I hope nobody really thinks that each building needs to be demolished so that the ESB can be mimicked on the Preftakes block.I'm not saying that. In fact, I said earlier in the thread I wish they would keep these buildings as there are plenty of empty lots to build on.

You prefer that over the Empire State Building?
If you've ever seen the Empire State building up close you would too. Yes it's tall...but the architectural detail is not significant

I want something like this on Sheridan. The land just south of the street will have some huge developement, I'd like to see something with lots of retail and maybe a resturaunt.
9610

Continued
9611

We're too demo-happy in OKC, I'm with Spartan that we need to 1) know what is planned on being developed 2) we need some way to ensure that the plan isn't bastardized and falls through regardless of what's happening 3) there needs to be some consequence to the developers if they don't build what they promised as part of the demo agreement. What I don't want is to find ourselves at a VERY potential energy crash soon, only to see that what was going to be a 30 story office block, turn into a 6 floor piece of crap, or even worse...nothing (think the hole in the ground where the Chicago Spire was supposed to go). Then, not only have we not gotten a new structure, but we've lost history.

I'm a middle-grounder on the demo vs preserve battle. I don't think either side should have blanket approval because I think there are always going to be some situations where what the "new" brings, overrides what the "old" has. With Preftakes, it just doesn't pass my sniff test. Unfortunately, I don't think the board is going to see it my way. And even more unfortunately, I don't think we'll ever see a plan that ties the developers to their promises in OKC. We've been down that road with downtown with SOOOO many large projects. The Hilton (never built), Leadership Square (cut up and reduced in height), 101 Park Avenue (old sonic HQ....and HAD a historic façade and then was chopped almost in half), The Galleria (never built)....LOTS of stuff in the Oil Bust/Savings and Loan crash. If you're not familiar with the history of broken promises in OKC, Lackmeyer's book "OKC, Second Time Around" does a pretty good job of filling in a lot of historical info on downtown...up to that point in time. So things like this make me very weary of what would happen. Heck, even in recent history, Sandridge fell through on part of their promises because of the board shake up pushed by Carl Icahn. That's an example of how a totally outside influence can drastically change things. We lost a whole tower out of that one. And after all that fighting over the India Temple.....

^^^ Bombermwc says it very well.

We're too demo-happy in OKC, I'm with Spartan that we need to 1) know what is planned on being developed 2) we need some way to ensure that the plan isn't bastardized and falls through regardless of what's happening 3) there needs to be some consequence to the developers if they don't build what they promised as part of the demo agreement. What I don't want is to find ourselves at a VERY potential energy crash soon, only to see that what was going to be a 30 story office block, turn into a 6 floor piece of crap, or even worse...nothing (think the hole in the ground where the Chicago Spire was supposed to go). Then, not only have we not gotten a new structure, but we've lost history.

I'm a middle-grounder on the demo vs preserve battle. I don't think either side should have blanket approval because I think there are always going to be some situations where what the "new" brings, overrides what the "old" has. With Preftakes, it just doesn't pass my sniff test. Unfortunately, I don't think the board is going to see it my way. And even more unfortunately, I don't think we'll ever see a plan that ties the developers to their promises in OKC. We've been down that road with downtown with SOOOO many large projects. The Hilton (never built), Leadership Square (cut up and reduced in height), 101 Park Avenue (old sonic HQ....and HAD a historic façade and then was chopped almost in half), The Galleria (never built)....LOTS of stuff in the Oil Bust/Savings and Loan crash. If you're not familiar with the history of broken promises in OKC, Lackmeyer's book "OKC, Second Time Around" does a pretty good job of filling in a lot of historical info on downtown...up to that point in time. So things like this make me very weary of what would happen. Heck, even in recent history, Sandridge fell through on part of their promises because of the board shake up pushed by Carl Icahn. That's an example of how a totally outside influence can drastically change things. We lost a whole tower out of that one. And after all that fighting over the India Temple.....

Agree, except that carl Ichan never had anything to do with Sandridge. He and a large capitol firm were responsible for the shake up at CHK.

