''After controversy, Choctaw to finally get its Walmart
Construction is set to begin within the next two weeks as legal disputes head to mediation over Choctaw Town Square development.
By Brianna Bailey Modified: September 19, 2013 at 1:00 pm • Published: September 18, 2013

CHOCTAW — Construction on a Walmart Supercenter here is set to begin after a developer's feud with city officials bogged down progress on the 39-acre Choctaw Town Square development.


A crew from Concrete Construction in Norman pours concrete roads inside the development area Tuesday. Work on Choctaw Town Square development has begun again although the city and developer are still feuding in court. Photo by Jim Beckel, The Oklahoman. Jim Beckel
Work on the Walmart on NE 23 near Henney Road is set to begin in the next in the next two weeks, and the store will likely open its doors in spring or summer 2014, Choctaw City Manager Roger Nelson said.

The additional sales tax revenue the new Walmart will bring will help the city to fund projects like a new city sports complex, he said.

“What our financial advisers have told us is that the banks need to see that Walmart going up to get that funded,” Nelson said.

The Walmart also will lure other new retailers to the surrounding area, he said.

The city has poured about 5,000 cubic yards of concrete at the Choctaw Town Square site over the past few weeks to prepare for construction on the new Walmart, Choctaw Mayor Randy Ross said''

- After controversy, Choctaw to finally get its Walmart | News OK (http://newsok.com/after-controversy-choctaw-to-finally-get-its-walmart/article/3884299)

Developer sues Choctaw's mayor, city manager for defamation | News OK (http://newsok.com/developer-sues-choctaws-mayor-city-manager-for-defamation/article/3940985)

This lawsuit seems like the developer is fishing for a reason to try and cover his butt after he was exposed as screwing over the people of Choctaw. I hope the judge can see through this thin veil of crap and then award some damages in the mayor and manager's favor.

They should all be sued for calling it a Town Center. In my opinion the term "Town Center" invokes a certain mental image that this development is totally incapable of fulfilling and was only used to produce that mental image for the purposes of getting it approved. That is fraud to me and should be prosecuted.

I was recently driving around Choctaw a few weeks ago and I saw that a Wal-Mart was going up and being built.

New Walmart seems to be coming along and it's supposed to be open in July according to Choctaw Times.

Choctaw Times - Choctaw Times - 4/16/14 (http://www.mustangpaper.com/editionviewer/?Edition=8677cd8a-b671-4e2e-9c02-5fb271f091c1&Section=0)

I can hardly wait.

I can hardly wait.

Okay - I have to ask. Are you being sarcastic?

No.

Okay - I have to ask. Are you being sarcastic?Kerry, I'm sure if you lived out in area where it takes 30 minutes or so to the nearest grocery store, you'd be happy for this as well. While I'm disappointed in the development and not a fan of another Walmart, I can understand where MFracas83 is coming from.

I can hardly wait.How long does it take to get to the nearest grocer?

It depends on traffic. I live at I-40 and Choctaw and the nearest grocery store is nine miles away at the Douglas Crest.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

Yeah... I can understand that

Or, there's the Williams Foods at 23rd and Choctaw Rd (about 8 miles away)
Or, there's the Country Boy at 29th and Harrah Rd (about 9 miles away)
This is NOT 30 minutes to the nearest grocery store.
I get that this will be an improvement for some, but weren't people aware of what was out there when they moved ... out into the middle of nowhere?

Depends on how you define grocery store. If you've ever seen the places you mention Dubya, you wouldn't be comparing those to the Douglas Crest.....or a WalMart. It's like comparing the Norman Crest to the original Crest on Reno. Not the same.....

I get that this will be an improvement for some, but weren't people aware of what was out there when they moved ... out into the middle of nowhere?

People want to live in the country for the peace and quite - and then get excited when the Walmart SuperCenter shows up. Of course, in a few years the will need to move further out so they can have the peace and quite again. That in a nutshell is the difference between urban and suburban. Every new urban person enhances the experience of current urban people and every new suburban person decrease the experience of the current suburban people.

That in a nutshell is the difference between urban and suburban. Every new urban person enhances the experience of current urban people and every new suburban person decrease the experience of the current suburban people.wrong. I do not feel that way. There's a difference between suburbanites who want to live in suburbia and people that want to live on the fringe of the city with little people.

wrong. I do not feel that way. There's a difference between suburbanites who want to live in suburbia and people that want to live on the fringe of the city with little people.

Yes, but only in the number of people it takes to make them want to move.

Yes, but only in the number of people it takes to make them want to move.

No not in all cases….. Sometimes it’s about a desired life style…. In our area many people enjoy having space enough to keep horses and other things that need a little more land….. While at the same time being close enough to the big city to have a good job and enjoy some big city amenity’s….
If you want to live in a big city high rise go for it. It’s called freedom.

So what happens ou48A when the Walmart Super Center comes in and your neighbor sell off his 5 acre land and they put 5 house on it, and your next neighbor sells off his 5 acres and they put 7 houses on it, and then someone buys up 100 acres and they drop in a 330 house subdivision? How long do you stick around before it starts feeling "too crowded". This is what is going to happen to Choctaw.

Wouldn't you like to move to the country - and stay in the country without having to move again? You are supporting the very thing that is destroying why you moved there in the first place.

So what happens ou48A when the Walmart Super Center comes in and your neighbor sell off his 5 acre land and they put 5 house on it, and your next neighbor sells off his 5 acres and they put 7 houses on it, and then someone buys up 100 acres and they drop in a 330 house subdivision? How long do you stick around before it starts feeling "too crowded". This is what is going to happen to Choctaw.

That is already happening without the Walmart. I would say the Walmart is the direct result of the influx of new subdivisions in that area.

wrong. I do not feel that way. There's a difference between suburbanites who want to live in suburbia and people that want to live on the fringe of the city with little people.

Do you mean "few" people, instead of "little" people? or should I be insulted?
So these suburbanites who want to live in suburbia -- are they the same NIMBYs who don't want grocery stores to move into their area in Edmond?
Did they move to Choctaw, Oklahoma (with an estimated 1,676 employees in the city of Choctaw, per the city's own fact sheet) thinking there was a lot of amenities out there? Why did they move there? to get away from the hustle and bustle that Wal-Mart will bring?
I simply cannot get my mind wrapped around that concept.
One does not build a bear trap, secure their ankle in the bear trap and then (with a clear mind) complain about the bear trap.
If you can't get the analogy, substitute the words "food desert" for "bear trap."

