the city's money used to facilitate the Skirvin Hilton. Second, and again unless I'm badly mistaken, the proposal calls for a new 425 room addition to be constructed immediately north of the existing Skirvin.

You're right, Doug. This appears to be a pretty sweet deal. That's my favorite of the potential convention center sites because of its proximity to Bricktown restaurants and downtown hotels. And it would make our premier hotel a 650-room convention center hotel.

This could leave both the old Ford dealership site and the east side of Bricktown to be developed into housing/retail.

I must say, this is the best proposal we have seen to date. You also have aLoft right next door too, plus the Pitman property hotels, restaurants, etc. all within reach. Plus the streetcar will run right next to the Skirvin, and it might eventually run through Deep Deuce and Bricktown. I really hope this proposal is picked.

Anything but the Ford site.

I like this idea but perhaps the new Skirvin tower could be even bigger/taller?

That location for the convention center would really bolster Bricktown and is right in the middle of all the hotels with room for more. And three hotels sit between the proposed site and the Myriad, which still will be used for lots of events. Might even finally give the impetus needed to redevelop the First National Center into a hotel.

At least with this proposal we would be adding density and supplementing the development we already have in place rather than trying to expand into yet another relatively undeveloped area.

Yellow = convention space * Pink = hotels * Blue = possible hotels

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/convention1.jpg

I must say, this is the best proposal we have seen to date. You also have aLoft right next door too, plus the Pitman property hotels, restaurants, etc. all within reach. Plus the streetcar will run right next to the Skirvin, and it might eventually run through Deep Deuce and Bricktown. I really hope this proposal is picked.

Anything but the Ford site.


This.

Since we are only seeing a nondescript cube in the rendering that looks more like an office building, hard to visualize how it would compliment the Skirvin. Doesn't look like there is room on the site, but the Skirvin needs to be the "front door" of any expansion (with the expansion rising behind it maybe). If the rendering is to scale, it is dwarfing the Skirvin and that should be avoided. The C.C. hotel needs to add the minimum number of rooms the experts have said it needs (this expansion doesn't do that, they are using the existing room inventory as part of the total that is supposed to be entirely new inventory).

Totally different thing but the concept is the same, the smaller building is in front with the expansion/taller building in the rear. Ignore the Skirvenesque building to the left, concentrate on the buildings in the middle of the pic...LOL



Link (http://www.davidsbrown.com/commercial/commercial-upcoming/mechanic_theater.html)

http://www.davidsbrown.com/images/mechanic1.jpg

Also, didn't the article say they were going to raze the current parking garage and make it SMALLER? What??? How do you need less parking???

...It's a wonderful boutique hotel -- and we've already subsidized it! Yes, we've already given millions in tax money/historic preservation money to the Skirvin.

We don't need to continue to subsidize this hotel!


soonerguru, unless I'm badly mistaken, the city is being repaid (ahead of schedule) the city's money used to facilitate the Skirvin Hilton. Second, and again unless I'm badly mistaken, the proposal calls for a new 425 room addition to be constructed immediately north of the existing Skirvin.

Doug, you are correct, Steve reported it Jan 4 of this year
http://www.newsok.com/report-shows-oklahoma-citys-skirvin-hotel-exceeding-expectations/article/3529167#


A new city report shows that just four years after opening, the Skirvin Hilton Hotel is performing far better than expected, with payments back to Oklahoma City exceeding best case predictions.
...
The $56.3 million renovation required $22 million in public assistance. The city council approved the public assistance after being told by the city's finance office the hotel could be expected to pay back between $1.6 million and $1.9 million in lease payments and debt interest by September 2010.

