^

Good points, especially since part of the charm of this area is the edginess.

Teo9699: that's why I left 23rd street tattoo and body piercing and cece's wigs off my list. Those three you mentioned may have some redeeming value, but I'm not sure. The tire place would make a cool patio restaurant or something. The others are retail and may be salvagable but take up huge locations. If they stay around I would prefer to see them downsize a bit.

As crazy as it sounds, If I was concerned with "hipness" I'd be very cautious with how I approached this. This might gentrify the area to the point of not being "hip" anymore. There is a fine balance between seedy, cool and upscale.

True, but that can't be confused with trashy, which is what places like credit jewelry, all those quick loan and cash now places, CSL plasma, and rundown pawnshops appear to be bringing in.

True, but that can't be confused with trashy, which is what places like credit jewelry, all those quick loan and cash now places, CSL plasma, and rundown pawnshops appear to be bringing in.

I think a vast majority of your list was dead on.

I even wish there were a way to somehow include the buildings the chain restaurants are in. Their parking lots take up so much space. I'm not necessarily opposed to TBell and Subway...but those structures are going to hinder the livelihood of that area.

What is everyone considering Uptown 23rd? I know this question is a lot like what does everyone consider downtown, but I consider Uptown from Shartel to Robinson. Does it go further east or west for others?

I'd say at least Classen to I-235, and really farther west than that.

In the short term, 235 to Classen, but long term 235 to Penn. The Uptown23rd group includes OCU as part of their organization, which is why I say Penn.

Our Businesses :: Uptown 23rd Merchants Association (http://uptown23rd.com/our-businesses/)

You may even include everything east up until the Capitol in the long run.

The district self identifies from Penn to Broadway. Most of the concentration, and the more exciting development, has been between Classen and Broadway, but several quality businesses that are very much a part of the district lie between Classen and Penn: Mutts, Sala Thai, Taj, Pirate's Alley, Fabric Factory, the remodeled Mexican restaurant, and Rehearsals (whenever that actually opens).

I live very near here, and the quality of this stretch (with the hope that it will continue to improve) was a major factor when we chose our home.

On a completely different note, current sketchy left over businesses I would like to see disappear from the main retail area in Uptown. For many reasons, but largely because they fail to keep up their property and/or don't provide the type or quality of retail/restaurants that will move the district forward:

All sketchy loan companies
Credit Jewelry
Queens Beauty Supply
Everything on the Q-mart block at 23rd and Robinson
Family Dollar
Truong Thanh (Strange dilapidated multi-colored Asian market)
7 day grocery
Pawn Bargain Center
CSL Plasma
Planned Parenthood (Nothing against this, just not there)
H&R Block
Paseo Church (again, nothing against this...just not on the main drag in uptown)
Churches Chicken (come on, could we at least get a chicken express or Rasin' Cains there?)
Martinez Tires
Carwash at Robinson and 23rd

Hey now, let's not do away with all of the urban grit. Not defending any of these in particular, but some of these businesses provide character. We don't need everything to be a super-Yuppie haven to see improvement in the area.

Hey now, let's not do away with all of the urban grit. Not defending any of these in particular, but some of these businesses provide character. We don't need everything to be a super-Yuppie haven to see improvement in the area.

I agree. Some seem to want super-polished and clean urban areas.

I don't want that.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQAPr52G-1SrYnFBZau5iJCqUBfq3zI2Wf1RGj5bXNK2NJbsSv4

I agree. Some seem to want super-polished and clean urban areas.

I don't want that.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQAPr52G-1SrYnFBZau5iJCqUBfq3zI2Wf1RGj5bXNK2NJbsSv4

I don't want super polished, but come on now, some on that list may be a stretch, but some definitely need to go. They aren't retail oriented, are just above seedy at best, and don't need to be in a retail/restaurant/bar/ entertainment district.

I don't want super polished, but come on now, some on that list may be a stretch, but some definitely need to go. They aren't retail oriented, are just above seedy at best, and don't need to be in a retail/restaurant/bar/ entertainment district.

