Things are still very much undecided and up in the air.

http://newsok.com/proposals-for-stage-center-in-oklahoma-city-fail-to-provide-financing-details/article/3657196?custom_click=pod_headline_financial-news

This is all you need to know:



said her organization is proceeding with a property appraisal that she expects will be completed in 60 days.

Read more: http://newsok.com/proposals-for-stage-center-in-oklahoma-city-fail-to-provide-financing-details/article/3657196#ixzz1p0D4YlHJ

It will be interesting what the value comes back as considering the Convention Center will be buying a much larger piece of land right next door.

Sounds to me like they will be putting the property on the market as soon as the appraisal comes back.

I suppose there is the slight chance someone would buy and want to keep the building, but I think that is highly unlikely.

I am just having a hard time figuring out what there is to get.

1) there is nothing special about the location
2) the building materials are not unique
3) the detail (what there is) is easily replicated
4) the time period it was built in is not special
5) the construction technique is not a lost art
6) brutalism itself was intened to be uninspiring - and definately is not in short supply in downtown OKC.

What would prevent Stage Center from being built anywhere else in OKC?

There is value in the building remaining original. In this case I'm not sure how much value, but it exists. If the glass pyramid thing at the Louvre were to be damaged in a storm, they would replace it as closely as possible to the original. It's as much a piece of art as any of the pieces inside the museum.

It's like a classic car. A 1957 Corvette with all original parts is worth more than a 1957 Corvette with a brand new engine. Even if the one with the new engine has more horsepower, goes faster, and gets better gas mileage. Does it make sense? Not if you don't value the car as a historical piece.

Now, arguably Stage Center is closer to a 1985 Mustang than a '57 Vette. Now matter how closely you restore it to the original, it's only worth so much. But a restored original Stage Center is worth more than a copy that is built on some other site.

There is value in the building remaining original. In this case I'm not sure how much value, but it exists. If the glass pyramid thing at the Louvre were to be damaged in a storm, they would replace it as closely as possible to the original. It's as much a piece of art as any of the pieces inside the museum.

It's like a classic car. A 1957 Corvette with all original parts is worth more than a 1957 Corvette with a brand new engine. Even if the one with the new engine has more horsepower, goes faster, and gets better gas mileage. Does it make sense? Not if you don't value the car as a historical piece.

Now, arguably Stage Center is closer to a 1985 Mustang than a '57 Vette. Now matter how closely you restore it to the original, it's only worth so much. But a restored original Stage Center is worth more than a copy that is built on some other site.

Does that '57 Corvette with original parts run, or is it sitting in the woods behind the trailer all rusted? If they fixed Stage Center - how much of it would be original?

An old farmer bragged that he had the same shovel for 60 years - saying they just don't make them like they used to. Asked how he was able to keep the shovel in working condition after 60 years he said he replaced the handle 3 times and the spade 4 times.

This is all you need to know:



It will be interesting what the value comes back as considering the Convention Center will be buying a much larger piece of land right next door.

You are spot on. I believe this valuation and possible sale will help expedite the negotiations on the CC site. It will establish fair market value. The building will not influence the price much, if any at all. This will be a very interesting appraisal.

Things are still very much undecided and up in the air.

http://newsok.com/proposals-for-stage-center-in-oklahoma-city-fail-to-provide-financing-details/article/3657196?custom_click=pod_headline_financial-news

I "like"d this story on Steve's Facebook page.

Now, arguably Stage Center is closer to a 1985 Mustang than a '57 Vette. Now matter how closely you restore it to the original, it's only worth so much. But a restored original Stage Center is worth more than a copy that is built on some other site.

No, I'm gonna have to say it's more like the green one here...

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r170/OkStateBBall78/Atari-2600-Combat-screenshot.jpg

No, I'm gonna have to say it's more like the green one here...

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r170/OkStateBBall78/Atari-2600-Combat-screenshot.jpg

Combat was a bad ass game. I still have that somewhere.

Combat was a bad ass game. I still have that somewhere.

