The fact that you felt compelled to only underscores my point.

Come on Urbanized, have a sense of humor. I was just continuing a joke that I started in my reply to Zookeeper

OKC's version of Price Tower

Home | TheClassen (http://theclassen.publishpath.com/)

http://www.okctalk.com/images/wikiphotos/classen1.jpg

True, true JTF. And functional too!

OKC's version of Price Tower

Home | TheClassen (http://theclassen.publishpath.com/)

http://www.okctalk.com/images/wikiphotos/classen1.jpg

I have some homemade photos of The Actual Price Tower in Bartlesville (and the place--that is, Frank Lloyd Wright's monument to a NYC project nobody wanted to buy at the time--was just as artistic as I expected it to be).

Whatever takes the place of that ConcreteErectorSetHamsterGerbil Habitat next to DevonGarishTowers is OK in my book.


Bartlesville may not be blessed with a Gold Dome adjacent to Price Tower, yet this is just across the street . . .
http://examiner-enterprise.com/sites/examiner-enterprise.com/files/styles/large/public/field/media/web1_FCC-by-Larry-in-2005.jpg?itok=55gFNrl7

And this is sort of across the other street . . .
http://www.onlyinbartlesville.com/uploads/Image/Buildings_Homes/Community-Center-Bartlesville-OK.jpg

Diversity in architectural forms is one thing. Stage Center is something else.

OKC's version of Price Tower

Home | TheClassen (http://theclassen.publishpath.com/)

http://www.okctalk.com/images/wikiphotos/classen1.jpgFrom what I've heard, an Iranian built that.

The same Iranian (Persian) who told Hitler he wasn't a good painter.
(now think about how well that turned out)

It's actually not arrogance to state that a huge number of people are not educated or sophisticated enough to understand a lot of things. Are you suggesting that people who understand a subject are on an equal knowledge field as those who have no education, couldn't tell a building from a hut, and don't have the intellectual heft to not understand - many things? (Not just the Stage Center.) There's nothing arrogant, or new, about recognizing intellectual differences.

Actually, this post is a pretty good example of arrogance (and I agree with you on Stage Center). You don't need a college degree to participate in civic dialogue. Of course, we should listen to those with expertise, but we shouldn't disregard criticism who don't have a degree in architecture or a degree at all. I've met a lot of smart people without a college education and they can all tell the difference between "a building and a hut." Your post reeks of elitism.

Actually, this post is a pretty good example of arrogance (and I agree with you on Stage Center). You don't need a college degree to participate in civic dialogue. Of course, we should listen to those with expertise, but we shouldn't disregard criticism who don't have a degree in architecture or a degree at all. I've met a lot of smart people without a college education and they can all tell the difference between "a building and a hut." Your post wreaks of elitism.

Only to a college professor who is OBSESSED with elitism, racism, political correctness, and every other left-wing social issue. Read my post again. Did I EVER say someone with a college degree shouldn't participate in civic dialogue? NO. Read my post in context, Dan. As a left-wing, economic populist, I can't stand the social leftism that loses election after election - especially away from the coasts. Everyone is NOT the same. They all have every right to an opinion, but did I say they didn't? I only meant one who is less educated may not understand the significance of the building and the nuance of architecture and art. In your world of "everyone is the same" and Gold Stars for all - you fail to see the common sense on so many issues, and you just did it again. We can't ride the progressive train if you can't see differences in people. Read Thomas Frank's What's The Matter With Kansas?. It's this very thing that he believes loses elections for people who would otherwise vote with us. My post was no example of "arrogance," it was a post that simply said, (quote), "It's actually not arrogance to state that a huge number of people are not educated or sophisticated enough to understand a lot of things." Do you really disagree with that? That is common sense!

What a day this has been for people reading things into posts that aren't there. I like your posts, Dan. It seems I should like you a lot but we got off on the wrong foot because you made comments that seemed to indicate that blacks can't be racists because of their unique experiences...or something like that...I remember groaning. But I must be honest that I disagree with the "diversity is supreme" outlook you have. Identity Politics has killed chances of economic populists winning elections. I come from the Elizabeth Warren and Thom Hartmann school and you come from the Angela Davis and Barney Frank school. It allows you to miss common sense things like the above. We'll keep losing elections with social leftists making light of common sense and making those with common sense shake their head - and vote with the Republicans because they can't stomach the kumbaya attitude toward so many things. YES, you can be an leftist economic populist and reject the race and culture baiting. I am one.

