I'd much rather see a Caribou Coffee there, but this should still be another nice addition to the area.

I mean the County Assessor usually takes a couple of weeks or so to update in my experience.

I mean the County Assessor usually takes a couple of weeks or so to update in my experience.

They are down to about a week and sometimes less these days.

If/when a sale closes, then they still have to go through Urban Design and all that fun stuff. Shouldn't be a problem, but the way we are all over that stuff there should be ample warning before dirt ever starts to move.

Observation on a recent visit to Taj...

The streetlights in front of Mutts are out, in fact it appears to be the case on the stretch from Walgreens down toward OCU.

OKCTalk - Large church coming to Uptown / 23rd (http://www.okctalk.com/content.php?r=89-Large-church-coming-to-Uptown-23rd)

Oh. Cool.......

Will this affect the district's legal ability to pursue full scale (ABC-3) bars?

That sucks.

Great. I'd rather a vape store open in that spot.

Will this affect the district's legal ability to pursue full scale (ABC-3) bars?

It will, unfortunately. There are no loopholes in that law for churches, regardless of their doctrinal position on alcohol.

Great. I'd rather a vape store open in that spot.Yeap. I'd be more excited for another Cox Solutions, Verizon, or Mattress Store going in here. Another freakin church. They pop up like weeds here. Churches, banks, and cheap strip malls with a pizza store, tanning salon, and a liquor store are something I think we need more of.

Remember, this was one of three buildings to be occupied by the proposed live music venue that was chased away by the residents.

But in that case, they had to go before the Planning Commission in order to get rezoning and a liquor license.

I'm not sure if the church will need rezoning but if not, it's a simple matter of closing on the property and waiting for the building permit to be approved.

Remember, this was one of three buildings to be occupied by the proposed live music venue that was chased away by the residents.

But in that case, they had to go before the Planning Commission in order to get rezoning and a liquor license.

I'm not sure if the church will need rezoning but if not, it's a simple matter of closing on the property and waiting for the building permit to be approved.Awesome! Thanks for reminding us!! ;)

I do remember at one point you spoke of a church was eyeballing the tower theater, is that this church?

The bad thing about it being a church is it permanently handicaps development possibilities in the area. Liked the idea of the Tower becoming an Alamo draft house style cinema? It's no longer a possibility.

Something like Alamo Drafthouse would not be ABC-3.

There has been a lot of sh!tty news lately.

This will have little to no impact on any future development in this area.

If anything, they'll bring in a lot of people on Sundays and help Cheever's, Pizzeria Gusto, etc.

A whole section of the block used only a few hours a week vs. normal retail? That's a pretty significant impact.

It's one retail bay out of hundreds in the area, and has been vacant for quite a while.

This will have little to no impact on any future development in this area.

If anything, they'll bring in a lot of people on Sundays and help Cheever's, Pizzeria Gusto, etc.

COMPLETELY disagree...this district does not need a church on the main drag. Not the right place. It absolutely does affect the momentum of the district. Where the heck are these people going to park? The ONLY positive is hopefully the money they spend will unify the storefronts and improve the exterior or hopefully build a parking garage for the district to use. As a resident of HH, this announcement makes me pissy.

Bet those bar owners are glad they opposed the live music now...

I guess the new urbanism intersects with the new atheism. Oh no, a church! The contingent of the uptown population that seeks community in the form of worship could potentially crowd out develop that might make bchris less embarrassed to be living in Oklahoma City! Surely the forces of the enlightened can put a stop to this so we can halt the destruction of what might have become a legitimately cool neighborhood.

Reminder that there is a church right in the middle of the Plaza District and it hasn't exactly held them back.

Reminder that there is a church right in the middle of the Plaza District and it hasn't exactly held them back.

And Auto Alley with Frontline. I don't know these guys personally, but usually a church that chooses to plant itself in an urban environment seeks to be an asset to the community. If anything, you can probably see these guys as reaching out to the transient population and filling out Sunday Brunch at the very least. You probably will get more trouble from HH than a church.

As a strong Christian my only concern with this proposal is will that be dead space the other six days of the week...

As a strong Christian my only concern with this proposal is will that be dead space the other six days of the week...

I wouldn't call it dead. Most modern churches operate 7 days a week. While not having services each day, there are usually staff members in and out daily. Summers and Holiday seasons are especially busy. Parking may become an issue, however I would say that it helps foot traffic for the area.

