Much needed, but bummer to lose the trees. They’re something OKC could use a lot more of.

There are definitely parts of the city that could use more trees, especially more mature ones, but the neighborhoods in this area have some of the best variety of older trees in the city.

But it does seem, especially in commercial or civic projects, whenever an area gets "reimagined" or redeveloped, the current inventory of trees are a casualty, and newer trees are brought in, which just resets the area to younger, less mature trees, again.

23rd St can either be a pedestrian friendly commercial corridor or it can be a wide speedy throughway for drivers. It cannot be both.

https://www.koco.com/article/okc-district-improved-sidewalks-lighting/61101560?utm_campaign=snd-autopilot&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1L17xJ6iwRNNAE2drpKmklM 7XFdcJnP-iKMtWMxoDJLdfqwY0QLUzlSFQ_aem_ZmFrZWR1bW15MTZieXRl cw

23rd St can either be a pedestrian friendly commercial corridor or it can be a wide speedy throughway for drivers. It cannot be both.

I would hardly consider it a speedy throughway right now. It’s really the only major road that runs uninterrupted from one end of the inner core to the other. It doesn’t have to be fast, it just needs to be wide enough to handle the volume. It sounds like it will remain 4 lanes so it should be fine.

From the two renderings in the KOCO piece, it looks like they're taking out the median and, possibly, paralleled parking in order to make the sidewalks bigger and it will stay a four lane road.

Doesn't look like any dedicated bike lanes, but I guess the removal of parallel parking helps cyclists.

Seems like I remember something about bike facilities being placed on 22nd and 24th streets, which would be safer and more comfortable anyway

Seems like I remember something about bike facilities being placed on 22nd and 24th streets, which would be safer and more comfortable anyway

Yeah, I remember that being the case too. I would prefer that, mostly from the perspective of the cyclist and them being safer.

Jesus hopefully not. Im usually all for reducing lanes but absolutely not on 23rd. Way too much traffic for that.

The traffic levels are only half the maximum before FHWA recommends against road diets.

From FHWA: A Road Diet can be a low-cost safety solution when planned in conjunction with a simple pavement overlay, and the reconfiguration can be accomplished at no additional cost. Typically, a Road Diet is implemented on a roadway with a current and future average daily traffic of 25,000 or less. Sourcehttp://https://highways.dot.gov/safety/proven-safety-countermeasures/road-diets-roadway-reconfiguration

18927

Im sorry if your drive through my neighborhood is 30-60 seconds longer but I'd like to be able to walk safely to and from the shops and not have to play frogger.

Yeah, I remember that being the case too. I would prefer that, mostly from the perspective of the cyclist and them being safer.

Agree. I'm not sure there's anything they could do to 23rd street that would make me want to ride my bike on it. lol

Im sorry if your drive through my neighborhood is 30-60 seconds longer but I'd like to be able to walk safely to and from the shops and not have to play frogger.

23rd is NOT a neighborhood street .. it is a URBAN PRINCIPAL ARTERIAL ....

Urban Principal Arterial Street System
In every urban environment there exists a system of streets and highways which can be identified as unusually significant to its surrounding area in terms of the nature and composition of travel it serves. These facilities in smaller urban areas (less than 50,000) may be limited in number and extent. The importance may be primarily derived from the service provided to travel passing through the area. Larger urban areas may have the importance of service from rural oriented traffic, but equally or more important from service of major travel within urbanized areas. The following are the main characteristics for streets and highways of the urban principal arterial system.

Serves the major traffic movements within urbanized areas connecting central business districts, outlying residential areas, major intercity communities, and major suburban centers.
Serves a major portion of the trips entering and leaving the urban area, as well as the majority of the through traffic desiring to bypass the central city.
Provides continuity for all rural arterials which intercept the urban area.

as well as a SNOW route

I would hardly consider it a speedy throughway right now. It’s really the only major road that runs uninterrupted from one end of the inner core to the other. It doesn’t have to be fast, it just needs to be wide enough to handle the volume. It sounds like it will remain 4 lanes so it should be fine.

