Exactly, this is something new...in his article on April 9th, he said next Snday, so that would be April 17th, and this was mentioned after the Skirvin article...

this plan wouldn't kill HSR...it is already dead at the federal level for the foreseeable future and even if it wasn't .. high speed rail wouldn't have any at grade crossings .. and this line has tons ..

Again, I don't disagree with you. But this is the proposed alignment for lines to Midwest City, Tinker, Del City, the Adventure Line, and future slower (Amtrak type) rail service that several of our recently hired consultants are gravitating towards.

HSR very well may be a pipe dream. But the fact that ODoT is regularly pursuing monies for it and it is part of their formal plans is an irresponsible thing to to ignore by the Skirvin Partners and anyone else involves in Convention Center site selection.

840

839

I see that the site configuration as presented includes the demolition of the entire south side of 2nd in Deep Deuce. I am in huge disfavor of that. And it upsets me knowing that the proposal team was fully aware of the rail alignment and it's importance yet still managed to leave it out of the plan.

On a side, while that future and "vital" connector may need the space, and hopefully it gets it, I'm really bothered knowing that void will probably never be anything but a train ramp and a parking lot. I've always hated the gap in the development, I don't care if it was a train yard or whatever, it's a huge barrier visually and mentally. I just want the best of both worlds and that's a rare turnout.

Let's bring on the other proposals! I love when there's so much development and buzz about Downtown like this.

I'll bet you a really cool infill project could surround that rail line. The triangle in the middle would be the most difficult. But the frontage bordering Main could incorporate the existing facades of buildings or be a new development with the rail behind it. Really, the Convention Center structure might possibly be able to go there as well, just not how it is currently being portrayed.

If HSR really is a pipe dream in this country, how sad is that? How many places in the world is rail transit infinitely more developed than in the U.S.? Every EU country has amazing trains. Russia. Many other non-EU European countries, like even the former Yugoslavia countries. Japan. China. Even Canada, which is too geographically sprawled, is going to have high speed rail before this third world country known as the U.S. of A...

So that's what I think of when some of you (ahem, bouldersooner) cavalierly throw around the point that actual infrastructure is what's DOA in the U.S.. that's not a debating trump card. That's a reason to drink.

If HSR really is a pipe dream in this country, how sad is that? How many places in the world is rail transit infinitely more developed than in the U.S.? Every EU country has amazing trains. Russia. Many other non-EU European countries, like even the former Yugoslavia countries. Japan. China. Even Canada, which is too geographically sprawled, is going to have high speed rail before this third world country known as the U.S. of A...

So that's what I think of when some of you (ahem, bouldersooner) cavalierly throw around the point that actual infrastructure is what's DOA in the U.S.. that's not a debating trump card. That's a reason to drink.

you can think what you want ... IMHO and others it is the political reality at this point in time and for the foreseeable future

Are you really going to speak on behalf of the U.S. government for the next 20 years, or is that just something you overheard on Fox and Friends?

are you really going to speak on behalf of the u.s. Government for the next 20 years, or is that just something you overheard on fox and friends?

lol

Are you really going to speak on behalf of the U.S. government for the next 20 years, or is that just something you overheard on Fox and Friends?

Spartan - the US government is broke. Even CNN and MSNBC know it. We know longer have a rich Uncle Sam.

Now back to convention centers and transit hubs.

Well, Steve mentioned if all goes as planned, that we will love what is set to appear in the business section of the Oklahoman this Sunday, so it must be a big announcement of some sort, not sure if its pertaining to CC though, might be something totally different.

Maybe the sidewalk is being repaired on 2nd street! Yippee!

Spartan - the US government is broke. Even CNN and MSNBC know it. We know longer have a rich Uncle Sam.

Now back to convention centers and transit hubs.