The original or one of those Atari games for Playstation 2 that looks and plays exactly like the original? Just asking:smile:

Combat was a bad ass game. I still have that somewhere.

:-)

The original or one of those Atari games for Playstation 2 that looks and plays exactly like the original? Just asking:smile:

Oh I have the original. Actually I think it's in my parents' attic, along with the Apple IIc that I had as a kid. I come from a family of packrats. We never throw anything away. We probably have an extra Stage Center in the closet somewhere.

Oh I have the original. Actually I think it's in my parents' attic, along with the Apple IIc that I had as a kid. I come from a family of packrats. We never throw anything away. We probably have an extra Stage Center in the closet somewhere.

I hear ya - my ColecoVision is at my mom's house - and it still works.

There is value in the building remaining original. In this case I'm not sure how much value, but it exists. If the glass pyramid thing at the Louvre were to be damaged in a storm, they would replace it as closely as possible to the original. It's as much a piece of art as any of the pieces inside the museum.

It's like a classic car. A 1957 Corvette with all original parts is worth more than a 1957 Corvette with a brand new engine. Even if the one with the new engine has more horsepower, goes faster, and gets better gas mileage. Does it make sense? Not if you don't value the car as a historical piece.

Now, arguably Stage Center is closer to a 1985 Mustang than a '57 Vette. Now matter how closely you restore it to the original, it's only worth so much. But a restored original Stage Center is worth more than a copy that is built on some other site.

Your comparison to the Glass pyramid is stretching it pretty far. The Louvre could still function with the lose of an entrance that is relatively new for the age of the building and it is but a fraction of the capital costs of the entire complex.

The pyramid is only the tip of a large structure built as a grand entrance. It is totally functional. Any comparisons to the Stage Center in any way is a total reach from those who have likely never been there nor understand the facilities involved or why they were designed the way they were.

It's inevitable... Just tear it down and replace it with another parking lot, another bait and tackle shop, or something of equal significance to the banjo museum. Nothing less will make the "okie creative class" that is clamoring for Stage Center's destruction happy.

It's inevitable... Just tear it down and replace it with another parking lot, another bait and tackle shop, or something of equal significance to the banjo museum. Nothing less will make the "okie creative class" that is clamoring for Stage Center's destruction happy.

It would be great if those who so ardently support the Stage Center could devise a method of expressing their support without the seemingly obligatory insult to Oklahomans, implying the only possible way you would oppose the SC is if you were of what is deemed to be lower intelligence, an "okie," what have you. The mean-spirited generalizations do nothing to support or advocate the cause of saving the SC.

The banjo museum has attracted more people to downtown in the last 12 months than Stage Center has in the last 12 years. Bass Pro attracted more people this week then probably the entire lifespan of Stage Center. As for parking - bad idea.

The Banjo museum actually has something to see. When you've got an unused structure, of course it's going to have less traffic. And, were you to make the Stage Center a Children's museum, it would probably outdraw the Banjo musem by at least a power of 10, and likely more. The proximity of a two parks and a Children's Museum would make downtown a must visit for local families.

The Banjo museum actually has something to see. When you've got an unused structure, of course it's going to have less traffic. And, were you to make the Stage Center a Children's museum, it would probably outdraw the Banjo musem by at least a power of 10, and likely more. The proximity of a two parks and a Children's Museum would make downtown a must visit for local families.

So a Children's Museum is good, but no funding exists. Wonder if there'd be any funding for a Children's Energy Museum? Houston has an energy exhibit that is fascinating with hands on experiments that visualize how pumps work and models of offshore rigs. I don't know if my kids understood it, but I thought it was cool.

The Banjo museum actually has something to see. When you've got an unused structure, of course it's going to have less traffic. And, were you to make the Stage Center a Children's museum, it would probably outdraw the Banjo musem by at least a power of 10, and likely more. The proximity of a two parks and a Children's Museum would make downtown a must visit for local families.