As does Reno, 10th, 36th, S 29th. Several uninterrupted roads from Yukon to Choctaw

As does Reno, 10th, 36th, S 29th. Several uninterrupted roads from Yukon to Choctaw

10th does not ..

23rd is NOT a neighborhood street .. it is a URBAN PRINCIPAL ARTERIAL ....

Urban Principal Arterial Street System
In every urban environment there exists a system of streets and highways which can be identified as unusually significant to its surrounding area in terms of the nature and composition of travel it serves. These facilities in smaller urban areas (less than 50,000) may be limited in number and extent. The importance may be primarily derived from the service provided to travel passing through the area. Larger urban areas may have the importance of service from rural oriented traffic, but equally or more important from service of major travel within urbanized areas. The following are the main characteristics for streets and highways of the urban principal arterial system.

Serves the major traffic movements within urbanized areas connecting central business districts, outlying residential areas, major intercity communities, and major suburban centers.
Serves a major portion of the trips entering and leaving the urban area, as well as the majority of the through traffic desiring to bypass the central city.
Provides continuity for all rural arterials which intercept the urban area.

as well as a SNOW route

Those functional classifications doesn't mean its required to be 4 lanes or any sort of configuration. And no one claimed it be a neighborhood street, but it is a road that bisects the neighborhood. And I think snowplows can still go down 2 lane roads...

The traffic levels are only half the maximum before FHWA recommends against road diets.

From FHWA: A Road Diet can be a low-cost safety solution when planned in conjunction with a simple pavement overlay, and the reconfiguration can be accomplished at no additional cost. Typically, a Road Diet is implemented on a roadway with a current and future average daily traffic of 25,000 or less. Sourcehttp://https://highways.dot.gov/safety/proven-safety-countermeasures/road-diets-roadway-reconfiguration

18927

Im sorry if your drive through my neighborhood is 30-60 seconds longer but I'd like to be able to walk safely to and from the shops and not have to play frogger.
what the F are you talking about? It’s a commercial street. Also I Iived in Mesta Park for nearly a decade and still live in “your neighborhood” if it includes 23rd st.

And you don’t have to play frogger if you don’t jay walk…plenty of cross walks that have always worked just fine for me when I’ve needed to cross 23rd to get to shops or restaurants on the other side.

But at any rate, your whole rant is pointless. They aren’t narrowing the street to two lanes probably due to how stupid of an idea that would be for 23rd.

Those functional classifications doesn't mean its required to be 4 lanes or any sort of configuration. And no one claimed it be a neighborhood street, but it is a road that bisects the neighborhood. And I think snowplows can still go down 2 lane roads...

it is going to be 4 lanes after they redo it anyway so the point is moot.

As does Reno, 10th, 36th, S 29th. Several uninterrupted roads from Yukon to Choctaw

I really meant the northern part of the inner core. 36th isn’t really a major road. It narrows to two lanes and is essentially a neighborhood street from Classen to May. 23rd is the only street on the north side of the core that is 4 lanes from I-35 to I-44.

what the F are you talking about? It’s a commercial street. Also I Iived in Mesta Park for nearly a decade and still live in “your neighborhood” if it includes 23rd st.

And you don’t have to play frogger if you don’t jay walk…plenty of cross walks that have always worked just fine for me when I’ve needed to cross 23rd to get to shops or restaurants on the other side.

But at any rate, your whole rant is pointless. They aren’t narrowing the street to two lanes probably due to how stupid of an idea that would be for 23rd.

Im sorry the thought of reduced traffic, noise, pollution, and safer conditions for children and the elderly is detrimental to your emotional health. In conversing with the project engineer he had wanted to do a 2-way with turn lane but it was too “stupid” as you say for many of the business owners on 23rd.

Oklahoma is always behind the times in the best urbanism practices and this is no different. Maybe the 2050 rebuild will finally be done right.

Im sorry the thought of reduced traffic, noise, pollution, and safer conditions for children and the elderly is detrimental to your emotional health. In conversing with the project engineer he had wanted to do a 2-way with turn lane but it was too “stupid” as you say for many of the business owners on 23rd.