I think it'll be interesting to see if they interact with the district the way that the church in the Plaza has.

That is a horrible spot for a church. Look,I know this is the Bible belt and all but c'mon. Just when an area has all the making of Hipstreet OKC here comes a church. I don't have anything against churches but this is just not a good spot IMO. Does there have to be a church around every corner in this state?

That is a horrible spot for a church. Look,I know this is the Bible belt and all but c'mon. Just when an area has all the making of Hipstreet OKC here comes a church. I don't have anything against churches but this is just not a good spot IMO. Does there have to be a church around every corner in this state?

Lol - it can't be "hip" if there is a church in some retail storefront! Oh no!

Guys come on. I'm a gay, atheist, unabashed urbanist -- and I have absolutely no problem with a church going in here. If Uptown 23rd ends up a dud, the church will be far from the main reason for it.

That being said, I do hope the space is available for community uses throughout the week. I hope there is a champion in the district who is able to successfully work with the group to activate the space when its not in use as a church.

I don't think everyone who is disappointed by this is against religion, churches, or some kind of new atheist conspirator. It is however a setback for a stretch that could have been something special. This is Oklahoma City, the buckle of the Bible Belt and there is a church on almost every corner. It is what it is though and I don't think they should be blocked from putting a church there. One thing that should be a concern though is parking. Churches generally require lots of it and it is usually of the surface variety.

There's also another church that's coming in 2015... so that will add to the mix as well.

Some of you all just leave me utterly speechless in your views. Willing to talk down on an area because OMG there's a cable store or now a CHURCH!!

If you are a true urbanist and not some faux-hipster chasing the next hot place or thing, your main concern should be making healthy neighborhoods. That means stores and establishments people actually frequent and use. Not everything needs to be an upscale fusion restaurant or bar shilling out $15 beers.

For what it is worth, super trendy South Congress Avenue in super trendy Austin has FIVE churches in a two mile stretch.

people aren't against the church per say, they are against what most churches bring - a hault to urban/adult development. OKC has an abundance of churches that typically cator to residential neighbourhoods and I think most on here are fine with those and likely attend.

I for one, am curious why this church chose this location a) to be an asset to diversify (and encourage more) development in Uptown or b) to swoop in and cast out all non-Christian venues as unholy who don't adopt their beliefs and use the Okie-doke laws to close them down. It would likely be the same reaction if a church decided to open up on 39th Street, will they cator to the neighbourhood and become an asset/player or will they try to save everybody from the evils of urban adult entertainment. .. Again, this is somewhat typical of many churches in Oklahoma being a bit judgmental and fundamentalist; Uptown being a bar district, just like 39th Street being LGBiT; can anybody on here deny that protestant churches typically view these as secular and separate.

OKC doesn't have many positive experiences with churches in urban environments aside from those that have historical roots with the city itself (downtown/midtown). I have my suspicions but I'd like to know why they chose this locale in Uptown (and not the residential neighbourhoods nearby) and if they intend to be an asset or a hindrance to the district's 'secular' development. I hope they are an urban-oriented church that will work with the district and not against it.

This place is beyond satire.

HOT ROD did a good job at laying out the concerns people have about this. Will this church be an asset to the neighborhood or will it work against it? The one in the Plaza district is an asset. ADaniel brings up a point about Austin and the urban churches there but I don't think anybody would be concerned in the least bit if Oklahoma had Texas' liquor laws.

Reminder that this church already has a Community House near 23rd Street Courts; have been operating it for some time.

And I spoke with both the pastor (Tim Mannin) and Judy Hatfield (developer of the Carnegie and a parishoner) who both said they chose this spot because they already have an established congregation within the urban core and that they feel like the uptown area is in need. They also have talked with several of the business owners in the area and want to work with all of them to make the district a better place.

They are also planning to put half a million dollars into their building.


I just can't comprehend why some would have such a violent reaction to this news.

I just can't comprehend why some would have such a violent reaction to this news.

Because there's a bunch of damn folks running from the lord out there ! LOL

I just can't comprehend why some would have such a violent reaction to this news.

The prevalence of rigid right-wing fundamentalism in Oklahoma politics and culture has a lot of people jaded I am sure. When many non-Christians here hear the word "church" it conjures up images of people like Sally Kern or the street preachers that are always in Bricktown. I really think the average non-Christian in Oklahoma is louder and more outspoken against Christianity as a reaction to the extremity of some of the churchgoing here.

