View Full Version : Preftakes Block



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G.Walker
08-23-2012, 11:50 AM
Who knows what is going happen...I have never seen a city so secretive about big developments as Oklahoma City, I just don't get it...

HangryHippo
08-23-2012, 11:51 AM
Not to be all cynical, but since when has resistance lately led to significant change to a project? If it makes strong financial sense to tear this block down, a la Sandridge et al, then I suspect they will get it approved.

It seemed slightly foolish to be asking that at first, but what you've said was my exact thought as to why it might not be all that outlandish to think demolition is what Preftakes might have in store.

Teo9969
08-23-2012, 12:01 PM
I would hope that anything over 5 stories is off-limits...you could fit a heck of a structure on the bus station site alone. Not to mention the parcels just to its north and east.

Urbanized
08-23-2012, 12:17 PM
Who knows what is going happen...I have never seen a city so secretive about big developments as Oklahoma City, I just don't get it...
Pardon my ignorance regarding your background, but what experience with development in other cities do you have to compare OKC to? My experience (which is admittedly only related to OKC) is that REAL development (big or small) tends to stay quiet during planning phases so that the developer(s) can get ducks in a row, including financing, which can of course make or break a project. To some extent that quiet period before a development becomes public is probably so that potential roadblocks and/or opportunities can be studied and planned for.

Most likely a very large number of projects go through significant exploration before being scrapped due to practicality, market research, or financing. Most real and competent developers would I'm sure hate the idea of a large project they are exploring being made public and then having to abandon the idea for the reasons mentioned above. Whether or not they made a good decision would be immaterial to the public, who would just judge it as a "failed" project.

The other side of the coin (in my experience and recollection) is that the noisier a development is, the less likely it is to happen. Lots of public pimping of a project is often actually a fishing expedition for investors or is sometimes an attempt to use PR to ram a shaky project through.

Development (especially on a large scale) is far more complex than most people understand.

BoulderSooner
08-23-2012, 01:16 PM
i could see every building he owns on the block be leveled .. except for 1 north hudson

Pete
08-23-2012, 01:19 PM
i could see every building he owns on the block be leveled .. except for 1 north hudson

Yep.

Hopefully that doesn't come to pass but it's a distinct possibility, especially given the huge amount already invested.

onthestrip
08-23-2012, 02:05 PM
Pardon my ignorance regarding your background, but what experience with development in other cities do you have to compare OKC to? My experience (which is admittedly only related to OKC) is that REAL development (big or small) tends to stay quiet during planning phases so that the developer(s) can get ducks in a row, including financing, which can of course make or break a project. To some extent that quiet period before a development becomes public is probably so that potential roadblocks and/or opportunities can be studied and planned for.

Most likely a very large number of projects go through significant exploration before being scrapped due to practicality, market research, or financing. Most real and competent developers would I'm sure hate the idea of a large project they are exploring being made public and then having to abandon the idea for the reasons mentioned above. Whether or not they made a good decision would be immaterial to the public, who would just judge it as a "failed" project.

The other side of the coin (in my experience and recollection) is that the noisier a development is, the less likely it is to happen. Lots of public pimping of a project is often actually a fishing expedition for investors or is sometimes an attempt to use PR to ram a shaky project through.

Development (especially on a large scale) is far more complex than most people understand.

This

onthestrip
08-23-2012, 02:07 PM
I would hope that anything over 5 stories is off-limits...you could fit a heck of a structure on the bus station site alone. Not to mention the parcels just to its north and east.

This is downtown. Why should there be a building heighth limit? Makes even less sense when you see that its across the street from the regions tallest tower.

Bellaboo
08-23-2012, 02:10 PM
This is downtown. Why should there be a building heighth limit? Makes even less sense when you see that its across the street from the regions tallest tower.

I think he's talking about demolition of Preftakes properties......

Pete
08-23-2012, 02:11 PM
Development (especially on a large scale) is far more complex than most people understand.

And ESPECIALY when you are dealing with downtown projects and tons of smaller properties, older buildings and a million other challenges.


I'm as bad as anyone about wanting to see things get done, but I've been around commercial real estate enough to understand the massive complexities that enter into even what appear to be relatively straight-forward projects.