Oklahoma is always behind the times in the best urbanism practices and this is no different. Maybe the 2050 rebuild will finally be done right.

Reducing 13th street to 2 lanes was a good idea. Reducing 10th st to 2 lanes in midtown was a good idea. Reducing Classen from 6 lanes to 4 may have been a good idea but time will tell. Reducing all the roads downtown to two lanes via project 180 was a good idea. Blindly applying “urbanism practices” to literally every part of the city is stupid. You can say it as many ways as you would like but reducing 23rd to 2 lanes would be stupid. Clearly the city agreed that it was a stupid idea. If you wanted that kind of urban corridor in your neighborhood, you could’ve chosen the Paseo, Plaza, midtown, western or any number of areas that aren’t as heavily trafficked.

Using Tulsa as an example, 23rd is almost like a slightly more spread out Brookside. Brookside is pretty pedestrian friendly and it is set up like 23rd will be after they finish with it (4 lanes with no median, wider sidewalks and several well defined crossing areas. The city is doing this the right way despite whatever weird urbanism extremist ax you have to grind.

Im sorry the thought of reduced traffic, noise, pollution, and safer conditions for children and the elderly is detrimental to your emotional health. In conversing with the project engineer he had wanted to do a 2-way with turn lane but it was too “stupid” as you say for many of the business owners on 23rd.

Oklahoma is always behind the times in the best urbanism practices and this is no different. Maybe the 2050 rebuild will finally be done right.

Yeah, if there were an ideal stretch in all the city for a road diet, it’d be this. I’m okay with incremental progress so even if this revision isn’t the greatest, I find it encouraging that there’s at least an emphasis on improving the sidewalks.

In the PNW, there’s streets much less “urban” or walkable that don’t even have a turn lane (i.e. Alberta St and Mississippi Ave in Portland) but drivers figure it out and as a result are much more mindful of those who aren’t driving, if by no other reason than they have time to react. You still get people that act like it’s a burden to drive slower than 35 mph, but people adapt fairly easily and it’s not as dire or detrimental to one’s sanity as some are afraid it is.

remember guys, can't have any dissenting opinion here on OKCTalk. Must align with certain folks' view or else your 'rant' is not welcome.

Im sorry the thought of reduced traffic, noise, pollution, and safer conditions for children and the elderly is detrimental to your emotional health. In conversing with the project engineer he had wanted to do a 2-way with turn lane but it was too “stupid” as you say for many of the business owners on 23rd.

Oklahoma is always behind the times in the best urbanism practices and this is no different. Maybe the 2050 rebuild will finally be done right.

*2500

remember guys, can't have any dissenting opinion here on OKCTalk. Must align with certain folks' view or else your 'rant' is not welcome.

Your rants are not FAA approved.

remember guys, can't have any dissenting opinion here on OKCTalk. Must align with certain folks' view or else your 'rant' is not welcome.

I feel bad for enjoying the rants too much. Haha!

Using Tulsa as an example, 23rd is almost like a slightly more spread out Brookside. Brookside is pretty pedestrian friendly and it is set up like 23rd will be after they finish with it (4 lanes with no median, wider sidewalks and several well defined crossing areas. The city is doing this the right way despite whatever weird urbanism extremist ax you have to grind.

Brookside in Tulsa is a great example of a street that tries and fails to be pleasant for both cars and pedestrians at the same time. I don't particuarly enjoy driving or walking down streets littered with unsignalized crossings and frequent curb cuts. "Weird urbanism extremist ax" is inflammatory in the face of modest suggestions. No one is trying to ban cars on 23rd st, no one is trying to reduce cross-streets, no one is taking away parking. I would suggest widening your reference to outside of OK, where we are not exactly known for our pedestrian-friendly street design and vibrant urban shopping districts . Better things are in fact possible here!