I'm not interested in debating economic policy related to budget deficits with someone who is on one hand a devout Reaganaut and on the other hand someone who has professed support for the Tea Party, but I suspect we can agree on the following: 1). The deficit is not a new thing. In fact, it's been around a long, long time and only seemed to become a matter of urgent national interest among conservatives when Barack Obama became president; 2) The budget deficit is reduced when our economy expands; conversely, our budget deficit grows when our economy contracts; and 3) neither you nor I can predict either the size of our country's future budget deficit or the strength of our country's economy in the next 20 years.

Kerry, I usually enjoy your posts and have a strong inkling that you agree with me that infrastructure -- particularly that which serves our national transportation interests -- is an important investment.

Now, regardless of what Boulder says, it would be stupid for us to destroy existing transportation infrastructure or right of way -- whether or not our government is in a position to fund it in 20 years -- that could benefit our future transportation needs.

Maybe by then our government will decide it is stupid to continue giving federal tax breaks to companies to drill for oil when the price of oil is like $150 to $200 a barrel.

Leaving cost implications aside for the moment, would it not be possible to have the connector line(s) built underground, meaning under the new CC? I realize that the existing lines are elevated, but a compromise would be to have that leg of the rail line a 'terminus' at the hub, with connections between the lines for commuters being via escalator/elevator. I realize that this means there could not be a direct line between, say, Midwest City and Norman via downtown, but the inconvenience of a stopover for commuters might mitigate the current design problems. Actually, that is the real purpose of a 'hub'; Stopovers, changes of transportation modes, etc., so let's not be afraid of entertaining various concepts.

I think that the Skirvin CC proposal is well, frankly, genius as it addresses SO many of the issues that disconnect different parts of downtown. So what if they will stand to profit from it. Fantastic! Think of all the other parties that will ALSO profit! I only wish some of the previous downtown parties would have had as much vision when it comes to working with what is available (no names mentioned).

This plan for the integration of a new convention center fills in a gap that has divided the city in two for decades, namely the Santa Fe line. Every consideration should be given to how Skirvin's plans can be realized WITH the transportation needs of the city and not pitting one plan against the other.

This sounds really cool, but maybe we should put down the bong. We don't have a budget for this, and won't.

Funny!

Actually, I live in the EU and I think I get what he means. The feeder systems for public transportation here are quite common. In Germany they are called S-Bahnen. Kind of like commuter rail that connects cities with the burbs, while metros (subways) stick mainly to the really built up areas. Here in the Netherlands, the country is so small, that basically the national railway system functions like the S-Bahn system in Germany.

For Oklahoma I would be happy with 'a train' at this point over and above the Heartland Flyer, so all systems seem good to me.

Back to the topic though, I think if the COPTA and the Skirvin guys could sit together (again and maybe even publicly to avoid any mis-communication) and talk some serious scenario planning about how the two plans could be integrated, then a constructive step in the right direction might be made. Of-course this means BOTH sides have to be willing to compromise, but then that is all in the name of the game. Also the way it works here in Holland. It is called the 'Polder Model' of decision making.

COTPA? No offense, but what does COTPA know about rail transit?

Thank you - I was just writting the same thing when I decided to hit refersh. There is never going to be a national HSR system. The best we can hope for is a state funded system connecting Lawton, OKC, and Tulsa with local feeder lines to tier 2 and tier 3 communities. With any luck their would be connections to other cities outside of Oklahoma, but the federal government won't be paying for it.

How do you know this? What if we're paying $5 or $6 per gallon for gasoline? Do you really think the airlines are doing well? What about our aging highway system? I realize the Tea Party governator in Florida turned down his HSR money but that money is going somewhere else (and Oklahoma is applying for its share as a streetcar match) and not back into the general revenue fund. I'm not saying everything is hunky dory and that the government is Santa Claus, but high-speed rail is an efficient form of transportation around the world. It could work here and it's the kind of infrastructure we should consider investing in. Infrastructure investment usually pays off in a multiplied effect.