Instead, the hotel has paid back $2.7 million despite an unexpected downturn in the national economy.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/skirvin/skirvinexpansiondrawing.jpg

While I like the convention center location depicted here more than several of the other sites, it seems like a tunnel extending at or fairly near the level of the current underground would be more practical and convenient to pedestrians in the long run for access across the street & tracks to the entire downtown area to/from the convention center & bricktown, it also seems to waste a lot of space for what is rendered as a essentially large empty building just to move people up 4 extra tall tall stories to go over the railroads then back down. Though it might be easier to get passed or finished in less time, no idea on costs or operations. Plus some in the city have expressed interest in going to sky-bridges going forward over more tunnels. Unless it ends up allowing access to new train platforms at Santa Fe station or being some use in some fashion as part of the planned hub it is almost as much of a hassle as just going on ground level, which reminds me of the fail of a pedestrian bridge at the capital. The size of the building looks like it should be the lobby of the new hotel expansion or at least have a couple shops in it.

Also, didn't the article say they were going to raze the current parking garage and make it SMALLER? What??? How do you need less parking???

Yes, but it also says they plan to build a new parking garage with up to 1200 spaces. I think razing the Santa Fe garage is a great idea. It's terrible looking and takes up potentially prime real estate.

Since we are only seeing a nondescript cube in the rendering that looks more like an office building, hard to visualize how it would compliment the Skirvin. Doesn't look like there is room on the site, but the Skirvin needs to be the "front door" of any expansion (with the expansion rising behind it maybe). If the rendering is to scale, it is dwarfing the Skirvin and that should be avoided. The C.C. hotel needs to add the minimum number of rooms the experts have said it needs (this expansion doesn't do that, they are using the existing room inventory as part of the total that is supposed to be entirely new inventory).

Totally different thing but the concept is the same, the smaller building is in front with the expansion/taller building in the rear. Ignore the Skirvenesque building to the left, concentrate on the buildings in the middle of the pic...LOL


Also, didn't the article say they were going to raze the current parking garage and make it SMALLER? What??? How do you need less parking???

Larry, I think you are looking at the conceptual drawing wrong. I believe that the nondescript cube you are concerned with is the Chase Tower which is shown depicted as it is so you can see through it to see the proposed convention center behind it. The new hotel proposal is north of the Skirvin and, as seen in the depiction, it somewhat mirrors the design of the original Skirvin.

Yes, but it also says they plan to build a new parking garage with up to 1200 spaces. I think razing the Santa Fe garage is a great idea. It's terrible looking and takes up potentially prime real estate.

I am not against getting rid of the existing garage but you need to ADD parking not make it SMALLER. From the article:


The Santa Fe Garage would be razed and replaced with a smaller parking structure

I am not against getting rid of the existing garage but you need to ADD parking not make it SMALLER. From the article:

Larry, please note this part of the article:

"Weeman suggests the project could begin with construction of a new parking garage along the south side of Main Street just east of the BNSF Railway viaduct. The 800- to 1,260-space garage would incorporate the century-old Sherman Iron Works Building and be situated across the street from the proposed convention center site."

is "800 to 1,260" spaces more or less than the existing garage?

on edit:

Santa Fe Parking Garage - Conveniently located along EK Gaylord Avenue, the Sante Fe garage is connected by skywalk to the Cox Convention Center. With over 1500 available spaces

So even if on the high end it will be taking away parking instead of adding to it (while adding 400 rooms) where are all those rental cars going to park?

Larry, I think you are looking at the conceptual drawing wrong. I believe that the nondescript cube you are concerned with is the Chase Tower which is shown depicted as it is so you can see through it to see the proposed convention center behind it. The new hotel proposal is north of the Skirvin and, as seen in the depiction, it somewhat mirrors the design of the original Skirvin.

Thanks for the clarification (sorry, am lousy with directions and the map didn't indicate where north was). If that is the case, it is better but that design still doesn't look like it is really part of the Skirvin. What I am seeing is something that would look like it was designed that way all along (had been there as long as the Skirvin). Sort of along the lines when they put the dome on the state capitol it doesn't look "new", looks like it has always been there/blends right into the existing building. Of course it helps that it was designed to have a dome on it. Thats all I was trying to say

is "800 to 1,260" spaces more or less than the existing garage?

on edit:


So even if on the high end it will be taking away parking instead of adding to it (while adding 400 rooms) where are all those rental cars going to park?