So what happens ou48A when the Walmart Super Center comes in and your neighbor sell off his 5 acre land and they put 5 house on it, and your next neighbor sells off his 5 acres and they put 7 houses on it, and then someone buys up 100 acres and they drop in a 330 house subdivision? How long do you stick around before it starts feeling "too crowded". This is what is going to happen to Choctaw.

Wouldn't you like to move to the country - and stay in the country without having to move again? You are supporting the very thing that is destroying why you moved there in the first place.So what happens is that smart people buy enough land and at a distance far enough out that they don’t face that situation. Some are not smart enough to see what coming and make mistakes but they often eventually sell their land for a large capital gain and move on to greener pastures or by the time the Wal Mart comes they move to the old folks home with a lot of happy memories.

A lot of good post from JTF in this thread. I live in eastern ok county and we've had neighbors who cheered this walmart and the loves truck stop, etc.

I don't get it. We all paid alot of money to buy a larger parcel of land, the expenses of upkeep on it, the daily expense of getting kids and yourself to work and school.

And then you want to say we need a mcds or grocery store open up 1/2 a mile from your house because you don't like driving?

Why not just live in any other part of the city or any other suburb that already has all of those things? Is this Choctaw Walmart going to be so much greater with better merchandise than the already existing Walmart just a few miles down the highway in Spencer (which is a really new and nice Walmart), or leaps and bounds better than the i40 and sooner Walmart, or the Walmart on 240? Is mcdonalds going to make better burgers for a new location than the old location a few miles away, is the gas station going to have better gas?

Save yourself the enormous daily commute, the enormous cost in gas, and buy a house next too all of those things if you want them convenient to your house. Or don’t move out to the country and then complain about you not having a place to buy crap at the drop of a hat.

Because next stop is - this place is too crowded, lets move further out. Man I wish I didn’t have to drive 10 minutes to get a burger, I need some crap at Walmart because I cant make list and I don’t want the hassle of driving for 15 minutes. Yay Walmart is opening up soon and we are getting another mcd’s and subway. This place is too crowded.

So what happens is that smart people buy enough land and at a distance far enough out that they don’t face that situation. Some are not smart enough to see what coming and make mistakes but they often eventually sell their land for a large capital gain and move on to greener pastures or by the time the Wal Mart comes they move to the old folks home with a lot of happy memories.
This makes no sense and you should feel dumber for saying it.

I'll respond to this absurdity once I can get to a computer. There is nothing but bias on here and neglecting the this does not have to be bad and can be very good for the town.

All I will say for now is, if you want country and don't want to move - go out to the panhandle, western oklahoma, southeastern oklahoma, south western oklahoma.... I know people that have lived there throughout their entire life and haven't even seen a single home to up around them.

If you want country and don't want development, 50-100 miles within a major metro area isn't the place for you. You could even locate 50-75 miles away from the core and you probably won't ever see anything developed around you.

I'm in class right now, but when I get out, I'll respond with more detail, even though most won't respond as it always seems to be when I really make my case to defend suburbs which I have done in the past here and no one was able or bothered to attempt and dispute any of it.

I'll respond to this absurdity once I can get to a computer. There is nothing but bias on here and neglecting the this does not have to be bad and can be very good for the town.

All I will say for now is, if you want country and don't want to move - go out to the panhandle, western oklahoma, southeastern oklahoma, south western oklahoma.... I know people that have lived there throughout their entire life and haven't even seen a single home to up around them.

If you want country and don't want development, 50-100 miles within a major metro area isn't the place for you. You could even locate 50-75 miles away from the core and you probably won't ever see anything developed around you.

I'm in class right now, but when I get out, I'll respond with more detail, even though most won't respond as it always seems to be when I really make my case to defend suburbs which I have done in the past here and no one was able or bothered to attempt and dispute any of it.

Please don't respond with more absurdity. If you want to live close to a McDonalds or Wal-Mart, then MOVE there. Not the other way around.

This makes no sense and you should feel dumber for saying it.its pretty clear what he is saying. You want country and have it stay that way, move out.... way out. Not 30< miles from a major metro and expect it to stay country forever.

JTF said he wants to be able to buy a country home and never have to move because the surrounding area becomes developed, well I have news for you: YOU CAN!!!!!

Please don't respond with more absurdity. If you want to live close to a McDonalds or Wal-Mart, then MOVE there. Not the other way around.i expected that typical move closer to where you want crap. I'll respond in a couple hours with reason and balance.

i expected that typical move closer to where you want crap. I'll respond in a couple hours with reason and balance.

How is that "crap"? Is it not more logical for a person who want's a supercenter (averages from 100K to 250K square feet PLUS a monstrous parking lot) closer to them to move their (1K - 2.5K) square feet residence?

This makes no sense and you should feel dumber for saying it.

So you hate the very idea of freedom and rights of individual’s mistakes and all to choice how and where they live.
You sir are the stupid one and very extremely so, along with the guy you gave you a like for your post!

its pretty clear what he is saying. You want country and have it stay that way, move out.... way out. Not 30< miles from a major metro and expect it to stay country forever.

JTF said he wants to be able to buy a country home and never have to move because the surrounding area becomes developed, well I have news for you: YOU CAN!!!!!

The urbanites are too hard headed to ever understand that as long as the individual has freedom in this nation there is no way they are ever going to be able to tell people where they should live.
Live and let live…. They hate the very idea….. They are self-centered people who won’t ever stop telling everyone how they think other people should run their lives…….It’s good they are a very tiny minority of the population and that very few people give their way of thinking any serious thoughts.

The urbanites are too hard headed to ever understand that as long as the individual has freedom in this nation there is no way they are ever going to be able to tell people where they should live.
Live and let live…. They hate the very idea….. They are self-centered people who won’t ever stop telling everyone how they think other people should run their lives…….It’s good they are a very tiny minority of the population and that very few people give their way of thinking any serious thoughts.

