^I, too, was sorta country, when country wasn't cool. nor even on the cusp of suburbanization.
Still, I really like the New Urbanism as reflected in the dynamic Local Downtown Renaissance.
Especially, for example, the destruction of that eyesore by a NYC-esque "architect" to put one over on the Prairie Rube Companions.
Back in the day.

And I never shop at any form of Walmart.
(except, occasionally, for the random Rotisserie Chicken or to glean a bag of cheap Ciabatta Rolls)
(and the last time that occurred was about a year ago =)
(a long, long time away from a place called Choctaw
in a galaxy far, far away =)

(sorry, for any zookeepers that might have been offended by this contextural injection into an issue of such seriousness)

One question about the Planned Development, out there on old US 62 (aka NE 23, the):
Are sidewalks and proper crossing signals included in the plan?
(not to mention proper watershed/drainage concerns?)

A lot of people move into rural areas knowing the city is eventually going to catch up with them, but they often get more land and house for their money and when these businesses move in they see their land values go up.
Not saying I like this kind of development. Personally I like city life, but its an over simplification to say their moving to the country to escape the noise and traffic of the city. Until gas is over 4 or 5 dollars a gallon it is still economically friendly to anyone who wants a big house and large plot of land they can't afford in the city.

^I, too, was sorta country, when country wasn't cool. nor even on the cusp of suburbanization.
Still, I really like the New Urbanism as reflected in the dynamic Local Downtown Renaissance.
Especially, for example, the destruction of that eyesore by a NYC-esque "architect" to put one over on the Prairie Rube Companions.
Back in the day.

And I never shop at any form of Walmart.
(except, occasionally, for the random Rotisserie Chicken or to glean a bag of cheap Ciabatta Rolls)
(and the last time that occurred was about a year ago =)
(a long, long time away from a place called Choctaw
in a galaxy far, far away =)

(sorry, for any zookeepers that might have been offended by this contextural injection into an issue of such seriousness)

One question about the Planned Development, out there on old US 62 (aka NE 23, the):
Are sidewalks and proper crossing signals included in the plan?
(not to mention proper watershed/drainage concerns?)

I love what's going on downtown. My wife was commenting the other day about how nice it would be to still live in Gatewood with the Plaza District thriving. More than likely after the kids are gone...we will end up back downtown somewhere.

^ Just give it time . . . and by then you may have the opportunity to repurchase your dream house at ten times the price.
(and it will be a bargain =)

Or . . . Move out next to Choctaw Lake.
Where the elite meet to shop at Walmart with proper drainage control. =)
(and a golf course of sorts =)
plus what used to be a train track/railroad museum.

Guess what? Some people like urban living, some people like suburban living, some people like rural living. Some even like suburban living in a rural area. SHOCK! I'm amazed to see that people actually enjoy living in different kinds of areas, who knew!

Surprise. I check in on this thread, and once again I'm agog that a topic about CHOCTAW is full of urban assholery.

Seriously. It's gone full retard.

1. Walmart feels that it's a worthwhile investment.
2. The people that live in Choctaw WANT THIS TO HAPPEN.

The end.

Surprise. I check in on this thread, and once again I'm agog that a topic about CHOCTAW is full of urban assholery.

Seriously. It's gone full retard.

1. Walmart feels that it's a worthwhile investment.
2. The people that live in Choctaw WANT THIS TO HAPPEN.

The end.

Do the people in Choctaw want this to happen?

WapcLMmCnPM

What do you care?

If I understand your post, you are saying something that I have heard others thrown around without any real proof that I have seen. How does the urban subsidize the suburbs?

Here is your answer. I can't make you watch it but if you really want to know the answer to your question you will watch it. It's not so much that urban subsidizes suburban, it is that suburban is funded through a tax Ponzi scheme and urban is self-funding.

52NhFMFgLEY

^^ JTF do you still live in the suburbs? I know at one time you did, because you couldn't sell your house or you would lose money.