The current garage is supposed to have 1,518 spaces. The article states that when that site is rebuilt it will have between 575 and 895 spaces which would be in addition to the new garage which would have between 800 and 1260 spaces. It would likely result in a net gain of sparking spaces.

In love with this proposal. Densifies and takes advantage of existing resources. Please let this one be chosen.

Sorry again for my confusion...am replying by PM until I get this sorted out. LOL

I actually did some video in this exact spot yesterday before I heard of this article. I got inside the Santa Fe parking garage and the Clarence Ford Park. It'll be good to get the artifacts from the Baum, Patterson, Criterion, and Biltmore buildings in a proper place. I'm sure you've all seen how rundown and pitiful the park is.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Downtown%20OKC/santafeparkinggarage1-1.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Downtown%20OKC/santafeparkinggarage1.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Downtown%20OKC/santafeparkinggarage2.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Downtown%20OKC/santafeparkinggarage3.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Downtown%20OKC/santafeparkinggarage4.jpg

I'll have video and pictures up later today hopefully.

By the way, that "Gateway" arch they're proposing, I hope they really nail the design architecturally. Go big or go home.

This is a bad idea. The numbers don't work. The reason the numbers fall so short is that they're making some argument that OKC can't support more hotel rooms. The truth of the matter is that OKC has a desperate need for more downtown hotel rooms, and adding only 400 as opposed to 800 more is not a preferable alternative. I don't know how anybody could think that is a preferable alternative. The Skirvin is already booked solid. And other reasons.

I like how J. Pitman nailed it when he suggested this a few weeks ago in another thread. It's an intriguing idea, but it's just an idea. I'd rather see a new hotel as a preference, and that would seem to be a much more feasible idea with making the numbers work, as well. The only problem is where to put it. We have soooooo much open land in this city and it's so unfortunate that we can't figure out which parcel of open land we can use for a convention center hotel. It would be nice to get some kind of "new development" out of this as well. What kind of new development will be spurred by just utilizing an existing hotel?

***I do really like some of these ideas, however. IF the Cox Center site is eventually demolished and turned into a new mixed-use development, then it could be a good idea to tear down the Santa Fe Garage and create some new space for downtown transit hub activities adjacent to the Skirvin. That could be a truly amazing location for that because of how it lines up dead-center with Park Avenue, the heart of downtown. So I think this proposal is a non-starter for a new convention hotel, but it might have merit going forward with other purposes.

Take or leave the 400-room expansion, that's not going to make as much of a difference, because it is likely not going to be the convention hotel anyway just because of how unfeasible a solution this would be. But it does have you thinking that if Marcus is already thinking about expansion, then perhaps they might do it anyway just as some off-spin development we will get because of M3, particularly the convention center.

I like the idea, I just think the expansion needs to be taller and have close to 600 rooms, instead of the 400 they're proposing. Why not make a hotel tower, with 30+ floors?

The Magnolia in Dallas is a little similar to Skirvin, but much taller.

http://cdn.buzznet.com/assets/users16/emmanuelle/default/magnolia-hotel-dallas--large-msg-119888715117.jpg

I like the idea, I just think the expansion needs to be taller and have close to 600 rooms, instead of the 400 they're proposing. Why not make a hotel tower, with 30+ floors?

I like this idea, that way that could attach it through the ballroom.

Spartan, I'm surprised you don't like this idea, as you seem to be the standard bearer for density on this site. Though I understand your concerns.

Initial reaction--I really like this idea. Linking to Skirvin sounds great. Maybe this would eventually prompt some mid- or high-rise hotel construction in Bricktown to supplement the expanded Skirvin.

This is a bad idea. The numbers don't work. The reason the numbers fall so short is that they're making some argument that OKC can't support more hotel rooms. The truth of the matter is that OKC has a desperate need for more downtown hotel rooms, and adding only 400 as opposed to 800 more is not a preferable alternative. I don't know how anybody could think that is a preferable alternative. The Skirvin is already booked solid. And other reasons.