That's a great attempt at misdirection. It has nothing to do with freedom. Well, actually, it has EVERYTHING to do with freedom. Can you imagine how much more free people would be if they weren't slaves to their cars (or car notes)? Can you imagine just how much more free people would be if their cities collected property taxes in the most efficient manner so that people who lived within their city limits were provided many more services at an extremely lower cost? Can you imagine just how much more free people would feel if they were permitted to live, work, shop and play in the same structure at a reasonable cost or were free to live 30 minutes away from it if they wanted to? What if these guys who currently live in Choctaw moved there to be 30 minutes away from a Wal-Mart but still were able to afford a reasonable commute to their job on Tinker or the CBD? Now, their freedom (to live 30 minutes away from a Wal-Mart) is being restricted. Guess they'll have to move! Guess they've got that freedom. Hey! Maybe those NIMBY's have it right after all!
It's a shame that they're a very tiny minority of what must be an incredibly ignorant population who can't see that these urbanites (that's not what they are, at all -- even those who love and live in the rural and sub-urban transects are adherents to new urbanism) have it right, after all. It's those who live in but don't love the rural and sub-urban transects that keep inviting in the Wal-Marts!
What evs. Its apparent to me that those who don't understand new urbanism seem to think there's only three types of humans: the city drudges, the unibombers and Ward Cleaver's family.

That's a great attempt at misdirection. It has nothing to do with freedom. Well, actually, it has EVERYTHING to do with freedom. Can you imagine how much more free people would be if they weren't slaves to their cars (or car notes)? Can you imagine just how much more free people would be if their cities collected property taxes in the most efficient manner so that people who lived within their city limits were provided many more services at an extremely lower cost? Can you imagine just how much more free people would feel if they were permitted to live, work, shop and play in the same structure at a reasonable cost or were free to live 30 minutes away from it if they wanted to? What if these guys who currently live in Choctaw moved there to be 30 minutes away from a Wal-Mart but still were able to afford a reasonable commute to their job on Tinker or the CBD? Now, their freedom (to live 30 minutes away from a Wal-Mart) is being restricted. Guess they'll have to move! Guess they've got that freedom. Hey! Maybe those NIMBY's have it right after all!
It's a shame that they're a very tiny minority of what must be an incredibly ignorant population who can't see that these urbanites (that's not what they are, at all -- even those who love and live in the rural and sub-urban transects are adherents to new urbanism) have it right, after all. It's those who live in but don't love the rural and sub-urban transects that keep inviting in the Wal-Marts!
What evs. Its apparent to me that those who don't understand new urbanism seem to think there's only three types of humans: the city drudges, the unibombers and Ward Cleaver's family.

If people want to choose a life that causes them to be slaves to their cars and live 20 miles from the Burger King….. let them….. That’s their right in a free country and some people can easily afford it.


When you say ”Can you imagine” …….What you and others are pushing is a Utopian society that isn’t even a realistic outcome for a very significant % of our nation’s population….!

How is that "crap"? Is it not more logical for a person who want's a supercenter (averages from 100K to 250K square feet PLUS a monstrous parking lot) closer to them to move their (1K - 2.5K) square feet residence?Ok, look at this.

Could I move to McDonalds or a Walmart if I wanted to be closer to one? Sure. What is close for you might be far for someone else or vice versa. Close is a broad term.

Secondly: if your logic was followed of just move closer, than everyone would live downtown to be closer to work, school, and their entertainment which wouldn't require large highways and everyone would live right on top of each other. Something you and every other urbanist seems to push and attempt to force on people no matter what position they take. They(you) may try to say that isn't the case, but it's bullsh!t. I know it, you know it - I wasn't born yesterday man.

I can't tell you how many times I've said this on here, I WANT OPTIONS! Someone living in Choctaw shouldn't be deprived of a particular store, notably a good grocer, because you think they should just live closer to what they want. That is not fair and you are trying to take away options from people.

Look at how prosperous Dallas is; it is also sprawled out. Houston, Atlanta, Jacksonville, L.A., etc.... you better tell all of those cities, don't build any new stores or expand services because if people want those things, they need to just move closer. See how popular you get.

If you and Sid Burgess want to live on top of each other in a concrete jungle, great. But don't deprive me and other people who want a nice, peaceful, suburban setting with large setback filled in with green vegetation, and served by large 6 lane arterial roads and wide highways.

Let California fund it's 100 billion dollar HSR and let Texas finish it's 50 billion dollars worth of highway projects. Last I checked, more people are moving to Texas than California. I don't blame that on the HSR either, I applaud Cali for building it. My problem is when people get their panties in a wad for a 5 billion dollar highway project screaming "IT'S TOO MUCH". Yes, I understand it cost less mile per mile. My point remains valid.

This Walmart is being built for the City of Choctaw. It will be used by thousands of people and provide money back to the economy. Walmart is one of the largest single tax payers out there. If you have any personal vendetta against Walmart, don't hate the player, hate the game. The game is people who elected the city council who approved the store to be built.

You can't refute the facts. The facts are, this will be great for the city of Choctaw. A grocer is built to serve existing housing, not the other way around. The sheer fact JTF even suggest Walmart is being built for houses that aren't even there yet is a joke. I'm 20 years old and I know as much to know that isn't the case. Don't even try that with me.

The city of Choctaw can have typical neighborhoods like this

http://upstreammatters.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/PIC-One_Subdivision-Lawns_PhotoCredit-Al-Cambrone.jpg

and still be a prosperous, attractive city to live in.

It needs balance. The core or "downtown" of Choctaw should be urban and making up a small percentage of the city land wise with the majority making up what I posted above with mixed-use developments such as Chisholm Creek Development. The city will be built how they want it to.

I always find it funny how people like JTF point to Europe of how to build sustainable, well, last I checked, the economy in Europe isn't doing so hot. The economy in the horrible, awful, cookie cutter, suburban cesspool known as Texaaaaaas on the other hand though...... do I have to say it?

I speak for what I believe in. I speak my mind. I want places like Seattle here in OKC to make people like Sid happy and have great pedestrian corridors. I want a greenbelt like the one in Minneapolis here in OKC. I want light-rail here in the city to serve people who either can't afford cars or just don't want them. I also happen to love cities in Europe and even want to experience living in them one day.