Yep - I am still part of the problem.

Let me add - it is not by choice though. I am married to someone who is just now catching on to New Urbanism (which has been a painful process).

What do you care?

Because these same mistakes are being made in cities and towns all across America, and someone is going to have bail them all out when the Ponzi scheme collapses.

Here is your answer. I can't make you watch it but if you really want to know the answer to your question you will watch it. It's not so much that urban subsidizes suburban, it is that suburban is funded through a tax Ponzi scheme and urban is self-funding.52NhFMFgLEY

I sat through the entire thing and listened. I go back to my original statement that a lot of assumptions must be made. In this case, there were a lot of omissions in the numbers. You can manipulate numbers to support any argument They look at the rural development and compare the cost of the road in the neighborhood with the property tax return. Most of the rural developments I am seeing (including my own) the road is built and maintained privately so there is actually a net gain in property taxes versus their statement of a 30 year payback. They discuss that that cities lose money on residential to gain on commercial. For their support, they look at industrial areas that do not provide any sales tax to the city. Of course, they do not take into account the financial benefit of new jobs as far as more money coming into the community and being spent of consumables with increases revenue.

Like it has been said many times in the threads concerning getting a grocery store downtown, retail follows roof tops. With the exception of the once a week trash service that comes through my neighborhood, we do not generally cost the city anything (we are private roads, septic, wells and propane) but the approximately $20 million dollars of homes in our neighborhood generates tax revenue. The new Crest at 104th generates tax revenue as well as any development that goes in at 104th and I44. The study provided omits any sales tax revenue from the equation and makes big assumptions that the city is providing all of the roads, etc. Crest and the other new stores (Firestone, Subway, Great Clips, Victorias, Mc Donalds, Cox Cable, would not be there but for the development on the west side of Moore and SW OKC.

I was doing two things at once but I didn't see anything in the video that urban areas are self supporting just that they are a better return on the money sq ft for sq ft.

I can see where arguments can be made for either side but my original point was that there really is no way to compare and come up with a true answer as there are way to many assumptions and factors that could be applied or omitted and either side can find examples to support their argument. Thanks for posting it though as it was interesting to listen to and does give some interesting points to consider.

Well, at least you took the time to watch it. No worries though - it took me several years to come around as well. :)

I've seen it.... you can hate on Walmart as much as you want.... but it's us who allow it to happen. That is the bottom line. Walmart can't just pick a location and say, we're building there. They have to go through a permit and approval process which is voted by the council who YOU elect.

I've seen it.... you can hate on Walmart as much as you want.... but it's us who allow it to happen. That is the bottom line. Walmart can't just pick a location and say, we're building there. They have to go through a permit and approval process which is voted by the council who YOU elect.
I'm always glad to get the unsolicited opinion of a 20 something that lives at home with their parents.

thanks.

I'm always glad to get the unsolicited opinion of a 20 something that lives at home with their parents.

thanks.So my age and who I live with has to do the opinion of someone? Great! I'm glad I have to see some monkey who probably lives in his mom's basement post random crap he probably copy and pastes from other sites.

See how that works?

Now instead of turning to personal attacks, how about you respond to my post that Dubya couldn't about the urban/suburban issue? Be specific...

BTW, in 5 months, I turn 21, officially an adult. In 7 months, I'm moving to L.A. and getting my own place. So if what you are posting is truly the only argument you have against is to attack me, perhaps you need to research your facts better or at least come up with a spin seeing as you apparently have no facts to argue against me or you wouldn't have attacked me; at least that's what I seem to notice.

So if you want a true debate where we can discuss things and not attack each other, go to this link http://www.okctalk.com/midwest-city-del-city/24754-choctaw-town-square-10.html#post803368 and please explain what about it is wrong. Otherwise I'm not going to debate whether or not whether Walmart is a horrible company because they pay waaaaaaaay more taxes than you or I do, contribute more to the economy than you or I do, donate way more money than you or I do, and are more successful than you or I have been at this point.