I can also assure you that developers by nature are get-things-done people. They live to build and see things finished. This is very different than investors or speculators who often buy and sit on buildings... But those who have a track record of finishing developments are a rare breed and are driven by the desire to make things happen.

Teo9969
08-23-2012, 02:15 PM
http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/precor6.jpg

If he doesn't own parcel 62 (and I'm not sure whether or not he even could), and wouldn't level 1-3, then it would seem that a contiguous development would be unrealistic.

However, if he does choose to level all but 1 N. Hudson, then I would think he would have a very distinct purpose for them. Why would he level 17 N. Hudson though?

metro
08-23-2012, 02:20 PM
This is downtown. Why should there be a building heighth limit? Makes even less sense when you see that its across the street from the regions tallest tower.


If you re-read his post, he was talking for demolition, not construction.

soonerguru
08-23-2012, 05:01 PM
And ESPECIALY when you are dealing with downtown projects and tons of smaller properties, older buildings and a million other challenges.


I'm as bad as anyone about wanting to see things get done, but I've been around commercial real estate enough to understand the massive complexities that enter into even what appear to be relatively straight-forward projects.

I can also assure you that developers by nature are get-things-done people. They live to build and see things finished. This is very different than investors or speculators who often buy and sit on buildings... But those who have a track record of finishing developments are a rare breed and are driven by the desire to make things happen.

Good point. Question: what has Preftakes completed? I know he did the Garage Lofts and a couple of things in Auto Alley, if I remember correctly. Maybe a bldg. or two in Bricktown. Not dogging the guy, but he seems to have done a lot more "buy and sit" than "get things done" unless I'm overlooking something.

Urbanized
08-23-2012, 06:21 PM
http://precorruffin.com/projects

I believe Nick also has had quite a few investments in Iowa, where he has lived previously. I think in the past he has shifted his focus back and forth between the two markets during times when he felt more strongly about the development environment in one place or the other, just as he has shifted focus here back and forth between downtown and the suburbs as good opportunities arose. He is one of the original urban pioneers, investing in downtown when others laughed at him. The Garage Lofts were developed in '95, and other developers believed it was complete folly. He also has lived in the inner city for years.

Nick has a banking background, is very deliberate in his decision making process, and doesn't make many moves without thorough analysis. Though Nick is a strong personality, the impression I have gotten in conversations with him (I had quite a bit of business and a fair bit of social interaction with him a number of years ago and consider him a friend - meaning I'm always happy to run into him and he SEEMS happy to see me LOL) is that I don't believe he makes any business decisions based on emotion but rather cold analysis. Though I don't suppose I worked closely enough with him to consider him a mentor, some of the discussions we had stuck with me enough that I feel they strongly helped shape many of my ideas about commercial real estate, development, and retail location.

He's a wise individual and we're lucky to have him on the development scene here. Much of the same can be said about his business partner in many of his ventures, Mark Ruffin. If those guys move on a project it WILL be completed, and it WILL work.

bombermwc
08-24-2012, 07:38 AM
It's increasingly difficult for me to look at this block and not think that a demo job is coming in the future. I can't think of any reason why someone would purposely try to buy up an entire block, other than to redevelop it into something else. It would be incredibly odd to buy it just to say you own that block rather than spreading your investments around to various plots downtown, or for that matter, around town. With a focus that narrow, there's obviously a plan in the works.

For the life of me, I cannot fathom any development plan that would go here though. It's an incredible expense if you plan to demo it all to build a highrise. There are much cheaper blocks in the area that have far less "height" to them already and would cost significantly less to take down to the ground IF that was your plan. So i'm somewhat sceptical on the demo at the same time. It's highly confusing and a bit frustrating. With what, 1 or 2 buildings left, the whole thing would be done. And we may find some deal in the works with the city building too.

I agree with you here that the city's building should not be allowed to be torn down. Whatever the plans are, that structure MUST stay intact.

BoulderSooner
08-24-2012, 08:02 AM
If he doesn't own parcel 62 (and I'm not sure whether or not he even could), and wouldn't level 1-3, then it would seem that a contiguous development would be unrealistic.

However, if he does choose to level all but 1 N. Hudson, then I would think he would have a very distinct purpose for them. Why would he level 17 N. Hudson though?

62 and 44 are city parking ... and i'm sure they would sell both if they were granted parking rights in whatever he builds on the site ..