If an urban development proposal has us all going back to Pg 1 debating the merits of urban things, transit, and the like... that's probably a proposal that is not in the best interest of the city. Just as a basic rule of thumb...

It's nice to see just who on here unequivocally supports public transit. So noted.

All of the previous MAPS money spent on existing properties were for the same use. The
only site on this issue would be the cox center. If incentives are going to be needed, which they will, I think another new hotel would be better than adding on to an existing one. Having the Skirvin as a CC hotel would kinda cheapen their image in my mind.

BINGO.

I am in total agreement with this location for the Convention Centre in Bricktown and development of the Convention Centre hotel in the CBD;

HOWEVER I am in complete disagreement with it being a true Expansion of the Skirvin. We all know the Skirvin is OKC's last remaining grand hotel, in vintage luxury boutique style. Convention Centre hotels are typically not luxurious and nothing special (other than being modern and large/tall). If you've never been in a convention hotel, think the current Sheraton Hotel room product more or less, with 30 storeys instead of 15; gets the job done but DEFINITELY nothing to write home about (or pay for the price/room segment that Skirvin is in). An expansion of the Skirvin as a historic hotel with a modern Convention Centre 'tower' is a huge mistake in my opinion as it relegates the "Skirvin" brand and name to the likes of Sheraton, imo.

However, that doesn't mean I dislike the idea of Marcus developing the site. ... What I think they should do is Develop the Convention Centre and Gateway and then SEGREGATE the two hotels; market the Skirvin hotel either a grand boutique hotel (which it naturally is) with no chain name OR attach the Conrad label to it, since it is Hilton's top brand. Most Conrad hotels are just like the Skirvin, historic, luxurious, boutique and exclusive. In fact, I had always promoted the idea of Conrad Skirvin Hotel, even during the Marcus renovation as I thought it needed to be more exclusive than Hilton. The 'expansion' could be simply called, Hilton Oklahoma City Downtown/Convention Centre and be modern, highrise, and 'convention'.

BOTH hotels could use the same Gateway to the Convention Centre as well as the redesigned parking (actually my idea opens up the possibility of MORE parking at/under the 'separate' Convention Hotel site), retail podium(s), and such (as could the Renaissance Hotel if they chose to expand their walkway). In my idea, you would have no less than 3 hotels 'directly' connected to the Convention Centre: 'Conrad' Skirvin Oklahoma City, Hilton Oklahoma City Downtown/Convention Centre, and Renaissance Oklahoma City Convention Centre. The only thing that might need to be worked out for this to work is the catoring, but maybe it might be useful to have two catoring companies and go big time with the convention centre (ie, 500K+ square feet, 5+ levels).

One other thing I would like to tweek with the current proposal is the height/design of the 'expansion.' By making it separate from the Skirvin but connected to the 'common' Convention Centre gateway, we have the opportunity to shoot for a 'true' modern convention hotel - the state's largest hotel and NOT affect the room bookings of the MORE EXCLUSIVE Skirvin. I say this, because it was mentioned by Marcus as a concern with how many rooms to build the 'expansion'. They were assuming (I think) of truly expanding the Skirvin brand and product, making 675? luxury rooms as OKC's convention host hotel. This is a dumb idea to me, because conventioneers will not pay luxury rates and in the end - OKC and the Skirvin will lose out with such an expansion.

However, by segmenting the 'expansion' into an actual build of a Convention Gateway that connects an existing Marcus luxury hotel, a NEW Marcus operated/(city owned??) Convention Hotel, and possible connection to the current Convention Hotel operated by Hammons; the city comes out ahead with a 800-1200 TRUE convention hotel, there isn't market saturation, and with 3 connecting properties (possibly 1500+ total rooms with another 1500+ rooms within 4 blocks) - OKC could truly shoot for large conventions and sporting events we all talk about.