I don't disagree. But it's also a living, breathing neighborhood, not just an entertainment / bar district. OKC has scrubbed the life out of areas before and it usually doesn't go well. All I'm saying is I think we should first focus on filling in the vacant spaces before we consider ousting existing businesses.

In my opinion, things like the beauty parlors, asian grocery stores, palm readers, etc can be absorbed into a funky, urban district but things like the loan companies and tire shops need to go.

The thing that makes urban areas great is a diversity of businesses. You should be able to live in an urban area because it has everything you may need within walking, biking, or a very short driving distance.

I may not like all of the business in the area, but if the market supports them then they should remain. By trying to force out businesses, you create fake urban areas. Fun to visit but not great to live in.

The thing that makes urban areas great is a diversity of businesses. You should be able to live in an urban area because it has everything you may need within walking, biking, or a very short driving distance.

I may not like all of the business in the area, but if the market supports them then they should remain. By trying to force out businesses, you create fake urban areas. Fun to visit but not great to live in.

You seriously took the words out of my mouth. Somewhere in the past few years a strain of urbanity formed and started becoming synonymous with expensive restaurants, overpriced McCondo developments, and grown up fratdaddies and sorositutes that occupied them.

Most people would not realize the incredible diversity of areas like Crestwood, Linwood, Cleveland, etc. the neighborhoods roughly along 23rd. The street, while not resembling a dump, should reflect this.

When I travel, I find myself enjoying my stay in the gritty areas with tire shops, dive bars, pawn shops, loan companies, etc. because mixed in are some nice developments, great local restaurants, and real people. I usually feel uncomfortable in sterile areas with perfectly clean and powerwashed sidewalks, only expensive 5 star restaurants, and full of 2 million dollar houses etc. The grit makes it feel down to earth to me. \

I am not saying there is anything wrong with those things. But a great neighborhood should be one where a 2 million dollar townhouse can live across the street from a small local tire shop and no one minds.

Deep Deuce is a great example of this, you have very expensive and nice Brownstone townhomes next door and across the street from a gritty, urban car mechanic garage. You have an $800,000 home being built literally right next to apartments and across the street from a nice but decently gritty looking pizza place. You have a grocery store underneath apartments across the street from a pretty nice hotel. You have a neighborhood bar/grill nestled in between apartments. There's a very expensive house on 2nd and Oklahoma next door to very gritty railroad tracks and an underpass.

Deep Deuce has a terrific mixture of grit and polish and all seem to work together.

It's pretty nice to be able to walk across the street, drop your car off for an oil change or new tires on your day off, walk to a coffee shop and pick up a coffee, then go sit on your balcony and enjoy the skyline. I must admit that not having to drive everywhere is the ultimate luxury, to me. And I'll take a little "grit" to have that.

There is a big difference between an mechanic and sketchy high interest loan stores, credit jewelry, planned parenthood, and rundown pawnshops. I could live with a few of the other places I mentioned if they improved there property but I still several all but a few would be much better suited off the main retail strip.

We've had the funky, gritty neighborhoods and they have brought dilapidated buildings, vagrants, gangs, etc. I can see why urbanists want to keep it. It was doing so well before. Lol. There's a difference between hipster and dumpster.

It needs to be clean. It doesn't need to be sterile, but clean.

Like has been said...places like CeeCee's Wigs and 23rd Street Body Piercing are great tenants and hopefully stay for awhile. And with clean up, things like the small asian market are great.

And I don't think anyone here is advocating that we make this a super upscale area, otherwise H&R block would still very much have a place.

It just needs to have some direction. Between Western, Classen, Broadway, and several other streets where development can creep toward 22nd/24th on the N/S streets there are plenty of places some of these tenants could go that open up 23rd to be a more interesting district.

Plus, with places like BTT, Cuppies and Joe, CeeCee's, Grandad's, OrangeLeaf, Chic Salon...I just don't see this place becoming even as upscale as Deep Deuce.