Since there is actually no other alternative, you might as well get used to the idea that as the Yin balances the Yang (and the Feng the Shui) that the architectural abomination, that rose from the earth, in time and space, long, long ago, will return to the place from whence it came and then come back again. (maybe better or worse than the first time. =)

AbIuC9hTY9Y

Actually, this post is a pretty good example of arrogance (and I agree with you on Stage Center). You don't need a college degree to participate in civic dialogue. Of course, we should listen to those with expertise, but we shouldn't disregard criticism who don't have a degree in architecture or a degree at all. I've met a lot of smart people without a college education and they can all tell the difference between "a building and a hut." Your post wreaks of elitism.

Not to be an elitist, but "reeks."

:wink:

Steve's recap of where this building went wrong.

1990 article shows Oklahoma City's Stage Center was doomed from start | News OK (http://newsok.com/1990-article-shows-oklahoma-citys-stage-center-was-doomed-from-start/article/4952543)

Only to a college professor who is OBSESSED with elitism, racism, political correctness, and every other left-wing social issue.Read my post again. Did I EVER say someone with a college degree shouldn't participate in civic dialogue? NO. Read my post in context, Dan. As a left-wing, economic populist, I can't stand the social leftism that loses election after election - especially away from the coasts. Everyone is NOT the same. They all have every right to an opinion, but did I say they didn't? I only meant one who is less educated may not understand the significance of the building and the nuance of architecture and art. In your world of "everyone is the same" and Gold Stars for all - you fail to see the common sense on so many issues, and you just did it again. We can't ride the progressive train if you can't see differences in people. Read Thomas Frank's What's The Matter With Kansas?. It's this very thing that he believes loses elections for people who would otherwise vote with us. My post was no example of "arrogance," it was a post that simply said, (quote), "It's actually not arrogance to state that a huge number of people are not educated or sophisticated enough to understand a lot of things." Do you really disagree with that? That is common sense!

What a day this has been for people reading things into posts that aren't there. I like your posts, Dan. It seems I should like you a lot but we got off on the wrong foot because you made comments that seemed to indicate that blacks can't be racists because of their unique experiences...or something like that...I remember groaning. But I must be honest that I disagree with the "diversity is supreme" outlook you have. Identity Politics has killed chances of economic populists winning elections. I come from the Elizabeth Warren and Thom Hartmann school and you come from the Angela Davis and Barney Frank school. It allows you to miss common sense things like the above. We'll keep losing elections with social leftists making light of common sense and making those with common sense shake their head - and vote with the Republicans because they can't stomach the kumbaya attitude toward so many things. YES, you can be an leftist economic populist and reject the race and culture baiting. I am one.

Don't be hating on Barney. He was a quality legislator in his time and did a great deal to save our entire economy from imminent collapse during the "running on fumes" era of the W presidency.

Not to be an elitist, but "reeks."

:wink:

It's a hybrid of leeks and a lot of rain and mold and drainage issues involving the costs of restoration.
Regarding the blight on the local landscape, currently under discussion.

Only to a college professor who is OBSESSED with elitism, racism, political correctness, and every other left-wing social issue. Read my post again. Did I EVER say someone with a college degree shouldn't participate in civic dialogue? NO. Read my post in context, Dan. As a left-wing, economic populist, I can't stand the social leftism that loses election after election - especially away from the coasts. Everyone is NOT the same. They all have every right to an opinion, but did I say they didn't? I only meant one who is less educated may not understand the significance of the building and the nuance of architecture and art. In your world of "everyone is the same" and Gold Stars for all - you fail to see the common sense on so many issues, and you just did it again. We can't ride the progressive train if you can't see differences in people. Read Thomas Frank's What's The Matter With Kansas?. It's this very thing that he believes loses elections for people who would otherwise vote with us. My post was no example of "arrogance," it was a post that simply said, (quote), "It's actually not arrogance to state that a huge number of people are not educated or sophisticated enough to understand a lot of things." Do you really disagree with that? That is common sense!

