I certainly don't mind a mixture of types of housing or prices of housing, and its my neighborhood we're talking about. But, I think Rover's point is well taken. Do we have any confidence that the new housing being built will stand even a short test of time? And while we can always tear down and start over, how often have we seen that happen? How sustainable is planned obsolescence? I was just thinking of some of the great old apartment buildings around the Plaza in Kansas City. They're brick, with great details. They can be remodeled indefinitely and likely will be. Looking at New York, you see Harlem experiencing a resurgence, despite having been a virtual ghetto for years. That can only happen because the homes there have great bones and so are appealing to purchase and renovate. When I moved here Edgemere Park was fairly shabby, but it is again a popular place to own a house and the houses are well-built enough, with durable materials, that they're easily remodeled. There are some fabulous old apartment buildings on Robinson that were scary then, but really just need a little bit of love and I imagine they'll be wildly popular. I have no faith that anyone will be saying that about any of the apartments being currently constructed. Developers undoubtedly plan to sell long before the problems with less durable construction become apparent, but we'll still be here.

I have yet to see a single one of the developers purchase a home in Deep Deuce, with the exception of Grant Humphries at Block 42 (and he's already gone). It would be nice to see one of them show us they have faith in the type of neighborhood they're creating.

I think, Sid, we may be talking about two different things. The only concern I'm expressing is with quality of construction and what buildings will look like in 20-25 years. I don't think the entire neighborhood has to be so expensive that people of different socioeconomic groups can't live there. What I would like to see is a standard of construction that will ensure the buildings currently being built still look good when the next generation is ready to live there. I'd be fine with developers cutting their costs with interior finishes to make housing more affordable, as they do seem determined to cut costs wherever possible. If the exterior buildings will look good in 50 years, then apartments can be remodeled to people's tastes. At this point, though, you are right. The damage, if there is any, has been done as there's really almost no open land left. So, I guess I'm just worrying and complaining. Maybe if we worry and complain enough, standards can be higher for Core to Shore and Midtown when new developments start going in there. If so, though, those will be the desirable neighborhoods of the future, and Deep Deuce will end up as the weak sister, as many of our buildings age ungracefully.

Isn't the primary point of this the "bones" of the structures being built today? How many "modern" developments will be considered to have "good bones" in 50 years? I have only recently begun looking into insulated concrete form construction, but it does not seem to be prohibitively more expensive than stick framing especially for multi-unit buildings that are expected to be around for generations. Maybe there are better techniques than ICF, but the majority of developers now seem to be looking for a quick buck rather than a reputation for quality, lasting work. I think Betts' and Rover's general theme of most their posts is we should concentrate on building lasting developments of the sort described by Sid.

Isn't the primary point of this the "bones" of the structures being built today? How many "modern" developments will be considered to have "good bones" in 50 years? I have only recently begun looking into insulated concrete form construction, but it does not seem to be prohibitively more expensive than stick framing especially for multi-unit buildings that are expected to be around for generations. Maybe there are better techniques than ICF, but the majority of developers now seem to be looking for a quick buck rather than a reputation for quality, lasting work. I think Betts' and Rover's general theme of most their posts is we should concentrate on building lasting developments of the sort described by Sid.

I don't know how much pricier ICF is than stick built structures. The problem is that the real savings comes in the form of dramatically decreased utility costs. So, if you're building an apartment building where people are paying their own utilties, you don't really have incentive to use ICF. The other advantage is safety when faced with high winds/tornados, but again, I doubt many developers are worrying about the safety of their tenants. I can tell you, having seen my neighbor cut a wider opening to put in a door rather than a window in his house, that ICF built houses will be around in 200 years, barring something like a major earthquake. 14 inch wide walls, with an 8 inch core of concrete and rebar is an impressive sight when you look at it in cross section.

I don't know how much pricier ICF is than stick built structures. The problem is that the real savings comes in the form of dramatically decreased utility costs. So, if you're building an apartment building where people are paying their own utilties, you don't really have incentive to use ICF. The other advantage is safety when faced with high winds/tornados, but again, I doubt many developers are worrying about the safety of their tenants. I can tell you, having seen my neighbor cut a wider opening to put in a door rather than a window in his house, that ICF built houses will be around in 200 years, barring something like a major earthquake. 14 inch wide walls, with an 8 inch core of concrete and rebar is an impressive sight when you look at it in cross section.

Google says it's from 1-5% more expensive to build with ICF. Seems if you could pitch substantially lower operating costs to the buyer, you'd have justification for slightly higher sale prices.

Google says it's from 1-5% more expensive to build with ICF. Seems if you could pitch substantially lower operating costs to the buyer, you'd have justification for slightly higher sale prices.

That is definitely worth the small additional cost. Seems to me ICF could become the dominant building technique in tornado prone areas with some smart marketing. Lots of benefits with almost negligible costs.

That is definitely worth the small additional cost. Seems to me ICF could become the dominant building technique in tornado prone areas with some smart marketing. Lots of benefits with almost negligible costs.

It really should be cheaper to get fire and tornado insurance on ICF buildings. Anyone know if it is?

