Rover - it is well researched and documented.

True. HOWEVER, my friends that live suburban here in OKC actually do know many of their neighbors. Perhaps we're a more friendly bunch in OKC than in the other metro areas where this has been documented.

True. HOWEVER, my friends that live suburban here in OKC actually do know many of their neighbors. Perhaps we're a more friendly bunch in OKC than in the other metro areas where this has been documented.

Maybe, every situtation is different, which is why I didn't say everyone. Quick test - can you (and by 'you' - I mean any suburban dweller) name all the streets in your subdivision. I have live in mine for 11 years and I can't. I don't know any of the street names in the subdivision next to mine. I know the names of 4 people in my subdivision that don't live on my street - and that is because my kids know their kids. I suspect the vast majority of people are closer to my situtation.


However, in the spirit of on-line friendship, I will withdraw that portion of my post the Rover found out of line.

Maybe, every situtation is different, which is why I didn't say everyone. Quick test - can you (and by 'you' - I mean any suburban dweller) name all the streets in your subdivision. I have live in mine for 11 years and I can't. I don't know any of the street names in the subdivision next to mine. I know the names of 4 people in my subdivision that don't live on my street - and that is because my kids know their kids. I suspect the vast majority of people are closer to my situtation.


However, in the spirit of on-line friendship, I will withdraw that portion of my post the Rover found out of line.

Well, I can name all the streets because I live on the old street grid in Lincoln Terrace... so that's not fair. :)

I guess it's still just a hole in the ground huh? I havent seen it in a couple weeks so just wondering.

Big, muddy hole:



https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-mKF4oPMDrAY/UGsFOv6q9DI/AAAAAAAEZ3o/obtFl3toON8/s903/2012-09-06+19.23.24.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-aHXn_WLN2JM/UGsDsA8sV-I/AAAAAAAEZyM/Xjx-J_URWQM/s903/IMG_20120930_152156.jpg

Yesterday

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I thought this was a neat angle. It shows how close the Maywood Apts are to the CBD. Just amazes me how close things can be yet how far they can seem due to the low density.

It is about 1/3 mile to Sandridge if you use the sidewalk.

Big, muddy hole:

It's even muddier now and in fact resembles a pond. They have put mesh covered by concrete on the sidewalls of the hole and there are a bunch of big blue pipes ready to be placed, but otherwise not much has changed since that picture.

Well at least their getting things going, will there be an underground parking garage?

Yes

Any progress at all with the garage?

Any progress at all with the garage?

I drove by the place on Sunday and the hole is D E E E E E P! At least 35-40 below Oklahoma Avenue. No concrete yet though.

Big, muddy hole:


Pete - could you get this view?
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I think the construction fence would make that view difficult. I'll take a picture out my window though, if people want to see it.

I think the construction fence would make that view difficult. I'll take a picture out my window though, if people want to see it.

right at the corner of 4th & Oklahoma there is no construction wall. You can look down into the canyon from your car, as I did.

It would be worthwhile because you would also see the new Braniff glass in the skyline rising up above the huge construction pit.

Not the greatest quality, but these are from about an hour ago.

2801

2802

2803

LOL if that was 40 feet deep two days ago they must've been working day and night since to backfill 25 feet or so...

My baddddddd. .musta been (60 feet deep/2) *(39^2)/3042 feet ;-)

I've heard that Phase II of this project (immediately to the east) may start well before the first phase is complete.

They are in process on financing and have even said that ALL construction (both phases) could be finished in 18 months.

Pretty ambitious but this would add a lot of people to DD in a big hurry. This area is really exploding.

I've heard that Phase II of this project (immediately to the east) may start well before the first phase is complete.

They are in process on financing and have even said that ALL construction (both phases) could be finished in 18 months.

Pretty ambitious but this would add a lot of people to DD in a big hurry. This area is really exploding.

i was told this yesterday as well .. phase 2 should break ground in the next 4 months or so

Do we even have renderings for Phase 2? If it's going to be the exact same thing, that would be a huge letdown.

I don't think it will be exactly the same, but similar.

Hopefully retail on at least part of the ground floor.