Traffic counters have been installed on each bounding streets of the Preftakes Block. Don't remember seeing them earlier this week so they had to have been placed in the last couple of days. I though at first it might have something do with the Stage Center Block but the counter is on only the Sheridan side of that block.

PhiAlpha, maybe I was confused with when he helped get rid of KMG. Anyway, the point was just about outside influences having an "unknown" effect on things.

See article at the top of the page for a major development in this project:

Pickard Chilton architects will present next week to the Downtown Design Review Committee.

Whelp...these buildings are "history"...

For 12/18/14

John Pickard, Pickard Chilton, will make a presentation, for informational purposes only, on a proposal to demolish existing structures and construct a new office building and parking garage structures along Sheridan Ave and Main Street between Walker Ave and Hudson Ave.

If it's along Sheridan and Main St, that pretty much means the Main St. buildings are goners but maybe not One North Hudson since it's on the corner. Can only wait and see.

See article at the top of the page for a major development in this project:

Pickard Chilton architects will present next week to the Downtown Design Review Committee.

Been a long time coming. Any ideas on what to expect?

I edited the article at the top with everything I know.

Note the wording of the agenda item:


John Pickard, Pickard Chilton, will make a presentation, for informational purposes only, on a proposal to demolish existing structures and construct a new office building and parking garage structures along Sheridan Ave and Main Street between Walker Ave and Hudson Ave.

Seems to imply one office tower and perhaps two parking garages.

We're going to find out soon what our city stands for.

We're going to find out soon what our city stands for.

Hope fully development and growth

I am torn. I say good riddance to the two-story structures on this block. It's going to be really painful though to see Motor Hotel and One North Hudson go though if that ends up being proposed. They would be perfect retrof

Pickard Chilton

Meh.

The Price of Progress...


The Price of Progress: How Much are We Willing to Pay?

In this day and age, various terms associated with economic development came about as means of measuring the well-being of each individual in the society such as per capita income, gross domestic product (GDP), gross national product (GNP), unemployment rate, literacy rate, and many more. The emergence of these terminologies is due to the consideration of government planners of each nation to make a step forward to reach economic development. Of course, compromises should be done in order to acquire the advantages brought about by the ideology of progress. But if you will come to think of it, what is the price to achieve them and how much are we willing to pay?


The Price of Progress How Much Are We Willing to Pay? - Essays - Smilejulia (http://www.studymode.com/essays/The-Price-Of-Progress-How-Much-920628.html)

OKC has said goodbye to a number of structures like the Criterion Theater, Biltmore Hotel, All Sports Stadium, Stage Center, Deep Deuce and the list goes on. These structures were apart of the memories of many of us who grew up in Oklahoma City; they became obsolete, neglected, replaced and some forgotten.

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608019614039149177&pid=15.1&P=0

Excerpts from The Way We Were (Memories)


Like the corners of my mind
Misty watercolor memories
Of the way we were...

...Can it be that it was all so simple then? Or has time rewritten every line?...

...What's too painful to remember
We simply choose to forget...

--written by Bergman, Alan / Bergman, Marilyn / Mc Cluskey, Howard Dean / Hamlisch, Marvin.

Meh.

You kidding? I must dedicate a whole thread just to bash you on this! This is amazing architecture

I'm surprised there is not more excitement about this development. Even though there have been rumors for quite some time I'm very excited that we are about to see something that is concrete.

I'm all for them tearing whatever needs to be torn down, as long as it's going to improve the block and downtown in general.

You kidding? I must dedicate a whole thread just to bash you on this! This is amazing architecture

Not kidding. Bash away.

From an engineering perspective, I agree with you, but at the street level I'm not all that excited about a whole ****load of the same cold glass and steel we've got across the street, which as far as I can tell is all they do. I like the Devon, but there is such a thing as too much. We'll see -- I'll probably be proven wrong. Hope so.

From an engineering perspective, I agree with you, but at the street level I'm not all that excited about a whole ****load of the same cold glass and steel we've got across the street, which as far as I can tell is all they do. I like the Devon, but there is such a thing as too much. We'll see -- I'll probably be proven wrong. Hope so.