I also want people like you to have places they love and enjoy about our city. I want it to prosper and boom, but just as we need/want a dense, urban core with mass transit, we also need/want a vast highway network serving suburban communities.

Now if you don't want to pay for those highways, than the majority of the city shouldn't have to pay for a streetcar most will never use.

So what happens ou48A when the Walmart Super Center comes in and your neighbor sell off his 5 acre land and they put 5 house on it, and your next neighbor sells off his 5 acres and they put 7 houses on it, and then someone buys up 100 acres and they drop in a 330 house subdivision? How long do you stick around before it starts feeling "too crowded". This is what is going to happen to Choctaw.What happens within 30> miles of a major metropolitan area? Hopefully the city grows.


Wouldn't you like to move to the country - and stay in the country without having to move again? You are supporting the very thing that is destroying why you moved there in the first place.Ummmmmmm..... you can???? This country is not small, there is huge abundance in every state where there is vast farmland that will likely never be touched by development or subdivisions.

Take a guess where these photos were taken from...

http://www.vacantnewjersey.com/blog/entry/moodna_viaduct/photos/4.jpg

http://www.mikiemetric.net/USAPics/New%20Jersey/NJ-Rt.57-2.jpg

http://web.nmsu.edu/~dwdubois/elmer.jpg

If people want to choose a life that causes them to be slaves to their cars and live 20 miles from the Burger King….. let them….. That’s their right in a free country and some people can easily afford it.


When you say ”Can you imagine” …….What you and others are pushing is a Utopian society that isn’t even a realistic outcome for a very significant % of our nation’s population….!

I think you're sort of making my point with your post.
If people want to choose a life that causes them to be slaves to their cars and live 20 miles from the Burger King, let them. If, however, people move in next to them and say, "You know what we need here? We need a Burger King," how are they to fight back? Become the hated NIMBYs? That person that says they need a closer Burger King should move closer to the Burger King, instead!
Also, when you describe my statements as unrealistic, why is it unrealistic? Shouldn't we shoot for the stars rather then being satisfied with enjoying a night light as entertainment? The ability for a city to provide services is contingent upon it's ability to garner income. The city that can best garner income has properties that have achieved their best possible use regarding property value and has expenditure requirements that are the least onerous. Countless people that contribute to this forum have mentioned how hard it is for the City of Oklahoma City to provide adequate services to its residents because it's so miserably spread (sprawled) out. If it's an unobtainable utopia to hope that the City of Oklahoma City to provide adequate services to its residents, then please consider me a dreamer. I'll tell you, though, that one of the benefits of adhering to a new urbanism philosophy in managing a municipality, is an increased revenue base to the city by allowing every piece of property to reach it's maximum potential.

That's a great attempt at misdirection. It has nothing to do with freedom. Well, actually, it has EVERYTHING to do with freedom. Can you imagine how much more free people would be if they weren't slaves to their cars (or car notes)? Can you imagine just how much more free people would be if their cities collected property taxes in the most efficient manner so that people who lived within their city limits were provided many more services at an extremely lower cost? Can you imagine just how much more free people would feel if they were permitted to live, work, shop and play in the same structure at a reasonable cost or were free to live 30 minutes away from it if they wanted to? What if these guys who currently live in Choctaw moved there to be 30 minutes away from a Wal-Mart but still were able to afford a reasonable commute to their job on Tinker or the CBD? Now, their freedom (to live 30 minutes away from a Wal-Mart) is being restricted. Guess they'll have to move! Guess they've got that freedom. Hey! Maybe those NIMBY's have it right after all!
It's a shame that they're a very tiny minority of what must be an incredibly ignorant population who can't see that these urbanites (that's not what they are, at all -- even those who love and live in the rural and sub-urban transects are adherents to new urbanism) have it right, after all. It's those who live in but don't love the rural and sub-urban transects that keep inviting in the Wal-Marts!
What evs. Its apparent to me that those who don't understand new urbanism seem to think there's only three types of humans: the city drudges, the unibombers and Ward Cleaver's family.You're wrong. Dead wrong. OU48a is right. If you look at the requirements and "rules" of new urbanism, it's almost like the planner of the community would be a dictator.

That is not fair and you are trying to take away options from people.

It's odd that you say I'm trying to take away options from people when you say the people living in Choctaw (who are probably there on purpose -- I'm pretty sure they weren't forced to move to some FEMA camp called Choctaw) should have their peaceful little hamlet disturbed by a Wal-Mart SuperCenter (because that's the be-all-end-all-acme of 'Murican culture?!?) and those who don't like it should move to the PANHANDLE!?!?!?! Who's trying to take away options from people?!?!?! I'm pretty sure that those who want to live 5 seconds away from a Wal-Mart still have that option in lots of other places!
Stop it with the outrageous statements. Take a deep breath and step away from the keyboard and think some more about who's losing what with the construction of this new Wal-Mart SuperCenter.

You're wrong. Dead wrong. OU48a is right. If you look at the requirements and "rules" of new urbanism, it's almost like the planner of the community would be a dictator.

And yet, the city plays the part of a dictator already, with zoning and fees, etc. New urbanism isn't the new totalitarian regime. Quit acting like we really have any real freedom in the first place. Do you like Bricktown? Do you think that just happens serendipitously without any rules? Should Randy Hogan have been allowed to build just whatever crap he wanted to on land he was virtually given by the city?

It's odd that you say I'm trying to take away options from people when you say the people living in Choctaw (who are probably there on purpose -- I'm pretty sure they weren't forced to move to some FEMA camp called Choctaw) should have their peaceful little hamlet disturbed by a Wal-Mart SuperCenter (because that's the be-all-end-all-acme of 'Murican culture?!?) and those who don't like it should move to the PANHANDLE!?!?!?! Who's trying to take away options from people?!?!?! I'm pretty sure that those who want to live 5 seconds away from a Wal-Mart still have that option in lots of other places!
Stop it with the outrageous statements. Take a deep breath and step away from the keyboard and think some more about who's losing what with the construction of this new Wal-Mart SuperCenter.Did you even read what I posted? Perhaps I need to copy and paste it.

