I said larger.

I see.

If they would redo and add another 15 stories I bet the save the world people would calm down a bit. I would still like to see the Black hotel saved. The other buildings are just buildings that don't offer much of anything. I still don't understand the uproar over the auto hotel.

I know this will not satisfy many here, but what if they cantilevered the parking garages over the bus station and Carpenter Square and made them retail? It could look very cool and they could go up another level or so on the parking garages to compensate for the loss. I know it doesn't preserved the big buildings, but it resolves the issue of the sterile street level over much of the block.

Unnecessary

That building in Cleveland looks awful, imo.

Also, agreed with the person above. The only one of these building I'm remotely sad about is Hotel Black.

Wow! What an ugly building.

Wow! What an ugly building.

....

I like it.

Found some higher resolution photos

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Black%20Hotel/4077879157_2ee79b96c1_b.jpg
Hotel Black, June 1947

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Motor%20Hotel/4078637356_b7c014e017_b.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Carpenter%20Square/BaronsLadiesApparel400WMain.jpg

Love that last pic with the streetcar tracks.

Before the bus station

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Union%20Bus%20Station/4098684010_6fb9496fbc_b.jpg

They want to go back to the roots of parked cars on this site...

Notice this was before Hotel Black was built.

but NOT before the Motor Hotel. ....

Some interesting thoughts by Steve about this entire area.

http://www.oklahoman.com/article/5384093?embargo=1


Oh, and one more consideration in the middle of this changing streetscape — the John W. Rex Elementary. The school is at the southwest corner of Sheridan and Walker avenues, and will be surrounded by the parking for the 499 W Sheridan and Clayco developments.
Schoolchildren can regularly be seen crossing Walker and Sheridan avenues to visit downtown’s cultural assets, including the Oklahoma City Museum of Art and the Myriad Gardens.
But the numbers alone show the ramifications of the latest changes go far beyond the current topics of historic preservation, design and the appropriate role of tax increment financing. The question is whether those deciding this new skyline will really grasp all the ramifications and plan accordingly, or risk making mistakes that will be regretted for decades to come.

The thing about those smaller skinny, 2-5 story buildings, how many of those do we have in OKC? when I play Tycoon NYC, I build tons of those. I really like them, but they seem to be abundant in Hells Kitchen, Brooklyn, etc. I like them.

100% agree. And good eye for noting the nabes where they are found. The one that is slated for demolition is the only Dutch Colonial building we have in OKC. This city has seemingly torn down everything in its wake.

Found some higher resolution photos

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Black%20Hotel/4077879157_2ee79b96c1_b.jpg
Hotel Black, June 1947

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Motor%20Hotel/4078637356_b7c014e017_b.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Carpenter%20Square/BaronsLadiesApparel400WMain.jpg

Check out the sign on Hotel Black on the corner. It looks to be a mirror image of the Union Bus Station Sign that OddFab modelled our sign after. I have seen numerous pictures over the years of the Hotel but ever recall seeing that sign.

Playing a bit of devil's advocate here, I'd like to hear some more details on the arguments of why putting parking garages across from John Rex is any different than a concrete/glass wall of any other type of building. If we have a tower, how is looking at office windows different from looking at cars? I recently parked in the new arts district garage (which is night and day compared to other garages around and MUCH better. As far as garage experiences go, it was great). It's interesting to look at with the color panels and whatnot. The variety of that view would be more interesting to me than that of an office wall imho. First floor can be retail either way. And just note that the arts garage has ground retail....it's basically not leased at all, and has no signage to even be leased. Not to mention that since we're still a car culture, you have to pay to park in the garage to go to that retail unless you happen to already be there. Related to that comment, just because we offer retail at the ground level, doesn't always mean it's going to take. There are only so many coffee/sandwiches shops that can go in an area.