Wow. This is crazy. (In a good way)

Saw them pouring footing yesterday.

And without having to go back and search this thread. How many units is this supposed to be?

Saw them pouring footing yesterday.

And without having to go back and search this thread. How many units is this supposed to be?

You can always just click on the "article" tab at the top of any discussion to get summary information.

Pete, is it even reasonable to hold out hope for some ground-floor use here?

Pete, is it even reasonable to hold out hope for some ground-floor use here?

Yes, as the design review committee relented for the first phase but I doubt they would for phase II.

There probably wouldn't be a lot, but I bet there is some.

Also, the phase II lot is flatter which would make this component easier to integrate.

Isn't relenting all they do?

No, they've been pretty good on the retail-on-ground-level front.

Most of our newer urban projects have it.

Good...they're gonna get rid of that metal shed...

My question is. What is (if anything) planned on the north side of the alleys north of the Brownstones but south of the Maywood Apts?

I'm trying to think of what could go on those parcels...

http://gyazo.com/daf8dcd6d07fa2f64711d56c72187347.png?1351819704

just a note but i don't believe that phase 2 will go all the way to walnut .. i don't think they own the land the car wash is on

My question is. What is (if anything) planned on the north side of the alleys north of the Brownstones but south of the Maywood Apts?

I'm trying to think of what could go on those parcels...

http://gyazo.com/daf8dcd6d07fa2f64711d56c72187347.png?1351819704

More Brownstones, possibly. Or possibly some of the flats within a Brownstone that Ron Bradshaw is planning for 3rd St. That was what was originally planned for those locations. Maybe someone who arrived on time to the homeowners meeting can chime in on this, as the developers might have mentioned it at the same time they were talking about brownstone sales. Now that people finally seem to be purchasing rather avidly downtown, it seems silly to make everything rental.

Hmm. Just doesn't seem like they'd offer great views. You'd either face the back of apartments or the back of the Brownstones and an alley...

Agreed. But you would be still able to see taller buildings in the CBD from the south side. I know at one point there was a discussion about flipping the top floor porches on the Brownstones on 3rd that face north. I think that would be a good idea if they build Brownstones to the north of the existing ones. The back of the Brownstones don't look bad at all because they're brick and use all the same finishes. There's landscaping around the driveways as well.

That is true. The alley could actually be kind of a cozy passageway for Brownstone residents; you are right, the backs of them don't look too bad at all.

I thought that's where the mckeown (sp) mini level-like structure was going?

No that's just a screenshot from my Google Earth. I have a lot of developments plotted in colors based on their construction status. I'm referring to the Brownstones on the north side of 3rd street. The parcels north of those and south of the Maywood Apartments under construction/planned along 4th.

Hmm. Just doesn't seem like they'd offer great views. You'd either face the back of apartments or the back of the Brownstones and an alley...

Holy crap. It would be "urban"


That is true. The alley could actually be kind of a cozy passageway for Brownstone residents; you are right, the backs of them don't look too bad at all.

This, if it were just more Browntones or something similar in form, it would feel extremely European. I think that in itself would be quite a view, even if it's just a narrow view.

More Brownstones, possibly. Or possibly some of the flats within a Brownstone that Ron Bradshaw is planning for 3rd St. That was what was originally planned for those locations. Maybe someone who arrived on time to the homeowners meeting can chime in on this, as the developers might have mentioned it at the same time they were talking about brownstone sales. Now that people finally seem to be purchasing rather avidly downtown, it seems silly to make everything rental.

My understanding is that the developers have come up with some creative plans that will utilize the space in question as for sale housing. They will be more “flat” like in design but blend in architecturally with the Brownstones. I will report back after I have seen the plans.

To those that have waited for the right time to buy a Brownstone, it is now. There are few left and likely will not be replicated, except on a custom build basis. Come March, we will have been in ours for four years and couldn’t be happier. The quality of construction is impeccable and I would think cost in the neighborhood of $300/sq. ft. to build today.