With this, I agree with you as well haha. I'm looking forward to a street wall, or development right off the sidewalk. I don't look forward to another complex like the Devon. We have too many parks, and I would like some density

Uggh....

I am so torn. I'm excited that the skyline is going to grow, but I hate that OKC is literally tearing down it's history.

I'm surprised there is not more excitement about this development. Even though there have been rumors for quite some time I'm very excited that we are about to see something that is concrete.

I'm not sure what you expect in the way of excitement. Nobody really knows anything for sure to get excited about at this point. One thing you can be sure of though is that as soon as we know something the naysayers here will come out of the woodwork quickly no matter what is proposed. :)

my guess is that a new skyscraper is built where the bus station exists today, Hotel Black and the Motor Hotel are saved, and the Main Street facades are restored/saved for retail street frontage with structured parking rising and going underground connecting to the skyscraper. wild guess, but also somewhat preferred as this allows the best of all worlds, new skyscraper + new significant parking (including underground) + saving two historic buildings + saving historic main street retail frontage.

win win win win win.

I like the way Hot Rod thinks.

I did a bunch of checking last night and by all indications everything on this block will be leveled apart from the City building (Main Place - 420 W. Main) and the three small buildings immediately to the west.

There will be two large parking structures, lots of street-level commercial/retail and an office tower of about 25 stories.

I believe the office building will go on the corner of Main & Sheridan, on the site of One North Hudson and the Auto Hotel, with a garage along Main Street and another one along Sheridan stretching all the way to Walker (the present bus station site). There will likely be a skybridge over Hudson to connect to the Devon complex.

It's not completely clear if everything will be demolished and developed at the same time, but that seems to be a likely possibility.

The development will look very much like the one shown in the Clayco presentation, although the exact massing has changed:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/preftakes121014a.jpg

Where's Steve?

OK.......25 stories, how high is that compared to the Chase Tower?.......higher I hope.

Where's Steve?

OK.......25 stories, how high is that compared to the Chase Tower?.......higher I hope.

It should be slightly shorter than the Chase tower. It will probably be the third tallest building in OKC.

By that rendering is looks as though it will be taller than the new OGE building, but much shorter than Devon. Like Bchris says, probably slightly shorter than chase.

Super bummed we are losing One North Hudson. To the point that I'm not even sure I'm excited about this proposal.

You can bet the proposal will be designed to knock your socks off and help people forget about the demolitions.

In any event, the mystery will be resolved next week.

We're too demo-happy in OKC, I'm with Spartan that we need to 1) know what is planned on being developed 2) we need some way to ensure that the plan isn't bastardized and falls through regardless of what's happening 3) there needs to be some consequence to the developers if they don't build what they promised as part of the demo agreement.

This is why the demo permit should be implied in the building permit. Let's see what the developer gets financing for and then decide if it is a good trade or not. If it's not a good trade then the building permit gets rejected and the developer can come back with a better plan. As for the rest of your comment, I am not a preservationist just for preservation sake or because some famous hack thinks his building is the greatest thing ever designed, I want to preserve good urbanism - and get rid of bad urbansim. The Hotel Black, AutoHotel, and Bus Station are good urbanism and I am almost certain what is built in their place will be bad urbanism. That is not a trade I would like to make.

I don't have any doubt what we will be getting will be better than what we have. Just wish we could get what we are getting & keep what we have.

Anybody else think we are focused too much on current demand for parking, without looking to the future? I just feel like in 20 years our mass transportation will be almost fully functional, and downtown will have a ton more residential to warrant all the parking garages we are rushing to build. I understand we are in a shortage right now but in the future we might be in a glut.

I 100% agree about the parking garages, and I am not particularly happy with TIF funding being used to build more parking when it should be going to getting rail-based mass transit running.

The argument in favor of this development will focus heavily on how the lack of parking in the CBD core is choking off development and activity.

And that it's going to get much worse with the convention center, Clayco, Parkside, Dowell Center, Century Center and FNC all happening very soon.