Brookside in Tulsa is a great example of a street that tries and fails to be pleasant for both cars and pedestrians at the same time. I don't particuarly enjoy driving or walking down streets littered with unsignalized crossings and frequent curb cuts. "Weird urbanism extremist ax" is inflammatory in the face of modest suggestions. No one is trying to ban cars on 23rd st, no one is trying to reduce cross-streets, no one is taking away parking. I would suggest widening your reference to outside of OK, where we are not exactly known for our pedestrian-friendly street design and vibrant urban shopping districts . Better things are in fact possible here!

You act like I didn’t just reference like 4-5 other examples of where I thought lane reductions were a good idea in the paragraph prior to the one you quoted...that is what I mean by urbanism extremist…we should just reduce every single road in the city to two lanes, right?

I don’t have to expand my reference to outside of ok…plenty of districts have done it well in OKC alone…just on much less busy streets. Just fully disagree with any solution reducing 23rd to two lanes which is not a modest suggestion to anyone who uses it daily. There are no other four lane roads running all the way across the north part of the urban core. I don’t think it should be 2 lanes just like I don’t think 16th should be 4 lanes. Disagree with your feelings about Brookside but you could get away with narrowing it with both riverside and Lewis running north to south fairly nearby though I doubt they ever do it.

Though again, the point is moot because they aren’t doing reducing it to 2 lanes and are highly unlikely to do so in the future.

I have an interest in a business on 23rd, so I do have a dog in this fight. However we didn't buy the business until last summer, when the train had already left the station on this design, or I personally would have tried to exert any influence I had to get them to consider a four-to-three lane reduction. This configuration has been proven to actually reduce transit time rather than slow it down. The problem 23rd has and will CONTINUE to have in this config is left turns backing up traffic and the way people respond to this (darting from lane to lane at speed).

This is counterintuitive to many, but removing the left turners from the travel lanes allows the balance of road users to maintain a consistent speed, if slower, and invariably results in a shorter average transit time through the area in question. Safer and easier for those in cars, safer for bicycles and pedestrians, plus the added benefit of additional sidewalk space and/or dedicated bike lanes. It is a win/win/win, INCLUDING for automobile traffic.

You can read about this type of lane reduction here (https://www.dot.state.mn.us/trafficeng/safety/road-diet-summary.html).

Here's a really good video that explains the benefit of a four-to-three lane reduction (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naCbw7lwcVw). Including improved travel times for automobiles and emergency response vehicles. Also reduces vehicular crashes by up to 47%.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naCbw7lwcVw

Your rants are not FAA approved.

haha, that's a good one. (really im laughing).

Yes, I need my FAA approval. hehe. :)

haha, that's a good one. (really im laughing).

Yes, i need my faa approval. Hehe. :)

lol

Yes, I need my FAA approval. hehe. :)

Don't worry, I'm sure you'll get it. You deserve it. ;)

hehe. lol

Here's a really good video that explains the benefit of a four-to-three lane reduction (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naCbw7lwcVw). Including improved travel times for automobiles and emergency response vehicles. Also reduces vehicular crashes by up to 47%.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naCbw7lwcVw

Watched the video. I do not think small town Iowa roads and their ability to reduce accidents that happen to 18 wheelers hauling corn are an accurate reflection of traffic on a road that runs in front of the Oklahoma State Capitol. The proposed road diet area appears to be about 1/2 mile in the Uptown District. Nobody is suggesting that 23rd be reduced either east of Broadway or west of Western. Living in The Village, I am very familiar with the 3 lane portion of Pennsylvania that runs south of Britton Road to the Nichols Hills city limits at Westminster. People turn left from the (right) traffic lane on a regular basis.

Walgreens on 23rd & Classen had a sheet of plywood covering one of their entry doors yesterday

Walgreens on 23rd & Classen had a sheet of plywood covering one of their entry doors yesterday

Oh my. The CVS at that intersection just closed as well. Maybe it was just broken glass?

If not, all 4 corners of that key intersection would be vacant.

No it's still open

There was also a sign saying temporary pharmacy hours, closing at 5pm. Also a 'now hiring' a pharmacist on the front window.

Perhaps a pharmacy break in, dunno just speculation

^

Thanks. Their website says their pharmacy is temporarily closed.

