This is true, I cringe every time I see OLD pictures of OKC and compared to today... (MAPS included) we've got nothing on the city of yesterday.

Enter the car = the exit of the feet and thus enter the larger waistlines of the citizens.

I'm not making an excuse for it, but the reasons why things were made in a ceratin why explain why you don't see it that way now. Choctaw is not and will never be urban. You could throw another 4 million people in OKC and it still won't be.....no more than MWC, DC, Mustang, Yukon or any other burb will be....that's why they're suburbs. We can fight the fact that cars exist, but they will not go away. Yes we should attempt to make urban developments more pedestrian friendly, but to say that one in Choctaw should be....i'm just not sure i buy into it.

Now that being said, i still feel like it's a bad design. One thing it does not do is lend itself to walking from one store to another. HOWEVER, like i've said before, it depends on what the plans are for those developments. If you're putting a dentist in one buidling and a taco bell in another on the other side of the siteplan....do you think they really NEED to be pedestrian friendly? Until we see what the wishlist for the masterplan has for those pad sites, we can't really say much. There's a big difference depending on what you plan to put in (which isn't very often what actually ends up there).

How does a WalMart fit into that plan though? Yes you can squeeze in some very small shops, but even the typical clothier will not fit in one of the spaces from those 100 year old buildings. If you're only looking to keep it uber local, then yes that works just fine. But if you're looking to expand to and sort of corporate world, that's just not going to cut it...not to mention any large retail options.

The prblem is WalMart isn't challenged to come up with a better store design. They build 1000 parking space and plop a 140,000 sq ft store in the middle of it. Then they do that 6000 times across America. It takes zero effort on their part to do that kind of site plan. However, they could build the way Macy's, Montgomery Wards, Kress, and others did for a hundred years (and the way Target is doing in some places today). For lack of a better example, look at something along the lines of Main St in Disney World. What appears to be multiple individual stores from the 'street' is really just one big store inside.

http://www.mouseplanet.info/gallery/d/145919-2/MainStreet1.jpg

The problem isn't combining large retailers and small towns, it is keeping the buildings in scale. WalMart (and others) don't try because no one tells them they have to. WalMart has one mission - profit. Their 'live better' slogan is just that - a slogan. They don't actually mean it.

...and no, I am not againt profit. However, I am against short-term profit at all costs.

Some of you people are high.

Drive out here and look around. Traffic will never be a problem...Unless of course, you move WalMart to a tiny plot and put roundabouts in front of it.

This isn't urban. This isn't suburban. This is extra-urban. People don't walk here. At all. When they do, they get hit by cars.

Why doesn't WalMart make pretty stores for your edification? So they don't have to charge $5 for a can beans like Macy's would, if they sold them. Or $9, like Disney would.

facepalm.jpg

You know how people say "Don't Edmond my Norman" and things of the like? Well...Here's mine..."Your urban/suburban planning doesn't work here, nobody gives a crap. WalMart could have dirt floors, people simply.do.not.care". And since we live here and you don't? Piffle.

In short? Choctaw has 99 problems, and WalMart aint one of them.

Shorter? PIFFLE

^Remember this post in 10 years

Some of you people are high.

Drive out here and look around. Traffic will never be a problem...Unless of course, you move WalMart to a tiny plot and put roundabouts in front of it.

This isn't urban. This isn't suburban. This is extra-urban. People don't walk here. At all. When they do, they get hit by cars.

Why doesn't WalMart make pretty stores for your edification? So they don't have to charge $5 for a can beans like Macy's would, if they sold them. Or $9, like Disney would.

facepalm.jpg

You know how people say "Don't Edmond my Norman" and things of the like? Well...Here's mine..."Your urban/suburban planning doesn't work here, nobody gives a crap. WalMart could have dirt floors, people simply.do.not.care". And since we live here and you don't? Piffle.

In short? Choctaw has 99 problems, and WalMart aint one of them.

Shorter? PIFFLE

I totally agree. And i feel like people are trying to label Choctaw with something that it will never be....urban. and JustTheFacts, i can quote that 50 years from now as well.