Something else to think about is, a lot of school designs these days eliminate windows altogether to eliminate distraction. I don't personally agree with this, but it is what it is. While Rex doesn't follow this model, who's to say that they wont just close the blinds?

So I would imagine that there's more to this complaint than im thinking of, which is why I'm asking for some elaboration on it.

Check out the sign on Hotel Black on the corner. It looks to be a mirror image of the Union Bus Station Sign that OddFab modelled our sign after. I have seen numerous pictures over the years of the Hotel but ever recall seeing that sign.

That's pretty fascinating and a good find. It's close enough that I'm honestly wondering if the Hotel Black sign was removed from the hotel and repurposed on the bus station..?

That's pretty fascinating and a good find. It's close enough that I'm honestly wondering if the Hotel Black sign was removed from the hotel and repurposed on the bus station..?

Interesting idea...

Looking at the bus station, it appears the sign isn't as large, though:

http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/development-buildings/6143d1389877585-union-bus-station-bus11314a.jpg

Also, the bus station was built in 1941 and the photo of Hotel Black with the similar sign was from 1947.

Perhaps the hotel borrowed the design after the bus station was constructed?

Yes, I noticed that too and agree, plus the fields at top/bottom are sized/configured differently, but it is possible that it was cut down. It is extremely common for sign cans to be repurposed, as they are one of the most expensive elements in sign making. I got a crash course on that topic when administering Automobile Alley's neon incentive grant fund. If you have a pre-existing, usable sign can you're well ahead of the game.

Still, very cool revelation that they were at one time clearly designed to complement each other.

Playing a bit of devil's advocate here, I'd like to hear some more details on the arguments of why putting parking garages across from John Rex is any different than a concrete/glass wall of any other type of building. So I would imagine that there's more to this complaint than im thinking of, which is why I'm asking for some elaboration on it.

I would think it would be due to the traffic it brings, along with children crossing the street that is the issue, not the garages themselves.

Also, the bus station was built in 1941 and the photo of Hotel Black with the similar sign was from 1947.

Perhaps the hotel borrowed the design after the bus station was constructed?
Interesting. Was the sign on the bus station from day one? Are there photos of the station before 1947 with the sign on it? Either way you're right that it is neat (and interesting).

Playing a bit of devil's advocate here, I'd like to hear some more details on the arguments of why putting parking garages across from John Rex is any different than a concrete/glass wall of any other type of building. If we have a tower, how is looking at office windows different from looking at cars? I recently parked in the new arts district garage (which is night and day compared to other garages around and MUCH better. As far as garage experiences go, it was great). It's interesting to look at with the color panels and whatnot. The variety of that view would be more interesting to me than that of an office wall imho. First floor can be retail either way. And just note that the arts garage has ground retail....it's basically not leased at all, and has no signage to even be leased. Not to mention that since we're still a car culture, you have to pay to park in the garage to go to that retail unless you happen to already be there. Related to that comment, just because we offer retail at the ground level, doesn't always mean it's going to take. There are only so many coffee/sandwiches shops that can go in an area.

Something else to think about is, a lot of school designs these days eliminate windows altogether to eliminate distraction. I don't personally agree with this, but it is what it is. While Rex doesn't follow this model, who's to say that they wont just close the blinds?

So I would imagine that there's more to this complaint than im thinking of, which is why I'm asking for some elaboration on it.

Parking garages have entrances/exits that cross sidewalks with poor visibility
Parking garages have cars in them, so you can hear engines and honking echoing all day
Parking garages don't have people in them observing the street- This has a distinct effect on how people perceive the comfort of the street

Perhaps most of all,

Parking garages are not a charming location for a cute retail startup or restaurant concept that will add value to the area

Parking garages have entrances/exits that cross sidewalks with poor visibility
Parking garages have cars in them, so you can hear engines and honking echoing all day
Parking garages don't have people in them observing the street- This has a distinct effect on how people perceive the comfort of the street

Perhaps most of all,

Parking garages are not a charming location for a cute retail startup or restaurant concept that will add value to the area

Kinda makes you wonder why the grade school was built across the street from a parking garage and at the intersection of two major streets to begin with. doesn't it?