Walgreens on 23rd & Classen had a sheet of plywood covering one of their entry doors yesterday

It has been there for at least 10ish days.

It has been there for at least 10ish days.

I think I was in the store on July 5 and it was up then.

There's a great local pharmacy on NW 11th, Midtown Drug. I changed from that Walgreens to Midtown Drug recently in an effort to support local businesses.

Juicy Tails opened in Penn 23rd shopping plaza. Next to Walmart Neighborhood Grocery.
Looks like they’re out of Rogers AR.
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There's a great local pharmacy on NW 11th, Midtown Drug. I changed from that Walgreens to Midtown Drug recently in an effort to support local businesses.

We did this too and sadly had to switch back, won't go in to a lot of details but yeeesh, it was a bummer.

I noticed a "store closing" sign in front of the Family Dollar.

I noticed a "store closing" sign in front of the Family Dollar.

Are you sure they're not going out "for" business?

Driving down 23rd, that tight fitting space since they put in that median, has always been dicey with the parking there too. In college (early 2000s), i had a big Ford truck with those metal arm mirrors. Got a bit too close one time and hit another big truck's mirrors and it slammed mine in against the door. Luckily, it didn't do any damage on my car (good old thick 80's truck metal) but it's just an example of how there just really isn't enough room today. I've seen so many people do the same thing with a less positive outcome. Trucks used to try to get in and out of that hotel/motel liquidation store, the Tower sign was repeatedly mutilated until they blocked that section of the parking off.

It might be tight in terms of congestion after this, but in terms of it being safer......absolutely!!!!!! As long as they work out a way to make those turn lanes at the lights accommodate the traffic flow. Hopefully that middle turn lane helps to also keep things moving so left turners dont hold the line up. It can get backed up in no time with a lefty turn line backed up and a person waiting to parallel park...and everyone else with no where to go.

It's just at tight squeeze area.

Driving down 23rd, that tight fitting space since they put in that median, has always been dicey with the parking there too. In college (early 2000s), i had a big Ford truck with those metal arm mirrors. Got a bit too close one time and hit another big truck's mirrors and it slammed mine in against the door. Luckily, it didn't do any damage on my car (good old thick 80's truck metal) but it's just an example of how there just really isn't enough room today. I've seen so many people do the same thing with a less positive outcome. Trucks used to try to get in and out of that hotel/motel liquidation store, the Tower sign was repeatedly mutilated until they blocked that section of the parking off.

It might be tight in terms of congestion after this, but in terms of it being safer......absolutely!!!!!! As long as they work out a way to make those turn lanes at the lights accommodate the traffic flow. Hopefully that middle turn lane helps to also keep things moving so left turners dont hold the line up. It can get backed up in no time with a lefty turn line backed up and a person waiting to parallel park...and everyone else with no where to go.

It's just at tight squeeze area.

I don't think there will be a "middle turn lane" if I understood the aforementioned discussion correctly.

Also, lmao at a giant truck driver frustrated that their oversized truck isn't compatible with road design. No sympathy there, my friend. ;)

^^^^^^^^^^
There’s not, and I think that’s a huge mistake. The biggest snarls (and accidents) on 23rd are related to people being stopped to turn left, and other people suddenly changing lanes and/or speeding in order to not get stuck behind them. The new plan doesn’t fix this in any way, though it does provide better pedestrian facilities. As I’ve said more than once here, a four-to-three lane reduction with a dedicated center turn lane has been clearly proven to reduce transit time while ALSO reducing average speeds. Because it eliminates being slowed/stopped by left-turning vehicles. Some people have a difficult time wrapping their heads around this concept, unfortunately.

^^^^^^^^^^
There’s not, and I think that’s a huge mistake. The biggest snarls (and accidents) on 23rd are related to people being stopped to turn left, and other people suddenly changing lanes and/or speeding in order to not get stuck behind them. The new plan doesn’t fix this in any way, though it does provide better pedestrian facilities. As I’ve said more than once here, a four-to-three lane reduction with a dedicated center turn lane has been clearly proven to reduce transit time while ALSO reducing average speeds. Because it eliminates being slowed/stopped by left-turning vehicles. Some people have a difficult time wrapping their heads around this concept, unfortunately.