Is something going to happen with the Dowell Center? Besides him sitting on it?

I don't have any doubt what we will be getting will be better than what we have. Just wish we could get what we are getting & keep what we have.

Anybody else think we are focused too much on current demand for parking, without looking to the future? I just feel like in 20 years our mass transportation will be almost fully functional, and downtown will have a ton more residential to warrant all the parking garages we are rushing to build. I understand we are in a shortage right now but in the future we might be in a glut.

If nothing else, having extra parking available downtown (even just outside of normal work hours) can reduce the costs of future residential developments since they could then make arrangements with existing garages instead of building their own (or less of their own), which can be something around twenty to thirty percent of a developments cost.

Keep in mind that right now, people that come downtown for events or activities tend to park in surface lots and side streets. I know I do when I'm in town.

That is all going to change very soon due to the massive amount of development that is about to happen.

The days of finding a free space on the street are going to come to a halt pretty soon

Also, extra parking capacity would allow for the Cox Center to be completely demoed and rebuilt. As it is now, no way that parking could be spared while the block was redeveloped.

I don't have any doubt what we will be getting will be better than what we have. Just wish we could get what we are getting & keep what we have.

Anybody else think we are focused too much on current demand for parking, without looking to the future? I just feel like in 20 years our mass transportation will be almost fully functional, and downtown will have a ton more residential to warrant all the parking garages we are rushing to build. I understand we are in a shortage right now but in the future we might be in a glut.

After 20 years, I don't think anyone is going to be complaining if we have to much parking and someone wants to demolish a parking garage for a new building.

Uggh....

I am so torn. I'm excited that the skyline is going to grow, but I hate that OKC is literally tearing down it's history.Remember, those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

As are all the rest of us, when it's the rulers who choose to do the ignoring.

Is something going to happen with the Dowell Center? Besides him sitting on it?

All indications are that he's waiting for Parkside and Kerr/Couch Park to be finished before starting work.

Will either be office or housing.

The building is actually connected via the Underground with his beautiful parking garage that was recently doubled in size.

After 20 years, I don't think anyone is going to be complaining if we have to much parking and someone wants to demolish a parking garage for a new building.

True, but a lot of parking is becoming multiuse with structures either on top or retail at the bottom.

http://i.imgur.com/7drHiqr.gif

I was hoping we would get away from the one skyscraper image Oklahoma City has, I guess not.

By that rendering is looks as though it will be taller than the new OGE building, but much shorter than Devon. Like Bchris says, probably slightly shorter than chase.

Super bummed we are losing One North Hudson. To the point that I'm not even sure I'm excited about this proposal.

I was hoping we would get away from the one skyscraper image Oklahoma City has, I guess not.

I thought at one point we were hearing this could be up to 43 stories? What happened to that?

I was hoping we would get away from the one skyscraper image Oklahoma City has, I guess not.

It will still help the skyline, just not as dramatically as a 40 story tower would. Think about it though, with four towers in the Clayco development and this tower this is going to nearly double the size of the skyline from many angles.

To everyone complaining about parking, do cities that have fully functional mass transit available have loads of empty parking in their downtowns? I'd bet not but that's why I'm asking.

I agree with you pepper. I don't want to see the Motor or One North be demolished. I think they need to save those and have the new building just go more vertical. Why tear down 2 buildings to put up a building not much taller than those? I too am losing my enthusiasm for this project as well. Can those buildings not be preserved and they just make the foot print smaller and the building higher? I say anything less than 35 floors will be a huge disappointment. Pete, what is your opinion on if this can be done and the height of this project?

I was hoping we would get away from the one skyscraper image Oklahoma City has, I guess not.

That's an older rendering from a project not even directly related to the Preftakes Block. We are just going to have to wait and see what gets announced next week and even that plan will change.

To everyone complaining about parking, do cities that have fully functional mass transit available have loads of empty parking in their downtowns? I'd bet not but that's why I'm asking.

