I can see something like that happening...

How soon do you see something like that happening?

it never hurts to ask

Actually, keeping the facade, at least of the Carpenter Square building, was the main point I was trying to make. Granted, the actual structure of the building is probably useless, but the facade is historic. Even it is no more than an just memory out of the past, such small gestures are what binds a city's past with it's future, thereby creating a rich urban fabric. Again, I have nothing against the facade being de-constructed and then being re-used once a new super-structure is in place, but doing away with it altogether, IMHO, is not progress. With the right architect and a good vision, this could be a stunning corner building, blending both modern and historic.

My words exactly.

Actually, keeping the facade, at least of the Carpenter Square building, was the main point I was trying to make. Granted, the actual structure of the building is probably useless, but the facade is historic. Even it is no more than an just memory out of the past, such small gestures are what binds a city's past with it's future, thereby creating a rich urban fabric. Again, I have nothing against the facade being de-constructed and then being re-used once a new super-structure is in place, but doing away with it altogether, IMHO, is not progress. With the right architect and a good vision, this could be a stunning corner building, blending both modern and historic.

It's good to dream and make the points, but I'd be surprised if it happens. There just doesn't seem to be that attitude amongst developers here. In the grand scheme of things it will be weird to me to see anything on that block leveled when there is so much empty space directly to the southwest and even south of Stage Center. I would just love to see that massive surface lot developed first. It would help create more flow into Film Row from the CBD and would make Preftakes block a great space for retail and restaurants as it would be sandwiched in between Devon and some other major development on this lot. Then all we get is a net gain in development instead of once again tearing stuff down when there's blank space sitting literally across the street.

The best that we can hope for is they reuse the white tiles -- and that's really all they are -- from the Carpenter Square facade elsewhere.

Can't remember if I posted this once already. Was looking for any new photos of the old courthouse. Noticed it in the background of the bus station. It helps get a sense of where it was in relation to something that's still there.....for now.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Union%20Bus%20Station/unionbusstation2.jpg
1947

It's good to dream and make the points, but I'd be surprised if it happens. There just doesn't seem to be that attitude amongst developers here. In the grand scheme of things it will be weird to me to see anything on that block leveled when there is so much empty space directly to the southwest and even south of Stage Center. I would just love to see that massive surface lot developed first. It would help create more flow into Film Row from the CBD and would make Preftakes block a great space for retail and restaurants as it would be sandwiched in between Devon and some other major development on this lot. Then all we get is a net gain in development instead of once again tearing stuff down when there's blank space sitting literally across the street.

I agree with this post. It seems that the insiders have hinted that a new tower will be in the area, but it seems more logical to build on the open surface lots near stage center (or even on sc) than to deal with the headache of incorporating those older structures.

Can't remember if I posted this once already. Was looking for any new photos of the old courthouse. Noticed it in the background of the bus station. It helps get a sense of where it was in relation to something that's still there.....for now.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Union%20Bus%20Station/unionbusstation2.jpg
1947

Is that the original Carnegie Library in the background of that photo?

Oh how I weep for the OKC of old...

That's the old county courthouse.

Ah ha! So that is looking west, Carnegie was well north of the Union Bus Station.

This comment goes against the grain of what I usually say, but seeing that photo makes me wonder what was at the Bus Station's location before it was built, and also if there was an uproar about the modern structure being built at the time.

To redeem myself though, it just hurts to think that that beautiful old courthouse was replaced by a truly ugly parking garage (if that is indeed the same site). I dare anyone to challenge me that garage is NOT ugly!!

...

Is that the original Carnegie Library in the background of that photo?


Can't remember if I posted this once already. Was looking for any new photos of the old courthouse. Noticed it in the background of the bus station.

I moved a ton of off-topic posts to the General Urban Development thread.

Please keep this about the block owned predominantly by Nick Preftakes.

This is a great example of how the Preftakes block can incorporate the old with the new, with minimal razing of older structures. Below is a pic of BG Group Place in Houston, which sits right next to a historical building:

https://www.p4sc.org/sites/default/files/BG%20Group%20Place_Twilight%5B1%5D.jpg

I was skimming and you got me all excited for a second! :doh:

But I agree. They can definitely work around the historic structures.

I was skimming and you got me all excited for a second!

Same happened to me as well, I didn't read anything I just stared at the picture trying to catch my breath then I seen the word Houston and looked at the ground like an abused puppy.

