Maybe the new agent will at least be able to set the owner's expectations a little closer to reality.

About a dozen bright yellow bike racks have been installed on NW 23rd this past week, a welcomed addition to Uptown. Now if 23rd was made more bike friendly...

I love this mid-century photo of 23rd St that the Tower Theater posted today on their instagram, especially the Veazey Drug building on the corner.

Anyone with some spare change want to buy that highlighter-eyesore Truong Thon Supermarket on the corner of 23rd and Walker and rebuild a replica facade of this location's old life? Throw in room for retail, some restaurant space...

11090

Several people have tried to buy that property but the owner has not been willing to sell.

Several people have tried to buy that property but the owner has not been willing to sell.

They recently put a going out of business sign up...however Hotel Motel Liquidation had one up there for 2 years so it probably doesn't mean anything.

Any word on the old Ce Ce's wigs space?

They recently put a going out of business sign up...

These pop up in places often enough, I wonder if some folk don't know that 'of' is not just another way of writing 'for'

Yeah, the Hotel Motel liquidation used to say going out FOR business.

Pete, any idea what restaurant tenant is interested in this space? If this is actually happening that would be another big step for 23rd.

Steve Lackmeyer: Troung-Tranh Supermarket to be redeveloped | News OK (http://newsok.com/steve-lackmeyer-troung-tranh-supermarket-to-be-redeveloped/article/5435852)

No, nobody knows at this point.

There was an ABC permit for the two spaces directly west of the Tower that showed the new parking lot and a new back patio.

Brianna's update on the Milk Bottle building along with a video interview with Elise Kilpatrick, who is opening Prairie Gothic in the building.

BOTTLED CHARM: Prairie Gothic moves into milk bottle building in OKC | NewsOK.com (http://m.newsok.com/new-tenant-moves-into-milk-bottle-building-in-okc/article/5437007)

With the continued development of 23rd (and now the opening of Guyutes), is there any word on plans to improve the walkability of the street? With so many new additions, I feel this is going to need a major overhaul - wider sidewalks, more opportunities for safe walking north/south (it's frightening to cross the street at a non-controlled intersection).

Yeah, intersections are definitely going to need enhancement…probably more stop lights and everything.

Btw…once the Gold Dome gets fixed up into hopefully something that people can interact with, from Classen to 235 there will be activity at all times of the day on this street. It's still got a long way to go, but the Tower theater is going to really help change things and just sheer numbers are going to push people to walk all the way to Shartel.

Find a way to make the Gold Dome into something special and Uptown will be a pretty remarkable street.

There is plenty more in the works, too.

Lots of deals kicking around for the various unused or underused buildings and lots.

That whole stretch will really start to fill in in the next couple of years.

There is plenty more in the works, too.

Lots of deals kicking around for the various unused or underused buildings and lots.

That whole stretch will really start to fill in in the next couple of years.

Which makes the need for better sidewalks and street design even more important (parking will need to come into play soon as well). Any update on potential plans by the city to improve 23rd's walkability? It's not just inconvenient at times - it's dangerous.

Danger is clear and present at 24th and Walker as well. Holding my breath hoping no one is killed or injured crossing Walker from The Pump or Gusto with the inadequate lighting/crossing features there. The Drake opening will seriously increase that risk.

^^^^^^^
Yeah I've been greatly concerned about that since Gusto and The Pump opened. The cars traveling up and down Walker seem absolutely oblivious to the recent addition of TONS of pedestrians in this area.

I think the best approach there would be a four-way stop (promoted by Jeff Speck in Walkable City as the best solution in places of heavy auto/pedestrian interaction). I've discussed it a bit with Ian (Pump), who thinks a different approach is in order due to the offset of the intersection, but I'm still convinced that 4-way would work best. No matter what, SOMETHING has to be done, and the lighting HAS to be upgraded.

Yeah people just walk from pump across the street without looking or even seeming like they have any responsibility to look. I consider myself careful and always slow down as I approach the pump, but even so have nearly hit folks that just stepped out with no warning when I was quite close to them already (had to slam the brakes). I'm not blaming them for the street situation, but they have at least some amount of responsibility to approach with due caution ("they" includes me if I'm on foot). I guess what I'm saying is, hey let's help each other not kill each other.