What a day this has been for people reading things into posts that aren't there. I like your posts, Dan. It seems I should like you a lot but we got off on the wrong foot because you made comments that seemed to indicate that blacks can't be racists because of their unique experiences...or something like that...I remember groaning. But I must be honest that I disagree with the "diversity is supreme" outlook you have. Identity Politics has killed chances of economic populists winning elections. I come from the Elizabeth Warren and Thom Hartmann school and you come from the Angela Davis and Barney Frank school. It allows you to miss common sense things like the above. We'll keep losing elections with social leftists making light of common sense and making those with common sense shake their head - and vote with the Republicans because they can't stomach the kumbaya attitude toward so many things. YES, you can be an leftist economic populist and reject the race and culture baiting. I am one.

You know, you could have clarified your point instead of spending your time making up a political beliefs system for me (which is obviously inaccurate considering you don't know much about me). I didn't like what I thought was the purpose of your post, but maybe I misunderstood it. Certainly no need to go the direction you did. Just respond. I'm happy for you to show me that I was wrong. I did not intend to offend you, but if I did I apologize. Message boards have limitations. Your characterization of me was both inaccurate and unnecessary.

Not to be an elitist, but "reeks."

:wink:

Ha ha. Indeed. I fixed it.

Wow. Amazing how quickly (but sadly predictably) this conversation about a building can devolve to ad hominem attacks beyond the scope of the merits of the subject... about a building.

Wow. Amazing how quickly (but sadly predictably) this conversation about a building can devolve to ad hominem attacks beyond the scope of the merits of the subject... about a building.

Well - it might just be a building to some but brutalism, and its parent modernism, were a political and social movement. Stage Center didn't get designed and built in a vacuum - it was a tool purposefully constructed to further that movement - so in that regard Stage Center HAS fulfilled its true purpose.

A short history of modernism

https://www.mdc.edu/wolfson/Academic/ArtsLetters/art_philosophy/Humanities/history_of_modernism.htm

Well - it might just be a building to some but brutalism, and its parent modernism, were a political and social movement. Stage Center didn't get designed and built in a vacuum - it was a tool purposefully constructed to further that movement - so in that regard Stage Center HAS fulfilled its true purpose.

A short history of modernism

https://www.mdc.edu/wolfson/Academic/ArtsLetters/art_philosophy/Humanities/history_of_modernism.htm

The perhaps this thread should move to the POLITICS section.

If the inspiration for the design of building had come from this, instead of a circuit board, I might feel differently about it . . .
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--6YA8qug---/18mo1dkqdusvajpg.jpg

The perhaps this thread should move to the POLITICS section.

To be honest - it would probably be best in the Religious section - because Modernism became Humanism (which explains why the vast majority of supporters are left-wing atheist - and why the building was not welcomed in OKC).

To be honest - it would probably be best in the Religious section - because Modernism became Humanism (which explains why the vast majority of supporters are left-wing atheist - and why the building was not welcomed in OKC).

This should get interesting.:Smiley171

True, true JTF. And functional too!
Except the part where they put the sun shades on the NORTH side of the building...

Well - it might just be a building to some but brutalism, and its parent modernism, were a political and social movement. Stage Center didn't get designed and built in a vacuum - it was a tool purposefully constructed to further that movement - so in that regard Stage Center HAS fulfilled its true purpose.

A short history of modernism

https://www.mdc.edu/wolfson/Academic/ArtsLetters/art_philosophy/Humanities/history_of_modernism.htm

^^^This is utter political garbage^^^

JTF, I'm with you nearly 100% on urban design issues, but when it comes to architecture, we have to part ways.

As an architect, are you saying you are not a willing participant in any overriding social/political issues that your profession is engaged in trying to solve (cough cough global warming cough cough)? I might agree with this for the modern day architect because they seem to be driven by only two things - profit and fame (and not necessarily in that order). However, for the vast majority of the history of architecture profit and fame was never the motive. Architects had a much higher calling than themselves.

Pretty soon this thread will be irrelevant, and we can gush over a giant parking garage and a twelve story building. Oh boy.

Pretty soon this thread will be irrelevant, and we can gush over a giant parking garage and a twelve story building. Oh boy.

At least we can try and make it the best darn parking garage and twelve story building that we can get.

Maybe they can build a small pond on site for all your tears...

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At least we can try and make it the best darn parking garage and twelve story building that we can get.