February 19 2012

http://www.flickr.com/photos/williamhider/sets/72157629100876064/

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February 25 2012

http://www.flickr.com/photos/williamhider/sets/72157629464262323/

Me and Steve had lunch on the 25th. Bill, the owner of Coney Island, always asks ever more desperately when the city will get Main St fixed in front of his store.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7187/6787917118_5ff426fc99_b.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7050/6787917280_7c5bebcbab_b.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7198/6787917648_88629e8d04_b.jpg
This was the reaction he gave when Steve had to tell him the city is dragging their feet and has not touched anything in weeks. He says he doesn't believe anything the city says anymore. Steve promises to keep pressuring the city to take care of it quickly.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7045/6787917888_3a27dc8db1_b.jpg

Thanks Will for capturing this!

That guys a legend....

I hope his store survives all this construction.. You know that has to put a dent in his pocket.

I was in the main st. store once and some girl ( my daughter) asked for a dog with mayonase! His reaction was priceless.

Good grief, it takes the city forever to redo these P180 streets!

One of the worst things about their budget meltdown is that if and when they get around to do the remainder of the streets it's just going to be another long, drawn inconvenience to the businesses. They were supposed to be completely done by next year and now that's not going to happen for a very long time.

I know construction gets old for drivers but some of these businesses are almost being ruined by them going months over schedule on every street they tear up.

Good grief, it takes the city forever to redo these P180 streets!

One of the worst things about their budget meltdown is that if and when they get around to do the remainder of the streets it's just going to be another long, drawn inconvenience to the businesses. They were supposed to be completely done by next year and now that's not going to happen for a very long time.

I know construction gets old for drivers but some of these businesses are almost being ruined by them going months over schedule on every street they tear up.

Pete - Mark Beffort said last week that NO P180 construction elements were being shelved, but many were done more quickly than anticipated, virtually over-spending the receipt of funds allocated for the project. I asked a downtown banker friend and he corroborated Mark's statement. Sorry for being out of the loop on this, but is that a fair characterization?

Good grief, it takes the city forever to redo these P180 streets!

One of the worst things about their budget meltdown is that if and when they get around to do the remainder of the streets it's just going to be another long, drawn inconvenience to the businesses. They were supposed to be completely done by next year and now that's not going to happen for a very long time.

I know construction gets old for drivers but some of these businesses are almost being ruined by them going months over schedule on every street they tear up.

I am personally becoming convinced that there is actually some sort of collusion between Devon and the City to succeed in running these poor folks out of business, as that will only make it easier to bring out the wrecking ball when it comes time for that. Perhaps, after all, that is the "agreement" that Jim Couch keeps referring to (but refusing to show) between Devon and City Hall. And what I can't believe even further is that nobody else is outraged about the wholesale historic demolition that downtown has now truly descended into.

All in the name of progress! Ha.

I am personally becoming convinced that there is actually some sort of collusion between Devon and the City to succeed in running these poor folks out of business, as that will only make it easier to bring out the wrecking ball when it comes time for that. Perhaps, after all, that is the "agreement" that Jim Couch keeps referring to (but refusing to show) between Devon and City Hall. And what I can't believe even further is that nobody else is outraged about the wholesale historic demolition that downtown has now truly descended into.

All in the name of progress! Ha.

I can believe in this as well. Shady deals always...

February 19 2012

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7050/6927545893_4a9bd8b6c1_b.jpg

This photo is a great one for illustrating something that has bothered me in the discussion regarding the former CST building. I've heard people say "oh, I know it has that cool tile front, but you know that tile isn't even historic, right? It was added in the '80s (or whenever)."

Those statements are only PARTIALLY true. The non-historic tile that was added in the relatively recent part of the building's history are the small black-and-white checkerboard mosaic tiles in the old window openings. The actual facade of the building is covered with glazed terra cotta tiles that ARE original to the building. That's really a lovely and unusual (to OKC) facade on that structure, and best appreciated up close. It would be a real shame to see that one come down.

Those tiles could be reused elsewhere. Otherwise, that building is just a one-story square on a very prominent intersection.

I'm almost certain that building and those directly west are going to give way to a large tower project.

Pete - Mark Beffort said last week that NO P180 construction elements were being shelved, but many were done more quickly than anticipated, virtually over-spending the receipt of funds allocated for the project. I asked a downtown banker friend and he corroborated Mark's statement. Sorry for being out of the loop on this, but is that a fair characterization?