I agree - they should still build a downtown Children's Museum even if they don't spend the first $X million fixing Stage Center. It will be interesting to see if the Children's Museum and Architecture Museum have legs after Stage Center is removed from the equation. They should because both are good ideas, but they probably won't because they were just 'fronts' for saving Stage Center.

I don't think OKC will see another major museum initiative until the AICCM is long finished.

But the AICCM is more of a state-influenced project, is it not, Pete? I'm no expert, but I believe you could do a perfectly terrific Chilrden's Museum in Bricktown for a bare fraction of the AICCM boondoggle, and I personally think you could get plenty of private interest if the SC renovation weren't attached to it. I keep thinking Jasmine Moran down in Seminole, only bigger and better in Bricktown, and can't help but think it would be a smash hit. I just hate it has to carry the SC albatross.

The AICCM has been state and city funded but they are in the process of trying to raise tens of millions in order to finish it.

I'm sure they are hitting up the same resources (city/state, corporations, foundations and individuals) that any new museum would approach.

I don't think OKC will see another major museum initiative until the AICCM is long finished.

Actually Science Museum Oklahoma is in the middle of a $30 million dollar campaign for a building renovation and an exhibit for families with young children. For you folks who would like a children's museum in the city this exhibit is supposed to go a long way towards meeting those needs.

From a press release issued by the museum back in December;

OKLAHOMA CITY – Science Museum Oklahoma is honored to announce they have received a $1 million gift from Love’s Travel Stops.

“Love’s is excited to announce a $1 million donation to support renovations and improvements to Science Museum Oklahoma,” said Jenny Love Meyer, Director of Communications Love's Travel Stops. “The Science Museum is a true educational gem serving children and families in Oklahoma. This partnership furthers Love’s commitment to support education and youth-focused programs in our home state.”

Within the next five years Science Museum Oklahoma will invest $30 million in new exhibits and facilities. Funded by a planning grant from the Donald W. Reynolds Foundation, the museum has undergone an extensive planning process dedicated to providing Oklahoma with a science museum of national prominence. A comprehensive master plan has identified two high impact projects which will be completed within five years. These projects include: a new iconic main entrance and a major permanent exhibit for families with young children.

“It has been said that a museum is a prism of the society in which it resides. It is a reflection of the society’s cultural and educational values presented to the world in a way that embodies civic pride and inspires its community,” said James Farris, Science Museum Oklahoma Board Chair. “Science Museum Oklahoma’s message is, ‘You are important. What you learn, how you play, and where you grow with your family is important.’ The gift from Love’s supports our commitment to providing the best interactive learning environment possible.”

Science Museum Oklahoma retained Rand Elliott of Rand Elliott + Associates to transform the museum’s plain exterior and inadequate lobby. Elliott was tasked with creating a design that will be the physical manifestation of the museum’s mission to reveal the wonder and relevance of science. He enthusiastically accepted the challenge and, with his experience in creating iconic public spaces, the result is certain to garner attention. The collaboration of Science Museum Oklahoma and Rand Elliott has resulted in a campus plan guaranteed to enlighten and inspire for many years to come.

The revitalized campus will be the perfect setting for the museum’s new exhibit designed for families with young children. As families enter the exhibit they will step into a life-size coloring book. They’ve entered a whimsical neighborhood where the familiar meets the fanciful as young children get a taste of the wonderful world of science. While designed with young children in mind, activities are also provided to educate and entertain older siblings and their parents. When complete this exhibit will set a new standard for how Science Museum Oklahoma introduces young children and their families to science.

Forgot about the Science Museum as I think I'm the one that posted the article back when this was announced. Thanks for the reminder.

And I've always thought of that facility as essentially a children's museum.

Forgot about the Science Museum as I think I'm the one that posted the article back when this was announced. Thanks for the reminder.

And I've always thought of that facility as essentially a children's museum.
Then it would seem the corresponding crutch proposal for the same kind of facility just to save the SC is pretty pointless..

Then it would seem the corresponding crutch proposal for the same kind of facility just to save the SC is pretty pointless..