It is, I think. I've also got a slate roof and a sprinkler system in my house in case of fire and they lowered my insurance costs as well, so I'm not sure what kind of discount I got for the ICF construction.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3778/8964054554_8cec1ff09c_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/77483833@N04/8964054554/)
Maywood Apartments (http://www.flickr.com/photos/77483833@N04/8964054554/) by lazio85 (http://www.flickr.com/people/77483833@N04/), on Flickr

Great shot Lazio, thanks!

Man, that sucker is going up quick.

Looking good. You can still see in that picture how much infill is needed for that area. At least two announced projects (the second phase of this apartment complex and Mosaic) are going to contribute quite a bit toward that.

I saw on the most recent OKC Economic Development Trust report that phase II of this project is in design.

They had already applied to close some unused alleys on that property so I bet we see something before the design committee soon.

I know they hope to start the second phase before the first one is complete.

We need about 10 neighborhoods like Deep Deuce.

Is that big grassy area in the front (i.e. at the bottom of the photo) the parcel that SandRidge owns?

Is that big grassy area in the front (i.e. at the bottom of the photo) the parcel that SandRidge owns?

It's owned by an LLC that we believe to be more of a Tom Ward & family thing rather than SandRidge.

Is that big grassy area in the front (i.e. at the bottom of the photo) the parcel that SandRidge owns?

yes

It's owned by an LLC that we believe to be more of a Tom Ward & family thing rather than SandRidge.

Ok, yeah, that's the lot I was thinking of. In other words, it won't be developed any time soon.

I saw on the most recent OKC Economic Development Trust report that phase II of this project is in design.

They had already applied to close some unused alleys on that property so I bet we see something before the design committee soon.

I know they hope to start the second phase before the first one is complete.

And remind me where that will go. In the small lot to the south of this? Or the larger lot between the brownstones and the lofts?

Directly east, where the large metal building now stands.

Will have a similar footprint to Phase I.

Directly east, where the large metal building now stands.

Will have a similar footprint to Phase I.

Wow, this whole complex is going to be gigantic. HUGE footprint.

Hey, remember when it looked like this? (Lazio's pic from mid December)

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/maywood121912.jpg

Do we have any details about the phase 2 design? Hopefully it's not another 4 story brick flat box, but rather something with a little variety in height...

Directly east, where the large metal building now stands.

Will have a similar footprint to Phase I.

Wow. Once that is done, there will be a few infill places, but it will be mostly built out up to 4th Street. I know there are apartments proposed for the area between the southern brownstones and the Maywood lofts, but what about between this project and the northern brownstones? I also can't wait to see what will be done on the triangle of 4th, Oklahoma and Harrison.

Wow. Once that is done, there will be a few infill places, but it will be mostly built out up to 4th Street. I know there are apartments proposed for the area between the southern brownstones and the Maywood lofts, but what about between this project and the northern brownstones? I also can't wait to see what will be done on the triangle of 4th, Oklahoma and Harrison.

I think flats are going in between Maywood Apts and the North Brownstones on the west side of Oklahoma. Not sure about the East side.

Is there foil on the west side of the Brownstones? Seems like that would indicate that they'll be building more of them.

Any ideas on when they'll start pre-leasing?

We need about 10 neighborhoods like Deep Deuce.

With all of the residential/retail/restaurant development going on in Midtown, I would venture to say it is becoming another cool downtown neighborhood.

Midtown is going to get there, and soon.

Much bigger holes to fill there but with The Edge, Ambassador Hotel and some big things coming from the MidtownR group and others, this will soon another fully-realized urban neighborhood.

Uptown / 23rd is going to get there, too.

Went by here today. Look for the usual.

Maywood Apartments (June 10 2013) - a set on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/williamhider/sets/72157634059732769/)

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5463/9013863500_51d9919f93_b.jpg

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5444/9014050682_4b0bd2e5a3_h.jpg

Any word on when the first phase will start pre-leasing?

http://youtu.be/VvRtF3cuk2g

Maywood Apartments (June 10 2013) - YouTube (http://youtu.be/VvRtF3cuk2g)

Nice recent shot, taken from Vast, shows the progress very well:

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1040745_470404923052024_1120139910_o.jpg (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=470404923052024&set=a.326434214115763.75029.259744237451428&type=1)

Drywall already being hung yesterday and today.

I added the official website to the article above.

Just a shell but looks like they are getting close to having detailed information.

I emailed them a couple days ago, they said probably September for leasing.

I emailed them a couple days ago, they said probably September for leasing.

And when would be the first move-ins?

And when would be the first move-ins?

Didn't say.

Some more photos I snapped today:

Will be interesting to see how the Bricktown Car Wash is incorporated into the future Phase II project.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5506/9235867244_bd51b17494_b.jpg

Close-up of Phase I
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/9233091139_90012bd369_h.jpg

Density
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2817/9235886670_3dc7393967_b.jpg

Can't wait til this green lot is filled and blocks this view...leading to more density
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5502/9235895348_c32af3aa77_b.jpg

What's the plan for the lot in the foreground? Are they going to extend the Brownstones in that direction?

I think those may be the lots for the "flat style" brownstones.

But I'm not so sure that plan is going to actually go through?