You keep saying stop with the outrageous statements, but you (a) don't refer to which statements you're talking about and (b) provide any insight as to why they're outrageous. You seem to love using broad terms to attempt and act like you're providing some kind of evidence but in reality, is the exact opposite. Go back through and tell me exactly what is outrageous and I'll respond.

Did you even read what I posted? Perhaps I need to copy and paste it.

You keep saying stop with the outrageous statements, but you (a) don't refer to which statements you're talking about and (b) provide any insight as to why they're outrageous. You seem to love using broad terms to attempt and act like you're providing some kind of evidence but in reality, is the exact opposite. Go back through and tell me exactly what is outrageous and I'll respond.

the part I quoted. "take away options from people."

And yet, the city plays the part of a dictator already, with zoning and fees, etc. New urbanism isn't the new totalitarian regime. Quit acting like we really have any real freedom in the first place. Do you like Bricktown? Do you think that just happens serendipitously without any rules? Should Randy Hogan have been allowed to build just whatever crap he wanted to on land he was virtually given by the city?There's a difference between guidelines and denying buildings to be built in a certain district vs. a building style that only accepts one single method of style through-out the entire community and has rules like every single fence surrounding a park being Wrought iron and 3 1/2 feet high or something like that. I mean seriously....

New Urbanism (http://www.newurbanism.org/)

Have a look at that. I'm at work right now or I'd provide you with the link(which I'll try to find if you can't) but there is a huge PDF document defining EXACTLY what you can and can't do when building in a new urbanist community. There are no variances or exceptions... it's their way or the highway.

Where are the pictures from?

There's a difference between guidelines and denying buildings to be built in a certain district vs. a building style that only accepts one single method of style through-out the entire community and has rules like every single fence surrounding a park being Wrought iron and 3 1/2 feet high or something like that. I mean seriously....

New Urbanism (http://www.newurbanism.org/)

Have a look at that. I'm at work right now or I'd provide you with the link(which I'll try to find if you can't) but there is a huge PDF document defining EXACTLY what you can and can't do when building in a new urbanist community. There are no variances or exceptions... it's their way or the highway.

So, I'm no new urbanist priest or acolyte, but what is it that you want to happen that you think new urbanism prevents?

the part I quoted. "take away options from people."You are taking options away from people.

You're saying live near or "not far away from" which isn't special except to each person. So what is close for me, might be far away for you.

I will say this again. If you want people to live closer to where they want to be, which varies, so you can't define that.... it has to be everything they want/need/desire. Food, play, work, education, etc....... you want those things, what would you say? Just live closer? How could you do that with suburban layout? You can't. It takes too much space. I know that and you know that. If you didn't want it to take too much space, you'd urbanize it - removing the suburban lifestyle. That is removing an option for someone.

It isn't as simple as "just move closer". You either know that(which I think you do) or you aren't putting too much thought into it. You need to actually think about what you're saying here.

You are taking options away from people.

You're saying live near or "not far away from" which isn't special except to each person. So what is close for me, might be far away for you.

I will say this again. If you want people to live closer to where they want to be, which varies, so you can't define that.... it has to be everything they want/need/desire. Food, play, work, education, etc....... you want those things, what would you say? Just live closer? How could you do that with suburban layout? You can't. It takes too much space. I know that and you know that. If you didn't want it to take too much space, you'd urbanize it - removing the suburban lifestyle. That is removing an option for someone.

It isn't as simple as "just move closer". You either know that(which I think you do) or you aren't putting too much thought into it. You need to actually think about what you're saying here.

and yet you're saying "just move to the panhandle."

So, I'm no new urbanist priest or acolyte, but what is it that you want to happen that you think new urbanism prevents?I don't think it prevents anything besides someone who wants a suburban lifestyle living inside a new urbanism community; to which I'd respond with: move to suburbia.

I actually think new urbanism is great for some cities and I am almost finished with a master plan with some renderings I'm giving to Charles Lamb(mayor of Edmond) that would essentially turn the entire perimeter of downtown Edmond into a large new urbanism community. Everything inside of Kelly-2nd Street-Bryant-Danforth would be pure new urbanism served by streetcars, bike lanes, large bike corridors, a couple of gondolas, and ped. friendly features.

and yet you're saying "just move to the panhandle."Yes.... If you want a pure country life-style that won't ever be threatened by development, move further out. It doesn't have to the panhandle, but the option is there and I'm not trying to take it away.

Where are the pictures from?New Jersey.

If people want to choose a life that causes them to be slaves to their cars and live 20 miles from the Burger King….. let them….. That’s their right in a free country and some people can easily afford it.


When you say ”Can you imagine” …….What you and others are pushing is a Utopian society that isn’t even a realistic outcome for a very significant % of our nation’s population….!

But that's where you're wrong. No one can easily afford that in reality. It's so heavily subsidized that they're not having to afford it. It's afforded for them, if that makes sense.

What happens within 30> miles of a major metropolitan area? Hopefully the city grows.

Ummmmmmm..... you can???? This country is not small, there is huge abundance in every state where there is vast farmland that will likely never be touched by development or subdivisions.

Take a guess where these photos were taken from...

http://www.vacantnewjersey.com/blog/entry/moodna_viaduct/photos/4.jpg

http://www.mikiemetric.net/USAPics/New%20Jersey/NJ-Rt.57-2.jpg

http://web.nmsu.edu/~dwdubois/elmer.jpg

I hate to rain on your parade, but if something is farmland, it has ALREADY BEEN DEVELOPED.

To take a step back, I think I’m getting drawn away from what was my original position before it was parsed and argued.
My original opinion, by the way, is that there’s nothing wrong with Wal-Mart going to Choctaw. This whole development was a wonderful concept that eventually became just a Wal-Mart SuperCenter. There’s nothing wrong with a Wal-Mart SuperCenter, but it could have been so much more (and still included a better planned Wal-Mart SuperCenter), but it’s not. The post I put up that seemed to attract so much anger was that the residents of Choctaw will not be gaining much in the way of a great store so much closer. This will cut off about 15 minutes off their drive time to get groceries, etc., and the associated traffic may even make it so that it will add to their drive time to go anywhere else – and for what? Wal-Mart groceries?!? Ask bchris02 what’s so great about Wal-Mart groceries? Oh, wait, he thinks anything farther than a 10 minute drive for groceries (when you VOLUNTARILY moved to that location in the first place) makes your residence location a food desert! You want that kind of freedom? to make incredibly stupid residence location choices? Great! THAT’s what American military might defended – that and the right for the Westboro Baptist Church to say and do whatever it is they do in the name of freedom of speech. Keep in mind that you exercised that freedom in the name of suburban sprawl and it has some other costs: increased municipal infrastructure, so be prepared to pay more in taxes to the city or get less services from them. If the Wal-Mart SuperCenter is being done optimally, it’ll make more money for the city than the infrastructure costs.
Here’s some history up thread.