...... oh, and you're welcome if you appreciate a 20 year old's "unsolicited opinion" whom lives with his dad(parents). It's an honor that you'd take the time to and discredit me because of that. =))

Yep - I am still part of the problem.

Let me add - it is not by choice though. I am married to someone who is just now catching on to New Urbanism (which has been a painful process).

Please don't take any offense with this, but if I were you I would probably move out of Jacksonville entirely. I could move there right now for free if I wanted to but other than the beach and retail options, Jacksonville makes even a sprawly city like OKC look urban and bustling. Somewhere like Washington DC, New York City, Boston, San Francisco, or maybe Portland/Seattle would be a good fit for you. Washington DC in particular being that they have height restrictions so everything is super-dense.

Surprise. I check in on this thread, and once again I'm agog that a topic about CHOCTAW is full of urban assholery.

Seriously. It's gone full retard.

1. Walmart feels that it's a worthwhile investment.
2. The people that live in Choctaw WANT THIS TO HAPPEN.

The end.

Choctaw may one day be engulfed by true suburbia, but I don't see if ever being a breeding ground for urbanism. First and foremost, its too conservative. Second, most people who would choose to live out there want to live a peaceful, quiet "exurban" life.

I moved out here because I loathe the very idea of home owners associations (HOA). The very idea that you willingly spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and then give up the freedom to do what you want with your own property is unthinkable to me. I like city living but in America today it is hard to buy a new home in the city without an HOA being shoved upon you. They always say you have a choice but you really don't. Sure you can buy an older home and sacrifice your dream new home. You can move out to the country and have 50% of those on this site accuse you of contributing to urban sprawl. They want it both ways. They say you can move out to the country to avoid an HOA and then they bash on you for sprawl when you do. When you live in an urban environment, they force an HOA on you. I would love to buy a place in the middle of the city without an HOA. I think ou48A has a good point. Many of these people are collectivists at heart and so they are more community rights oriented than they are the individual. It is a clear distinction in thinking. To each his/her own but I was thrilled when the Love's opened.

Please don't take any offense with this, but if I were you I would probably move out of Jacksonville entirely. I could move there right now for free if I wanted to but other than the beach and retail options, Jacksonville makes even a sprawly city like OKC look urban and bustling. Somewhere like Washington DC, New York City, Boston, San Francisco, or maybe Portland/Seattle would be a good fit for you. Washington DC in particular being that they have height restrictions so everything is super-dense.

For the first 8 years I lived in Jacksonville I couldn't have been more indifferent about it. However, in the last few years (as a result of my conversion to New Urbanism) I have discovered the urban portion of Jacksonville and over the last 3 years I have grown to love this place. It has some awesome urban neighborhoods and driving for Uber has made me love it even more. I can't tell you how cool it is to pick a group of people at one urban neighborhood and take them to another neighborhood and literally see hundreds of people at sidewalk cafes and bars at 1AM. It brings a smile to my face and I am glad I can be part of the action.

I extended the offer to PluPan but it goes for anyone - if you make it down to Jax send me a PM and I'll be happy to give you the $5 tour.

I've seen it.... you can hate on Walmart as much as you want.... but it's us who allow it to happen. That is the bottom line. Walmart can't just pick a location and say, we're building there. They have to go through a permit and approval process which is voted by the council who YOU elect.

If no city offered Walmart incentives do you think Walmart could be able to survive on their own?

If no city offered Walmart incentives do you think Walmart could be able to survive on their own?I'm sure they could. They are a large company that I think could hold their own and could change a few things.

Listen, in the end, it is us who allow them to operate. WE have to choose that WE want better options and a better company philosophy. We just have so many who don't care.