I was in Vancouver last week and spent some time downtown at city center. There were lots and lots of people on the streets. I saw virtually no jay-walkers. I was downtown OKC just a little while ago and driving downtown I probably saw close to 20. It is amazing we don't have serious pedestrian/bike/car incidents. Seems like everyone here is in their own little world without regard or respect for the other.

I was in Vancouver last week and spent some time downtown at city center. There were lots and lots of people on the streets. I saw virtually no jay-walkers. I was downtown OKC just a little while ago and driving downtown I probably saw close to 20. It is amazing we don't have serious pedestrian/bike/car incidents. Seems like everyone here is in their own little world without regard or respect for the other.

I suspect that when a city doesn't take pedestrian travel seriously, its citizens won't. And I know OKC is making some small gains. But I would venture to guess that you'd see more jaywalking around 23rd where the design is poor (e.g., crumbling, small sidewalks, few crosswalks...) than in the rebuilt Project 180 areas that are more pedestrian friendly. No?

^

Absolutely right.

23rd desperately needs more places to cross with traffic signals. Until at least that happens, you are going to see lots of jaywalking.

^

Absolutely right.

23rd desperately needs more places to cross with traffic signals. Until at least that happens, you are going to see lots of jaywalking.

This is true. But I was downtown and there were plenty of light protected crosswalks in the area. People were just too lazy to go to the corner and cross. It isn't enough to just complain about the car culture, but it is important to create a proper pedestrian culture too. By the way, the offenders in Vancouver are the bikers. The locals call them the bike nazis. LOL.

^

Absolutely right.

23rd desperately needs more places to cross with traffic signals. Until at least that happens, you are going to see lots of jaywalking.

Interesting tidbit about that. I understand (but could be wrong) that there used to be more stoplights and by extension crosswalks on 23rd in the Uptown area. But in the 80's (90's?) Mesta Park convinced the city to get rid of them under the belief that drivers travelling E-W on 23rd were bypassing through the neighborhood in order to avoid the lights. The knock-on consequence of this action, though, is that 23rd is near impassable to pedestrians attempting to move in a N-S direction. I'm sure this was, if not an explicit goal of the earlier Mesta residents at least an outcome that no one shed a tear over, as it sterngthened the fortress mentality of the earlyurban pioneers and kept "those people" on the Paseo side of 23rd. The overall result was faster and more intense traffic on 23rd and very poor outcomes for pedestrians.

Interestingly enough, Mesta Park is, at this very moment, attempting to re-create this outcome, for the same reasons, by removing stoplights and crosswalks across 13th on the south side of the neighborhood.

This is true. But I was downtown and there were plenty of light protected crosswalks in the area. People were just too lazy to go to the corner and cross. It isn't enough to just complain about the car culture, but it is important to create a proper pedestrian culture too. By the way, the offenders in Vancouver are the bikers. The locals call them the bike nazis. LOL.

I think it is in part laziness, but also has to do with people not knowing any different. The more effort there is to make sidewalks walkable and crosswalks properly marked, etc. it should get better. I see people all the time crossing from the medians on 23rd and especially Classen when there is a crosswalk just a few feet away. It's really dangerous and I'm surprised people haven't been hurt yet.

I suspect that when a city doesn't take pedestrian travel seriously, its citizens won't. And I know OKC is making some small gains. But I would venture to guess that you'd see more jaywalking around 23rd where the design is poor (e.g., crumbling, small sidewalks, few crosswalks...) than in the rebuilt Project 180 areas that are more pedestrian friendly. No?

Good question. The redesign on Broadway 4th St to 10th St was supposed to be ped friendly, but jaywalking there is terrible.

Vancouver? Those Canadians are just too nice, eh. I see jaywalking abound in NYC and San Francisco, although you gotta watch for cyclists more than cars. I think you see jaywalking here because they're just crossing from First National to Renaissance for some snow pea. Mmm, snow pea.

The influence of Mesta continually surprises me. 13th is already a super highway. I say we make it practice to speed through the hood blasting old school gangster rap, windows down, after dark.

I think 23rd will get a street Renaissance when the city sees the revenues and property taxes start to flow. I'm for taking out(I'd prefer both but at least the north side) the street parking>Widening the sidewalk from Harvey & Ollie. Mid-block crosses with paint. And yes my friends...no left turns between Harvey & Shartel. Reduction of the speed to 25 (I think it's 30 now) or even 20 since we all drive 5-10 over anyway. And some yellow crosswalk signage.