I may have missed it, but have any preliminary design plans been shared yet showing what layout was settled on? The lack of dedicated turn lane is indeed disappointing. I've completely given up on every trying to turn left onto Walker from eastbound 23rd.

Also, lmao at a giant truck driver frustrated that their oversized truck isn't compatible with road design. No sympathy there, my friend. ;)

The concept of two oversized trucks hitting mirrors in the city and then blaming it on the road is hilarious.

I dont think you guys are really understanding the situation. This was the early 2000's. We're not talking todays prolific massive F250's everywhere. All this took was one normal sized Ford truck parked on the side of 23rd so much that I could see his tires touching the curb (he couldn't have moved any more to the side than he was) and another normal sized ford truck simply passing each other. If you look, a lot of vehicles pull their mirrors in on 23rd in this area for this reason. I bet he started doing that too. Not so practical to do if you're the one driving down the road. Also, nor should I. If the road is sized to proper standards, then there is room. It only became a problem when the median was thrown in there without giving either size the compensatory space back. That's also why there's no concrete next to the curb there. In order to get the space for the cars to drive, they had to asphalt right up to the curb....and require people drive right up to the curb. Next time you drive that section near Tower, check out the tire marks on the concrete curbs.

In no way were we oversized folks. Neither vehicle. But thanks for being so wonderful about it. This was a small anecdote to discuss the problems that the city created that dont exist on any other stretch of 23rd. Now, 30 years later, they're going to do something about it, and I'm glad.

And if i still have a large SUV, I shouldn't have to worry about if it's going to fit driving down a city street. If you're statement was taken as the opinion of the city, then we have a problem. The roads are not designed for my SUV or even those duley 2500 Chevys. They are made to be able to accommodate semi trucks/box trucks/etc. And if you've ever watched one try to drive there, well it was probably a unique experience because they mostly avoid this section for all the reasons I mentioned. Unless they have a delivery in that exact section, they take alternate routes because it's no unfriendly to them.

But yeah, my f150 sized vehicle was the problem here....good job for pointing that out. I dont know what i would have done without that wonderful retort.

I dont think you guys are really understanding the situation. This was the early 2000's. We're not talking todays prolific massive F250's everywhere. All this took was one normal sized Ford truck parked on the side of 23rd so much that I could see his tires touching the curb (he couldn't have moved any more to the side than he was) and another normal sized ford truck simply passing each other. If you look, a lot of vehicles pull their mirrors in on 23rd in this area for this reason. I bet he started doing that too. Not so practical to do if you're the one driving down the road. Also, nor should I. If the road is sized to proper standards, then there is room. It only became a problem when the median was thrown in there without giving either size the compensatory space back. That's also why there's no concrete next to the curb there. In order to get the space for the cars to drive, they had to asphalt right up to the curb....and require people drive right up to the curb. Next time you drive that section near Tower, check out the tire marks on the concrete curbs.

In no way were we oversized folks. Neither vehicle. But thanks for being so wonderful about it. This was a small anecdote to discuss the problems that the city created that dont exist on any other stretch of 23rd. Now, 30 years later, they're going to do something about it, and I'm glad.

And if i still have a large SUV, I shouldn't have to worry about if it's going to fit driving down a city street. If you're statement was taken as the opinion of the city, then we have a problem. The roads are not designed for my SUV or even those duley 2500 Chevys. They are made to be able to accommodate semi trucks/box trucks/etc. And if you've ever watched one try to drive there, well it was probably a unique experience because they mostly avoid this section for all the reasons I mentioned. Unless they have a delivery in that exact section, they take alternate routes because it's no unfriendly to them.