I think that almost 700,000 sf of new class A office space that this parking is being built to support adds a lot more value than a cute little start up or restaurant concept but the good news is that space is being built for those things too...

I originally had similar thoughts about the school location (long ago); no doubt you have a point. But, the school is built and it would be foolish to have all of this parking (and more importantly, common egress) right next to it. There was NO plan to put in this much parking when the school was constructed (didn't it just open in the summer?) and DEVON was already built and had no plans to expand.

Nonetheless, you should also agree that the towers/garages can be better designed and built better than what has been presented thus far. There are plenty of examples that OKC could adopt to get the parking AND create an urban environment while retaining SOME of its history. It can be a win-win-win for everyone, it doesn't have to result in a net negative if the people in-charge would be open to hear ideas that work elsewhere.

I think this is what most are arguing (well, at least I am). Some are quick to draw lines and call me (and others) as vilifying Nichols. If you see it that way, then sometimes that image in the mirror hurts. But my intent was not to vilify him but to add to dialog with examples from my home city and others that I frequent which have urban environments and had/have similar issues.

Steve makes excellent points that people just need to consider rather than blanket rubber stamp because it is Larry Nichols behind the scenes. I wonder why he's behind instead of out in front (like with the Devon Tower)? He must know that this development is a net negative and is using Preftakes (and R Willilams) to take the heat.

Playing a bit of devil's advocate here, I'd like to hear some more details on the arguments of why putting parking garages across from John Rex is any different than a concrete/glass wall of any other type of building. If we have a tower, how is looking at office windows different from looking at cars? I recently parked in the new arts district garage (which is night and day compared to other garages around and MUCH better. As far as garage experiences go, it was great). It's interesting to look at with the color panels and whatnot. The variety of that view would be more interesting to me than that of an office wall imho. First floor can be retail either way. And just note that the arts garage has ground retail....it's basically not leased at all, and has no signage to even be leased. Not to mention that since we're still a car culture, you have to pay to park in the garage to go to that retail unless you happen to already be there. Related to that comment, just because we offer retail at the ground level, doesn't always mean it's going to take. There are only so many coffee/sandwiches shops that can go in an area.

Something else to think about is, a lot of school designs these days eliminate windows altogether to eliminate distraction. I don't personally agree with this, but it is what it is. While Rex doesn't follow this model, who's to say that they wont just close the blinds?

So I would imagine that there's more to this complaint than im thinking of, which is why I'm asking for some elaboration on it.

Good question. I think that, as much as I rail against ideology including urbanism, there is a point where these issues are all so complex and involve different pieces (for instance the garage street level retail is a different issue than urban design aesthetics). Once you reach that point with so many broader debates that we have in OKC, there may be value in an attaining an overall guiding value that improves all of the tiny little issues. Urbanism is a good remedy to a lot of the causes for our big issues, regardless of how you'd prefer to settle the big issue that is more complex.

January 15 2015

https://www.flickr.com/photos/williamhider/sets/72157650250638496/

So this thread is pretty much dead now?

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7543/16289782292_c7bfcbb157_b.jpg

Gee, will the campers have a spot in the glass tower surrounding the sign after it gets moved?

Probably belongs in the nostalgia thread but... one summer around 1970 when I was a young teen, my grandmother bought me a book of city bus tickets, taped three dimes in the back cover in case I needed to make some phone calls, and must have paid for a membership to the Y. The purpose was so I could take the bus downtown and go to the downtown Y. Most of the kids at the Y were a-holes and I didn't particularly care for the activities there, but I went a few times, checked in at the Y and then strolled the CBD, which sometimes included visiting the magic shop in the lobby of the Hotel Black. Things change.


Gee, will the campers have a spot in the glass tower surrounding the sign after it gets moved?