Grandad's really represents what this district is going to be like in the long run: Diverse

We've had the funky, gritty neighborhoods and they have brought dilapidated buildings, vagrants, gangs, etc. I can see why urbanists want to keep it. It was doing so well before. Lol. There's a difference between hipster and dumpster.
I don't think I understand. Please elaborate.

OKC is such a sprawler that I think we have the luxury of gentrification not harming our city. Other cities, such as Manhattan, Brooklyn, San Francisco, etc. don't have land so displacement of small businesses to have gourmet coffee shops and expensive condos can be destructive. Great urban neighborhoods, IMO, have a blend of businesses, upscale, downscale and middle of the road. Areas are provided character by their distinguishing characteristics. I find nothing harmful about Granddad's bar sharing a street with a tire shop, although I will give you that fly-by-night loan shops and pawn shops don't add character to a neighborhood. Hopefully 23rd Street will be wildly successful in filling in the empty gaps -- and they are considerable -- as well as finishing the Tower Theatre renovation, a project for which there appears to be no timeline.

I don't think I understand. Please elaborate.

There is a line between "gritty" and "run down". 23rd certainly has been gritty and urban if you want to view it that way, but mostly it has been run down. It is the cleaning up and investment that has brought life. Sometimes I think some on here want it both ways...keep the run down businesses that never invested in themselves or the neighborhood but then want others to invest in it. There is nothing wrong with a tattoo parlor, but a street where that is the main business along with plasma clinics, high interest loan stores and welfare offices probably aren't ever going to be an economic engine or desirable for other than the customers of those services. Without the promise of financial return commensurate with an adequate investment, those kinds of areas will keep deteriorating. We have been doing that, and now are cleaning things up and investing.

The truth is, 23rd is much more likely to be like mid-town than the Plaza District. And that will be good for downtown in general.

I think the route from downtown through Automobile Alley and Midtown, down 23rd and down Classen, and on to Penn Square and/or Classen to the Curve and 63rd and Western will wind up being a great spine around which the new OKC will keep developing.

Here are a couple of photos I snapped last year when walking 23rd.

As has been pointed out, there are some great improvements in the area but when you have to walk by something like this to get from one to another, it's pretty depressing.

As a side note, I'm sure several municipal codes are being broken by this particular building.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/23rd2.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/23rd1.jpg

Pete, you're helping me make my point here. These photos are of the abandoned spaces that can be given new life. Let's focus on those first before driving out existing business. Not everything has to be a perfect yuppie utopia. Hopefully, 23rd Street will serve all OKC residents, as it is probably our most important east-west street.

Demo tape is now around the three existing buildings and a dumpster is on site for the new Raising Caines on the SW corner of 23rd and Penn.

Demo tape is now around the three existing buildings and a dumpster is on site for the new Raising Caines on the SW corner of 23rd and Penn.

Wow. I drove through there at lunch and didn't notice any of that.... Then again there were two college students walking their bikes through the crosswalk. So I might have been a little distracted. :o

Demo tape is now around the three existing buildings and a dumpster is on site for the new Raising Caines on the SW corner of 23rd and Penn.

SW corner of 23rd and Penn is the 7-11. Did you mean SE corner?

I do. Thanks.

I do. Thanks.

Great. As much as I am unimpressed by a Raising Caines over there, I am glad something is being done with that corner. It has been dormant since I started in college in 1999 two blocks away.

Great. More irresistible smelling fried chicken wafting through the air when I get thru working out at Gold's Express.

The Golden Chick is in the parking lot of Gold's Express and smells super amazing pre-workout and post-workout it smells a little like heaven.

Great. More irresistible smelling fried chicken wafting through the air when I get thru working out at Gold's Express.

The Golden Chick is in the parking lot of Gold's Express and smells super amazing pre-workout and post-workout it smells a little like heaven.

I feel you. I work out at Planet Fitness on Express way and when I walk out, I smell BWW and Outback...