But yeah, my f150 sized vehicle was the problem here....good job for pointing that out. I dont know what i would have done without that wonderful retort.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding where on 23rd this happened to you. I don't know about the "asphalt running up against the curb." Maybe it was a different road back in the 2000s. I'm imagining we are talking about NW 23rd near Walker since that seems to be where the construction changes will take place. And yes, my axe to grind is generally with the supersized F-250 with the lift with the towing mirrors. I completely understand why those trucks are a necessity for farmers and for people who drag boats to the lake. But I sincerely don't think 80% of them are used for those purposes and complaints about road accessibility from those who want the City to adapt to their purchases fall on very deaf ears, from me. I've got a dear friend who drives a 2023 Ford F250 King Ranch Super Duty (or whatever its called) and he complains that going downtown is a hassle to get around and that "no one builds parking lots the right way." He's a close buddy, and I am quick to tell him he needs a mirror for some self-reflection.

19055

I dont think you guys are really understanding the situation. This was the early 2000's. We're not talking todays prolific massive F250's everywhere. All this took was one normal sized Ford truck parked on the side of 23rd so much that I could see his tires touching the curb (he couldn't have moved any more to the side than he was) and another normal sized ford truck simply passing each other. If you look, a lot of vehicles pull their mirrors in on 23rd in this area for this reason. I bet he started doing that too. Not so practical to do if you're the one driving down the road. Also, nor should I. If the road is sized to proper standards, then there is room. It only became a problem when the median was thrown in there without giving either size the compensatory space back. That's also why there's no concrete next to the curb there. In order to get the space for the cars to drive, they had to asphalt right up to the curb....and require people drive right up to the curb. Next time you drive that section near Tower, check out the tire marks on the concrete curbs.

In no way were we oversized folks. Neither vehicle. But thanks for being so wonderful about it. This was a small anecdote to discuss the problems that the city created that dont exist on any other stretch of 23rd. Now, 30 years later, they're going to do something about it, and I'm glad.

And if i still have a large SUV, I shouldn't have to worry about if it's going to fit driving down a city street. If you're statement was taken as the opinion of the city, then we have a problem. The roads are not designed for my SUV or even those duley 2500 Chevys. They are made to be able to accommodate semi trucks/box trucks/etc. And if you've ever watched one try to drive there, well it was probably a unique experience because they mostly avoid this section for all the reasons I mentioned. Unless they have a delivery in that exact section, they take alternate routes because it's no unfriendly to them.

But yeah, my f150 sized vehicle was the problem here....good job for pointing that out. I dont know what i would have done without that wonderful retort.

Yes, it is crazy to think people don't understand that city streets should be able to accommodate a semi-truck and its turn radius. My brother drives a Semi for Fedex and talks about the horrors of streets like this not having a center lane. Even the way a curb is cut should be taken into consideration when we are talking about a major street.

The median is cut pretty far back, but it is still a problem for most large vehicles to make this turn. It has been repaired a few times in the past and still we see it getting beat up.
19056

Yes, it is crazy to think people don't understand that city streets should be able to accommodate a semi-truck and its turn radius. My brother drives a Semi for Fedex and talks about the horrors of streets like this not having a center lane. Even the way a curb is cut should be taken into consideration when we are talking about a major street.

The median is cut pretty far back, but it is still a problem for most large vehicles to make this turn. It has been repaired a few times in the past and still we see it getting beat up.
19056

Those same changes to accommodate semis also allow for people to speed and take turns at faster speeds which makes the street unsafe for all.

City streets should not be designed for semi-trucks. Box trucks and vans exist for a reason. Many of the streets around the area are supposedly only for vehicles for 3 axles or less.

Those same changes to accommodate semis also allow for people to speed and take turns at faster speeds which makes the street unsafe for all.

City streets should not be designed for semi-trucks. Box trucks and vans exist for a reason. Many of the streets around the area are supposedly only for vehicles for 3 axles or less.

When I worked in transportation, this is exactly why we had distribution centers in an industrial area with interstate access - so our semis could easily go between distribution centers and relays or intermodal. Semis were not user for customer delivery except in industrial areas and an FTL delivery. LTL deliveries were always transferred to single pups (short trailers) or box trucks. "Final mile" delivery was actually an entirely different department from "Transportation".