Snowman
08-24-2012, 08:34 AM
62 and 44 are city parking ... and i'm sure they would sell both if they were granted parking rights in whatever he builds on the site ..

I think they would go with it especially if a larger TIF funded parking structure were to go in with a mid to high rise building

Bellaboo
08-24-2012, 09:13 AM
I think they would go with it especially if a larger TIF funded parking structure were to go in with a mid to high rise building

They are building a large parking structure just to the north accross the street, so parking may not be an issue here.

Pete
08-24-2012, 09:15 AM
AND if Devon is involved as has been rumored, they have a massive parking garage directly across the street.

They could even build a skybridge across Hudson for direct connectivity.

Just the facts
08-24-2012, 09:45 AM
They could even build a skybridge across Hudson for direct connectivity.

I hope not - people need to be on the street, not elevated 30 feet above it. For local businesses to succed they need to have a steady supply of customer at all hours of the day, otherwise they simpy serve a single primary customer base and when that group of people leave, the business closes for the day.

OKCisOK4me
08-24-2012, 09:48 AM
I hope not - people need to be on the street, not elevated 30 feet above it.

Until someone gets hit by a driver that's still distracted by how they survived that roundabout...

Just the facts
08-24-2012, 09:48 AM
Until someone gets hit by a driver that's still distracted by how they survived that roundabout...

okay - sidewalk.

SharkSandwich
08-24-2012, 10:10 AM
AND if Devon is involved as has been rumored, they have a massive parking garage directly across the street.

They could even build a skybridge across Hudson for direct connectivity.

The Devon garage is already almost full.

BoulderSooner
08-24-2012, 11:44 AM
AND if Devon is involved as has been rumored, they have a massive parking garage directly across the street.

They could even build a skybridge across Hudson for direct connectivity.

if devon is part of a new building .. i would bet that they will have a sky bridge ....

OKCisOK4me
08-24-2012, 12:48 PM
okay - sidewalk.

Sarcasm - s a r c a s m

Snowman
08-24-2012, 06:53 PM
I hope not - people need to be on the street, not elevated 30 feet above it. For local businesses to succed they need to have a steady supply of customer at all hours of the day, otherwise they simpy serve a single primary customer base and when that group of people leave, the business closes for the day.

If people live in the area and know it is there they, generally find a way. Getting residential in the area will matter more than if how common skybridges are.

Just the facts
08-24-2012, 08:08 PM
Elevated roads are to cars as skybridges are to pedestrains. If you don't go by the front door you can't go in. I am reminded of how Underground Atlanta got its start.

Just the facts
08-24-2012, 08:10 PM
Sarcasm - s a r c a s m

Yes, sarcasm is my native tongue. :)

Spartan
08-25-2012, 09:14 AM
It's increasingly difficult for me to look at this block and not think that a demo job is coming in the future. I can't think of any reason why someone would purposely try to buy up an entire block, other than to redevelop it into something else. It would be incredibly odd to buy it just to say you own that block rather than spreading your investments around to various plots downtown, or for that matter, around town. With a focus that narrow, there's obviously a plan in the works.

For the life of me, I cannot fathom any development plan that would go here though. It's an incredible expense if you plan to demo it all to build a highrise. There are much cheaper blocks in the area that have far less "height" to them already and would cost significantly less to take down to the ground IF that was your plan. So i'm somewhat sceptical on the demo at the same time. It's highly confusing and a bit frustrating. With what, 1 or 2 buildings left, the whole thing would be done. And we may find some deal in the works with the city building too.

I agree with you here that the city's building should not be allowed to be torn down. Whatever the plans are, that structure MUST stay intact.

I appreciate your appreciation for the 420 bldg...but I think you're overlooking the value of several old blogs in a way that Preftakes shouldn't considering how historic properties have been kind to his investment portfolio...