Well this is not going to be a convention shopping area. They've eliminated the strip mall element from the shopping area. They're rebuilding a vintage town square, like many small towns in Oklahoma and Texas have. I think it's great that Choctaw is being proactive and is really trying to lure commercial development in a sustainable, well-planned way. Something that won't turn into the abandoned strip center you mentioned.

Bradshaw is a really good developer who is usually involved in interesting things, and he believes in urban development (particularly downtown OKC), so he's probably involved in this. I think Moore and Yukon, both strip mall central, should look at what Choctaw is doing with this.

I only moved here a few years ago and I love what I know about Choctaw, hope it keeps growing yet maintains its charm. I have just always been amazed that I grew up in rural southeastern Oklahoma on a farm and we had city water (actually a member of a rural water district, but its still city water) and we moved here (what i call the city) and now have a water well. I had chickens, cows, caught our own fish for the fish fry every weekend, never swam in a pool but did in lots of horse tanks, and never had a water well till i moved to the city. I actually have a great job, live in a very nice home in a very upscale neighborhood in Choctaw (my family can’t believe that my shop out back is bricked), but i will always be from the country. I enjoy Choctaw every day and hope to live here for a long time, but would like to see some shops and dining options open up around here in time.

We are looking into building a home in choctaw, coming from a small town, I am a little worried that this town square IS going to turn Choctaw into a new mwc, which we dont want to live in. We want to stay with the small town atmosphere, low traffic, low crime, and a little bit of a drive away from a highway. Should we look into other small towns instead?

I may be a bit biased but living on the outskirts of Harrah I find it to be a good balance between city and town. You get all the town perks like sewage, trash and water, plus a police dept and fire dept along with a nice rural feel since it is a very small town. But the nice thing is it's barely ten minutes from Choctaw, fifteen-twenty minutes to Midwest City and also twenty minutes from Shawnee.

Just kind of a heads up.

Maybe this project was taking so long because they knew this news was about to be confirmed.
Walmart planning to build Supercenter in Choctaw, developer says | News OK (http://newsok.com/walmart-planning-to-build-supercenter-in-choctaw-developer-says/article/3622507?custom_click=headlines_widget)

Walmart plans to build a 150,000-square-foot Supercenter in the new Choctaw Town Square development, the developer announced this week. The city of Choctaw and Walmart Real Estate Business Trust entered into a purchase agreement for a site in the northwest corner of the development. The new store will bring jobs and tax revenue to the city, although specifics weren't available Friday. Walmart did not respond to requests Friday to confirm plans for the store. The Supercenter is to open in the spring of 2013, according to Choctaw Town Square LLC. It is part of a larger effort to develop the city's downtown district. Mayor Randy Ross said the development includes a new city hall, landscaped green space, a water park, retail and eating establishments.

Sorry,but this is STUPID!Choctaw doesnt have the population base for a WM and there is allready one just West on 23rd and Douglas.Are they hoping to draw from Jones,Harrah,Nicoma Park?

I agree this is ridiculous, MWC WM is ten miles if that away from Choctaw and while Choctaw could use a state of the art grocery store, Harrah has a perfectly fine Country Boy Market that is a very large supermarket.

I feel for Jeff Williams of Williams grocery and Danny Boyle at Country Boy, they've both been so kind to the communities around us that I pray the business they've built will be maintained.

I live here in Choctaw, and am really excited about this project. I would LOVE to see a grocery store- maybe a wal-mart market or something other than Williams. Especially down near the Phillips 66 on Choctaw Road and 29th. All of us over here would love to be able to run up to a grocery store of some kind and be back within a few minutes rather tha 45 mins of driving round trip to williams or target. BUT back to the Town Square project...

As a resident of Choctaw, I would love to see some more places to eat and some shopping. We really need to beef this place up. Eventually a casino... a dog track... something to bring in some business- but this is a good start. I'm so glad to see something finally happening around here. And by the way- a community pool would be great too!

Anyway...Now I have gotten off track. I love Choctaw. I want this place to grow. Property values can go up (now that I have a house here.. :)

WOW! This project is HORRIBLE! The suburbs continue to have no character and push the use of the automobile with parking as the most important aspects of the sites.

They can try to make cool colors to make the site look good, but it is still cookie cutter sprawl!

Would you rather all the people in Choctaw commute 20-30 miles to get their groceries?

That has nothing to do with the layout of the development. Honestly by that logic, you would want something that is able to be walked to so you don't even have to get in a vehicle at all, but alas, I'm sure this development will not be friendly to pedestrians.

Wait what? That is the only alternative? That's funny.

I live in this area and im kinda bitter sweet about it all. Yeah its closer, yeah its more convienent, it will be good for tax dollars for the city BUT.....

I think most people who live in this area moved here to get away from the city and didnt want to move to one of the other suburbs moore, norman, edmond, yukon that ALL feel like your still living in the city. I've always thought why have a 30 minute plus commute to work to live in the exact type of neighborhood, etc that you would get in the city. I've lived in edmond before and its slightly sad the more and more developed this side of town gets the less rural it feels. I dont need a 7/11 on every corner, i like stop signs instead of lights, and i dont need a strip mall or a walmart every couple of miles. If i want that i could go to any of the other 15 walmart shopping districts in the city.

People like convenience and it will drive up house and property values, but sometimes the quality of life or lifestlye you like gets lost in the process.

This whole plan is sh!t, i've said it. Between all the Political tripe in the city office, and now the City of Choctaw is trying to catch up with what every other community is doing around it. Can't hate them for wanting better, but don't send in a planner who just doesn't know what they're doing or talking about. Pipe dreams Choctaw, pipe dreams.