Disclaimer; I am not associated with the developers or have any financial stake in the development (other than my personal residence). I can though, spot quality when I see it. We effectively live in a concrete bunker, clad in brick and environmentally friendly. Utility costs are shockingly low and there is not a square inch of Masonite siding that needs to be painted, and/or replaced every few years when it comes off in the wind.

My understanding is that the developers have come up with some creative plans that will utilize the space in question as for sale housing. They will be more “flat” like in design but blend in architecturally with the Brownstones. I will report back after I have seen the plans.

To those that have waited for the right time to buy a Brownstone, it is now. There are few left and likely will not be replicated, except on a custom build basis. Come March, we will have been in ours for four years and couldn’t be happier. The quality of construction is impeccable and I would think cost in the neighborhood of $300/sq. ft. to build today.

Disclaimer; I am not associated with the developers or have any financial stake in the development (other than my personal residence). I can though, spot quality when I see it. We effectively live in a concrete bunker, clad in brick and environmentally friendly. Utility costs are shockingly low and there is not a square inch of Masonite siding that needs to be painted, and/or replaced every few years when it comes off in the wind.

So probably these will be more like Chicago "three flats" or "four flats" where everyone owns a floor in what appears to be a brownstone type building. The nice thing about that arrangement, too, is that you can buy multiple floors if you so desire. In fact, my kids are contemplating buying a middle floor of one of these in Chicago, and then as their family grows they have the option of buying the flat above or below them if it goes up for sale, with the option to ultimately own the whole thing. That gives people the ability to buy at multiple price points.

Yes these lots will be developed and yes they will sell. That's not my argument.
These lots would not be considered prime, but secondary. This is a lot like the middle seat on an airplane. People do not book the middle seat when other options at the same price point are available. Window and aisle seats sell first. And once those sell the middle seats start to sell. They still sell though.

So moving that argument to this topic. These lots do not have direct sidewalk access (aisle seat) or a good view of the street (window seat). We still have plenty of supply of window and aisle seats so it will be hard to get a market premium from the middle seats.

That is my argument. Yes i do want these lots developed and yes I do think they will be developed and yes I do think they will sell. Just too soon IMO to capture a market premium off of them at this point in time. In the future when Deep Deuce and AA really start to mesh these will be fantastic lots.

I hope that makes sense. I waited until today to reply so we could both cool off a little bit and perhaps explain our perspectives a little better.

Which is likely why the developers are talking about selling flats rather than an entire Brownstone. The price point for a very nice flat, even at the finish level of the Brownstones, makes the total amount of money needed for purchase enough less to make them more affordable for a greater number of people. At price points from $200,000 to $400,000, people are probably more willing to buy the "middle seat in the airplace, because they're still getting the amenities of living downtown in a luxury apartment, perhaps without the views. But, if planned correctly and landscaped correctly, the developers could create a little gem of an alley that would make them much more appealing. If they put porches on the south side, the top several floors would still get views of the CBD.

I think most urban dwellers buy for the location, not the view. Views can and will be interrupted with additional development.

Yes these lots will be developed and yes they will sell. That's not my argument.
These lots would not be considered prime, but secondary. This is a lot like the middle seat on an airplane. People do not book the middle seat when other options at the same price point are available. Window and aisle seats sell first. And once those sell the middle seats start to sell. They still sell though.

So moving that argument to this topic. These lots do not have direct sidewalk access (aisle seat) or a good view of the street (window seat). We still have plenty of supply of window and aisle seats so it will be hard to get a market premium from the middle seats.

That is my argument. Yes i do want these lots developed and yes I do think they will be developed and yes I do think they will sell. Just too soon IMO to capture a market premium off of them at this point in time. In the future when Deep Deuce and AA really start to mesh these will be fantastic lots.

I hope that makes sense. I waited until today to reply so we could both cool off a little bit and perhaps explain our perspectives a little better.

I just don't think the site is as bad as you're making a big deal out of.. There are much worse sites, and I'd say the proximity to other beautiful new buildings like the brownstones themselves qualifies as a good view itself? That's what I think you're missing

I just don't think the site is as bad as you're making a big deal out of.. There are much worse sites, and I'd say the proximity to other beautiful new buildings like the brownstones themselves qualifies as a good view itself? That's what I think you're missing

Right. I don't think the view or location is bad. There are just better locations in the area that haven't sold yet, and I expect those to be developed first. But with flats the individual price point would be lower as betts points out and would introduce another style of development, which I think would override any negatives from the location. I was talking about if they built 'duplicate' Brownstones on the north of the alley, I just couldn't see those flying off the shelf. Anyways....