I like how J. Pitman nailed it when he suggested this a few weeks ago in another thread. It's an intriguing idea, but it's just an idea. I'd rather see a new hotel as a preference, and that would seem to be a much more feasible idea with making the
numbers work, as well. The only problem is where to put it. We have soooooo much open land in this city and it's so unfortunate that we can't figure out which parcel of open land we can use for a convention center hotel. It would be nice to get some kind of "new development" out of this as well. What kind of new development will be spurred by just utilizing an existing hotel?

***I do really like some of these ideas, however. IF the Cox Center site is eventually demolished and turned into a new mixed-use development, then it could be a good idea to tear down the Santa Fe Garage and create some new space for downtown transit hub activities adjacent to the Skirvin. That could be a truly amazing location for that because of how it lines up dead-center with Park Avenue, the heart of downtown. So I think this proposal is a non-starter for a new convention hotel, but it might have merit going forward with other purposes.

Take or leave the 400-room expansion, that's not going to make as much of a
difference, because it is likely not going to be the convention hotel anyway just because of how unfeasible a solution this would be. But it does have you thinking that if Marcus is already thinking about expansion, then perhaps they might do it anyway just as some off-spin development we will get because of M3, particularly the convention center.


Spartan, the Skirvin Partners already made it evident that they would fund 22 story, 425 room tower, saving the city $60M, so why couldn't the city make a joint venture with them and spend a portion of that $60M, to add another 300 rooms their proposal?

It says in the article that a previously speculated 800 room Convention Hotel would cause a plummet in our current Downtown Hotel room occupancy. I think they know what they're talking about and I agree that maybe we should scale down the Convention Hotel. There's a reason that the Sheraton is the largest hotel we have downtown. If we could support an added supply of 800 rooms under one hotel roof then don't you think it would have already been built? Our hotels downtown are modestly sized to be honest. Most having somewhere in the 200-room area. A few below and above that as well. It's a huge risk in the City's and Downtown eyes I think to add such a large quantity of rooms onto the Downtown market. A hotel this large would represent, what? Almost half of our current hotel room count now? I think that's how the city views it.

This concept is a homerun: demolish one of the ugliest barriers downtown, the Santa Fe Garage; add news parking garages in lieu of the SG; adds density to Main Street, Bricktown, the CBD, and Deep Deuce; sits in a perfect position that makes it incredibly easy to access Bricktown, the CBD, Deep Deuce, and Automobile Alley is now just up the street; is the best location in terms of distance from existing hotel stock; saves the city some money; the new hotel tower would fill in our CBD and would be across the street from the new Sandridge Commons; the configurement allows for the Ford Site and eventually the Cox site to both be redeveloped into retail/residential/office or whatever; and infills one of the biggest holes in our Downtown area. I'm probably missing some positive points as well.

This is a great proposal. One I bet the city is going to have a really hard time turning down. Even if an equally impressive plan was tossed by the other sites, they just can't compare to the infill and revitilization of this plan. Downtown Oklahoma City is not complete yet, so why build on the edges of the core when we can be smart and proactively fill in what is not complete and strengthen the CBD, Deep Deuce, and Bricktown and the connections between three districts! I don't think anyone should count this one out, just like we shouldn't count out the possibility of the other sites being just as impressive as this proposal.

But don't accept my opinion as a legitimate view on this forum. (Which is just that, an opinion.) Because I'm a "18-19 year old forumer and I", apparently, "haven't lived long enough to see how things work." Which is funny because I know more about this city than the average citizen 4 times my age.

this is a great idea/proposal it is what need to happen

I like this idea, that way that could attach it through the ballroom.

Spartan, I'm surprised you don't like this idea, as you seem to be the standard bearer for density on this site. Though I understand your concerns.

Haha, thanks, I appreciate that honor. I'm actually not just a robot who's always for one thing over another, I think the convention center does need to be a mostly economic development mission. I have seen the numbers and heard the arguments and I'm convinced that OKC can not make the new convention center work out as well without at least 700-800 new rooms, attached. I just think if we spend $280M it should work as well as intended..