But for right now? I'd really just like some paint. That's cheap right? Let's repaint the frickin faded lines and add some new ones. At least it increases awareness. There's a set out from of the pump I have a mind to repaint myself. And like urbanized said, I think the solution is a light at 24th. Like 30th has. The street is so offset no one has a clue who's turn it is, or what direction people are going. It's a left turn nightmare set to the sounds of blaring horns and profanity.

We might just have to get used to the scenario that there's no fast E-W in the core.

We might just have to get used to the scenario that there's no fast E-W in the core.

Right.

And that's it's unreasonable to expect to drive fast through the center of the urban grid.

The influence of Mesta continually surprises me. 13th is already a super highway. I say we make it practice to speed through the hood blasting old school gangster rap, windows down, after dark.


'We spending most our lives living in a hispster's paradise.'

It is quite remarkable to see who will drive how far to go to the Pump. Those folks ain't from around here.

Rover's contributions to this forum never cease to make me chuckle. They seem hostile on the surface, but he's always quick to say he's not REALLY disagreeing with the urbanist perspective here. But it's as if he has to hold his nose to "agree." And yet, there is a noticeable argumentativeness to all of his positions. There is always a less-than-subtle pushback inherent in all of his scolding bromides that indicates he is not aligned with folks here. It is entertaining and somewhat baffling at the same time.

We might just have to get used to the scenario that there's no fast E-W in the core.

Very good point!

If one desires rapid E-W anywhere near the core, it'll have to be I-40 or I-44 (Belle Isle). I'm discovering this through experience. My trips to downtown on 16th, for example, can take either 7 minutes or 15, depending on the stop lights, cars in front of me or city buses making their stops. The same holds true with 23rd. And as far as NW 23rd/Uptown area goes, it's about more than jaywalkers. Yesterday I discovered the treacherous parallel parking in front of the Lillian Strickler lighting store. Had to wait until absolutely nothing was coming before I could safely open my car door to exit. I'm just fortunate that I happened to look in the rearview mirror to see how there was absolutely not leeway or room between my open door and the traffic lane. It's a caution area for sure.

It is quite remarkable to see who will drive how far to go to the Pump. Those folks ain't from around here.

I haven't made it yet (sorry Ian) but add me to that list when I do.

Rover's contributions to this forum never cease to make me chuckle. They seem hostile on the surface, but he's always quick to say he's not REALLY disagreeing with the urbanist perspective here. But it's as if he has to hold his nose to "agree." And yet, there is a noticeable argumentativeness to all of his positions. There is always a less-than-subtle pushback inherent in all of his scolding bromides that indicates he is not aligned with folks here. It is entertaining and somewhat baffling at the same time.

Not sure why you want to make it personal, but okay.

It seems as if some want a singular point of view.

After many, many years of working around projects in urban areas all over the country and the world, I guess I tend to look at things not quite so dogmatically. Anyone can see that 23rd area is a disaster. Not sure it has to be compounded by pedestrians not being smart either. But apparently it isn't cool to be critical of bad behavior if it is of a certain group. It takes no insight to see that this city lacks maturity when trying to deal with the issue of pedestrian rights. Commenting on how the pedestrians need to do their part as well isn't contrary and I wouldn't have thought controversial. BTW, quoting urbanist mantras doesn't make one an urbanist either. DOING urbanist things does.

It is quite remarkable to see who will drive how far to go to the Pump. Those folks ain't from around here.

I wouldn't go as far as to disagree with you. But, you should see the night time foot and bicycle trafic coming down walker to the rise. I for one get pretty excited about it. now if we could just get a continuos sidewalk and a bike lane striped! 11388 oh and these could go away.

I talked to someone at the city today: they said that a plan to re-do the "uptown" section 23rd is being put together. I'm assuming to lump in addition to the plan that's been submitted by mesta's traffic engineers, TEC, that chokes up Shartel even more and essentially creates a ring road interstate around Mesta. HH must have pitched in a few dollars, they want to put a stop sign on every N-S block of walker to stem traffic from midtown to uptown, make Robinson a two way and pull out the stops on Robinson. I guess in this case it's LESS money, mo problems. Wouldn't it be sweet if the street car final plan added a walker avenue line from 13th to 23rd? It probably would make a viable route given the surge :) as far as funding. I didn't ask. It wouldn't be out of the question to siphon off maps 3 money if the neighbors can convince the right people it's about "walkability." No plans for the paseo that I could find out about. Which actually needs sidewalks and ramps like pictured above.