Exactly! That's what I brought up a long time ago in this thread. No reason for a children's museum when we have one in the Adventure District...

Actually Science Museum Oklahoma is in the middle of a $30 million dollar campaign for a building renovation and an exhibit for families with young children. For you folks who would like a children's museum in the city this exhibit is supposed to go a long way towards meeting those needs.

From a press release issued by the museum back in December;

OKLAHOMA CITY – Science Museum Oklahoma is honored to announce they have received a $1 million gift from Love’s Travel Stops.

“Love’s is excited to announce a $1 million donation to support renovations and improvements to Science Museum Oklahoma,” said Jenny Love Meyer, Director of Communications Love's Travel Stops. “The Science Museum is a true educational gem serving children and families in Oklahoma. This partnership furthers Love’s commitment to support education and youth-focused programs in our home state.”

Within the next five years Science Museum Oklahoma will invest $30 million in new exhibits and facilities. Funded by a planning grant from the Donald W. Reynolds Foundation, the museum has undergone an extensive planning process dedicated to providing Oklahoma with a science museum of national prominence. A comprehensive master plan has identified two high impact projects which will be completed within five years. These projects include: a new iconic main entrance and a major permanent exhibit for families with young children.

“It has been said that a museum is a prism of the society in which it resides. It is a reflection of the society’s cultural and educational values presented to the world in a way that embodies civic pride and inspires its community,” said James Farris, Science Museum Oklahoma Board Chair. “Science Museum Oklahoma’s message is, ‘You are important. What you learn, how you play, and where you grow with your family is important.’ The gift from Love’s supports our commitment to providing the best interactive learning environment possible.”

Science Museum Oklahoma retained Rand Elliott of Rand Elliott + Associates to transform the museum’s plain exterior and inadequate lobby. Elliott was tasked with creating a design that will be the physical manifestation of the museum’s mission to reveal the wonder and relevance of science. He enthusiastically accepted the challenge and, with his experience in creating iconic public spaces, the result is certain to garner attention. The collaboration of Science Museum Oklahoma and Rand Elliott has resulted in a campus plan guaranteed to enlighten and inspire for many years to come.

The revitalized campus will be the perfect setting for the museum’s new exhibit designed for families with young children. As families enter the exhibit they will step into a life-size coloring book. They’ve entered a whimsical neighborhood where the familiar meets the fanciful as young children get a taste of the wonderful world of science. While designed with young children in mind, activities are also provided to educate and entertain older siblings and their parents. When complete this exhibit will set a new standard for how Science Museum Oklahoma introduces young children and their families to science.

I'm told that the science museum is very, very different from the children's museum being proposed.

The Science Museum is, well, scientific in its approach. There are many subjects of interest to children, science being only one of them. I certainly think it would be possible to come up with a completely different approach that would be very interesting as well. I think it might be fun to have a children's art museum personally, with art that appeals to children. That is something you don't see everywhere. But there are multiple options, and any of them could be very exciting.

I'm told that the science museum is very, very different from the children's museum being proposed.

The Science Museum, as a whole, is very much for the entire family with exhibits and programs for all ages. The new proposed exhibit is supposed to be geared more towards young children with a core audience of around 3-6 years old. From what I here the new exhibit may be about the size of some children's museums and will have a science theme.

The Science Museum seems to be very sensitive about being perceived as a children's museum. The name change and rebranding over the last several years has tried to emphasize the family and "all ages" perspective. It'll be interesting to see how they promote the new exhibit without giving the impression that the museum itself is a kid's museum.

The context of the AICCM is a particularly interesting point. Talk about a stalled project...

Steve' latest update.

http://newsok.com/negotiations-over-oklahoma-citys-stage-center-stall/article/3674303

Steve' latest update.

http://newsok.com/negotiations-over-oklahoma-citys-stage-center-stall/article/3674303

Can't say that's surprising any.

Any word on what the appraisal came back as? Based on comments quoted in the article I'll bet it was a lot more than they thought and with a mystery tower in the works, high demand for urban residential, and a national economy with a gloomy outlook the future is now, not 12 months from now.