I'm not against the idea of Choctaw having a Wal*Mart. What I am against is POOR PLANNING.

Choctaw is the perfect place to start walkability discussions. Clearly they are already thinking along those lines because they already put in two roundabouts and have a decent foundation started along Main St. Then they screwed that up and approved this project. I'm not saying, don't build the project, I am saying move it 3,500 feet east.

I'm not against Choctaw having this development. You say it's better than nothing, but why start out on the wrong foot with poor planning.

Kerry's point is not nonsense. Urbanity has nothing to do with the population of a place; it's all about how buildings are oriented, with infrastructure being built on the human scale.

Urban simply means the presence of people versus rural land; people have to get these negative notions of huge places that are dirty out of their minds when they hear the word urban.

From Choctaw itself: this (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Choctaw,+OK&hl=en&ll=35.494412,-97.270954&spn=0.003407,0.01929&sll=33.471898,-112.658376&sspn=0.5258,1.234589&oq=choctaw&t=h&hnear=Choctaw,+Oklahoma&z=16&layer=c&cbll=35.494404,-97.270952&panoid=2bhF9eK2WJPwkWDo-7lqzw&cbp=11,346.14,,0,2.5) is more urban than this (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Choctaw,+OK&hl=en&ll=35.493137,-97.27443&spn=0.003459,0.01929&sll=33.471898,-112.658376&sspn=0.5258,1.234589&oq=choctaw&t=h&hnear=Choctaw,+Oklahoma&layer=c&cbll=35.49313,-97.274438&panoid=cQiRShyRrXrFhEoR6PddBA&cbp=11,16.7,,0,-5.61&z=16) just a few blocks away.

Yes. If you don't want to live in "Urban" don't move to the "City". The City of Choctaw, needs to recognize that it is harder to maintain City level of services when properties are used so poorly. Low-density is just more expensive. Dramatically so.

The founders of Choctaw certainly didn't build it in a rural way.
Choctaw County Historical Society Photos (http://www.okgenweb.org/~okchocta/photos/pence_scans/historical.htm)

CHOCTAW (http://digital.library.okstate.edu/encyclopedia/entries/C/CH048.html)

A community emerged on the east eighty acres of his land, a postal designation for Choctaw City was issued in early 1890, and town lots were surveyed and laid out. When he relinquished title in 1892, a village of approximately 112 and a thousand inhabitants of the surrounding township supported twenty businesses.
In 1892 with only 112 residents that had 20 businesses. Today they have over 11,000 people and I'll bet less than 20 businesses. Progress?

I hate to rain on your parade, but if something is farmland, it has ALREADY BEEN DEVELOPED.Ok... you know what I mean. Rural settings is what I getting to. Whether it be farmland or a forest... the option is there...

here is an example of rural Jersey

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRwbcNPtXqBNvCn6nHgeNSSw18C7zk05 EYp872khrq6gTwVoMUd

To take a step back, I think I’m getting drawn away from what was my original position before it was parsed and argued.
My original opinion, by the way, is that there’s nothing wrong with Wal-Mart going to Choctaw. This whole development was a wonderful concept that eventually became just a Wal-Mart SuperCenter. There’s nothing wrong with a Wal-Mart SuperCenter, but it could have been so much more (and still included a better planned Wal-Mart SuperCenter), but it’s not. The post I put up that seemed to attract so much anger was that the residents of Choctaw will not be gaining much in the way of a great store so much closer. This will cut off about 15 minutes off their drive time to get groceries, etc., and the associated traffic may even make it so that it will add to their drive time to go anywhere else – and for what? Wal-Mart groceries?!? Ask bchris02 what’s so great about Wal-Mart groceries? Oh, wait, he thinks anything farther than a 10 minute drive for groceries (when you VOLUNTARILY moved to that location in the first place) makes your residence location a food desert! You want that kind of freedom? to make incredibly stupid residence location choices? Great! THAT’s what American military might defended – that and the right for the Westboro Baptist Church to say and do whatever it is they do in the name of freedom of speech. Keep in mind that you exercised that freedom in the name of suburban sprawl and it has some other costs: increased municipal infrastructure, so be prepared to pay more in taxes to the city or get less services from them. If the Wal-Mart SuperCenter is being done optimally, it’ll make more money for the city than the infrastructure costs.
Here’s some history up thread.Than I can agree with you on that. This development could be a lot better no doubt. I thought you were against Choctaw getting a grocery store. That is at least what it sounded like to me.

But that's where you're wrong. No one can easily afford that in reality. It's so heavily subsidized that they're not having to afford it. It's afforded for them, if that makes sense.Ok, but couldn't the same be said for mass transit? No one in reality could afford them, that is why those forms of transit to, are subsidized.

Ok, but couldn't the same be said for mass transit? No one in reality could afford them, that is why those forms of transit to, are subsidized.

I'm not sure it could, actually. You bring up a fair point in that all transit is subsidized, but my point is I think when you take into account the entire system, auto-centric transit probably costs the most overall while also being the most unsustainable.

But that's where you're wrong. No one can easily afford that in reality. It's so heavily subsidized that they're not having to afford it. It's afforded for them, if that makes sense.

If I understand your post, you are saying something that I have heard others thrown around without any real proof that I have seen. How does the urban subsidize the suburbs? I live in rural OKC and there was until recently not one fire station within 5 miles. We now have a new one 2 miles away. This was built after Rio De bella developed which is a huge neighborhood of smaller lots. When I lived in heritage hills, there were 5-6 stations within 5 miles. I very rarely see an OKC officer out here unless he is running radar on SW 104th. How do you figure in the ticket revenue? The road to my house is one single 2 lane road that also services FFA. (The road in my actual neighborhood as well as the street lights were paid for and are maintained by our HOA) In Heritage Hills, there were roads everywhere and generally only used by those residents whereas the road to my house is a section road. I have no city water nor do I have city sewer where in HH, I had all of those. I don't see how someone can really make the claim that one subsidizes the other without making some pretty big assumptions. There may be studies showing one way or another but they had to make assumptions to base their studies on. Do you attribute I-44 to me? It was there before my house was built and it is used to bring milk and food as well as other supplies into the urban area so how do you divide that? Do you take into account and how would you take it into account that my property taxes are 8x what I was paying in HH? How do you factor that the homes in Rio De Bella are worth far more than homes in many areas of OKC that are denser? How do you factor in that due to the price of the homes, the people have more income (Comparing to the same amount of land in any of the neighborhoods along SW 29th Street) which means they spend more which means they pay more in consumption taxes. How do you balance that with the consumption taxes paid by those living in HH or Crown Heights.



