I've found Larry is usually right when it comes to facts and figures and quotes. When I disagree with him, it's usually interpretation of the data or quotes.

RC you are on eto something. Elts plug this hole and lets give Fire their time to take budget cuts. Lets close a third of the fire stations, but make sure your parks department ahs enough people to cut and water the grass downtown and water the pretty flowers. Who cares if the wild fires takes of and burns down peoples homes and property because the green grass that will replace that ugly burnt grass with be worth it. That sounds great. RC finally made sense. Lets sacrifice the SAFETY of the citizens just so we have enough trashmen to pick up trash, or mowers to mow the lawns or water the grass. AS long as our city looks good as it burns down then its time for PS to take a cut.

Its amazing how people dont realize that by making our city a BIG LEAGU city it is causing development farther and farth out from the city center CAUSING a hire need for FIRE and POLICE protection.

Nothing against the people that do their jobs but really? we have an overcrowded jail and i am sure lots of messed up kids that would be great workers to mow and water. I really think that the citizens in our city would step up and help maintain the parks. Maybe not every park but some.

RC i cant even FATHOM the thoughts that go through your head. Do you have a bronze lawn Mower on a shelf?

Betts--- Maps is over, i dont think any of us are trying to change the projects but we would like city council members that arent playing the money shell game. We dont want ones that take money from us to help their funding. I know its hard but we want straight talkers, that understand our jobs and the funding it takes to run a FD in this size of City. I did notice in the gazzett the amount of times that when they talked about a candidate a lot was placed on the opposition of the maps 3 and the support they are getting from the IAFF and the FOP. Yes i know some of the candidates that want to be elected have talked about maps 3 and what not but like walters i think the best they can do is just make sure promises are met. If IAFF wins then there would be only 4 votes out of 9. not like they can just walk in and start changing stuff. But who knows. I would just like the City Manager to quit screwing us and our money like Larry posted.

I think his house must have a sprinkler system installed and he dont care about anyone elses. I am fairly new on Fire but maybe by the time i want to retire i can have my degree in poly sci and run for city council. Whos knows that still at least 17 years away. lol

BETTS for MAYOR!. I would support ya.

Larry that doesn't sound right at all.


I've found Larry is usually right when it comes to facts and figures and quotes. When I disagree with him, it's usually interpretation of the data or quotes.

Thanks Betts, but to be fair, I didn't take the time to go find the quote etc, so am doing it from memory. While the numbers seem to be the same I think they are different because of the reason I gave in my post. Add to that the 1 month lapse between the post that started the thread and the Oklahoman article (both talking about 30 jobs). May endeavor to find the quote (know it is in the latest Budget report from the City, but I may still have it elsewhere). Politician types like to get creative with numbers and move things around to put whatever spin they want to so that may be the case here too. But I don't know for sure, it is my gut feeling on it. If someone knows otherwise (that they are the same 30 positions) please correct.

On edit: I presumed both of your posts were re: my post that immediately preceded them

RC you are on eto something. Elts plug this hole and lets give Fire their time to take budget cuts. Lets close a third of the fire stations, but make sure your parks department ahs enough people to cut and water the grass downtown and water the pretty flowers. Who cares if the wild fires takes of and burns down peoples homes and property because the green grass that will replace that ugly burnt grass with be worth it. That sounds great. RC finally made sense. Lets sacrifice the SAFETY of the citizens just so we have enough trashmen to pick up trash, or mowers to mow the lawns or water the grass. AS long as our city looks good as it burns down then its time for PS to take a cut.

Its amazing how people dont realize that by making our city a BIG LEAGU city it is causing development farther and farth out from the city center CAUSING a hire need for FIRE and POLICE protection.

Nothing against the people that do their jobs but really? we have an overcrowded jail and i am sure lots of messed up kids that would be great workers to mow and water. I really think that the citizens in our city would step up and help maintain the parks. Maybe not every park but some.

RC i cant even FATHOM the thoughts that go through your head. Do you have a bronze lawn Mower on a shelf?

Betts--- Maps is over, i dont think any of us are trying to change the projects but we would like city council members that arent playing the money shell game. We dont want ones that take money from us to help their funding. I know its hard but we want straight talkers, that understand our jobs and the funding it takes to run a FD in this size of City. I did notice in the gazzett the amount of times that when they talked about a candidate a lot was placed on the opposition of the maps 3 and the support they are getting from the IAFF and the FOP. Yes i know some of the candidates that want to be elected have talked about maps 3 and what not but like walters i think the best they can do is just make sure promises are met. If IAFF wins then there would be only 4 votes out of 9. not like they can just walk in and start changing stuff. But who knows. I would just like the City Manager to quit screwing us and our money like Larry posted.