Yes, because we are so good at saying "no" to developers. When our choice is something mediocre or a big surface parking lot, which is basically what the Stage Center site will be very soon, people will be saying, "at least it's not a parking lot."

http://vimeo.com/99179185

Thank you for posting, Dan. Seeing that fenced off with the plastic. {{gulp}}
I love Jim Tolbert - he still has passion for Stage Center.

Yes, because we are so good at saying "no" to developers. When our choice is something mediocre or a big surface parking lot, which is basically what the Stage Center site will be very soon, people will be saying, "at least it's not a parking lot."

5 years ago I would have agreed with you but downtown now has a vocal and active collection of armchair development reviewers and they have been able to stop some pretty bad recent hotel proposals and make positive changes to other projects. Members of the local development community have also upped their game to meet the new bar. Things are improving.

https://vimeo.com/99179185

https://vimeo.com/99179185

http://vimeo.com/99179185


https://vimeo.com/99179185

Déjà vu

Maybe they can build a small pond on site for all your tears...

Sent from my BNTV600 using Tapatalk

I'm not tearful, I'm bitter. Give me a hammer and I'll go knock it down myself. Okay, maybe a little tearful. The violins in the video got to me.

I'm not for the removal of the SC, but since it's already happening and it will be demolished. I would rather see it go with a big bang using explosives to implode it rather than see it hit with a wrecking ball. I know that using explosives won't happen.

The video doesn't show up on my iPhone, sorry. Why I didn't see it.

I'm not for the removal of the SC, but since it's already happening and it will be demolished. I would rather see it go with a big bang using explosives to implode it rather than see it hit with a wrecking ball. I know that using explosives won't happen.

Its a big chuck of concrete. Its going to take a lot of work using machines armed with hydraulic jack hammers to remove it.

Its a big chuck of concrete. Its going to take a lot of work using machines armed with hydraulic jack hammers to remove it.

I just want to see some explosives.

I just want to see some explosives.

You just made the FBI list.....j/k

I'm not tearful, I'm bitter. Give me a hammer and I'll go knock it down myself. Okay, maybe a little tearful. The violins in the video got to me.

VaWl2lA7968

Demolition likely begins on Monday.

http://www.oklahoman.com/article/4983505?embargo=1


Rainey Williams Jr., who is clearing the site at Sheridan and Hudson Avenues to make way for a new OGE Energy Corp. headquarters, told The Oklahoman demolition could start as soon as Monday. The site is expected to be cleared by September as classes begin across the street at the new John W. Rex Elementary School.

Williams promises Stage Center’s history will be reflected as part of the new development that will take its place. He also is working with several local organizations on plans to identify and salvage portions of the building to be used as part of a future commemoration of the property.

Demolition likely begins on Monday.

http://www.oklahoman.com/article/4983505?embargo=1

Let's commemorate what we just destroyed. Makes no sense except to attempt to appease those of us who loved Mummer's/Stage Center. I want a rubber stamp with a likeness of the Stage Center so I can stamp it on my OG&E bill each month.

Letting the word out on a Friday with demolition beginning Monday was likely a PR attempt to quell any last minute resistance/criticism/discussion. And still no renderings...

However, it is nice that some parts of the building will be repurposed.

Demolition likely begins on Monday.

http://www.oklahoman.com/article/4983505?embargo=1

If I could take my business to Billy Bob's Electric Company, I'd do it over this by itself. Of course, we have a corporate monopoly who knows they OWN us.

Power companies "public utilities" should be municipally owned like they are all over Oklahoma. You won't find them building skyscrapers and paying multi-million dollar compensation packages to those that run them. Unlike OG$E.
http://ompa.com/
http://www.meso.org/
http://edmondok.com/index.aspx?nid=224
http://www.grda.com/

I still think I'm going to wake-up and this nightmare of Rainey Williams was all just a dream.

Let's commemorate what we just destroyed. Makes no sense except to attempt to appease those of us who loved Mummer's/Stage Center. I want a rubber stamp with a likeness of the Stage Center so I can stamp it on my OG&E bill each month.

Yes, it's sort of like having remnants of the Baum building on display.

Yes, it's sort of like having remnants of the Baum building on display.

I understand it from a PR point-of-view, as Dan mentioned above. I think having the building on display would be much nicer.