Even though I saw this Skirvin proposal coming, I am still not sure exactly what they want to do and more importantly, what they're asking for. Could this exist along with a major convention hotel, perhaps even a smaller convention hotel? Then that would be an excellent idea. This has opened up the door to the possibility that the convention hotel for a North Bricktown site not necessarily be connected, and I think there are many potential locations where you could stick an 800-room hotel adjacent to that site. Perhaps, the land that will be used for the parking lot behind Aloft. Or perhaps across the Walnut Street bridge.

It says in the article that a previously speculated 800 room Convention Hotel would cause a plummet in our current Downtown Hotel room occupancy. I think they know what they're talking about and I agree that maybe we should scale down the Convention Hotel. There's a reason that the Sheraton is the largest hotel we have downtown. If we could support an added supply of 800 rooms under one hotel roof then don't you think it would have already been built?

2010, I didn't know you thought in this way. If OKC could support downtown retail, don't you think it would have already been built? If OKC could support a vibrant, mixed-use downtown, don't you think it would have already been built? I absolutely cringed when I read that...

I don't think that you understand the concept of the convention center hotel. It is not a hotel that is generally open to public booking. Every night, generally 90% of its rooms are attached to the convention center. It exists only for the purpose of the convention center and it creates its own business. OKC does not have anything like this because OKC can not even currently compete for the kinds of conventions that require this many rooms in one building. The only down-side to the convention center hotel is that it requires a subsidy in the beginning, which if often paid back later, or so we hope (there always has to be skepticism at this point when that promise is made in Oklahoma).


Our hotels downtown are modestly sized to be honest. Most having somewhere in the 200-room area.

This is why downtown is severely underserved by hotels.


This concept is a homerun: demolish one of the ugliest barriers downtown, the Santa Fe Garage; add news parking garages in lieu of the SG;

Which would still represent a net loss of structured parking spaces downtown, although I agree wholeheartedly that the Santa Fe Garage either needs to go or needs some drastic changes.


adds density to Main Street, Bricktown,

We're talking about this as being contingent on the selection of a convention center site that could just as well (and more reasonably) happen without the Skirvin.


the new hotel tower would fill in our CBD and would be across the street from the new Sandridge Commons;

Well hot damn!


I'm probably missing some positive points as well.

Nope, I think you got 'em all. :-)


This is a great proposal. One I bet the city is going to have a really hard time turning down. Even if an equally impressive plan was tossed by the other sites, they just can't compare to the infill and revitilization of this plan.

What is it revitalizing? The Skirvin? It was already renovated.


Downtown Oklahoma City is not complete yet, so why build on the edges of the core when we can be smart and proactively fill in what is not complete and strengthen the CBD, Deep Deuce, and Bricktown and the connections between three districts!

True. I think you can do that without the Skirvin getting to be the sole biggest hotel downtown, though. But I also agree that it's an intriguing proposal that shouldn't be counted out necessarily, if they can come up with how they're going to make the numbers work--not involving rhetoric about why their numbers are right and the city's are wrong, blah blah..


But don't accept my opinion as a legitimate view on this forum. (Which is just that, an opinion.) Because I'm a "18-19 year old forumer and I", apparently, "haven't lived long enough to see how things work." Which is funny because I know more about this city than the average citizen 4 times my age.

Hear hear.

But don't accept my opinion as a legitimate view on this forum. (Which is just that, an opinion.) Because I'm a "18-19 year old forumer and I", apparently, "haven't lived long enough to see how things work." Which is funny because I know more about this city than the average citizen 4 times my age.


Isn't that annoying? Just because we're not 67 doesn't mean we don't know anything.


I really like this proposal. I think it does a great job at creating more density, and as others have said, improving a district that already exists. I do see where Spartan is coming from though. If we want a true convention hotel then we may need to build a seperate one. If not that, then if the city was willing to chip in some of their 60 million they said they would use, and double the amount of rooms, the new tower could be 80-90% dedicated to the convention center while still technically be part of the Skirvin. I think it could work.

So the Main St site, will they have to tear down the existing buildings along the north side of Main? If so it would be nice if they keep some of the facades and incorporate them into the convention center design.