No empty parking. If you build a parking spot someone is going to want to use it. Just like expanding roads doesn't reduce congestion, building more parking isn't going to reduce parking problems. Parking congestion will return to equilibrium in short order. They are chasing the end of the rainbow. The only way to reduce both is to give people an alternative way to get downtown without their car. Alas, even after that, the only people who will see a reduction in traffic congestion and parking problems will be people who take the alternative transportation.

Yeah, there's always going to be someone who wants to take that last parking spot. Actually there will be 3 or 4 people who want that last spot, and one will park there and the others will circle around waiting for a spot to open up.

I'm going to reserve judgment on this. I really like One North Hudson and the Motor Hotel. I think they add a lot to the city. Not everything should be a tower of blue glass. Of course, Pickard Chilton does great work. I have no doubt that what they propose will look really good. I'm sure it will complement the Devon tower, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if there was coordination between PC and ClayCo in their proposed designs. With Cathy O'Connor's recent Journal Record column, it would appear as if both of these proposals are going to be shown off at about the same time.

These two projects (ClayCo and Preftakes) will completely change the appearance of downtown. I'm sure we'll pretty quickly see renderings that have both developments together, from many angles, and are shown with the rest of downtown. My guess for the Preftakes block is going to be something taller than 25 stories. That's the height of the OG&E buildings, and there are 4 of those proposed. I'm thinking somewhere in the 35 story range, maybe 650 feet or so. This way the Pickard Chilton tower isn't drowned out by the ClayCo blocks, and it will create a stairstep effect going up to Devon.

The building is actually connected via the Underground with his beautiful parking garage that was recently doubled in size.

If I ever turn into the Incredible Hulk I know the first thing I'm going to smash.

The building shown here is probably a bit too tall (this is 40 and I think the actual proposal will be close to 25) but it shows how much this area is going to change in just a few years:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/sheridanhudson1.jpg

Yeah, there's always going to be someone who wants to take that last parking spot. Actually there will be 3 or 4 people who want that last spot, and one will park there and the others will circle around waiting for a spot to open up.


When I get some time I will peruse the Shoupista Facebook page and see if I can find stats for US cities but I was watching a program on parking in Europe a few months ago and 80% of the traffic in Rome is people looking for a parking space. On average it takes them over an hour to find a space.

No empty parking. If you build a parking spot someone is going to want to use it. Just like expanding roads doesn't reduce congestion, building more parking isn't going to reduce parking problems. Parking congestion will return to equilibrium in short order. They are chasing the end of the rainbow. The only way to reduce both is to give people an alternative way to get downtown without their car. Alas, even after that, the only people who will see a reduction in traffic congestion and parking problems will be people who take the alternative transportation.

Makes sense. You give me something to get down there in and I'll gladly not drive and park downtown. (commuter rail along the N/S tracks with a commuter lot at the Turnpike, wouldn't save that much time, probably add time but save the parking hassle)

I'm not sure what you expect in the way of excitement. Nobody really knows anything for sure to get excited about at this point.

I'm hoping we'll have some idea of what they want to do next week.

Hope fully development and growth

Hopefully quality of life over power and greed

The Price of Progress...



The Price of Progress How Much Are We Willing to Pay? - Essays - Smilejulia (http://www.studymode.com/essays/The-Price-Of-Progress-How-Much-920628.html)

OKC has said goodbye to a number of structures like the Criterion Theater, Biltmore Hotel, All Sports Stadium, Stage Center, Deep Deuce and the list goes on. These structures were apart of the memories of many of us who grew up in Oklahoma City; they became obsolete, neglected, replaced and some forgotten.

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608019614039149177&pid=15.1&P=0

Excerpts from The Way We Were (Memories)


Like the corners of my mind
Misty watercolor memories
Of the way we were...

...Can it be that it was all so simple then? Or has time rewritten every line?...

...What's too painful to remember
We simply choose to forget...

--written by Bergman, Alan / Bergman, Marilyn / Mc Cluskey, Howard Dean / Hamlisch, Marvin.

You're more ignorant than I thought if you view historic structures as obsolete. I don't think that word means what you think...