I concede we may be looking at more demo than I'd like, but nowhere near as much as 'just save 420' my god...which isn't even the tallest property on the block I believe.

metro
08-25-2012, 10:19 AM
Who cares about tallest vs. most historic or architecturally pleasing

BoulderSooner
08-27-2012, 07:48 AM
Elevated roads are to cars as skybridges are to pedestrains. If you don't go by the front door you can't go in. I am reminded of how Underground Atlanta got its start.

very much disagree .... if there is a elevated road the car .. MUST use that to go from point A to B .... a skybridge is just an option to get across the street ..

in good weather lots of people will walk across the street ..... if it is raining/110/20 people may use the skybridge

Just the facts
08-27-2012, 08:15 AM
A shopping mall would never make a walkway that doesn't go by store fronts.

bombermwc
08-27-2012, 08:20 AM
Who cares about tallest vs. most historic or architecturally pleasing


I would agree. I would say that most of the tall structures on that block are pretty much blank brick faced boring buildings. Hell one of them has a sun room slapped on the top on two sides. I can't say that's an architecturally pleasing element. I always thought it looks like someone robbed the extra seating from a Wendy's and slapped it on the top.

metro
08-27-2012, 09:12 AM
I would agree. I would say that most of the tall structures on that block are pretty much blank brick faced boring buildings. Hell one of them has a sun room slapped on the top on two sides. I can't say that's an architecturally pleasing element. I always thought it looks like someone robbed the extra seating from a Wendy's and slapped it on the top.

Bomber, the former Hotel Black is a historic structure IMO, but the glass greenhouse is a former miniature golf place added to the top as an addition. I'd love to see it come back as a hotel, with ground level retail.

BoulderSooner
08-27-2012, 10:47 AM
A shopping mall would never make a walkway that doesn't go by store fronts.

shopping malls are there to help stores in the shopping mall sell stuff ..

buildings downtown have all kinds of purposes

Teo9969
08-27-2012, 10:57 AM
i would agree. I would say that most of the tall structures on that block are pretty much blank brick faced boring buildings. Hell one of them has a sun room slapped on the top on two sides. I can't say that's an architecturally pleasing element. I always thought it looks like someone robbed the extra seating from a wendy's and slapped it on the top.

bahahaha!!!!

Teo9969
08-27-2012, 11:03 AM
JTF,

Boulder's right on this.

1. The average pedestrian doesn't have access to most skywalks because they don't have business in one or both buildings.

2. The average worker using the skywalk is only going to use it if it gets them to their destination faster or drier.

3. The average worker is not going to be making use of any store front that is a stones throw away from their business on an impulse basis.

Just the facts
08-27-2012, 09:25 PM
I think it was Jeff Speck that said until downtowns start having the same marketing effort shopping malls have, the shopping mall is going to keep attracting the retailers - or something to that effect. Of course, it could have also been Andres Duany or Elizabeth Plater-Zyberk that said it. Either way, I believe it. So downtown OKC can keep separating pedestrians from storefronts and hope for a different outcome, or we can try putting people on the same vertical level as the front door and see if that works. Personally, I have stopped in places because I happen to see someone I knew standing in line.

It is the opportuinity for a chance encounter that makes urban living unique. I'll have to check the archives to see where I heard that.

Just the facts
08-27-2012, 09:39 PM
Check out the origin of Underground Atlanta (which at one time was above ground).

http://underground-atlanta.com/about-us/history-of-underground.html

mcca7596
08-27-2012, 10:05 PM
It is the opportuinity for a chance encounter that makes urban living unique. I'll have to check the archives to see where I heard that.

I think Jane Jacobs most famously said things along that line.

Skyline
08-27-2012, 10:25 PM
Anyone seen a study done on the subject of skybridges? Would be interested in reading one. Personally, I feel that skybridges are necessarily only when the pedestrian context below has failed. A well designed urban street doesn't require pedestrian shortcuts - it is one by nature.

I don't recall seeing a bunch of these bridges in places where "shortcuts" could be seen as immensely valuable like Manhattan. People simply use the crosswalk.

Minneapolis comes to mind. One of the largest skybridge systems in the U.S.

It is interesting that Okc has the skybridges and underground tunnels. At least we should have stuck with one or the other. lol.

BoulderSooner
08-28-2012, 07:52 AM
Anyone seen a study done on the subject of skybridges? Would be interested in reading one. Personally, I feel that skybridges are necessarily only when the pedestrian context below has failed. A well designed urban street doesn't require pedestrian shortcuts - it is one by nature.

I don't recall seeing a bunch of these bridges in places where "shortcuts" could be seen as immensely valuable like Manhattan. People simply use the crosswalk.

so how do the crosswalks .. keep you dry or warm or cool??