Is there really enough space at that site for the convention center program? When we were doing our planning for the C2S site we were looking at close to 1 million SF to compete with other large Tier 2 cities nationally. Even at 2 stories that took up the entire space from the Blvd. to SW 4 between Santa Fe and Robinson, a much larger area than the Main St site.

Nick, I am highly surprised you don't like this proposal. Are you more in favor of the Ford site? What benefits would the Coca Cola Events Center location add?

This plan is not perfect, but I think it is the best idea in utilizing what we have already built.

Another great feature of this is it is already in a hidden part of downtown, and one side of it backs up against the railroad tracks. All of your concerns that you had for it being located right next to the new Central Park have been corrected with this proposal, yet you still don't like it? The Skirvin will have a total of 650 rooms after this expansion, which would definitely make it a good convention hotel. And if that is not enough, there are plenty of other large nearby hotels, and room for the market to add a few more (property-wise) nearby. I trust that the Skirvin people have a better understanding of the local hotel market than any of us armchair developers.

I have sensory overload right now. This is by far the best proposal that we have seen so far.

I think Spartan is opposed to the Bricktown parking lot location becasue the old building on the north side of Main Street would be taken down as part of the projecy. Spartan strickes me as preservation first, density second type person. I on the other hand am density first, everything else is a distant second. I love this idea.

As for people saying they want a 5 star hotel - the Skirvin is something like the 20th best hotel in Hilton family. It doesn't get much better than that.

What if you just did some tweaking of this new proposal: Put a new convention center hotel in the Santa Fe Garage location and add the new parking garage in the location a the new Skrivin towers?

I'm surprised some don't like this proposal. There have been SO many comments on the Devon Tower threat about the desire to have more high rises downtown...and this would be one...22 stories isn't too shabby!

Love love love love love. How can you not love this proposal?

-we lose the fugly Santa Fe garage, which is not only unattractive but a huge barrier and urbanist's nightmare
-we replace a bank branch and surface parking with a new tower with 425 hotel rooms
-we replace surface parking in Bricktown with a garage
-we gain office space for the CVB and Chamber in the most logical place, right next to the convention center, and in the process never have to worry about that stupid football building they were going to build a couple blocks north
-we put the convention center in the most logical place being considered (IMO) and lose a massive amount of surface parking in the process
-we get a really fabulous hotel as our convention hotel, which only makes us even more attractive for conventions.

[B]I LIKE!!!![B] :congrats:

It improves density, adds a net plus for parking, saves the city money on the hotel allowing improvments to the CC and positions the CC in it's best location.

It's going to take some serious backing, supporting a package, to beat this proposal.

Oh and by the way, the Skirvin is haunted! lol...

I guess this is going to be a fairly popular proposal. By the way, if this even works as an acceptable convention hotel, the general public can say goodbye to getting many opportunities to spend the night in this grand hotel. That would be a loss, in my opinion.

That parking garage is scary huge.

Larry, please note this part of the article:

"Weeman suggests the project could begin with construction of a new parking garage along the south side of Main Street just east of the BNSF Railway viaduct. The 800- to 1,260-space garage would incorporate the century-old Sherman Iron Works Building and be situated across the street from the proposed convention center site."

What does " incorporate the century-old Sherman Iron Works Building" mean???
Demolish or integrate into the facade and/or the parking building?

The Sante Fe garage is 1,500 spaces, so reduce that by 2/3rds and you get 500. Add back 800 to 1,260 and we'll have no fewer spaces.

One rub is the Renaissance Hotel is currently connected to the SF garage by skywalk, so they might not like this. On the other hand, this location will do wonders for their business.

And I really do think this may finally provide the demand needed to convert First National to a hotel -- or at least the tower portion.

Oh and by the way, the Skirvin is haunted! lol...

I guess this is going to be a fairly popular proposal. By the way, if this even works as an acceptable convention hotel, the general public can say goodbye to getting many opportunities to spend the night in this grand hotel. That would be a loss, in my opinion.

Not true.