23rd street as pertaining to the actual street, needs to be nuked. Salvage the brick and median trees and repave in concrete. Two vehicle lanes both ways with parallel parking inside a curbed bike lane. While it is happening, might as well lay down streetcar rails. My only fear is hurting business along this corridor during construction. /pipedream

But let's face it, the street is garbage and there is little to no pedestrian or bike friendly routes, which is inexcusable for being in the center of a neighborhood.

Rover's contributions to this forum never cease to make me chuckle. They seem hostile on the surface, but he's always quick to say he's not REALLY disagreeing with the urbanist perspective here. But it's as if he has to hold his nose to "agree." And yet, there is a noticeable argumentativeness to all of his positions. There is always a less-than-subtle pushback inherent in all of his scolding bromides that indicates he is not aligned with folks here. It is entertaining and somewhat baffling at the same time.

+1

I talked to someone at the city today: they said that a plan to re-do the "uptown" section 23rd is being put together. I'm assuming to lump in addition to the plan that's been submitted by mesta's traffic engineers, TEC, that chokes up Shartel even more and essentially creates a ring road interstate around Mesta. HH must have pitched in a few dollars, they want to put a stop sign on every N-S block of walker to stem traffic from midtown to uptown, make Robinson a two way and pull out the stops on Robinson. I guess in this case it's LESS money, mo problems. Wouldn't it be sweet if the street car final plan added a walker avenue line from 13th to 23rd? It probably would make a viable route given the surge :) as far as funding. I didn't ask. It wouldn't be out of the question to siphon off maps 3 money if the neighbors can convince the right people it's about "walkability." No plans for the paseo that I could find out about. Which actually needs sidewalks and ramps like pictured above.

LONG before the route was finalized, our own Sid Burgess was pushing for the streetcar route to go up Walker all the way to 23rd so that it would immediately connect with neighborhoods and give people destinations rather than just being a circulator...

Salvage the brick and median trees and repave in concrete. Two vehicle lanes both ways with parallel parking inside a curbed bike lane.
You just described the street exactly the way it already is. Plus a bike lane that takes space from where? The parking should go away. For extended sidewalks. The tower guys peeled back their fence this week and revealed a widened sidewalk. It looks/feel right. The median. While pretty. Doesn't DO anything. There's your space for a bike lane. May peace be with you if you try to cycle on 23rd.

Don't streetcar lanes see a reduction in stops? Wouldn't that make the traffic even faster?

FYI the "brick" is molded and stained concrete.

The influence of Mesta continually surprises me. 13th is already a super highway. I say we make it practice to speed through the hood blasting old school gangster rap, windows down, after dark.

Yeah please don't endorse that kind of crap... There are plenty of people, if not most, in our neighborhood that support all the development, including yours, going on around us. The vocal minority makes that hard to believe sometimes. Doing something like you suggest would only prove them right and give them more of a voice.

As far as the plan goes, I'm in agreement with all of it with exception to anything that involves removing lights on 13th or 23rd. I think all the additional stop signs they plan to install should do enough to reduce speeds through the area.

You just described the street exactly the way it already is. Plus a bike lane that takes space from where? The parking should go away. For extended sidewalks. The tower guys peeled back their fence this week and revealed a widened sidewalk. It looks/feel right. The median. While pretty. Doesn't DO anything. There's your space for a bike lane. May peace be with you if you try to cycle on 23rd.

Don't streetcar lanes see a reduction in stops? Wouldn't that make the traffic even faster?

FYI the "brick" is molded and stained concrete.

removing on street parking would be a huge mistake. It shields the sidewalk from the street, reduces the pace of vehicular traffic, while also curbing the need for expansive and unsightly surface lots on prime property.

I agree that the street parking is important, but it would make a lot of sense for the curb to bump out at intersections or in front of the Tower, etc., even if that takes a few spaces away.