I think you're expecting the sequence of development to "make sense" lol

Took some shots this evening. And a few of our "beloved alley"! ;-)

http://mattbridgesphoto.com/intranet/okctalk/IMG_0431.jpg
http://mattbridgesphoto.com/intranet/okctalk/IMG_0433.jpg
http://mattbridgesphoto.com/intranet/okctalk/IMG_0435.jpg
http://mattbridgesphoto.com/intranet/okctalk/IMG_0439.jpg
http://mattbridgesphoto.com/intranet/okctalk/IMG_0442.jpg
http://mattbridgesphoto.com/intranet/okctalk/IMG_0444.jpg
http://mattbridgesphoto.com/intranet/okctalk/IMG_0446.jpg
http://mattbridgesphoto.com/intranet/okctalk/IMG_0448.jpg

You have no idea how much I love you right now, Catch22... No homo (not that there's anything wrong with that /Seinfeld)

You have no idea how much I love you right now, Catch22... No homo (not that there's anything wrong with that /Seinfeld)

Haha it's a love/hate thing I guess!

If you look at your alley, as well, you might notice that there's about a four foot rise between the alley and the rest of the open land. So, there might be a bit of a peep over the Brownstones south of anything built there due to the height differential.

Some clarification may be in order here. To my understanding, what are being called alleys in these conversations are not. The existing driveways on the north side of the Brownstones are just that, driveways, owned by and maintained for the benefit of lot owners on both sides of same. The purpose of which, are ingress and egress to our rear-entry garages, and utility access – trash collection, meter readers, etc.. Covenants rule the use and maintenance of these, and $ to maintain, are paid by the homeowners association.

Future development of the remaining Brownstone lots, will utilize existing drives in a mirror image fashion. The backs will face south with rear entry garages, the fronts will be facing north with a “Mews” running between them and Bradshaw’s apartments. Someone here probably has a better definition but this what Wikipedia says. Mews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mews)

Driveway or not, it will still function as an alley.

So let me ask. If the grassy area between the alley/driveway and the apartments on 4th St are used for residential, where do the front doors go? If they build the 'front' of the buildings facing Oklahoma and Walnut they could do them wedding cake style with a patio facing east and west (depending on which side of the complex you are on). In the middle could be a parking garage. Of course, some units would only have sideviews but they would be much more affordable.

So let me ask. If the grassy area between the alley/driveway and the apartments on 4th St are used for residential, where do the front doors go?

As Soho said, there will be a mews-like lane running along the north side of the lofts/condos/brownstones/whatever and that is where the front doors will go. The south side will be an alley. However, I don't think there's any reason you couldn't take advantage of the views to the south by putting balconies on the south side. As alleys go, ours is not unattractive at all. I thought they should have done a top floor balcony facing south on the brownstones on the south side of 3rd St.

What she said... :)

JTF, I would add that there will not be central parking for the putative flats. I believe the developers intend to use two lots instead of one (50' vs 25') to allow for parking for that structure and a larger footprint on which 3-4 flats will be built, rather than one lot per Brownstone, as they have been. I believe the primary goal is to meet a sub $400k price tag, thereby appealing to a broader audience.

I am somewhat reluctant to repeat too much of what has been said, until the developers make an announcement. That said, I believe the first one to come out of the ground is/will be, pre-sold. Many here have mentioned that price range, as a sweet spot.

How close to an announcement are we?

How close to an announcement are we?

Could be months, but I will ask permission when we next meet. Have been promised a view of the completed plans.

I moved a ton of off-topic posts here:

http://www.okctalk.com/other-urban-development/24698-general-urban-development.html

I see an 8'x30' piece of asphalt removed from the parking lot east of the Conoco. Just north of the maywood apartments site. Does anyone know what that's about?