This is a good idea and should help the area develop a unique environment, one in particular that is neither sterilized nor homogenized.

Do we know where? It would be great if this was somewhere outside of The Rise and we can see some other things land in that space. Tower Theater block would be good.

This concept sounds a lot like The Max in the bluedome up in Tulsa.

I would like to see it in the building on the NW corner of Dewey and lee. Would be a perfect spot for this if it is at all similar to The Max.

This concept sounds a lot like The Max in the bluedome up in Tulsa.

I would like to see it in the building on the NW corner of Dewey and lee. Would be a perfect spot for this if it is at all similar to The Max.

Dewey and Lee run parallel ;)

Dewey and Lee run parallel ;)

Ha, didnt get much sleep last night... Dewey and 23rd.

Speaking of the 80's, my 1980's self is starting to get pretty jealous of everything that is happening in OKC, particularly the nightlife piece.

Throughout that decade I was in my 20's, worked downtown and went out several nights a week. I had a large crew of friends that did the same; we all got out of college about the same time and were constantly prowling for things to do.

This will demonstrate how far the City has come: Our two biggest hangouts were the T-bar (now demolished but adjacent to the old Split T) and The Varsity (also demolished but formerly at 63rd & Western).

Both were fun only because there were a bunch of young, single people with nowhere else to go... But they were super lame in every other respect. And that was about it, apart from going to Confetti at 63rd & May or some other lame-o, short-lived club.

As much as locals love to mock Bricktown, that wasn't even there (there was a club that popped up for a while but it didn't last). Absolutely nothing in Midtown; Plaza Court was shuttered and I honestly don't remember even venturing down there. Forget about AA, DD, 23rd Street or the Plaza District. Paseo had an El Charito and that was it. There wasn't even anything on Memorial!! I remember going to a scary dance place on Classen a couple of times. And if we were really, REALLY adventurous we'd slip into Angles on 39th.


You kids today have no idea how good you have it!! ;)

Would have killed for McNellie's/Cafe do Brasil/Louies/1492 or The Mule/Saints or Skinny Slims/Bricktown Brewery/Tap Works/Red Pin, etc. or Republic or Edna's/Drunken Fry/Hi Lo.... And don't even get me started on restaurants!!

Plenty of really cool concepts on the way too: Pump Bar, Fassler Hall, Dust Bowl, Empire Slice House, FlashBack, WKSY, WXYZ Bar and tons more.

Speaking of the 80's, my 1980's self is starting to get pretty jealous of everything that is happening in OKC, particularly the nightlife piece...
I've had the same conversation repeatedly with my best friend recently, usually over beers at a place like Grandad's or The Drum Room or some other new joint. When I was 21, we had the places you mention, Sipango, VZD's (of course the "old" people in their late twenties and early thirties dominated that place and Edna's, so who really wanted to go there...). For dance clubs we had Quicksilver's at 10th & MacArthur (!!!) and...not much. Norman had it a LITTLE bit better, but we spent plenty of weekends in Dallas. These days, there is something/somewhere worth going to seven nights a week in this town. Lucky for modern day me, I am still around and I still enjoy going out.

As much as locals love to mock Bricktown, that wasn't even there (there was a club that popped up for a while but it didn't last). Absolutely nothing in Midtown; Plaza Court was shuttered and I honestly don't remember even venturing down there. Forget about AA, DD, 23rd Street or the Plaza District. Paseo had an El Charito and that was it. There wasn't even anything on Memorial!! I remember going to a scary dance place on Classen a couple of times. And if we were really, REALLY adventurous we'd slip into Angles on 39th.


You kids today have no idea how good you have it!! ;)

Would have killed for McNellie's/Cafe do Brasil/Louies/1492 or The Mule/Saints or Skinny Slims/Bricktown Brewery/Tap Works/Red Pin, etc. or Republic or Edna's/Drunken Fry/Hi Lo.... .