Anthony agreed “the door is still open” for a deal to be done with the children's museum organizers, but said an appraisal on the property has been completed and the theater's fate may be decided by her board later this month.

“We have determined options have to be broader than the not-for-profit community,” Anthony said. “We believe it's inappropriate not to deal with this after it has been empty for two years.”

Sounds like they are getting serious interest from private developers.

Translation - we have another buyer and it is more than you can afford.

STEVE: Is the tornado looking thing in the rendering one that you had mentioned over in your blog some time ago? I remember it looking pretty kewl if it is the same thing.

Translation - we have another buyer and it is more than you can afford.

And it sets the pricing stage for the CC site negotiations. It will now start to get interesting with real facts, not speculation.

And it sets the pricing stage for the CC site negotiations. It will now start to get interesting with real facts, not speculation.

that price has already been set very high by the vitagraph property

SID: thanks...that's it

that price has already been set very high by the vitagraph property

Talk about an elaborate way for the city to shoot itself in the foot.

Sounds like they are getting serious interest from private developers.

Yup. Pretty hard not to draw that inference, and pretty plain way of saying it without saying it.

Group seeking children’s museum for Stage Center negotiating deal, organizer says

by Brian Brus (Journal Record)
Published: May 14th, 2012

OKLAHOMA CITY – Stage Center in downtown Oklahoma City may be rescued within a week, said Tracey Zeeck, coordinator of a campaign to move a children’s museum into the landmark building.
If a deal doesn’t shake out as Zeeck’s group hopes, the building’s owners... still plan to look for other suitors, said Nancy Anthony, executive director... of the Oklahoma City Community Foundation.

“We’re moving ahead through the process,” she said. “To say we’ve hit an impasse would be an overstatement. We’ve explained the circumstances and what needs to be done, so it’s not as though we’re negotiating anything. There’s no impasse.

“The crux of the matter is that we need to move on; we need to look for other opportunities,” Anthony said. “It’s been two years that the building has been vacant and almost unusable. It’s not fair to the citizens of Oklahoma City to perpetuate this so that maybe someone can raise the money and maybe try it again. We need something more definite.”

The nonprofit foundation maintains the oddly segmented property at a cost of $12,000 to $15,000 per month, or about $150,000 per year, officials said. The 3-acre tract at Sheridan and Hudson avenues has potential value as raw real estate, especially with the increasing emphasis on MAPS 3 projects and so-called Core to Shore development following the relocation of Interstate 40.

But civic leaders have been reluctant to simply let it go. Architectural groups have deemed the building a significant design by John M. Johansen, a student of Walter Gropius and Frank Lloyd Wright, and possibly one of Johansen’s most influential buildings. It received the American Institute of Architects’ National Honor Award in 1972, the same year that the Museum of Modern Art in New York City accepted the building model into its permanent collection.

So the central Oklahoma chapter of the American Institute of Architects stepped up to the challenge of saving the building when it learned that the foundation was considering its sale. The AIA chapter asked for permission to broaden the search, which turned up only two proposals by the March 1 deadline. The most promising, submitted by Zeeck’s group, is to convert the center to a children’s museum, expected to be less expensive than trying to upgrade it as a viable theater venue. The Children’s Museum of Phoenix has been a partner in promoting the plan.

Zeeck would not discuss details of the deal, nor reveal the identity of the other party. However, she did agree with Anthony and said she supports the foundation’s position.

“I think the community foundation has been a pleasure to work with,” Zeeck said. “They haven’t done one thing that we didn’t expect or weren’t told about,” she said. They have to represent their constituents and be good stewards of their resources. We completely understand their position. We know that ultimately they’re doing what’s right.”

Regardless of the success of negotiations this month, Zeeck said supporters of a children’s museum are dedicated to make it a reality, even if they have to move away from downtown. They have been offered a few acres elsewhere in the city, she said.

Anthony said the group still has four months to act before outside bids are invited. The foundation offered to hold Stage Center through Sept. 1 for a $25,000 deposit.