Demolition likely begins on Monday.

http://www.oklahoman.com/article/4983505?embargo=1

Meh. This is like Harold's, that defunct purveyor of Okiefied snootery, "preserving" the Boomer sign when it took over a great Norman landmark and turned into offices. I'm beyond furious at the lack of renderings aside from Rainey Williams' half-baked plans.

Letting the word out on a Friday with demolition beginning Monday was likely a PR attempt to quell any last minute resistance/criticism/discussion. And still no renderings...

However, it is nice that some parts of the building will be repurposed.

As I've said, when the SC is gone and that piece of land is either surface parking or anything else, anything else looks good. When its the Stage Center or a mediocre plan, the Stage Center starts looking better and better. Clever ploy.

And I really don't want any reminders of what we lost, personally. If it wasn't worth keeping in its entirety, I don't need to be pandered to with some piece of scrap. Take it to the dump.

Stage Center - The Place, The Memories | News OK (http://newsok.com/stage-center-the-place-the-memories/article/4983782)

So the reporter on KOCO last night mentioned more than once that the building replacing SC is "over 20 stories high." I thought the previous design was for closer to 15 or lower. Am I wrong? And what is the difference in number of stories between mid-rise and high-rise anyway?


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So the reporter on KOCO last night mentioned more than once that the building replacing SC is "over 20 stories high." I thought the previous design was for closer to 15 or lower. Am I wrong? And what is the difference in number of stories between mid-rise and high-rise anyway?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hopefully they've heard something we haven't. While I have no connection to SC, I would like it's replacement to be taller than 15 or so stories. Something in the range of 30-40 would have been nice.

From my experience you can't trust any specifics you get from the local TV stations. They should just report that a tower is the planned replacement and leave the details to Steve and OKCTalk.

I'm surprised the news stations didn't say the stage center was in Bricktown. Kind of like when that person was shot in front of the baseball stadium and suddenly Thunder Alley was a gun range.

Kerry's right. Having worked with local TV news on dozens of stories over the past couple of decades it is frankly shocking how often all sorts of details in their stories are flat-out incorrect. There are a (precious) few reporters who try to nail all of the details, but usually they are just in search of the good sound bite. They are in general VERY cavalier when it comes to that level of detail.

I'm surprised the news stations didn't say the stage center was in Bricktown. Kind of like when that person was shot in front of the baseball stadium and suddenly Thunder Alley was a gun range.

That's a bad example. I don't want to resurrect that whole discussion again, but you are leaving out the part where Thunder Alley was the attractive nuisance that put every single one of the participants there that night and that the fight began in TA before continuing into BT, where the shooting happened.

In fact, you bringing it up actually is an excellent example of TVs poor coverage after all, but in a different way. In that case, skillful PR people used misdirection to hang the shooting on Bricktown, and the media bought it enough that some people think it actually had something to do with the district (which in this particular case was itself an innocent bystander).

Kerry's right. Having worked with local TV news on dozens of stories over the past couple of decades it is frankly shocking how often all sorts of details in their stories are flat-out incorrect. There are a (precious) few reporters who try to nail all of the details, but usually they are just in search of the good sound bite. They are in general VERY cavalier when it comes to that level of detail.

Heck, most local news stations do well to get a grammatically correct sentence on their graphics, let alone worry about the accuracy of the information they report. If you're looking for information that's anything better than very coarse-grained, so to speak, local news isn't the place to find it. It isn't that they are deliberately misleading, its just that they aren't particularly worried about that level of detail. If the "exact" answer is 10, "close to 20" is close enough when the live cam goes on. Now if you want to talk about precise application of makeup and hairspray, well, THAT's something else ENTIRELY.....
(sarcasm).

Heck, I figured they weren't as accurate as Steve or this site. Guess it was wishful thinking that it might end up being better than the plans we've seen so far.


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I hear you, Urbanized. Was more just sarcastically pointing out the awful reporting normally done by them.

I am sticking with my thoughts on this one, that after it's demolished - the site sits empty for a while until someone with deep pockets comes in and looks like a hero - but it was the original plan all along (even if not spoken of).

Here is my guess, RWII low balled the initial renderings so as to lower expectations and as soon as the SC is down he will reveal the 'revised' plan showing a taller building, which will make almost everyone happier. For some people, its not the destination - it is the route.

Cue ominous music...

Just taken by jeepnokc:


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/sc063014a.jpg