Just the facts
09-06-2012, 09:46 AM
While in Philly during the winter the vents along sidewalk were very warm and when it rained I walked under the canopies of all the retail outlets. If I was cold I walked on the sunny side of the street and if I was hot I walked on the shaded side of the street.

bombermwc
09-07-2012, 07:38 AM
There are other benefits to skybridges and tunnels besides just walking across the street. If you are carting equipment, or a lot of boxes of stuff between buildings, there's an obvious advantage to not going outside...up and down curb ramps. You've also got a fairly busy thuroughfair right there. They do make sense in some situations. I dont feel like there's any reason to put them on every building to connect all of downtown or anything though.

In order for them to make sense, you really need to have a BUSINESS reason for pedestrian traffic to need to flow between the buildings on a regular basis. Just crossing to connect to get somewhere for lunch doesn't cut it. I'm sure if you went back far enough, you'd see a connection between most of the structures with a skybridge. The underground is a whole other animal....but also a MUCH more expensive one. I think we've seen how they're very prone to falling by the wayside and getting forgotten. Out of sight, out of mind. And with limited commercial presense in it, it's hard to keep it up until it gets so bad the city has to coordinate the revitalization.

So having said all that, unless you see some structures put in that are for energy companies directly related to Devon, ie drilling, fracing, etc. then it really wouldn't make a lot of sense to connect to the tower...at least in my humble opinion.

SharkSandwich
09-17-2012, 08:57 AM
Here's a more current aerial (Pretakes properties shown in yellow):

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/precor6.jpg

This weekend I heard from a solid source that a local architectural firm is working on a medical clinic for Devon. The source did not know exactly where it would be, but he said they are still evaluating whether to build a new structure or renovate an existing one.

My instincts say it will replace a demolished Carpenter Square.

Spartan
09-18-2012, 01:48 PM
This weekend I heard from a solid source that a local architectural firm is working on a medical clinic for Devon. The source did not know exactly where it would be, but he said they are still evaluating whether to build a new structure or renovate an existing one.

My instincts say it will replace a demolished Carpenter Square.

I believe you are right.

metro
09-18-2012, 10:30 PM
I believe you are right.

Why is that? Do you have evidence other than a gut feeling?

catch22
09-24-2012, 05:58 PM
Accela Citizen Access (http://okc.gov/Access/Cap/CapDetail.aspx?Module=Permits&TabName=Permits&capID1=12BRE&capID2=00000&capID3=07560&agencyCode=OKC&IsToShowInspection=)

Building permit for "Dental Depot". Address says 420 W MAIN ST UNIT 8TH FLR.

The parcel information says current use is Vacant land and this will be new 2 story construction?

I'm a little confused, but Google maps places the address on the Preftakes block.

Pete
09-24-2012, 06:00 PM
Accela Citizen Access (http://okc.gov/Access/Cap/CapDetail.aspx?Module=Permits&TabName=Permits&capID1=12BRE&capID2=00000&capID3=07560&agencyCode=OKC&IsToShowInspection=)

Building permit for "Dental Depot". Address says 420 W MAIN ST UNIT 8TH FLR.

The parcel information says current use is Vacant land and this will be new 2 story construction?

I'm a little confused, but Google maps places the address on the Preftakes block.


I called the architect that filed this permit and he said the on-line information is a typo.

This is for a Dental Depot at NW 145th & Penn.

420 W. Main, 8th floor is the city permit office, which somehow got entered as the project location.

catch22
09-24-2012, 06:01 PM
I called the architect that filed this permit and he said the on-line information is a typo.

This is for a Dental Depot at NW 145th & Penn.

420 W. Main, 8th floor is the city permit office, which somehow got entered as the project location.

Ah ok! Phew! Was hoping the pent up excitement for this block wasn't a 2 story dental office all along!

CuatrodeMayo
09-25-2012, 12:28 AM
I called the architect that filed this permit and he said the on-line information is a typo.

I'll bet he got a kick out of that phone call...

Pete
09-25-2012, 08:52 AM
I'll bet he got a kick out of that phone call...

He was very nice about it and was happy to straighten things out.


I often call when I see an interesting permit and about half the time the architect or engineer on the application won't even talk to me.