The median may need to come out.... especially because 23rd should be a transit corridor, as seemingly everyone in this thread has suggested already. :)

Perhaps in this particular case, the bicycles belong on 22nd or 24th for the majority of their east/west journey. I hate for cyclists to be displaced, but they are the most movable element on an already crowded and dangerous thoroughfare. It's got to be much safer.

Movable yes, but they are also the most beneficial ingredient. If you give bikes a prominent space in 23rd's streetscape, it will be a vibrant presence.

It will create sense of place. We have a "challenge," and not a "problem." OKC needs more place and less "fixes" here and there.

Then it's one car lane in each direction if the sidewalks are to be right-sized too. There isn't safe room to open the traffic side door of parked cars as it is. But that'll never happen in my lifetime.

I think one dedicated traffic lane would work, and then the median actually serves a vital function of preventing left-hand turns so that traffic actually would flow smoothly.

I wonder in the future if there is a way we could do a joint streetcar-bicycle lane..

I think Mcdermid was joking about "blasting the hood", or at least I hope.

I counted the street spaces from the aerial view and see 75 between Broadway and Shartel. I don't think would bring ultimate RUIN to the area if your talking about adding bike lanes and widening sidewalks. Honestly it feels like, and I don't know if anyone of us here are traffic engineers, anyone? Bueller? It feels like a single lane of traffic could work with no left turns (you can't make a solid median because you really do have to have cross street traffic...or maybe not? That would be the answer to all mesta's woes.) with street parking, widened sidewalks, AND a bike lane. Then again, if your talking single lane with parallel spaces. It would be disastrous to reverse into a space.

I would be very happy with no median, one lane in each direction, one bicycle lane, and on street parking. I see no great need for the median. The sidewalks aren't wide in some areas but I don't see that as a major concern even if it would be better.

In it's current state it can be harrowing to drive. Traffic must adjust to perceive collision or other threats by veering two or three feet into the adjacent lanes while endeavering maintaining a speed of 30-35 mph (posted at 30) because they want to make the light. It desperately needs help. Sooner rather than later.

I would be very happy with no median, one lane in each direction, one bicycle lane, and on street parking. I see no great need for the median. The sidewalks aren't wide in some areas but I don't see that as a major concern even if it would be better.

Wide plaza-like sidewalks really do help support local retail.

This is just something I realized recently. It's about finding the difference between an okay shopping street like N Broadway and a great shopping street like NW 16.

Just food for thought. As for median.. Bike lanes.. Streetcar.. Wide sidewalks.. On-street parking. Yeah I'd love for NW 23 to have all that and more. We may not be able to get it all, but one thing that helps is knowing the two things we DONT need: 4 lanes of thru-traffic and left-turns into Mesta or J Park.

Wide plaza-like sidewalks really do help support local retail.

This is just something I realized recently. It's about finding the difference between an okay shopping street like N Broadway and a great shopping street like NW 16.

Just food for thought. As for median.. Bike lanes.. Streetcar.. Wide sidewalks.. On-street parking. Yeah I'd love for NW 23 to have all that and more. We may not be able to get it all, but one thing that helps is knowing the two things we DONT need: 4 lanes of thru-traffic and left-turns into Mesta or J Park.

Given how jam packed 23rd is during the week, I have difficulty envisioning it being sufficient for traffic without 4 lanes. If anyone has a realistic solution that doesn't involve a constant traffic jam from 235 to penn during the week, I'm all ears, but as someone who relies on 23rd as a transit corridor daily, I'm very hesitant to endorse narrowing it. I like the idea of adding more lights, crosswalks and wider sidewalks, etc, but regardless of how much everyone wants it to be a great pedestrian corridor, it still needs to be able to handle traffic for people that have to use it everyday.

You need to divorce yourself from the narrow assumption that more lanes = more traffic. That's not actually the case. The same volume of traffic would flow a lot faster through 2 more efficient lanes than 4 less efficient lanes. Traffic flow, not unlike any other flow, is a very simple equation: length x width x friction. Obviously length is static, whereas what we are talking about would be changes to the width or friction, toward which it would be helpful to understand the relationship between width and friction.