No.

They have basically spent/obligated all the money in their budget and will only be able to complete 60% of what was promised.

They keep saying they will complete the rest of it but the only way to make that happen is to use a ton of extra tax dollars, and they haven't even identified where those would come from, never mind that even if they did get more money it would just be diverting from other needs.

Those tiles could be reused elsewhere. Otherwise, that building is just a one-story square on a very prominent intersection.

I'm almost certain that building and those directly west are going to give way to a large tower project.
I'm always a vocal proponent of "higher and better use." Without question a project can emerge that would justify replacing that building. But even if I am a fan of the new project it doesn't mean that I can't be bummed to see the older building demolished.

But tearing it down on spec, or for surface parking (and yes, I know that is not being discussed at this juncture)? That would be reprehensible, but also unfortunately par for the course.

I think the only way they could get permission to tear down that structure and those next to it is with a firm, specific plan to build something of significance. And even then, they will be in for a fight.

I am personally becoming convinced that there is actually some sort of collusion between Devon and the City to succeed in running these poor folks out of business, as that will only make it easier to bring out the wrecking ball when it comes time for that. Perhaps, after all, that is the "agreement" that Jim Couch keeps referring to (but refusing to show) between Devon and City Hall. And what I can't believe even further is that nobody else is outraged about the wholesale historic demolition that downtown has now truly descended into.

All in the name of progress! Ha.

http://skepticalteacher.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/conspiracy.jpg

Ahhh...we are back to familiar territory..the grand conspiracies. Lol

Pete - Mark Beffort said last week that NO P180 construction elements were being shelved, but many were done more quickly than anticipated, virtually over-spending the receipt of funds allocated for the project. I asked a downtown banker friend and he corroborated Mark's statement. Sorry for being out of the loop on this, but is that a fair characterization?

OKC TALKER, not sure in what forum Beffort said that, or if this is a proper interpretation of what he said. But items WERE CUT from Project 180. To say otherwise, and to say some items were done "more quickly than anticipated..." simply isn't true.

maybe new TIF dollars from the next high rise project can me used to complete P180

It's silly to think Devon would be conspiring with the city to intentionally delay road construction.

The city is just completely overwhelmed with various projects, which is troubling considering the bulk of MAPS3 hasn't even started yet. They also seem to be bad at estimating time and budgets, which is equally troubling.

... seem to be bad at estimating time and budgets, which is equally troubling.

Understatement of the year. You're truly a kind man.

http://skepticalteacher.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/conspiracy.jpg

If you think it's conspiratorial to say that, you are the most clueless person in OKC. And you don't know your history.

I truly believe that these people calling the shots right now think that I.M. Pei was a big success, and I don't think any of them care about the old Critereon or Majestic or Midwest or the countless historic treasures that were raised in the name of progress. They gutted Main Street east of Hudson, now they're coming across Hudson to gut Main when in all directions there are plenty of vacant lots left over from the first time we attempted this kind of wholesale urban renewal and historic demolition.

I seriously doubt ANYONE believes the Pei plan was a success.

It should also be no surprise that the closer in areas would be first choice to build on.

It is time for people to step up and actually rebuild and re-use these older structures. Keep in mind that we are asking them to take an economic hit and to get less revenue than they could get. Most businesses do not choose to do that. The structures there have very limited opportunities to create cash flow and income, or at least as compared to a 40 story building. So, we need some selfless white knights with substantial money and want no say in the city or area functioning or politics (don't want to be part of a conspiracy). Maybe we on this board can identify who those people might be. It will take more than philosophies and hopes...it takes money. So, let's hope.

If you think it's conspiratorial to say that, you are the most clueless person in OKC. And you don't know your history.

I truly believe that these people calling the shots right now think that I.M. Pei was a big success, and I don't think any of them care about the old Critereon or Majestic or Midwest or the countless historic treasures that were raised in the name of progress. They gutted Main Street east of Hudson, now they're coming across Hudson to gut Main when in all directions there are plenty of vacant lots left over from the first time we attempted this kind of wholesale urban renewal and historic demolition.

If you truly believe that, then you are the most clueless person in OKC. (Wait, you don't even live in OKC, do you?)

I seriously doubt ANYONE believes the Pei plan was a success.

It should also be no surprise that the closer in areas would be first choice to build on.