Just recently I requested more information from The Village about the Love's new corporate HQ building and you would have thought I was asking to see their private medical records. I reminded them it's all public record and I still couldn't get anyone to answer a direct and simple request.

Also, I recently went up to the City permit office and asked to see some construction drawings (again part of public record) and the lady behind the counter freaked out when I started to take pictures. She insisted I pay them to make copies and it took me forever and the intervention of her boss before she understood it was completely fine and much more expedient for everyone involved.

It's funny how many people work with public domain information every day that have simply never been approached for it and how suspicious they become.

Pete
09-25-2012, 09:34 AM
BTW, the group that was most suspicious and even obstructionist in my requests was the old OCURA.

For a while, they were the only City agency that never put out their agendas and minutes in electronic form (this was just a year ago!) and when I'd call and ask for the minutes, they seemed very put out and even unsure how to go about it. They told me the could only send the minutes after they were officially approved, which meant you had to wait until after the NEXT meeting for them to even finish them and physically put them in the mail. They charged a fair amount for this and the end result is that you could only see what had happened about 6 weeks after the fact -- and that's only if they met every month.

Some here may remember that I continued to stay on them and used to scan the minutes and post them on OKCTalk.


It was clear to me that their entire setup was to discourage and avoid public input and interaction. Thank goodness their organization has been completely changed and their operations are now pretty transparent.

kevinpate
09-26-2012, 07:41 AM
Never dealt with OCURA in my life. All the same, a decision to not provide minutes of a meeting prior to the minutes actually being approved doesn't strike me as obstructionist. Not much of anything ever goes out someone's door in draft form, and a draft is all the unapproved minutes are.

Praedura
09-26-2012, 03:54 PM
The Preftakes area is not the most lovely cityscape at the moment, especially from this view:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8460/8027209661_e8a0a9d067_c_d.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/williamhider/8027209661/in/set-72157631629471275)

But perhaps this will all change radically in the near future?

Pete
10-12-2012, 09:45 AM
Based on what I've been hearing, I'm beginning to think we are going to see a new Devon office building on this block and it may be announced before the end of the year.

So, making that assumption, how would you like to see this block redeveloped?

Most likely, blocks 30-38 will be for an approximately 40-story tower with retail on the bottom. The city offices (25-29) aren't going anywhere but I could see where Devon could acquire 44 & 62 from them as long as they provide parking.

What about the historic auto hotel (39-41)? Seems like that would be difficult to integrate into a modern complex.

I think everyone would like to see the old bus station renovated into a diner of some sort (12-17) and One Hudson (1-3) likely won't be touched, but what about the rest of the block?

It would seem they could spruce up the one corner property at Walker & Main and leave Coney Island and the pizza place alone.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/precor6.jpg

Just the facts
10-12-2012, 09:53 AM
The only thing I don't want to see is landscaping between the sidewalk and the building. City zoning requires a certain percentage to be adjacent to the sidewalk and it should be enforced - with gusto. If I had to pick a second thing I don't want to see - a glass curtain wall.

I have no doubt I will be disappointed on both.

Bellaboo
10-12-2012, 10:03 AM
Todays DOK said they currently have 1,700 employees downtown. How many parking spaces does their new 10 story garage have ? They may not need much parking if their new garage is adequate for both buildings. They could easily put a sky bridge from their Garden Building or parking garage over to the new tower.

Pete
10-12-2012, 10:20 AM
I've been told that their office space is almost full... Just a few cubes available per floor and they expect to fill most those soon, as they have over 50 open positions for OKC. They also need space for their interns.

Similarly, the garage seems to be nearing capacity as well.

If they build on this block I'm sure they will put a skybridge over Hudson, as they went to great lengths to tie their existing complex to Oklahoma Tower and the rest of the Underground system by building an elevated walkway to the City City East Garage and then a climate controlled walkway through the 3rd level of that structure. In fact, that should almost be complete, if not already.

Just the facts
10-12-2012, 10:31 AM
Todays DOK said they currently have 1,700 employees downtown. How many parking spaces does their new 10 story garage have ? They may not need much parking if their new garage is adequate for both buildings. They could easily put a sky bridge from their Garden Building or parking garage over to the new tower.

ooops - make that 3 things I don't want to see.

3) More skybridges.