Traffic on NW 23rd ranges from 19,000 ADT at Classen to 27,000 ADT at Broadway, according to ACOG's system. Only Classen moves more traffic through the inner north side (about 30,000 ADT). That is certainly a lot of traffic. For the sake of comparison, I think it would be valuable to look at Peoria Avenue in Tulsa. According to INCOG's system, Peoria carries 20,000 to 23,000 ADT between 21st Street and 41st Street, which is basically the full extent of Brookside (basically if you rolled Paseo, Plaza, and Uptown all together and gave it a Tulsa address).

http://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=710c9600be594232870b64f1ed4d11e 7

So basically the same. I think it's worthwhile to note that Peoria is 4-lanes with unlimited left turns anywhere, and I have never once seen backed-up traffic on Peoria. Lucky for them, they have a wider ROW than NW 23, but that still tells me that if they were struggling with the same issue that we are they could exchange one lane of traffic for some traffic management mechanisms. It's actually kind of bizarre that the only function of NW 23's median is to inhibit pedestrians, rather than left-turners (besides looking lovely of course).

So all of that is to get me to a few points that should be relatively obvious:
1) You don't need to support all possible or potential traffic, just the traffic that is there now (which is heavier eastbound than westbound). At a minimum you only need 1 lane for westbound traffic.
2) Traffic queues at Classen/Western and Broadway/235 are the cause of any backed-up traffic, not any perceived shortage of lanes.
3) The congestion at the 235 end is indicative of the difference between 27,000 ADT and 19,000 ADT (traffic volume at the Classen/Western end).
4) While the Classen/Western end performs at a very high Level of Service (congestion being very rare) the Broadway end is probably a B or a C, presently, which any improvements should seek to maintain.

This all builds up to the age-old debate. In urban opportunity areas, in which traffic volumes could be harnessed so that economic activity and street life may flourish, who is deserving of the highest LOS? Bicyclists? Cars? Pedestrians? Transit? It seems you can balance them all out, or you can ensure that cars have that A-rated LOS with no congestion EVER, at the expense of neighborhood-level street life. What do those alternatives look like? How bad would it really be for a major arterial to have a B- or C-rated LOS?

In many states (not named Oklahoma) new roads are expressly designed for a C- or D-rated LOS. It's important to understand that LOS, which civil engineers live and die by, only pertains to traffic movement and not how the street supports its businesses and residents, or how it compliments surrounding neighborhoods. In NY or CA, it is very common for any new road "improvement" to show an F-rated LOS. You can't build yourself out of congestion. In the case of 23rd, we already have the best weapon ever invented in the battle against congestion: the grid system.

You need to divorce yourself from the narrow assumption that more lanes = more traffic. That's not actually the case. The same volume of traffic would flow a lot faster through 2 more efficient lanes than 4 less efficient lanes. Traffic flow, not unlike any other flow, is a very simple equation: length x width x friction. Obviously length is static, whereas what we are talking about would be changes to the width or friction, toward which it would be helpful to understand the relationship between width and friction.

Traffic on NW 23rd ranges from 19,000 ADT at Classen to 27,000 ADT at Broadway, according to ACOG's system. Only Classen moves more traffic through the inner north side (about 30,000 ADT). That is certainly a lot of traffic. For the sake of comparison, I think it would be valuable to look at Peoria Avenue in Tulsa. According to INCOG's system, Peoria carries 20,000 to 23,000 ADT between 21st Street and 41st Street, which is basically the full extent of Brookside (basically if you rolled Paseo, Plaza, and Uptown all together and gave it a Tulsa address).

http://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=710c9600be594232870b64f1ed4d11e 7

So basically the same. I think it's worthwhile to note that Peoria is 4-lanes with unlimited left turns anywhere, and I have never once seen backed-up traffic on Peoria. Lucky for them, they have a wider ROW than NW 23, but that still tells me that if they were struggling with the same issue that we are they could exchange one lane of traffic for some traffic management mechanisms. It's actually kind of bizarre that the only function of NW 23's median is to inhibit pedestrians, rather than left-turners (besides looking lovely of course).

So all of that is to get me to a few points that should be relatively obvious:
1) You don't need to support all possible or potential traffic, just the traffic that is there now (which is heavier eastbound than westbound). At a minimum you only need 1 lane for westbound traffic.
2) Traffic queues at Classen/Western and Broadway/235 are the cause of any backed-up traffic, not any perceived shortage of lanes.
3) The congestion at the 235 end is indicative of the difference between 27,000 ADT and 19,000 ADT (traffic volume at the Classen/Western end).
4) While the Classen/Western end performs at a very high Level of Service (congestion being very rare) the Broadway end is probably a B or a C, presently, which any improvements should seek to maintain.