It is time for people to step up and actually rebuild and re-use these older structures. Keep in mind that we are asking them to take an economic hit and to get less revenue than they could get. Most businesses do not choose to do that. The structures there have very limited opportunities to create cash flow and income, or at least as compared to a 40 story building. So, we need some selfless white knights with substantial money and want no say in the city or area functioning or politics (don't want to be part of a conspiracy). Maybe we on this board can identify who those people might be. It will take more than philosophies and hopes...it takes money. So, let's hope.

I'm sorry, but the economics for a 40 story building on every street corner in OKC just don't pan out. So that isn't exactly a valid argument in terms of needed cash flow to justify a development expenditure in OKC. That's why we HAVE focused more on historic preservation typically.

I'm sorry, but the economics for a 40 story building on every street corner in OKC just don't pan out. So that isn't exactly a valid argument in terms of needed cash flow to justify a development expenditure in OKC. That's why we HAVE focused more on historic preservation typically.

If this is THE corner they want to build on, then yes it is a valid argument. Not every location is of equal value and in equal demand.

i don't really feel like the Preftakes corner is going to pan out for a tower either. The demo costs would make doing anything there FAR more expensive than several of the other options downtown. There are plenty places (surface lots or otherwise) that have a good sized footprint available for vertical growth. In order to build on the Preftakes land, just look at what all would have to come down first. And talk about NOT being part of the central core. It something is built there, then it's going to be an island in and of itself. It may not seem like a huge distance since it's across from Devon, but i challenge you to take a look and see what sort of negative space that would create when you look downtown from somewhere like the south/north.

i don't really feel like the Preftakes corner is going to pan out for a tower either. The demo costs would make doing anything there FAR more expensive than several of the other options downtown. There are plenty places (surface lots or otherwise) that have a good sized footprint available for vertical growth. In order to build on the Preftakes land, just look at what all would have to come down first. And talk about NOT being part of the central core. It something is built there, then it's going to be an island in and of itself. It may not seem like a huge distance since it's across from Devon, but i challenge you to take a look and see what sort of negative space that would create when you look downtown from somewhere like the south/north.
To a multi-national corporation, what's an extra million dollars on a multi-HUNDRED million dollar tower? Answer: NOTHING. If Nick is building this proposed tower for a "Mystery Corporation Tower", I'm sure LOCATION is equally important and worth something. If I'm building a $100+ MILLION tower or much more, I'd want to be across from the city's nicest building too, and not a vacant lot.

+1

To a multi-national corporation, what's an extra million dollars on a multi-HUNDRED million dollar tower? Answer: NOTHING. If Nick is building this proposed tower for a "Mystery Corporation Tower", I'm sure LOCATION is equally important and worth something. If I'm building a $100+ MILLION tower or much more, I'd want to be across from the city's nicest building too, and not a vacant lot.

this ... and i will add that it is very possible that the new tower would have a sky bridge connecting it to the new "public space in the devon garden wing .. and thus the rest of down town ....

and that sight is also very close to the MGB

Not a fan of the sky bridge idea. We need more foot traffic on street level. Two steps forward, one step back.

If this is THE corner they want to build on, then yes it is a valid argument. Not every location is of equal value and in equal demand.

Well, here's the problem, is that our city planning is not grounded in reality. Do we base our intentions on what IS or would COULD be? Here you've switched your argument from what IS (arguing against the economics of preserving what exists there now) and now you've switched your argument to COULD be, with the operative point being that this is THE corner they want. I think we have to focus more on reality, and show more concern for what IS, including what IS good, and what IS bad--and I think we come up with a lot better development sites that way.

This is also beginning to mirror the convention center site location process. Those consultants only considered what is the best site for a convention center, and indeed, they went out and found the best site--for anything. They never considered what was the best development for that site, however. Same thing here, compounded by basing our focus on visions rather than reality.

Instead of demanding the best site for a new tower and for a new convention center, why has nobody considered where those things would instead fit in best with the existing scheme and set-up downtown? What I mean is to plan downtown from a general perspective, rather than from the perspective of a convention center or a new tower. As it is right now, I feel like these planning processes are happening in a vacuum that is arguably oblivious to anything other than their tower, or their convention center. That's dangerous.