All in all, I am elated that Marcus stepped up with this proposal. It is top knotch and the overall idea/concept is great. I just think with a few adjustments, they can have a truly workable solution for the city, themselves, and all of downtown.

Highlights of my 'tweeks' of Marcus's proposal.
1) City built Convention Centre in N. Bricktown. Multi-story with many elements already announced. Shoot for 500K+ sq ft, with ground level retail opportunities fronting Main Street, the rail corridor preserved, and parking opportunities incorporated into a nice urban package immediately next to OKC's Central Business District and Bricktown and Deep Deuce entertainment/historic areas. (what a selling point...)
2) City built Convention Centre gateway podium that crosses EK Gaylord or whatever street Spartan wants to call it, with the podium in the CBD repurposing the Santa Fe garage into underground parking, streetfront retail and access, and upper level office/*condo? that connects the 1 or 2 existing nearby hotels and the new solely purposed convention centre hotel.
3) Marcus/City construct a 30+ storey modern hotel tower to the North of the Skirvin hotel, in the property area Marcus already announced. Place underground parking and The Underground connections, first floor retail (that 'continues' from the Gateway), and then several floors of ballroom/restaurant and 28+ floors of convention quality hotel rooms. Since this is a 'new' product to downtown (and OKC/State in general), I think we should shoot for 800-1200 rooms [maybe 800 if you assume Renaissance to be convention rooms, which I do not].
4) Marcus to operate the new convention hotel under the Hilton brand label and repurpose the Skirvin as either independent/boutique luxury OR as Hilton's "Conrad" brand. That would allow Marcus and the city to market the properties to different segments/prices and ensure there wouldn't be market saturation of the same product but at the same time allow the city to compete with other Tier II cities.

thoughts?

One final thing, I am so greatful to Patrick (very good friend and fellow original OKC poster), Kerry, and a few others who are speaking up for this site and selection. I thought it was the best site then and I think it is now for all of the aformentioned reasons and those others have offered.

It is interesting, that when I mentioned this site several weeks ago the backlash I received in general but now there seem to be so many on the bandwagon. Suppose it is better late than never, and it is nice to have a difference in opinion without being blackballed - we all want downtown to succeed and it is great to even be able to discuss these development ideals (not to mention proposals).

M3 Oklahoma City Convention Centre and Gateway (plaza)
Conrad Skirvin Hotel
Hilton Oklahoma City Downtown/Convention Centre
(and) Renaissance Oklahoma City Convention Centre [if they chose to come along]

Continue the Renaissance!

HOTROD - the primary convention hotels I have seen are some of the nicest hotels in their local markets. That is why you don' see many Ramada Inns and Holiday Inns as primary convention hotels. You see Westins, Hiltons, Marriotts, and Intercontinentals.

HSR funding slashed and existing money that was not spend reclaimed in the 2011 budget http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703385404576258550820756980.html?m od=googlenews_wsj

HSR funding slashed and existing money that was not spend reclaimed in the 2011 budget http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703385404576258550820756980.html?m od=googlenews_wsj


Funding for high-speed rail projects will be reduced by $2.9 billion, wiping out funding for all such new projects and taking back money that remained unspent.

This is why I said Oklahoma needs to build a state funded rail system between Lawton, OKC, and Tulsa much like member nations of the EU build their own systems. Tier 1 and tier 2 cities would then be connected using feeder systems. If neighboring states want to connect to it then joint state ventures would need to take place.

For example, if Wichita wanted to connect to the system then Kansas would need to fund the cost atleast to the Kansas border. Likewise, if Little Rock wanted to connect then they could build a line from L.R. to Bentonville to Tulsa with Oklahoma picking up the cost from Tulsa to the state line. In the future if Arkansas wanted to connect LR to Memphis then they pay for the extension. Then it would be possible to go from Altus, OK to Memphis, TN all by rail. This is how the European systems work for the most part.