I get a real warm feeling about this proposal. The placement as well as the density is amazing. Furthermore, as much of a fan as I am of preservationism, I actually think that the convention hotel (read Skriving Extension) would be best as a very modern high-rise. It could still respect the design of the original Skirvin yet at a greater height. This whole concept will clearly stimulate a great deal of development in the surrounding area. Touché!

Oh and by the way, the Skirvin is haunted! lol...

I guess this is going to be a fairly popular proposal. By the way, if this even works as an acceptable convention hotel, the general public can say goodbye to getting many opportunities to spend the night in this grand hotel. That would be a loss, in my opinion.

Why would you think the general public would be denied opportunities. I would think there would be more opportunities as there will not be a convention every week and with 400 plus extra rooms there will probably be some heavy discounting to rent those rooms when that happens.

I always thought that a CC hotel would serve the guests of the CC.? If this proposal is accepted then the Skirvin Hotel will serve only convention goers correct? I am not so sure this is a good idea.

This site is like sitting in the back in the corner and in the dark at a restaurant. Eliminating competition, city building them another tower, making them the headquarters
hotel..you can tell this proposal came from the Skirvin people. This site provides no future growth, development, and hinders future high speed rail alignments. Also not to sure the BNSF would allow to have a pedestrian walkway over the track. Many problems with this site.

There is an existing railroad overpass where that bridge would be located, so people could cross at street level. And as previously mentioned, extending the Underground would work, too.

And although the Skirvin (actually Marcus Hotels) is driving this, they would have to get lots of cooperation from the city, property owners and even the Renaissance Hotel (it currently is attached to the south section of the SF garage).

Would it be so terrible if Marcus profited from this? After all, they invested in the Skirvin and did a fantastic job in restoring and running it -- they've been a great partner with OKC. They also have an excellent reputation for the various properties they own and operate. I have complete trust they could not only pull this off but do it right. They own the Milwaukee Hilton which is adjacent to their new convention center, so they know a thing or two about this.

I would second okcboy's post and add this:


Why would you think the general public would be denied opportunities. I would think there would be more opportunities as there will not be a convention every week and with 400 plus extra rooms there will probably be some heavy discounting to rent those rooms when that happens.

Do you really think that the Skirvin is proposing to add a whole bunch of rooms they mostly won't use just so they can offer them to locals most of the time at discounted rates?? Of course not. This is about the Skirvin positioning themselves to be booked silly, because it's not enough being 90% booked. The only way to improve on that is to seize the M3 convention center opportunity being presented. Now we can see why the Skirvin group has been playing the local politics game lately, even siding against preservationists, etc.

I'm not sure how the FNC being renovated into hotel is a natural conclusion derived from this proposal, either. Perhaps in that this still wouldn't put much of a dent in our hotel needs, but for me that's a tough fact to spin into a positive.

And I am concerned for the historic preservation aspects of this deal. This is getting fast and loose in proximity to some historic properties and I would want to make sure that Bricktown's Main Street isn't about to be decimated. North Bricktown is my favorite convention center site, but not at the cost of Main Street...

I always thought that a CC hotel would serve the guests of the CC.? If this proposal is accepted then the Skirvin Hotel will serve only convention goers correct?

I'm sure they would give priority to conventioneers when they have a big event, but I don't think this is much different than what happens now at the Skirvin and the other downtown hotels: they merely contract with large groups to reserve blocks of rooms.

Otherwise, people just reserve rooms as usual.

"Convention Hotel" just means it's larger and is in the immediate vicinity of the convention center.

Typically at least 80 but often 90% of their bookings are convention-related, from some CVB people I've talked with.

I'm not sure how the FNC being renovated into hotel is a natural conclusion derived from this proposal

The eastern end of that structure is directly across the street from the Skirvin and on Park Avenue, the street that would lead directly to the bridge/walkway over EK Gaylord.

There has been much discussion about the highest and best use of the tower and Great Banking Hall being a large hotel... This proposal would give real viability to that idea -- something that has been completely lacking for 40 years and for the foreseeable future.

Typically at least 80 but often 90% of their bookings are convention-related, from some CVB people I've talked with.

This is typical of most downtown hotels.