I think his house must have a sprinkler system installed and he dont care about anyone elses. I am fairly new on Fire but maybe by the time i want to retire i can have my degree in poly sci and run for city council. Whos knows that still at least 17 years away. lol

BETTS for MAYOR!. I would support ya.

That old "put the citizens in danger spew is a crock", there's ways to cut budget's without cutting personnel, you know it and the IAFF157 know's it, but more importantly, the citizens understand your fear monger attitudes and they know it. This is the typical response from PS, if we don't get more we can't do our jobs--------suck it up like everyone else, stop whining and do the job you handsomely paid to do.

Bronze Mower my A--, mines Gold Plated buddy!!

That old "put the citizens in danger spew is a crock", there's ways to cut budget's without cutting personnel, you know it and the IAFF157 know's it, but more importantly, the citizens understand your fear monger attitudes and they know it. This is the typical response from PS, if we don't get more we can't do our jobs--------suck it up like everyone else, stop whining and do the job you handsomely paid to do.

Bronze Mower my A--, mines Gold Plated buddy!!

But you forget the Mayor resorted to the same tactic (before that it had been 95-100% positive, "Continue the Momentum" etc).

Here is what he had to say at the news conference with Councilman Marrs and DA Prater:
http://newsok.com/maps-3-use-tax-to-fund-safety-in-oklahoma-city/article/3416993

MAPS 3 use tax to fund safety in Oklahoma City (Oklahoman, 11/13/09)


"I can assure you that if MAPS does not pass, our public safety issues multiply,” Mayor Mick Cornett said at a news conference called in response to union opposition to MAPS 3.

Cornett said if MAPS 3 passes, the city will give MAPS 3 use tax revenue to public safety.
...
"The MAPS use tax can be used to help ensure that public safety remains a top priority. We will not have that option if MAPS 3 does not pass,” Cornett said.
...
[District Attorney David] Prater, a former police officer, said the use tax plan guarantees no police officers will lose their jobs in the next two years. He also said the plan convinced him to support MAPS 3.

Even Doug (an ardent Cornett and MAPS 3 supporter) stated that the Mayor played the "fear card". His blog post is an excellent analysis/commentary on the issue. Highly recommended. http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2009/11/great-maps-3-debate.html
Here is what Doug had to say:

If MAPS does not pass, are our public safety issues going to multiply? Notwithstanding the mayor's assurance that they will, such a statement just doesn't compute. For a moment, imagine that no MAPS proposal was before the voters right now at all. None. Imagine that no MAPS proposal was going to occur even in the foreseeable future. Suddenly, or even over the foreseeable future, are public safety issues going to multiply? Are we about to become more crime-ridden? Are fewer fires going to get put out? The blatant statement that, suddenly, public safety is going to suffer without MAPS 3 is not only false, it is misleading. Is our economy, which is good, suddenly going to turn bad, and, if so, for what reason? This statement simply makes no sense at all. Plus, the fear card was played.

There is a mis-statement made by Marrs "The MAPS for kids use tax has provided over 60 million dollars for public safety," in the news conference that was repeated in an Oklahoman article (but corrected in the Journal Record). The total amount collected by the MAPS for Kids Use Tax was $60.3M. All of that money did NOT go to public safety as Marrs claimed. The actual amount was $15.9M.
About $15.9 million of an estimated $60.3 million in use tax collected from the MAPS for Kids issue has already been applied to support public safety on materials such as police cars, firetrucks, police helicopters, technology and fire stations. On $777 million, the use tax is projected to be about $90 million, city officials said.
Will leave it at that for now, but have a much more detailed (and even lengthier) post that I will spare everyone. LOL

I'm with rcjunkie on this one.

I must say, the conversation in a very large group that I sat with at halftime at the basketball game yesterday was all about the elections tomorrow. I didn't say a word...just listened, and it was not flattering to the firefighters and their choice of political company. These weren't uppity Nichols Hills folks I was sitting with either. The majority are southside Oklahoma City residents, with a scattered few up north. Again, be careful of your political bedfellows. It can come back to bite.

Election and even your local mayor aside, I'm confuzzled.
Typically a grant is provided for a specific purpose, as requested within the grant proposal package.
My understanding, from reading here, is that the submitted grant proposal was to obtain funds to
reestablish eliminated FD positions.