It's good to hear this church will become a part of the neighborhood and that people's fear of them coming in with an agenda are likely unfounded.

This is good news, churches bring community together & will also bring activity & financial investments. They aren't moving to this location to force their religious views down people's throats and expel all those unholy establishments around them :rolleyes:. Anybody who doesn't see this as a positive is narrowly focused with anti-religious views. It is that simple.

people aren't against the church per say, they are against what most churches bring...

...It would likely be the same reaction if a church decided to open up on 39th Street, will they cator to the neighbourhood and become an asset/player or will they try to save everybody from the evils of urban adult entertainment... Again, this is somewhat typical of many churches in Oklahoma being a bit judgmental and fundamentalist; Uptown being a bar district, just like 39th Street being LGBiT; can anybody on here deny that protestant churches typically view these as secular and separate.

There are two churches on the 39th Street strip. One of them stays active through the week as a free testing clinic and also as a branch office for the Oklahoma Department of Human Services. The other caters to community outreach and community building in the Spanish-speaking community. When the bars are closed and the strip is a dead zone in the daytime, these churches are still active.

There are two churches on the 39th Street strip. One of them stays active through the week as a free testing clinic and also as a branch office for the Oklahoma Department of Human Services. The other caters to community outreach and community building in the Spanish-speaking community. When the bars are closed and the strip is a dead zone in the daytime, these churches are still active.

I knew this was a nefarious plot…they're trying to put Planned Parenthood out of business :tongue:

The only thing the church would effect would be any vacant spot within 300 ft the would look to operate under an ABC3 permit. But 23rd St., already has a ton of issues for anyone wanting to operate under an ABC3, with the HH neighborhood. Only difference with the church is that there is NO way to get approval for such a permit.

I would imagine that the Tower would go ahead and apply for an ABC3 just to have it, if that's the type of clients they are talking to about the vacant spaces. Otherwise the best anyone could operate a bar would be under an ABC2 where alcohol sales could not account for more than 49% of their revenue.

Pete, can you look up to see if an ABC3 application has already been submitted for the Tower?

This will be fine as long as the church finds a way to bring people in on more than Sunday/Wednesday night. It would be nice if they found ways for their building to be filled as often as possible: ESL classes, at least 3 services (sunday morning + evening + wednesday evening), bible studies, concerts, etc)

For this to be a good addition to the district only 2 things really need to happen: it needs to be more active than a typical church and it can't come in polemically

otherwise the best anyone could operate a bar would be under an abc2 where alcohol sales "could not" account for more than 49% of their revenue.

fify :)

The prevalence of rigid right-wing fundamentalism in Oklahoma politics and culture has a lot of people jaded I am sure. When many non-Christians here hear the word "church" it conjures up images of people like Sally Kern or the street preachers that are always in Bricktown. I really think the average non-Christian in Oklahoma is louder and more outspoken against Christianity as a reaction to the extremity of some of the churchgoing here.

It's good to hear this church will become a part of the neighborhood and that people's fear of them coming in with an agenda are likely unfounded.
For every Olivet/Kern church there are a hundred or more that do community work and you never hear about anti-everything activism that the likes of the Kerns' (and some others) are known for. The fundamentalist churches are far outnumbered by other mainstream churches, the fundamentalists are not the mainstream they just scream the loudest.


This will be fine as long as the church finds a way to bring people in on more than Sunday/Wednesday night. It would be nice if they found ways for their building to be filled as often as possible: ESL classes, at least 3 services (sunday morning + evening + wednesday evening), bible studies, concerts, etc)

For this to be a good addition to the district only 2 things really need to happen: it needs to be more active than a typical church and it can't come in polemically
Most of the newer churches are much more active than the older, traditional churches. They do things that are different because they aren't beholden to tradition. I know that back when I attended Life Church on Penn 12+ years ago there was something going on almost every night.

I did some more research and found the following, which is in conflict with what I posted previously about the liquor license.

The church has the property under contract and has filed for a building permit. Because a church is allowed under the current C-4 zoning, they will not have to go before the Planning Commission for any approvals. Also, since they plan little to no changes to the exterior other than signage, there will not be any issues with the Urban Design Commission. In other words, as soon as they close on the building and can get it ready, they can start operating as a church without any approval required.

The Tower Theater properties have an existing PUD which allows for ABC-3 businesses (alcohol sales with no food requirement). And in fact, that type of establishment is part of their plans. I know they are deep into negotiations with tenants, and at least is planning to operate under ABC-3.