Having been a resident in the vicinity of the outskirts of Choctaw for many years, many years ago, I wonder if the current Boondoggle/Klusterfukke includes a What-a-Burger (as an alternative to Braum's--where Jim Varney shot an effective Ad) or at least an In-An-Out/Smashburger in conjunction with the already approved, debated, and decided, Walmart for which everyone seems to be so hungering.) Sure hope the Shyster Group out of Bentonville still gets their way. And I'm fairly confident they will. =)

Dang. The more thangs change, the mo' they seems t' stays the same.

Looks t' me like a perfect opportunity for Krispy Kreme to reclaim their rightful place.

(I would run the old "Fireman from A'Far" illustration/joke by you but it might be too far removed.
From the scene of The Crime. Tp Be Understood and/or comprehended =)

Having been a resident in the vicinity of the outskirts of Choctaw for many years, many years ago, I wonder if the current Boondoggle/Klusterfukke includes a What-a-Burger (as an alternative to Braum's--where Jim Varney shot an effective Ad) or at least an In-An-Out/Smashburger in conjunction with the already approved, debated, and decided, Walmart for which everyone seems to be so hungering.) Sure hope the Shyster Group out of Bentonville still gets their way. And I'm fairly confident they will. =)

Dang. The more thangs change, the mo' they seems t' stays the same.

Looks t' me like a perfect opportunity for Krispy Kreme to reclaim their rightful place.day 46.... Still trying to find the meaning and origin of a post made by the infamous and rather notorious poster - RADICAL MO-OOOOO-DERATE - food supplies running low.... Water and hydration situation deteriorating; I just want you to know, if I die, remember why we started ;)

I own a home in choctaw.good for you. If you want country life with no development risks, you shouldn't have picked a place within 50 miles of a major metro area.

Even Guthrie, Jones, and El Reno will likely see some nice growth soon. Guthrie could spur its own growth though if planned and marketed themselves right.

I own a home in choctaw and have said from the very beginning that I don't want the walmart.


Have you watched Store Wars - When Walmart Comes to Town?

Yes i watched the full video you posted and have seen a lot of documentaries about what happens when walmart comes to town.

In this situation what really gets me is that there is a new walmart right down the street (douglas and highway 62), this one is on the same highway just 5 miles away.

We're going to be paying for this place for decades.

If no city offered Walmart incentives do you think Walmart could be able to survive on their own?

Absolutely. Wal-Mart is a huge operation with such monumental profits they don't need incentives. Cities however give them incentives because they want the tax revenue Wal-Mart brings, which is a lot being that it becomes the dominant retailers in its community and usually attracts other retailers to open alongside it.

As for this store, I can definitely see the argument against it. Wal-Mart's dominance and saturation in the OKC area and lack of alternatives is simply mindnumbing. However, it's even more mindnumbing that certain fast-growing areas of the metro are completely without a grocery store. Choctaw is exurban, but its growing and with growth comes the emergence of retail and other amenities. Given the case of their being no national grocers in the OKC metro, who is going to step up and fill that niche in Choctaw other than Wal-Mart? There are a few other areas I can think of where a Wal-Mart would be beneficial as well simply because they are well-developed yet very far from a grocer.

removed a bunch of posts that were nothing more than pointless bickering. let's stick to topic, people. -M

Absolutely. Wal-Mart is a huge operation with such monumental profits they don't need incentives. Cities however give them incentives because they want the tax revenue Wal-Mart brings, which is a lot being that it becomes the dominant retailers in its community and usually attracts other retailers to open alongside it.

I'm not so sure they could survive because the need new store openings to keep their business model going. One thing is for sure, without the subsidies they couldn't afford to put a 120,000 sq. ft. store on 32 acres of land.

I'm not so sure they could survive because the need new store openings to keep their business model going. One thing is for sure, without the subsidies they couldn't afford to put a 120,000 sq. ft. store on 32 acres of land.

I disagree. I do believe Wal-Mart is more vulnerable than some would think, but in today's retail climate it is still doing very well and is by far the dominant retailer, especially in OKC. If another retailer did to Wal-Mart what Wal-Mart did to K-Mart i.e. squeeze them out of the market, they could possibly be in trouble. I don't however see Americans en masse giving up one-stop shopping for individual locally owned stores in the near future.