This all builds up to the age-old debate. In urban opportunity areas, in which traffic volumes could be harnessed so that economic activity and street life may flourish, who is deserving of the highest LOS? Bicyclists? Cars? Pedestrians? Transit? It seems you can balance them all out, or you can ensure that cars have that A-rated LOS with no congestion EVER, at the expense of neighborhood-level street life. What do those alternatives look like? How bad would it really be for a major arterial to have a B- or C-rated LOS?

In many states (not named Oklahoma) new roads are expressly designed for a C- or D-rated LOS. It's important to understand that LOS, which civil engineers live and die by, only pertains to traffic movement and not how the street supports its businesses and residents, or how it compliments surrounding neighborhoods. In NY or CA, it is very common for any new road "improvement" to show an F-rated LOS. You can't build yourself out of congestion. In the case of 23rd, we already have the best weapon ever invented in the battle against congestion: the grid system.

Thanks for the well thought out response, I hadn't ever considered the Peoria comparison. At any rate, if someone puts a plan together with the facts to support why it would work, I'm all for it.

Excellent post, Spartan. Lots of good information.

So why exactly does 23rd get so much more Eastbound traffic than Westbound?

I really like the 3 lane idea, especially if you prohibit left turns between Shartel and either Robinson or Harvey (That could also be time specific, i.e. no left turns between whatever hours traffic is most congested).

So between Shartel and Robinson, I think this could be pretty functional:

Running North to South
Building
Sidewalk at least 15 feet wide
Parking
Single westbound lane
Median
2 eastbound lanes
Sidewalk at least 15 feet wide (No parking)
Building

You might even put a barrier to any sort of automobile cross traffic @ Harvey, Hudson, Dewey and Lee, making Walker the only place where cars can cross 23rd.

Ooo, all good suggestions. I like. How do we cram this down the appropriate throats? :)

Ooo, all good suggestions. I like. How do we cram this down the appropriate throats? :)

ISSUU - Uptown 23rd Urban Environment Framework by OU Institute for Quality Communities (http://issuu.com/ouiqc/docs/uptownfinal) See this IQC study/plan for the Uptown area. There's already a lot of people thinking about how to make NW 23rd a better place.

With regard to one-laning the west-bound traffic; the City's Public Works Dept.'s policy is when AADT for a road hits 7,000 then it's time to 4-lane it, so that may be a challenge when trying to convince engineers that one lane is sufficient.

Personally, I think the median should go. That's 8' right there that could go to the sidewalks. Also, if the lanes were narrowed to 10' (another thing that City engineers hate) that would add another 4' to play with, so 6' that could go to each sidewalk.

So why exactly does 23rd get so much more Eastbound traffic than Westbound?



I have no idea but I have always assumed it is a combination of people going downtown, the capitol and the interstate.

Westbound traffic has been restricted to one lane at numerous times this summer around the Tower Theater due to its construction. In my opinion, it has been a very small inconvenience. In fact, the slowest times I've traveled on 23rd this summer haven't been from when there is only one lane, but when there are cars trying to turn left at a non-light intersection. Even at those times, westbound traffic was much less congested than those traveling eastbound.

I'd gladly sacrifice one westbound lane to increase the walkability and vibe of 23rd.

ISSUU - Uptown 23rd Urban Environment Framework by OU Institute for Quality Communities (http://issuu.com/ouiqc/docs/uptownfinal) See this IQC study/plan for the Uptown area. There's already a lot of people thinking about how to make NW 23rd a better place.

With regard to one-laning the west-bound traffic; the City's Public Works Dept.'s policy is when AADT for a road hits 7,000 then it's time to 4-lane it, so that may be a challenge when trying to convince engineers that one lane is sufficient.

Personally, I think the median should go. That's 8' right there that could go to the sidewalks. Also, if the lanes were narrowed to 10' (another thing that City engineers hate) that would add another 4' to play with, so 6' that could go to each sidewalk.

I'd be fine with getting rid of the median, but really if you just get rid of the parking that would be sufficient. But, maybe we could present a plan where the parking lane on the Westbound side is wide enough that it could quickly be turned into a traffic lane if the 1-lane + no left turns turns out to be a failure.