What's the plan for the lot in the foreground? Are they going to extend the Brownstones in that direction?

Maywood Park Flats - OKCTalk (http://www.okctalk.com/showwiki.php?title=Maywood+Park+Flats&highlight=maywood)

Maywood Park Flats - OKCTalk (http://www.okctalk.com/showwiki.php?title=Maywood+Park+Flats&highlight=maywood)

Interesting. Thanks for the link.

Maywood Park Flats - OKCTalk (http://www.okctalk.com/showwiki.php?title=Maywood+Park+Flats&highlight=maywood)

I think these are slated for the west end of the current brownstones. I may be mistaken, but I think Bradshaw's lots are on that end and Garrett and Co. control the rest under various entities, including the ones on the east end in the foreground of the above picture and the strip of land between the existing brownstones and this current phase of the Maywood Apts.

I think these are slated for the west end of the current brownstones. I may be mistaken, but I think Bradshaw's lots are on that end and Garrett and Co. control the rest under various entities, including the ones on the east end in the foreground of the above picture and the strip of land between the existing brownstones and this current phase of the Maywood Apts.

Yes, there are four separate lots just west of that strip of Brownstones.

Bradshaw / Maywood flats own the western-most two (on the corner) and Garrett owns the two just east of that, which abut the brownstones.

Not sure if the Maywood Flats plans to develop all four of those lots or just the two.

Yes, there are four separate lots just west of that strip of Brownstones.

Bradshaw / Maywood flats own the western-most two (on the corner) and Garrett owns the two just east of that, which abut the brownstones.

Not sure if the Maywood Flats plans to develop all four of those lots or just the two.

Just realized that I was looking at those images wrong. The last image does show a couple of the Bradshaw lots. I was under the impression he was going to do the south lots first, but again, I could be totally wrong and I'm not sure if he even has any kind of approvals or permits for building at this point.

I am curious if one of these guys will try to buy the Ruedy's Auto Shop to redevelop next to the train tracks.

I am curious if one of these guys will try to buy the Ruedy's Auto Shop to redevelop next to the train tracks.

I've bee told that he's been approached many times, but doesn't want to sell. I'm sure, like everyone, he has a price, but it doesn't sound like he'll be interested any time soon. I'm sure he's enjoying some nice increases with the surge in population, too.

I hope he doesn't sell.

Maywood Apartments (July 5 2013) - a set on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/williamhider/sets/72157634555229031/)

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2849/9243620267_586bc0fb3f_b.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3709/9243618925_ce5ed96a59_b.jpg

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2834/9246398822_41c4dae4ff_b.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3703/9243616149_0d0b354c4c_b.jpg

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2879/9243613647_91519b8b07_b.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7306/9243613301_328f23f588_b.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3724/9246392468_40defba158_b.jpg

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5344/9243606975_f5e4d3e4d0_b.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7282/9246584916_5233207443_b.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7408/9246581494_b5951b4a36_b.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3807/9255575914_f7709cbfd5_b.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3746/9252794283_bda6021367_h.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3802/9255576566_5920cd546e_h.jpg

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http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5467/9255577074_c82c2a9447_h.jpg

http://youtu.be/2sZzHDbSgGA

I wonder why does Steve keep referring to these as the "4th street apartments" in his latest article? Weird

Maybe to differentiate them from the Lofts for people? It is hard to keep all the Maywoods straight.

From yesterday.

They are really moving along!

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/maywood71913.jpg

The most exciting part will be when most of the empty space is gone, and demand is still high. That's when we'll get buildings over 4 stories.

Good grief, the exposed styrofoam with peeling paint on the ends of the brownstones is just awful. Hopefully the dereliction of those properties won't make it too difficult to attract quality renters to the neighborhood.

Didn't phase II of the Maywood apartments present their plan yesterday? Anything new on that?

Didn't phase II of the Maywood apartments present their plan yesterday? Anything new on that?
They did make a presentation last month. But they were on the agenda to make another presentation yesterday morning.

They did make a presentation last month. But they were on the agenda to make another presentation yesterday morning.

Correct, so I was curious if anything new came out of yesterday's. Didn't they say they were hoping to start construction this summer? Yet they still haven't filed for anything officially, right?

Good grief, the exposed styrofoam with peeling paint on the ends of the brownstones is just awful. Hopefully the dereliction of those properties won't make it too difficult to attract quality renters to the neighborhood.

I've talked to the developer until I'm blue in the face. Now the neighborhood association will have to see if it has teeth. Of course if he gets to build the flats he wants to build there will be no more peeling ends. If not, as I've been telling him for years, they need to be bricked. But, we've got 3 townhouses being custom finished right now and there's only one left unfinished. The quality of the product is unquestioned. If the developers had stuck to their plan like Bill Canfield did and not panicked and sold a bunch of land, finished the ends and finished out a few of the townhouses, we would likely be doing what the Hill is doing. Our developers had vision. Their plan for western Deep Deuce was ambitious and exciting back when they started, and definitely more urban than the Hill. But, they either didn't have the chutzpah or money to see it through the lean years. We all love our houses though and for me, the ability to customize from the framing up was the appeal.