I understand what you are saying Spartan, but this is a commercial venture, not a city planning venture. And it is subject to the desires and judgement of those who have the money to do something with it, within the parameters of what the jurisdiction allows. All I am saying is that from a pure economic standpoint, more revenue can be generated from a new tall office building than from what is currently there. What you suggest is that the city dictate what goes where and that we then trust the judgement of the bureaucrats over the judgement of the marketplace. What I am saying is that there needs to be moneyed people/companies that have as their objective the preservation of the buildings and the (though somewhat objective) improvement of the city over their own financial considerations. That is asking a lot. What is preservation worth to a company? We have no real financial incentives to save the buildings which offset the loss of revenue. We just want people to automatically forego profit for the greater good of the city...and that rarely happens.

The cc is a different matter. The problem is, we don't know what would go on that site and that it would be any better than a cc. There are a lot of assumptions about an ideal development, but we have not seen evidence that there were any plans for anything there or anyone offering an alternative development there now.

In an academic sense, I agree with you. In reality, it is difficult to force what you suggest.

What you suggest is that the city dictate what goes where and that we then trust the judgement of the bureaucrats over the judgement of the marketplace.

What I am actually suggesting is that we enforce the city codes that are supposed to protect historic structures, prevent corporate plazas, and so forth. We could stand to lose our designation as a Certified Local Government if we allow for the clear precedent of historic demolition (which, if these buildings go, there's no question that OKC isn't valuing HP and is back in demo mode, picking up right where we left off in the 70s).

We became a CLG by saying that we would enact certain codes and then enforce them, including specifically HP. By being a CLG, this is one of the things that benefits OKC (especially in competitive processes) when we apply for federal and state funds for projects. For example, the East Bricktown hotel/housing project, which is going to need incentive funding from a grant.

So yes, I am proposing the radical notion that city planning take precedence over commercial ventures. Developers have their concerns, obviously. But the city has every right to have their concerns, as well. In fact, that would be a "normal due process" on these kinds of developments, but lord knows such a process doesn't exist in OKC right now.

I agree with you Spartan. We need to enforce what we have until we can strengthen the codes. The question is, how many of these buildings are actually classified historic buildings and are codes going to be violated if they are razed?

Well, codes relating to HP may or may not use the National Register as a standard, but in OKC that is not the case, and even in those communities, it is usually "on or probably eligible for" the National Register. Here most preservationists will mention "Section 106" as a vital reference that usually sets a standard that includes "probably eligible."

But what it all boils down to is that buildings can be historic for a number of reasons, but obviously not simply because they're old. Structures protected by HP ordinances should be significant for some reason, which can either be on the local, state, or national level. Comprising OKC's very last authentic section of its Main Street alone more than qualifies as locally significant using consistent HP standards, and with these structures you could also argue significance for architecture (being a great example of early 20th Century urban architecture) and local history (department store? etc).

Here's some new photos. Yeah I know nothing changes on this block...

March 1 2012

http://www.flickr.com/photos/williamhider/sets/72157629505085917/with/6945009367/

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Looks like work started back up at the Coney Island corner.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7041/6945009367_294c511f24_b.jpg

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March 2 2012

http://www.flickr.com/photos/williamhider/sets/72157629139966776/

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http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7069/6947915921_c7360ddc2f_b.jpg

Notice how it's all done except for this one part.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7060/6801806694_c8ec45589c_b.jpg

That part of Main has without doubt been torn up the longest of any stretch of road.

That part of Main has without doubt been torn up the longest of any stretch of road.

Gives credence to your conspiracy theory...

I was finally able to have lunch at Coney Island today. There was a pretty decent crowd when I was there. Hopefully they will make it through this extended construction.

Developer Nicholas Preftakes produces Main Street surprise in downtown Oklahoma City

Downtown leasing agents were surprised last week when they received an email advising properties along the 400 block of W Main Street acquired by Nicholas Preftakes are available for lease.

http://newsok.com/developer-nicholas-preftakes-produces-main-street-surprise-in-downtown-oklahoma-city/article/3659122

Wow, that's interesting.

But none of those properties are in rental condition so this could just be yet another evasive ploy.

The potential skyscraper that we thought was planned for this location must didn't come to fruition or it moved to different location, so now Preftakes is leasing the spaces.

The potential skyscraper that we thought was planned for this location must didn't come to fruition or it moved to different location, so now Preftakes is leasing the spaces.

Yeah, guess so.

Glad to see the historic streetwall is safe for the foreseeable future!

March 2 2012
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7064/6947916891_0bb62f019e_b.jpg


I do wonder what type of space is below the skylights? Every time I'm down there, I'm intrigued by the contrast.