Kerry, how familiar are you with infrastructure spending here in the EU, really? I would encourage you to take another look at the expenditures of the European Commission...specifically, funding for rail projects in Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, Slovenia, Hungary, etc. ;]


HSR funding slashed and existing money that was not spend reclaimed in the 2011 budget http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703385404576258550820756980.html?m od=googlenews_wsj

Yes, thanks for the link, Captain Obvious. Too bad Oklahoma isn't even close to having an actual proposal ready for a few more years, or else this might actually affect us. But it is certainly unfortunate for those states that did have shovel-ready proposals like Florida, California, Minnesota, East Coast, etc.

I'm not trying to "ride" certain posters, so don't take these comments as personal attacks, this is just part of a series where you guys keep pushing flawed ideas..

How did I end up in the Transportation and Politics forums??

I really wish people would make use of Private Messages to go off on tangents.

How did I end up in the Transportation and Politics forums??

I really wish people would make use of Private Messages to go off on tangents.

Because some people want there to be a convention center on top of where the commuter rail link to MWC and possibly HSR beyond would go. They seem to either oppose the idea and want the convention center to go there to just end the debate once and for all, prompting a transit discussion, or they seem to think that downtown OKC is so limited in available land that we have to make tough decisions we will regret later...for a CONVENTION CENTER. Oy veigh.

Kerry, how familiar are you with infrastructure spending here in the EU, really? I would encourage you to take another look at the expenditures of the European Commission...specifically, funding for rail projects in Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, Slovenia, Hungary, etc. ;]



Yes, thanks for the link, Captain Obvious. Too bad Oklahoma isn't even close to having an actual proposal ready for a few more years, or else this might actually affect us. But it is certainly unfortunate for those states that did have shovel-ready proposals like Florida, California, Minnesota, East Coast, etc.

I'm not trying to "ride" certain posters, so don't take these comments as personal attacks, this is just part of a series where you guys keep pushing flawed ideas..

i didn't push any "flawed" ideas .. i simply stated the political reality that HSR is doa in oklahoma and in most of the nation for the forseeable future ..

as an aside .. i am very much for the street car think it will do wonders for central OKC and will have a great ROA i am less concerned with the existing rail because i don't think heavy rail is the right direction for central oklahoma i think new rail light rail is the answer for connecting norman to edmond/ midwest city to yukon .. even the adventure line would be better off with light rail. We could use the existing rail right of way and then have the line come into our new transit hub from the west

my point is that there are tons of possibilities and picking/not picking the north bricktown site because we would lose potential rail connections (that may not make sense anyway) and or lose HSR connection (that is not coming in the next 20+ years) doesn't sound logical

Kerry, I don't consider Adams Mark to be a 5-star or even 4-star hotel but they are or were almost exclusively in the convention business, so that is what I'm basing my idea of a convention hotel on.

It has been a while since I've attended a convention, but when I did the rooms were not on the same level of exclusivity and luxury as those of W, Westin or even most Hyatts. Amenities in Convention Hotels are standard and the rooms are usually convertable with double beds - hardly what I would consider some of the brands you named. Service was geared toward the convention *usually meaning the meeting room(s), ballroom(s), exhibition room(s), and catoring - and hundreds/thousands of continuous rooms.

This is not the amenity offering I receive when I visit 4+ star Grand Hyatt, Hilton, or W-Hotel in Seattle, let alone the 4.5 star Four Seasons Olympic (Skirvin like) hotel that is nearby but it IS what I see when I visit the Seattle Sheraton [1,200+ room] 'convention' hotel. One thing to note is all of these branded hotels are within a block or so radius from each other and the Washington State Convention Centre (which coincidentally straddles I-5 - so Im sure OKC's convention centre could be made to straddle the rail line). . ...

I think having a 800+ room Hilton Convention Hotel north of the newly branded 'Conrad Skirvin' would speak very highly of OKC, since Hiltons are usually a solid 4 star.