Therefore, if the church starts operating before an ABC-3 permit is obtained for the Tower, that's the ballgame. No business within 300 feet could get such a license as long as the church is operating.

I know the church has discussed this with the new owners of the Tower and it seems they are trying to coordinate and cooperate. However, there are obvious concerns as I just outlined.

fify :)

According to the application we just turned in 2 weeks ago:

ABC-3 overlay Zoning May not be within 300ft of any church, public or private school, day care center or residentially zoned property.

ABC-2 Overlay, does not have to meet the same requirements.

According to the application we just turned in 2 weeks ago:

ABC-3 overlay Zoning May not be within 300ft of any church, public or private school, day care center or residentially zoned property.

ABC-2 Overlay, does not have to meet the same requirements.

I was specifically talking about the ABC-2s "requiring" a restaurant to sell 51% food. There are more than a handful of bars in this city who operate under ABC-2s but no way in hell meet the 51% food sales. We all know which ones they are.

But yes, not being granted an ABC-3 would be a huge hit to Tower. The last thing they are going to want to do is install a kitchen and it could put restraints on the venue that turn out to be quite costly.

I was specifically talking about the ABC-2s "requiring" a restaurant to sell 51% food. There are more than a handful of bars in this city who operate under ABC-2s but no way in hell meet the 51% food sales. We all know which ones they are.

Oh, I agree with you on that. It's just a matter of whether or not they wouldn't want to put in the extra work to make it look as though they are committed to selling food. I was never able to get a direct answer from the city employees on what would happen if it was discovered through an audit that you weren't following protocol for an ABC-2. Whether you would be fined or shut down. From what I gathered the city doesn't have enough employees to patrol everyone in town that is operating under an ABC-2 to see whether or not their alcohol sales exceed 49%.

Not a fan.

Nor I.

This will have absolutely zero impact, socially, on the district. In fact, it will be a good focal point of activity on Wednesdays and Sundays (assuming they have a midweek service like most do).

My only concern is the ability to add ABC-3 bars to the block.

421 NW 23rd is smack dab in the middle of the block. Walker Ave is exactly 300ft from the front door, and Hudson is exactly 300ft. if going by the property line, the opposite sides of both of the streets would be 300 feet. So, this will only have an affect on full scale ABC-3 bars (Do not serve food, or serves food and is less than 50% of revenue) on 23rd between Walker and Hudson. All storefronts in The Rise will not be bound by this. Saints, Empire, and The Mule in the plaza are all ABC-2, and a similar concept could literally open up next door to this church.

If you are concerned with the social implications and are opposing this because it's a church, you should re-examine why you love urban environments. Your concern should only be about the legal ramifications, which are not the church's fault. We should encourage diversity, of all types: religious, nonreligious, cultural, racial, gender (males, females, and transgender), sexual preference, etc. should all feel welcome to the district. A good urban district should have something for everyone. So, if you are against this simply and only because it's a church, you are on the wrong side of history. If you are concerned because of the law, then you should work to get the law changed to allow the establishment to issue a waiver if they feel it appropriate to do so. (Some churches do not forbid alcohol and would be willing to waive the restriction if allowed)

I second catch22 on this as he makes some very good points. As more dense development happens in Oklahoma this problem is going to arise more and more. I wonder what it would take to change the law to allow churches to grant exemptions from the law, especially since in 2014 many denominations have a more lax stance on alcohol than they likely did when the law went on the books. Would there be political will to touch it?

I second catch22 on this as he makes some very good points. As more dense development happens in Oklahoma this problem is going to arise more and more. I wonder what it would take to change the law to allow churches to grant exemptions from the law, especially since in 2014 many denominations have a more lax stance on alcohol than they likely did when the law went on the books. Would there be political will to touch it?

What would it take to change the law? Probably an Act of God.

What would it take to change the law? Probably an Act of God.

Good thing there's a church there to take care of it.

I was specifically talking about the ABC-2s "requiring" a restaurant to sell 51% food. There are more than a handful of bars in this city who operate under ABC-2s but no way in hell meet the 51% food sales. We all know which ones they are.
At one time I think 3.2 beer was not calculated in alcohol sales but classified under food sales since it is under a different license and tax structure and it being classified as a "non-intoxicating beverage". Not sure if that is still the case.

... Would there be political will to touch it?

Very unlikely.