And despite their high occupancy rate (this is a good thing!) it seems just about everyone that has tried to reserve a room for visiting guests or special occasions has had good success based on numerous posts on this site.

Besides, don't we want visitors staying in that beautiful structure run by the most sophisticated hotel operators in the state? Again, this is a good thing.

If it is indeed always booked, that just means more hotels will be built.

This was my favorite location for the new convention center even before this proposal. But this just makes it awesome. Proximity to the existing major hotels, the possibility of bringing thousands of conventioneers to Bricktown, the demolition of that fugly parking garage that has cut off Bricktown for decades... I don't see any downsides.

Does anyone have an educated guess at the approximate height of the proposed tower? The only thing that could make this proposal sweeter is a highrise north of the existing Skirvin. There are mixed use hotels all over the country. Perhaps they could build 20 floors of hotel rooms with an additional 20 floors of apartments. With a pedestal of restaurants, meeting rooms, and an athletic club, this building could easily exceed 45 floors. Is this too much of a dream?

2010, I didn't know you thought in this way. If OKC could support downtown retail, don't you think it would have already been built? If OKC could support a vibrant, mixed-use downtown, don't you think it would have already been built? I absolutely cringed when I read that...

You have now idea or relative concept of how I think, I'm afraid. One mere post isn't near conclusive enough for you to gather any concrete evidence on the my real nature of my opinion. Maybe I am still quite naive still but obviously the city and planners see it is as a risk to current hotel room occupancy. I, not knowing much about that sorta thing as a lot of people don't, tend to stand by them because I would expect them to know what they're doing.


I don't think that you understand the concept of the convention center hotel. It is not a hotel that is generally open to public booking. Every night, generally 90% of its rooms are attached to the convention center. It exists only for the purpose of the convention center and it creates its own business. OKC does not have anything like this because OKC can not even currently compete for the kinds of conventions that require this many rooms in one building. The only down-side to the convention center hotel is that it requires a subsidy in the beginning, which if often paid back later, or so we hope (there always has to be skepticism at this point when that promise is made in Oklahoma).

I understand what a convention center hotel is. Thanks. Just because I don't post much doesn't mean I can't comprehend. ;]


Which would still represent a net loss of structured parking spaces downtown, although I agree wholeheartedly that the Santa Fe Garage either needs to go or needs some drastic changes.

Never said it would result in the same amount of net parking spaces or more. I am aware of the loss net. But I think it's completely justifiable.


We're talking about this as being contingent on the selection of a convention center site that could just as well (and more reasonably) happen without the Skirvin.

You're just fckin' clever, aren't ya?


Well hot damn!

No.


What is it revitalizing? The Skirvin? It was already renovated.
Revitalizing in the sense of added urban character and design. The new Skirvin expansion would replace a suburban-esque drive through bank. The impenetrable Santa Fe Garage facade would be broken up and brought down to a more interesting and bearable scale that allows EK Gaylord and Park to interact. The sea of parking between Main and Oklahoma under the Walnut Bridge would be built upon. Maybe I used bad diction, but I don't think it was that hard to wrap your head about what I meant.



True. I think you can do that without the Skirvin getting to be the sole biggest hotel downtown, though. But I also agree that it's an intriguing proposal that shouldn't be counted out necessarily, if they can come up with how they're going to make the numbers work--not involving rhetoric about why their numbers are right and the city's are wrong, blah blah..

I agree with you completely.

By the way, the Renaissance has always called itself a "convention center hotel" -- it's just a name that means very little:

http://www.marriott.com/hotels/travel/okcbr-renaissance-oklahoma-city-convention-center-hotel/

By way of comparison, it has 300 rooms on 15 levels and features a bigger footprint than this proposed Skirvin expansion. To accommodate 425 rooms, they would have to go to at least 20 levels.

MAPS is a program designed to build new state of the art facilities and entice new development. All of the discussions about tearing down or using existing facilities are
good, but not in the context of what the MAPS program is all about. I'm fairly certain The Skirvin will do very well on its own and still be the landmark hotel that it is now.
Which might be better for them in the long term.