I remember the club on Classen. I think it was the Bowery and was in the old church. There was also the Velvet underground in the basement along Classen around 30th. Edna's opened up around 1987 because I was 20 at the time and would sneak in there. The HiLo has been around for years and don't forget the Cock even though it was shut down for awhile.

Speaking of the 80's, my 1980's self is starting to get pretty jealous of everything that is happening in OKC, particularly the nightlife piece.

Throughout that decade I was in my 20's, worked downtown and went out several nights a week. I had a large crew of friends that did the same; we all got out of college about the same time and were constantly prowling for things to do.

This will demonstrate how far the City has come: Our two biggest hangouts were the T-bar (now demolished but adjacent to the old Split T) and The Varsity (also demolished but formerly at 63rd & Western).

Both were fun only because there were a bunch of young, single people with nowhere else to go... But they were super lame in every other respect. And that was about it, apart from going to Confetti at 63rd & May or some other lame-o, short-lived club.

As much as locals love to mock Bricktown, that wasn't even there (there was a club that popped up for a while but it didn't last). Absolutely nothing in Midtown; Plaza Court was shuttered and I honestly don't remember even venturing down there. Forget about AA, DD, 23rd Street or the Plaza District. Paseo had an El Charito and that was it. There wasn't even anything on Memorial!! I remember going to a scary dance place on Classen a couple of times. And if we were really, REALLY adventurous we'd slip into Angles on 39th.


You kids today have no idea how good you have it!! ;)

Would have killed for McNellie's/Cafe do Brasil/Louies/1492 or The Mule/Saints or Skinny Slims/Bricktown Brewery/Tap Works/Red Pin, etc. or Republic or Edna's/Drunken Fry/Hi Lo.... And don't even get me started on restaurants!!

Plenty of really cool concepts on the way too: Pump Bar, Fassler Hall, Dust Bowl, Empire Slice House, FlashBack, WKSY, WXYZ Bar and tons more.
The only thing that I knew of at Plaza Court was The Bowery years before it moved to the church on Classen which was the gay club The Free Spirit in the early 80's.

We had quite a few places that we went to even after beer went to 21, my friends parents owned Charlie's Chili and he knew a lot of the people at other clubs. The bar manager at The Samurai used to work at Charlie's, we were going there before Ichiro really got it going. Knowing people at many of those places allowed us to get in easily and drink pretty cheaply. In the mid-80's for awhile we went to restaurants as some of our friends were under 21, usually the Interurban at Northpark Mall, Bennigan's down the street and Garfield's on a rotation. We got to know many of the staffs which worked out in our favor as well. We also went to Norman, Stillwater, Tulsa and Dallas often.

Yeah, I also remember HANGING OUT AT GARFIELD'S. AT THE FREAKING MALL. Geez. Somebody kill the 80s me.

My buddy reminded me tonight (sitting at Grandad's, again) that Samurai was a decent regular hang too. Saw lots of shows there...

We didn't go to the one at the mall, May & Hefner (before Dugout) or the one on Main in Norman were really the only two that I can think of that we went to.

The dance club in Bricktown was Pyramid (late 80s). There was also a very good dance club in the church on Classen called Inertia (late 80s). HiLo was good throughout. VZDs was good from late 80s on. The aforementioned Velvet Underground hosted cool punk rock gigs, as did the Blue Note. OKC has never been totally dead.

Wasn't Inertia in the church on Classen AFTER a place called Pandaemonium? If so, Inertia was nineties, as Pandaemonium was circa '90-'91. Prior to that it was Bowery II. I got here too late and was really too young to experience the original Bowery/Velvet Underground which totally bums out the punk rock me (the list of bands that played there is astounding). The dance club me definitely spent a lot of time in the church on Classen, but mostly in the early nineties.

The place in the Kingman Building (Pyramid) was also great for a short while around '88-'89. Before that there was a place in there that I never made it into...(maybe named something like Club 508?). In the basement of that building was Kinetix, which had quite a few live shows.