I should point out that even in MWC, which is a much larger population center, more developed economic engine, and about as opposite of Choctaw as you can get....developments are still not created as pedestrian friendly. Town Center being the newest and largest, isn't very pedestrian friendly. The long line of big box stores isn't very friendly for that. I've walked from Lowes to Kohls before....but most people don't. And that's the point....Most people drive from one store to the next...even from Target to Kohls....and that's not gonna change.

^Remember this post in 10 years

OK. I'll eat my shoe if a new WalMart creates an insurmountable traffic conundrum in the thriving central suburban core of Choctaw, OK.

And you can just eat yours now, because you suggesting that it should have been planned with roundabouts in front of it makes me think that you're either 1) less logical than Taser branded underpants or 2) trolling.

Regardless of what we discuss on here, the pro-sprawl crowd is going to win because this is already being built. In 10 years when you hate what your community has become atleast you will know what happened to make you not like it.

Regardless of what we discuss on here, the pro-sprawl crowd is going to win because this is already being built. In 10 years when you hate what your community has become atleast you will know what happened to make you not like it.

Tell you what, I'll keep my happy ass out of the urban sprawl threads and you keep yours out of CHOCTAW threads? M'kay? Deal?

Oh, and "pro-sprawl" crowd? WTF does that even mean. If I'm not against it I'm for it?

That's called a false equivalence, a logical fallacy.

So again. You suck at logic, or you're a troll.

This is an urban sprawl thread. Once again, no one is saying don't grow. Just grow in an efficient and economically affordable way that limits the future tax exposure of the people of Choctaw.

Wouldn't it be better to have this:

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/orange3.jpg

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/orange2.jpg

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/orange1.jpg

instead of this:

http://geteconow.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/958d0e8e64wal-mart-parking-lot.jpg http://www.naturalhomeandgarden.com/uploadedImages/articles/daily/2010/03/wal-martWEB.gif

This is an urban sprawl thread. Once again, no one is saying don't grow. Just grow in an efficient and economically affordable way that limits the future tax exposure of the people of Choctaw.

Wouldn't it be better to have this:

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/orange3.jpg

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/orange2.jpg

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/orange1.jpg

instead of this:

http://geteconow.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/958d0e8e64wal-mart-parking-lot.jpg http://www.naturalhomeandgarden.com/uploadedImages/articles/daily/2010/03/wal-martWEB.gif

Do you live in the real world?

Oh yeah, it would be SO MUCH better to spend 30 minutes and circle the buildings 10 times to find a parking spot somewhere on the street everytime I need to go buy a cart full of groceries. And, then once I've purchased the groceries I get to carry 20 bags worth to my car that's parked "who knows where" to load them in my car...

To answer your question... I would take option 2 EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK over option 1... WHICH IS WHY I LIVE IN THE SUBURBS. The LAST thing I want to do is try to live my current lifestyle in an urban setting, just because YOU think it's more aesthetically pleasing or more like the lifestyle you seem to think everyone MUST live.

When I go to bricktown for entertainment, I understand it's an urban setting and that's how it works there. I have no problem with that. But, despite how you feel about it, urbanization isn't what everybody wants. I LIVE in a suburb because I like the way things are in the suburbs. PERIOD. People that live in Choctaw don't sit around and wish their community was more urban. Why is that so difficult for you to comprehend?

I guess I am just old enough to remember when small town America actually meant 'small' 'town' 'America'.

Some of you people are high.

Drive out here and look around. Traffic will never be a problem...Unless of course, you move WalMart to a tiny plot and put roundabouts in front of it.

This isn't urban. This isn't suburban. This is extra-urban. People don't walk here. At all. When they do, they get hit by cars.

Why doesn't WalMart make pretty stores for your edification? So they don't have to charge $5 for a can beans like Macy's would, if they sold them. Or $9, like Disney would.

facepalm.jpg

You know how people say "Don't Edmond my Norman" and things of the like? Well...Here's mine..."Your urban/suburban planning doesn't work here, nobody gives a crap. WalMart could have dirt floors, people simply.do.not.care". And since we live here and you don't? Piffle.

In short? Choctaw has 99 problems, and WalMart aint one of them.

Shorter? PIFFLE
Epic post man

Tell you what, I'll keep my happy ass out of the urban sprawl threads and you keep yours out of CHOCTAW threads? M'kay? Deal?