Ignoring the gorilla: Williams Foods not worried about new Wal-Mart Supercenter | The Journal Record (http://journalrecord.com/2014/07/07/ignoring-the-gorilla-williams-foods-doesnt-worry-about-new-wal-mart-supercenter-real-estate/)

Williams Food store will be closed in 12 months.

Williams Food store will be closed in 12 months.who would want to shop there when Walmart Opens? I wouldn't...

who would want to shop there when Walmart Opens? I wouldn't...

I suspect a lot of Williams Foods customers will feel like you. I dare say that the entire Choctaw Plaza will be vacant in 18 months. The City of Choctaw just needs to make sure they subtract the lost tax revenue and jobs from these stores when they judge how 'successful' their Walmart venture is.

How did a thread about Choctaw get to 12 pages with no sign of stopping?

How did a thread about Choctaw get to 12 pages with no sign of stopping?to find out how it did happen, you must first discovered why it wouldn't happen.

to find out how it did happen, you must first discovered why it wouldn't happen.

?!?
What is the sound of one hand clapping, grasshoppper?

Williams Food store will be closed in 12 months.

Not because of Walmart. But because it is one of the worst grocery stores in oklahoma

?!?
What is the sound of one hand clapping, grasshoppper?
That is how I plan to run for president!

How did a thread about Choctaw get to 12 pages with no sign of stopping?

Threadcrapping.

Williams Food store will be closed in 12 months.

Why? Consumers IGA in Stillwater is still open 5 years after the new west side super Wal-Mart opened in Stillwater.

Why? Consumers IGA in Stillwater is still open 5 years after the new west side super Wal-Mart opened in Stillwater.

How many grocery stores have closed in Stillwater in the last five years?

I suspect a lot of Williams Foods customers will feel like you. I dare say that the entire Choctaw Plaza will be vacant in 18 months. The City of Choctaw just needs to make sure they subtract the lost tax revenue and jobs from these stores when they judge how 'successful' their Walmart venture is.

It's rather vacant now. What is there probably won't get pinched by Walmart. What is in there? I can think of Dollar General, Shape Fitness, Subway, a hot dog place, a chinese restaurant, a couple of non retail shops and a day care? I don't shop at WIlliams, it's overpriced and dirty. And I don't shop at Walmart, my wife does on occasion but I rarely step foot in the place.

It's rather vacant now. What is there probably won't get pinched by Walmart. What is in there? I can think of Dollar General, Shape Fitness, Subway, a hot dog place, a chinese restaurant, a couple of non retail shops and a day care? I don't shop at WIlliams, it's overpriced and dirty. And I don't shop at Walmart, my wife does on occasion but I rarely step foot in the place.

The Subway relocated. Simmon's BBQ is in that location now.

They have nice Williams in Tuttle and Piedmont that they have just built within the past year. I think its just time for them to build a new store.

The Subway relocated. Simmon's BBQ is in that location now.
That's right, they have the shop on 23rd, was it the old Brahms? I gotta go to the post office today, I'll look.

That's right, they have the shop on 23rd, was it the old Brahms? I gotta go to the post office today, I'll look.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Subway is in the old Braum's building now.

It is, and the Pizza Hut express is next to it.

Actually Choctaw Plaza is not that empty. Shape Fitness looks to be taking over the $.99 store that was vacant, and will leave it's current spot vacant. There are five restaurants (2 chinese, bbQ, donut, Spicy Dawg) a nail salon, check cashing place, Dollar General, Williams, a daycare, a vape store, something called Locked & Loaded, a Jackson Hewitt, a credit union branch, a bank, a hair salon, a cleaners and a store called the Indoor Garage sale.Maybe two or three vacant units other than that. I don't think that Walmart will impact those businesses much other than Williams and the hair salon.

I don't think that Walmart will impact those businesses much other than Williams and the hair salon.