One point also that I think people are missing is that people don't move to the outlying areas to necessarily be away from services. We move because we won't more space than a driveway between us and the neighbor. We move because we want our kids in a different environment or better schools. We move because we are tired of having to worry about drive through crime. We move because we want our kids to be able to ride their bikes further than 5o ft without being on a major road. We move because we don't want the ghetto bird flying over our house every other night. If you develop a gated neighborhood of 5 acres lots in the heart of OKC that were reasonable priced....sign me up to buy one as I miss being close to downtown and the action but at this stage in my life, the quality of life for my kids is more important. (some may feel that being raised in an urban environment is a better quality of life and I am not knocking that...it is merely opinion)

Thus, I am excited about the I44 corridor being developed,,,hell yes. I am excited that they put a Crest at SW 104th, yes. Am I excited that they put a McDonalds there, yep but wished it was Carl Jrs for the breakfasts. Am I excited that Victoria's is opening yes. I chose the neighborhood we live in partially based on the fact that it was only 2 miles from interstate and that I predicted the area would commercially develop.

One point also that I think people are missing is that people don't move to the outlying areas to necessarily be away from services. We move because we won't more space than a driveway between us and the neighbor. We move because we want our kids in a different environment or better schools. We move because we are tired of having to worry about drive through crime. We move because we want our kids to be able to ride their bikes further than 5o ft without being on a major road. We move because we don't want the ghetto bird flying over our house every other night. If you develop a gated neighborhood of 5 acres lots in the heart of OKC that were reasonable priced....sign me up to buy one as I miss being close to downtown and the action but at this stage in my life, the quality of life for my kids is more important. (some may feel that being raised in an urban environment is a better quality of life and I am not knocking that...it is merely opinion)

Thus, I am excited about the I44 corridor being developed,,,hell yes. I am excited that they put a Crest at SW 104th, yes. Am I excited that they put a McDonalds there, yep but wished it was Carl Jrs for the breakfasts. Am I excited that Victoria's is opening yes. I chose the neighborhood we live in partially based on the fact that it was only 2 miles from interstate and that I predicted the area would commercially develop.

What youre saying makes no sense.

I know exactly the area you live in and I work right by your house.

You cant have a rural lifestyle away from the crime, congestion, ghetto bird flying over and then turn right back around and say that you want a walmart, crest and mcdonalds by your house with easy interstate access. All those amenities bring crime, congestion and the exact opposite reason you had for moving there. What you did is took out a 30 year mortgage to move to an area that gave you a 5 year window before the whole area sucks and you are left with a house on a big treeless lot surrounded by apartments, crime, and crappy schools.

I used to live about a mile away from your neighborhood and look at the crime in the whole westmoore area over the last 20 years. It went from being quite, rural, and safe - to a dense high crime area because people LIKE you who dont get it and are more worried about having a carls jr closer to their front door than maintaining the integrity of the rural setting.

The whole area was 2 lane roads, farms, small subdivisions, no stop lights and little to no traffic. People move there or build houses because 'they love it so much and it so quite' - then turn around and bitch and petition that they need more shopping, more mcdonalds and a more starbucks then say wait what happened to the area. What happened is that you got exactly what you asked for.

What youre saying makes no sense.

I know exactly the area you live in and I work right by your house.

You cant have a rural lifestyle away from the crime, congestion, ghetto bird flying over and then turn right back around and say that you want a walmart, crest and mcdonalds by your house with easy interstate access. All those amenities bring crime, congestion and the exact opposite reason you had for moving there. What you did is took out a 30 year mortgage to move to an area that gave you a 5 year window before the whole area sucks and you are left with a house on a big treeless lot surrounded by apartments, crime, and crappy schools.

I used to live about a mile away from your neighborhood and look at the crime in the whole westmoore area over the last 20 years. It went from being quite, rural, and safe - to a dense high crime area because people LIKE you who dont get it and are more worried about having a carls jr closer to their front door than maintaining the integrity of the rural setting.

The whole area was 2 lane roads, farms, small subdivisions, no stop lights and little to no traffic. People move there or build houses because 'they love it so much and it so quite' - then turn around and bitch and petition that they need more shopping, more mcdonalds and a more starbucks then say wait what happened to the area. What happened is that you got exactly what you asked for.

You know, I make a sensible post expressing my opinion without attacking anyone and respecting other opinions....

I did get exactly what I asked for which is development going in around me. There is crime everywhere but there is a lot less crime here than where I used to live. Walmarts don't cause crime. How close is the Walmart to NE 23rd and Kelly? No crime in that area. We go to the Walmart in Tricity sometimes.....that whole area is just riddled with crime!! What you don't get is that it isn't about rural...It is about not having super density where the home lots are measured by ft instead of acre. It's about not having your neighbor literally a driveway away on both sides. its about having enough room to have a pool and a workshop and still have some grass in the back yard. If I wanted truly rural...I would have moved much further out, bought 40 acres so I could control the space immediately around me instead of buying some little lot and thinking my world around me is never going to change.

Not sure where you lived but I don't see West Moore being a high crime area. I especially don't see the property values going down. In fact, they have increased in the last 7 years we have lived in our house. I bought a house in an area that anyone with common sense would realize was going to develop. If you have a chip on your shoulder because your property plans didn't turn out the way you wanted...I'm sorry. Maybe you should have bought further out.

You can have Mc Donalds, Walmarts etc and not have the crime. My mother in law lives in neighborhood by 104th and May and parents live of N 27th street (Moore's version of 104th) by I 35and they have all the nearby conveniences and their neighborhoods are very safe. I had far more problems in HH than they have had. There are happy mediums inbetween the extremes.