I readily concede my understanding may be wrong on what was actually sought via the grant.

But, if a grant was provided to restore eliminated positions, is it so open ended the grant funds can be used without restoring eliminated positions? One of the posters seemed to suggest that was the city mgr's perspective.

Not meaning to kick over a gas can by a fire, but I don't enjoy being confuzzled, despite all evidence to the contrary in my typical thought patterns.

Betts- we must have been at the same Sun LA game, but I was in the cheap seats up high. Kids love it but I must admit I'm not much of a basketball fan and spent more time messing with Iphone and listening to surrounding conversations. I got to listen to similar political conversations which were completely opposite of what you were hearing. I actually heard one guy say the Mayor and council should be run out of town on a rail. That was one I haven't heard in a while. So I guess it's all a matter of perspective of where you get to seat at the ball game, down courtside- life is good. Up in the nose bleed sections-different perspective.

I seriously have no idea why the average person would have a beef with the city council, unless you were sitting with firefighters, or with people who have been misled about the projected road repairs. I do not believe the average person is suffering from a cut in the number of firefighters or policemen. The number of people who actually require help from either one of you is small enough that it doesn't impact most voters, and you still have very good response times. Most of us suffer from too many policemen on Broadway by the bread factory or on I-235 waiting to give us tickets, to be honest with you. I'm not even saying I don't believe you need more help, but rather that I don't think the public perception is that they're suffering from your lack of help.

When I spent time at the Ford Center campaigning for both MAPS taxes, the response I got from people there for the game was overwhelmingly positive, with the exception of the firefighters present. And I did all my campaigning in the third tier. I think most people are very pleased with MAPS. Surveys show most people are happy with the way OKC is going.

I don't sit courtside, nor do I socialize with people who sit courtside. I have plenty of friends who sit up in the "cheap seats". The courtside people have their own special lounge down below the arena. But, I don't feel jealous of the people that do, nor do I feel they owe me something.

Not sure if the press release below is on topic but to me it sure doesn't say that we need to hire new city councilmembers that are promoting "change"...

02/28/11 Contact: Kristy Yager – 297-2550


City earns highest ratings possible from Standard and Poor’s and Moody’s
Standard & Poor’s rating service has announced that they confirm Oklahoma City’s General Obligation debt rating of AAA, while Moody’s Investor Service has also confirmed the City’s Aaa bond rating.

Both ratings are the highest ratings offered by their respective services, putting Oklahoma City in an elite group of the best municipal credits in the marketplace.

A few of the factors that contributed to Oklahoma City’s continued high rating include:

Oklahoma City’s expanding regional economic base that serves as the State’s economic engine
Ongoing downtown redevelopment
Consistently strong financial performance and position that includes strategic business planning, multi-year forecasts, balanced budgets, long term capital plans and compliance with reserve policies
Conservative financial management practices
Low debt and an affordable capital improvement program
Political and management stability

The high rating means lower interest rates the City pays to sell bonds to fund major capital projects like streets, bridges, sidewalks and trails and park improvements. The less the City pays in interest, the more there is to spend on bond projects.

The high ratings also show the national bond rating agencies’ confidence in the City’s investment climate.

Other cities of our size or larger with a AAA rating include Austin, San Antonio, Denver, Indianapolis, Salt Lake City, Minneapolis, Charlotte, Columbus and Seattle.

Bond ratings are issued before a city, state, or other public body can issue bonds to finance major capital projects. The City will sell $43 million in General Obligation Bonds on March 8.

# # #

I seriously have no idea why the average person would have a beef with the city council,

The council's emphasis has been on downtown since at least the early 1970's. I don't personally have a problem with that, but you have to remember that thousands of Oklahoma City residents never go downtown, even now. In fact, it's probably true that most of them don't.

Folks who live out northwest probably don't mind the perception of 'benign neglect.' But in some closer-in neighborhoods, I think people resent the council's downtown-centric approach. It's been that way since I was a teenager.

After the deaths of Dean McGee and Ed Gaylord, and the collapse of the Vose family's fortunes, there was a hope, at least in some quarters, that the city leadership would 'open up,' and other voices would be heard. I think that actually happened during Ron Norick's administration. But now, the perception is that we are returning to the 'bad old days' of a handful of people calling all the shots.