Seems confusing to put that sign where there isn't a bus station. Build the atrium and put something interesting inside. Maybe some art.

Seems confusing to put that sign where there isn't a bus station. Build the atrium and put something interesting inside. Maybe some art.

Agree completely. Slapping the bus station sign on a garage with no bus service is silly. If they really want something "iconic" as everything is always described, commission Chihuly to create something for the glass corner and maybe even make the primary color the same as the tiles on the bus station.

Agree completely. Slapping the bus station sign on a garage with no bus service is silly. If they really want something "iconic" as everything is always described, commission Chihuly to create something for the glass corner and maybe even make the primary color the same as the tiles on the bus station.

Chihuly exhibits are a couple of blocks up Walker......need to change it up.

Chihuly exhibits are a couple of blocks up Walker......need to change it up.

I suppose - still better than a bus station sign though!! :D

https://twitter.com/retrokc/status/556170782829981696

Well that confirms it. Not the same sign can. But obviously one inspired the other.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B7fqX5hIgAAfAOm.jpg

Hudson Hotel and the "sundry fountain" would be where the Devon auditorium stands today. Great photo, Will.

^ Notice the "nuclear fallout shelter sign" above the guys head at the Hudson Hotel.

Probably belongs in the nostalgia thread but... one summer around 1970 when I was a young teen, my grandmother bought me a book of city bus tickets, taped three dimes in the back cover in case I needed to make some phone calls, and must have paid for a membership to the Y. The purpose was so I could take the bus downtown and go to the downtown Y. Most of the kids at the Y were a-holes and I didn't particularly care for the activities there, but I went a few times, checked in at the Y and then strolled the CBD, which sometimes included visiting the magic shop in the lobby of the Hotel Black. Things change.



Seems confusing to put that sign where there isn't a bus station. Build the atrium and put something interesting inside. Maybe some art.

If they are going to take it off the building, demolish the building and stick it on a new building, I would rather they put it on the new downtown hub at the bus terminal (or at least one of the downtown bus stops).

^ Notice the "nuclear fallout shelter sign" above the guys head at the Hudson Hotel.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing!

10009
Got another shot of the Bus Station sign, will they restore it before they move it to the parking garage?
EDITED: to fix the sentence.

Far better than the bitch, whine, moan, groan, oil-owns-everything, Nichols sucks, we-cant-do-anything-right, OKC-so-lame thread. I will say, no demolition of those buildings should be allowed until and unless the financial and construction committments are in concrete.

10009
Got another shot of the Bus Station sign, will they restore it before they move it to the parking garage?
EDITED: to fix the sentence.

I'm sure they'll have it restored.

There will be a pretty good gap between the time it comes down (very soon) and the time it goes back up (about two years).

Ah, Thanks Pete!
I know this ship has sailed, but keeping the front facade of the motor hotel would've been great, maybe they could've turned it into a nice atrium/cafe like the hearst tower in NYC.
10014

Far better than the bitch, whine, moan, groan, oil-owns-everything, Nichols sucks, we-cant-do-anything-right, OKC-so-lame thread. I will say, no demolition of those buildings should be allowed until and unless the financial and construction committments are in concrete.

+1

This should be a requirement for all demolitions in my opinion. OKC has lost too many historic structures that ended up being replaced by parking lots and/or scaled down versions of what was originally proposed. If I was elected to city council, this would be the first thing I would try to get done.

FWIW, there is far less chance this project won't be built than there ever was the structures standing in its way would be saved from demo.
Not saying I think that's a good thing, but when one thinks about the money that has already gone into making sure the space was available to become DevWest (and the cars they rode in on) it doesn't seem even remotely possible it would not happen.

FWIW, there is far less chance this project won't be built than there ever was the structures standing in its way would be saved from demo.
Not saying I think that's a good thing, but when one thinks about the money that has already gone into making sure the space was available to become DevWest (and the cars they rode in on) it doesn't seem even remotely possible it would not happen.