Having medians like this also provides for landscaping and trees, which can reduce the urban heat island effect. I’d much rather see some kind of facility built at certain points off of freeways or roads that are built to accommodate semis Where the cargo can be transferred to box trucks.

Those same changes to accommodate semis also allow for people to speed and take turns at faster speeds which makes the street unsafe for all.

City streets should not be designed for semi-trucks. Box trucks and vans exist for a reason. Many of the streets around the area are supposedly only for vehicles for 3 axles or less.

*LESS* than 3 axles. Normal residential streets have signs up that used to say "TRUCKS IN EXCESS OF 2 AXLES PROHIBITED", but the newer signs substitute VEHICLES instead of TRUCKS. Almost every residential street has these signs at the entrance to them from any main street (23rd, 36th, whatever), and at tons of internal residential intersections.

*LESS* than 3 axles. Normal residential streets have signs up that used to say "TRUCKS IN EXCESS OF 2 AXLES PROHIBITED", but the newer signs substitute VEHICLES instead of TRUCKS. Almost every residential street has these signs at the entrance to them from any main street (23rd, 36th, whatever), and at tons of internal residential intersections.

This was one of my gripes to the city. These huge trucks and garbage trucks are responsible for a lot of the wear and tear on the roads. On Walker there are semis delivering to paseo businesses all the time. They've taken out some tree branches in the last week lol.

But why should the semi truck not be able to travel on a main artery road to access the businesses they are delivering to? Why should 23rd not be accessible to them and cause the turns to be problematic and thus damaging to the road?

Again, i wasn't a King Ranch, i was what USED to be a normal 2 door truck, hitting a normal 2 door truck. And I still had problems or sort of white knuckled my way through there (especially the west bound lane near the Tower) hoping it didn't happen again. But why should I have to do that just so someone can put trees int he middle of a road that was never designed to be able to hold trees in a median that the road doesn't have space for? It's pretty unique in OKC that they did that and it wasn't a good thing honestly.

If i'm Sysco or someone, i'm going to drive the shorter what 43' semis to deliver food to restaurants because that's the most economical way to deliver pallets of items around the city. If I'm going to be forced to change to box trucks, then my costs go up because i need more vehicles and more drivers, more lifts, etc. Guess what that means, those prices at your restaurants are going to go up to pay for the price increases I've passed on to my customer because of their municipal rules. So that will impact you directly and potentially can be damaging to the business. The Paseo is really the only area that has that direct issue for 23rd because honestly the trucks have the option to take alternate routes pretty much everywhere else there. But my point is that they shouldn't have to. I've always been a proponent of there being a bit more of a diesel tax to make up for the cost that the larger vehicles cause to the roads. In the macro scale, we come out saving there even if we spend a little more because of the handed down expense increase. Right now, we're paying out of our pocket to subsidize them and their damage. The larger economy of scale of diesel drivers basically paying a use-tax, helps spread the expense out to cover their damage. OKC would potentially be able to benefit from that as well for road repairs.

I agree with the statement about the King Ranch people complaining can hush. But if it fits a semi, then that King Ranch will fit too and if they still say it doesn't, then they don't know how to drive well enough anyway.

I dont think we're probably going to agree on this, and that's fine. It's not like we're making the policy for the city here anyway. My main point is that the city didn't think very well when they made changes here 30 years ago and focused only on one aspect of it in their attempt to beautify a struggling area (remember what it was like in 2000, not what it is today). IMO, they picked the wrong focus and ignore many other options that they had available to them to accomplish the same thing.

duplicate

I understand the gripe for Semi's in The Plaza or The Paseo, but Uptown 23rd is on a main street. They cannot restrict semi-access to that street. Also, a sign doesn't keep trucks or any other type of vehicle from entering a location. They are suggestions to most drivers. They know a cop isn't just sitting there waiting for them to screw up and use those roads.

i dont think the issue is necessarily that semis are traveling along 23rd; it is that they are turning. 23rd is the few areas of the city outside of downtown that has incredible density and therefore isn't being built around the vehicle. Companies will need to adopt to this by, as was mentioned - switching to smaller vehicles for deliveries/stocking just like the do in other urban areas.