I agree that it was never totally dead, but many if not most of these places were short-lived, and few and far between. Not to mention most of them were limited to weekends. These days even Sun/Mon/Tues are legitimate options (I can generally find quality live music 7 nights a week in multiple locations), and the critical mass is great and improving seemingly every few weeks. It's an exciting time that I could only dream of when I was freshly-legal.

My original point was that while the City has obviously grown in the last few decades, the nightlife options have increased disproportionately and seem to be on the verge of being an asset rather than what absolutely was a liability.

In the 80's, OKC was still around a million people and we are all struggling to come up with places that were very, very lame. And entire sections of the central core were virtually dead for long periods of time. I'm as nostalgic and sentimental as anyone but the Samurai was a horrible place with low ceilings in a strip center on N. May. Still, this was among the "best" limited options at the time.

Now, there are even raves on S. Robinson and in the converted Kamp's Grocery!!


I mean all this as a positive... That OKC is really starting to come around with tons of places to go every night of the week and plenty more to come.

those buildings on the SE corner of 23rd & Penn have been demo'd

per a sign application from this weeks urban design agenda .. Billy Sims BBQ is coming to 2224 NW 23rd st

Already renovating the space. I think it's the old blockbuster.

Already renovating the space. I think it's the old blockbuster.

I believe you are correct.

Already renovating the space. I think it's the old blockbuster.

It is. They look very close to opening. The menu board went up last week, and the signs were put up over the weekend.

It's nice to see some investment with this and Raising Cane's coming to 23rd west of the Uptown area (although Cane's will technically be inside the Uptown district).

I think Billy Sims will do well at that location.

Better tenant than Blockbuster for sure. This will actually bring some traffic!

Don't forget Papa Murphy's recently moved in next to where Billy Sims is going. Definitely better than Blockbuster and a loan store.

And there is some juice/smoothie place that opened, or is about to open, next to Golds Gym. Got some flyer for it but tossed it and dont remember the name.

And there is some juice/smoothie place that opened, or is about to open, next to Golds Gym. Got some flyer for it but tossed it and dont remember the name.

Sounds like it was important to you!

It is. They look very close to opening. The menu board went up last week, and the signs were put up over the weekend.

It's nice to see some investment with this and Raising Cane's coming to 23rd west of the Uptown area (although Cane's will technically be inside the Uptown district).

This raises a question I've been thinking since the existing buildings were torn down to make way for this project: Since this project will be in an Urban Conservation District (Gatewood) and an Urban Design Overlay District, how will this affect the overall appearance and site planning for this project? The Raising Cane’s restaurants I am familiar with are developed in a manner that is very auto-centric (surrounded by parking, drive-thru, etc). I would imagine this type of site plan would be not conducive to the aims of urban district zoning.
I realize there is a precedent on the other 3 corners of the intersection, but still.

I'm really not excited about the Cane's. I really wish someone would have done something with the existing buildings. Next thing to go will be Terry's Two Way on 23rd and May. :(

I'm really not excited about the Cane's. I really wish someone would have done something with the existing buildings. Next thing to go will be Terry's Two Way on 23rd and May. :(

I'm surprised it's not already gone.

This news is depressing to me. The neighborhood already has one chicken strip joint, now we will have two. Wow. Looking at the menu, there is literally nothing that I could safely eat, being a diabetic, so it will be one more place in the neighborhood not to spend money.

The on-going NW expressification of NW 23rd west of Classen seems unstoppable. Fortunately we have the Plaza district to remind us that we are in an urban area, not a suburb.

This news is depressing to me. The neighborhood already has one chicken strip joint, now we will have two. Wow. Looking at the menu, there is literally nothing that I could safely eat, being a diabetic, so it will be one more place in the neighborhood not to spend money.

The on-going NW expressification of NW 23rd west of Classen seems unstoppable. Fortunately we have the Plaza district to remind us that we are in an urban area, not a suburb.

I think that problem started a long time ago, would be tough to correct it without removing the massive strip mall across the street.