Walmart isn't the only thing going in Choctaw Town Square.

Williams is done. We went to the walmart this morning (dont grocery shop there, we do that at crest) and when we drove by williams the first time there were no cars in front and an hour later on the way back there was 1 car. Walmart around 9am was about 1/6 parking lot full and it was over 1/2 when we left with more cars pulling in.

Meanwhile everyone at the walmart was exceptionally helpful, all the shelves were full, it didnt look like a war zone. Tons of employees working, multiple employees asked if we needed help(thats never happened in my entire life) , they had a new choctaw school bus parked outside, choctaw police car parked outside and the officer out of his car walking around, actually had real checkout lines open.

Fast forward to once Williams is gone, its going to turn into any other walmart where there will be 1 or 2 lanes open, you wont be able to find any employees, shelves will be half stocked, and any employee you see will avoid all eye contact. If the service we received today was the real walmart I would be a fanboy even with them killing local business, but its not and we all know whats going to happen 6-12 months from now once the local businesses have thrown in the towel.

We went last night and did a scouting/price checking trip. The night crew there is already terrible. They had four lanes open at 8:30pm, and lines were backed about a dozen carts deep for every line. So we went to the self checkout and they were also slammed and the lady kept apologizing that they were short handed.

Shelves did look stocked for the most part, they were definitely out of some key items in the grocery section, but me being a grocery merchandiser I look for that more than anything.

The buildings leaking already, they had dozens of buckets throughout the store, down aisles, up in corners and things.

And more annoying than a complaint but the drive into the building is insane, the road curves all around the building with no easy access up into the parking lot besides on either extreme edge of the building.

As far Williams, they are definitely in trouble, we live in Harrah and drive through Choctaw nearly daily and I haven't seen more than 2-3 cars in their parking lot since Walmart opened.

Wow.. The building is seriously already leaking?

Wow.. The building is seriously already leaking?

I'm guessing so. I don't know what else they could have been for, even though it hasn't rained in a couple days they had several buckets up on the shelves on the bread racks, and buckets down the chip aisle and up along the top of the coolers in grocery. They definitely were for catching some type of liquid, they had the paper-towels in the bottom trick any retailer in an old building/new building with issues, knows to keep water from splashing back up and on your floor.

That is a complete joke. I'd be ashamed to be the developer of something like that.

That is a complete joke. I'd be ashamed to be the developer of something like that.

I think that the use of the word "developer"--within this context--is a good example of Newspeak/Doublethink/Doubletalk.

I think that the use of the word "developer"--within this context--is a good example of Newspeak/Doublethink/Doubletalk.tru dat! In this case, perhaps we could call them undevelopers.

Williams is done. We went to the walmart this morning (dont grocery shop there, we do that at crest) and when we drove by williams the first time there were no cars in front and an hour later on the way back there was 1 car. Walmart around 9am was about 1/6 parking lot full and it was over 1/2 when we left with more cars pulling in.

Meanwhile everyone at the walmart was exceptionally helpful, all the shelves were full, it didnt look like a war zone. Tons of employees working, multiple employees asked if we needed help(thats never happened in my entire life) , they had a new choctaw school bus parked outside, choctaw police car parked outside and the officer out of his car walking around, actually had real checkout lines open.

Fast forward to once Williams is gone, its going to turn into any other walmart where there will be 1 or 2 lanes open, you wont be able to find any employees, shelves will be half stocked, and any employee you see will avoid all eye contact. If the service we received today was the real walmart I would be a fanboy even with them killing local business, but its not and we all know whats going to happen 6-12 months from now once the local businesses have thrown in the towel.

Your being optimistic, it will look look that way in a month. They probably brought in people from Bentonville just for the initial opening. lol

No one wants to work at Walmart because the pay sucks. They have a hard time keeping good people.

Walmart is just following their employment model. They open with 350 employees and over the next 6 months 100 of them will and quit and not be replaced. After that the store will be operated with 250 people just like the 1,600 other Walmarts.