Business 101, don't make future decisions on sunk costs. They won't build something that isn't economically feasible now or in the future just because they have already spent a ton on something in the past.

Facadism makes a mockery of a historic structure. A building is either worth preserving in its entirety or not worth preserving at all. In this case the determination was made that the buildings were not worth preserving. Especially in the case of the Hotel Black, I personally disagree, but ripping out everything but the skin and building a new structure behind it is ghoulish, insulting, half-assed lip service. I'd rather see the buildings come down than see their death masks haunt the street forever.

Some front: the bad developments making a joke of historic buildings | Art and design | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/architecture-design-blog/2014/aug/25/front-facade-bad-developments-ruining-historic-buildings)

Facadism makes a mockery of a historic structure. A building is either worth preserving in its entirety or not worth preserving at all. In this case the determination was made that the buildings were not worth preserving. Especially in the case of the Hotel Black, I personally disagree, but ripping out everything but the skin and building a new structure behind it is ghoulish, insulting, half-assed lip service. I'd rather see the buildings come down than see their death masks haunt the street forever.

Some front: the bad developments making a joke of historic buildings | Art and design | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/architecture-design-blog/2014/aug/25/front-facade-bad-developments-ruining-historic-buildings)

Wow. You should share this in the 499 Sheridan thread. Apparently incorporating old into new isn't as easy and mindless as some might want others to think.

Facadism makes a mockery of a historic structure. A building is either worth preserving in its entirety or not worth preserving at all. In this case the determination was made that the buildings were not worth preserving. Especially in the case of the Hotel Black, I personally disagree, but ripping out everything but the skin and building a new structure behind it is ghoulish, insulting, half-assed lip service. I'd rather see the buildings come down than see their death masks haunt the street forever.

Some front: the bad developments making a joke of historic buildings | Art and design | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/architecture-design-blog/2014/aug/25/front-facade-bad-developments-ruining-historic-buildings)

Fair enough, If done right facadism can work out okay, but in this situation i think you're probably right...

Oh, and one more interesting thing i saw while walking around the preftakes block yesterday.....
On the short green building by carpenter square there were bootprints under the handle of the door as if someone had tried to break in, I wish i got pictures of it.

Oh, and one more interesting thing i saw while walking around the preftakes block yesterday.....
On the short green building by carpenter square there were bootprints under the handle of the door as if someone had tried to break in, I wish i got pictures of it.

Old photo but the one you're talking about.

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5251/5498012783_874e0d1bfd_b.jpg

Old photo but the one you're talking about.

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5251/5498012783_874e0d1bfd_b.jpg
Woops! My bad. it was actually the red brick building right next to it and main place, not sure why i thought it was the green one, thanks though haha.

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5093/5498607302_5d7da1342d_b.jpg

Will this be the demolition technique?

http://i.imgur.com/BnJgbge.jpg

Will this be the demolition technique?

http://i.imgur.com/BnJgbge.jpg
Just wearing this makes me want to put on a hardhat,
How would that even be possible?

(And yes the red brick building was the one with finger prints under the handle, i'll try to get close and snap some of it later.)

July 7 1975

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Black%20Hotel/Traverse%20Cliff.%20Photograph%202012.201.B0961.03 43%20Photograph%20July%207%201975.jpg

August 7 1951, Terminal Building in middle.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Black%20Hotel/Petrauskas%20Kazimir%20Casey.%20Photograph%202012. 201.B0961.0339%20Photograph%20August%207%201951.jp g

May 22 1980

"The 50 year old Black Hotel awaits construction work that will change it into a modern office condominium."

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Black%20Hotel/Argo%20Jim.%20Photograph%202012.201.B0961.0344%20P hotograph%20May%2022%201980.jpg

Wow. Thanks, Will.

Cool and depressing at the same time.