“We gave them an opportunity to follow up, not to close the door on the issue and say, ‘Time’s up,’” Anthony said. “We gave them the right of first refusal to buy the property in case we have an opportunity to sell it. … But we need to tie this up. It can’t be left hanging for much longer.”

Sure sounds to me like the Foundation is trying to give this other project every chance, but also making it clear (without saying it) that there is clear and apparently ready interest from other parties. Looks to me like they've given them four months to come up with an offer that matches the one they have in their hip pocket, as it were.

Well it sounds like Nancy Anthony is making certain to avoid the appearance of stonewalling the preservationists, but I bet she has a clear preference to work with the prospective developers instead, particularly considering who those developers could be backed by. That's the kind of thing that could translate into stronger corporate support for her organization, which is understandable. Likewise, PO had to pull the plug on the SR opposition when Devon threatened to pull contributions.

The game changer will be if Zeeck actually does get the big-time donor to come forward.

Interesting read on the Mechanic Theater by John M. Johansen. They're turning it from one of the "World's Top Ten Ugliest Buildings" into this highrise of mixed retail, residential, hotel space, and underground parking.

Link (http://www.davidsbrown.com/commercial/commercial-upcoming/mechanic_theater.html)

http://www.davidsbrown.com/images/mechanic1.jpg


I know I'm late on this, what is this and when will it be built?

That is in Baltimore, not OKC. The link you quoted has more information if you're still interested...

Easy to understand the confusion on locale... on first glance, the building to the left is Skirvinesque and one could probably find examples of other buildings in the rendering here in OKC too (but not in the same proximity/location)

Easy to understand the confusion on locale... on first glance, the building to the left is Skirvinesque and one could probably find examples of other buildings in the rendering here in OKC too (but not in the same proximity/location)

As I was scrolling down and noticed that the first building that caught my eye was the building that looks like the Skirvin so yes, very easy to confuse them.

Easy to understand the confusion on locale... on first glance, the building to the left is Skirvinesque and one could probably find examples of other buildings in the rendering here in OKC too (but not in the same proximity/location)

He quoted the link himself... :butbutbut

This may be the death knell for Stage Center...




Children's museum organization ends effort to save Stage Center in Oklahoma City

An organization that formed in January to acquire and preserve downtown Oklahoma City's troubled Stage Center so it could be turned into a children's museum is moving on after determining the project can't be funded.


Read more: http://newsok.com/childrens-museum-organization-ends-effort-to-save-stage-center-in-oklahoma-city/article/3691388#ixzz20H8hOcWn

That link is going to be dead now - they posted an earlier version of the story. The correct, updated version should be posted soon.

Steve, can we assume the foundation will now start working with potential developers for that site?

There seems to be interest and I'm not aware of anyone else interested in trying to make use of the current facility.

Yeah. Have you seen the correct version of the story now with the interview with Beffort? It's online now. What happened was I wrote the story about the children's museum yesterday, was going to print with it today, and I decided to hold it to add in the information about the sale. Unfortunately there was a publishing system quirk that led to the older version being picked up by the central desk, and well, long story short, I just spent the evening fixing it.
Anyway, they're not going to tear it down until a buyer is selected, and there's still an opening for someone to come in with a plan to buy the theater and keep it as part of a new development. Now, do I see there being great odds of that happening? Not really.

Thanks, Steve. Great job getting the feedback from Beffort.

Here's the link to the updated story:

http://newsok.com/childrens-museum-group-ends-effort-to-save-oklahoma-citys-stage-center-as-building-goes-up-for-sale/article/3691388

A pity. Not a surprise, but a pity all the same.

Yup, I'm with Kevin. Let's just hope we get some worthy development proposals on this site that make it worth tearing down an iconic piece of architecture.

How about making this part of a deal with the Fred Jones Ford people...

They had wanted to develop the property that is likely to be taken for the convention center. Why not have them shift over to this site?

At first thought, I very much like your suggestion.