I should modify my previous post to say "on downtown (and the fairgrounds)"

Casey- No your post had nothing to do with this topic and should be removed and put into a new thread or attached to one of the numerous ones discussing city council races. But tell your Dad thanks anyway, for being the lone ranger responsible for this rave review in the Standards and Poor along with one of the fittest cities in America from Taco Bell.

Back to topic.

Betts- seriously? Low impact to the citizens of Okc? Then you're correct. Let's start closing down some more fire companies and put the axe to some fire stations. How about new station 6 down in bricktown first. And no, I had seats with a bunch of blue collar grunts with not a single FF in sight. As for response times, you better check again since they've cut a few brush pumpers and an engine downtown coupled with an increase in work. We are struggling to meet response times.

Betts- seriously? Low impact to the citizens of Okc? Then you're correct. Let's start closing down some more fire companies and put the axe to some fire stations. How about new station 6 down in bricktown first. And no, I had seats with a bunch of blue collar grunts with not a single FF in sight. As for response times, you better check again since they've cut a few brush pumpers and an engine downtown coupled with an increase in work. We are struggling to meet response times.

Let's not be dramatic. If all you had to do was put out fires, you'd be laying people off. The problem is, you're sending a full fire truck everytime some little lady falls in the bathroom (I'm not trying to be derogatory towards little old ladies, since I will be one sooner rather than later, but rather, illustrative). Then EMSA shows up. You know what the solution is, as do I. We need EMSA to go away, but the money remain. We need calls to be triaged and response cars or pickup trucks purchased so that little old ladies get one or two people out to the house to pick them up. They're doing it in other cities, so we can do it here. Mary is all about tort reform, so perhaps triage of calls is truly possible. Rather than throwing a fit about needing more personnel, why don't you spend your political capital, if you have any left, to take over EMSA services? You might even get all of us to help you out at city hall on that battle. Then, if that happens, streamline your services. The department with the most employees doesn't win, doesn't get to be king of the hill. This isn't a game. There is no money faucet and so we need to be thoughtful for how what we have is spent.

BEtts, I like you I really do. I like yoir thoughts on taking over emsa and allowing the fd and or city/ps keep the money it would bring in. I fly for eaglemed part time and we were in ft worth and had a chance to talk to a crew picking us up at the airport and they have implemented something like that response truck called advanced practice pmeds which would go run those type of calls or frequent flyers. Betts I really hope that when the fd makes their presentation to the city council for als transport you would be one of the first to call ur council person and tell them ur in support. Betts for city manager.

Tehvpir, not only would I be there, I would be very unhappy not to be there and I would feel very comfortable speaking to the council about it or asking some of my friends who are ER physicians to speak. I feel very strongly about this. However, this cannot come from me, obviously. That's why I'm charging you all with making the push. I'm sure it's been tried before, but no one every won by quitting.

By the way, I'm up because I'm working the first of my 7 days in a row. This is a good month. Last month I worked 16 days in a row. I'm not whining about it, just saying! I love my job.

This is the problem right here.

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2011/02/28/fire-captain-says-cuts-to-blame-for-injury/


A Sacramento Fire Department captain who broke his back in a fall while fighting a house fire over the weekend says a lack of manpower directly led to his injuries, but department officials disagree.
Fire Captain Gene Dibble said a ladder tilted back while he tried to climb to the roof at a Rancho Cordova home Saturday night, throwing him to the ground and jamming his equipment into his spine, breaking it.
Captain Dibble said he was the last man to climb the ladder, and nobody was available to hold the ladder steady.

“We literally ran out of people. Ordinarily we would have had someone there to anchor the ladder. There was no one left,” he said.

...

The fire department hopes to end rolling brownouts soon thanks to a $5 million grant from the federal government last week, which will be used to hire 27 firefighters.
Dibble will begin rehabilitation next week.


What happens next year when the $5 million grant runs out and Sacramento is on the hook to pay the salaries and benefits of 27 firefighters that they can't even afford right now?

http://www.newsok.com/oklahoma-city-and-firefighters-union-agree-on-contract/article/3545123#

Oklahoma City and firefighters union agree on contract (Oklahoman, 3/2/11)


Oklahoma City Council members Tuesday unanimously passed a collective bargaining agreement with its firefighters union. The agreement does not include raises but does increase the contribution the city pays for firefighters' insurance benefits.

“This brings the rate, the annual amount we're paying for the firefighters, in line with the cost for the rest of the city employees,” City Manager Jim Couch said.
...
The firefighters union membership ratified the 2010-2011 contract Feb. 7.