One more interesting point for you all to note, the Washington State Convention Center also has a Grand Gateway Arch that spans Pine Street in Seattle, connecting an expansion area to the main centre. I wonder/HOPE this is the idea Marcus is shooting for. ....

i didn't push any "flawed" ideas .. i simply stated the political reality that HSR is doa in oklahoma and in most of the nation for the forseeable future ..

as an aside .. i am very much for the street car think it will do wonders for central OKC and will have a great ROA i am less concerned with the existing rail because i don't think heavy rail is the right direction for central oklahoma i think new rail light rail is the answer for connecting norman to edmond/ midwest city to yukon .. even the adventure line would be better off with light rail. We could use the existing rail right of way and then have the line come into our new transit hub from the west

my point is that there are tons of possibilities and picking/not picking the north bricktown site because we would lose potential rail connections (that may not make sense anyway) and or lose HSR connection (that is not coming in the next 20+ years) doesn't sound logical

Fair enough, I guess it just depends which you consider more important. Having a convention center, or having rail connections. Could we have both? Of course, it seems like it would be infinitely easier to have both if the convention center budged, less likely to have both if we have to cook up some wunderscheme for the rail connections.

I'm certainly not as informed on the rail matter as it appears others are, but I'm curious as to why this proposed site for the CC would preclude future rail connections. It seems to me that connections could be made at or around the Producers Coop site just South of Downtown. There appear to be plenty of possibilities there and you already have a plethora of rail and easements. If an when it came to pass, this location would also serve to support and accelerate future C2S development.

I posted this on the Rock Island Rail Corridor thread in Transportation, but it looks like it is equally applicable here:

The former Rock Island rail corridor (Bricktown Spur) is a critical link for providing effective connectivity to the BNSF line and our future rail transit hub for (1) commuter rail service between Midwest City/Tinker and OKC, (2) Adventure District and N.E. OKC rail transit service, (3) future Amtrak or other intercity passenger rail service between OKC and Tulsa, and (4) potential High-Speed Rail between OKC and Tulsa.

The Rock Island rail corridor from the BNSF line east of the Oklahoma River is owned by the State. The extension of the line to MWC/Tinker is owned by the State. The extension of the line to the Adventure District and N.E. OKC is owned by COTPA. That makes the corridor and those lines extremely valuable from a rail transit perspective, as establishing commuter rail and other rail transit service does not require lengthy and difficult negotiations with a railroad company. It allows for the saving of millions of dollars in right-of-way acquisition and operational fees that would be required by the railroad companies. More importantly, it allows for the development of the most efficient rail transit service, as it does not require shared operations on an active freight line.

The success of any rail transit system lives or dies by its ability to provide effective and efficient service. Delays due to shared track operations, complicated line switching and time-consuming back-in/back-out maneuvers create system inefficiency that can make the system ineffective.

It appears there are several excellent locations for developing a first-class convention center without having to destroy what in my opinion is a critical component of our future rail transit system.

This isn't simply an HSR issue. The more immediate problem is the detrimental impact on cost-effective, efficient connectivity into the hub for commuter rail service from Midwest City/Tinker.

As for HSR, ODOT's plans call for "HSR-Express" (completely grade-separated...dedicated right-of-way...speeds in excess of 150 mph) between Oklahoma City and Tulsa. However, the plan provides for "Emerging HSR" between OKC and Dallas. Emerging HSR involves some amount of shared track, improved at-grade crossings and speeds between 90-110 mph.

ODOT's HSR application submitted to the FRA terminates the HSR-Express line from Tulsa at the end of the Turner Turnpike. From that point, the line becomes Emerging HSR and follows the Adventure Line corridor south to the Bricktown spur, then west onto the BNSF line, then south into the intermodal hub.

So, if and when we happen to get FRA approval for HSR in Oklahoma, it will not pass through Oklahoma City as HSR-Express on grade-separated, dedicated right-of-way.