Dude your post keep getting better and better. I totally agree with you

Everybody could use more Form based design in their concepts and plans.

JTF - if you're talking about small town america, why are you discussing urban design? Small town American was not urban....hello. Small Town America had a main street where all retail was in some small area. Urban design negates that possibility because reatil is spread all over the city.

And I would agree with the other posters. The next time you have your kids with you and need to buy groceries, you'll be headed to a big box...be it homeland, crest, or walmart. I 100% guarantee you don't shop at a place like in your pictures. You can want all you want, but the practical reality is people don't go to places like that. So if you want to make any money, you build the way people want it....and they don't want big boxes squeeze into small spaces.

Now, those small spaces have their place for smaller businesses. Automobile Alley is an example of that...even these weird little "Town Whatevers" what are springing up all over america have them on a limited scale. They just happen to also include big box as well as an anchor. From the leasing company's perspective, it's much easier to survive if you have a large tenant in there too. And a lot less work because each one of the smaller tenants feel like they are as important...and on some level they are. But it's much easier to manage fewer large clients than a million smaller ones....and more stable to your checkbook.

JTF - if you're talking about small town america, why are you discussing urban design? Small town American was not urban....hello. Small Town America had a main street where all retail was in some small area.

Because that is urban design; what else do you think it's referred to as? There is no such thing as small town design, just urban design on a smaller scale (nothing to do with the population or geographic size).

Towns were built along a general principal of concentration of goods and people from the beginning of civilization until the late 40's. I think you'd be surprised how many small towns emulated the layout of larger cities because they recognized what made them "civilized" and that's what they were trying to create here on the frontier: a new civilized region.

JTF, I think it would be appropriate if we started posting example of small towns in Oklahoma with nice urban design. Ones that first come to mind for me are Guthrie, Pawhuska, Bartlesville, and here are some dark horses: Wynnewood and Marlow. Look at their downtowns on google maps streetview, and even their neighborhoods with sidewalks and large mature trees.

I think the problem is a misunderstanding of the term "urban" so maybe we can clear that up. When a building is constructed it's place on the surface of the Earth dictates its relationship to other items already on the surface of the Earth. When the structure is placed adjacent to an existing structure that is urban design. When the structure is placed at some distance from other structures that is suburban design. So the only question that needs to be answered is, what is that distance? That is answered by the open space (if any) between the structures.

If the open space created is defined by the buildings around it (kind of like walls) then the area leans 'urban'. If the open space completely surrounds a structure so it is a monolith on the landscape then that area leans 'suburban'. It has nothing to do with population, building height, land use, ethnic make-up, etc. It is simply the relationship between buildings and open space.

It is safe to say that currently Choctaw has no established downtown, despite having something called Main St. However, Choctaw used to have a downtown on Main St. This project would have been the prime opportunity to re-establish that downtown. The fact that this project is call Choctaw Town Center, which is used to envoke the mental image of a downtown, means that people crave that, even if they don't know they do. As shown below, with a simple reconfiguration of the site plan they could have actually accomplish what the name implies they are trying to accomplish.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/Image1.jpg

This is an urban sprawl thread. Once again, no one is saying don't grow. Just grow in an efficient and economically affordable way that limits the future tax exposure of the people of Choctaw.

Wouldn't it be better to have this:

instead of this:


No.


I was not going to reply and just walk away (and I might regret actually replying still) but the lack of factual opinions being tossed around are astounding.

The notion that if you don't have a Wal-Mart that you are somehow forced to carry 20 bags around the block is false. Hyperbole much?

The notion that small towns are not urban is false. The grid, as nearly every town was laid out, is urban design. The reason blocks and streets are laid out that way is because they support and promote an efficient use of land that can be recycled and improved upon over time. From a more sub-urban to urban. When cities were planned, the drawings were oftentimes done WITH buildings drawn in to illustrate a vision for the city. So yeah, Choctaw planners had a vision or borrowed a template that is very urban.

Sub-urban isn't land that isn't urban. It just isn't urban completely. It is a "sub" form of it, but it should follow basic rules that allow the evolution to urban. Failed "sub-urban" isn't urban in any context because it lacks the ability to mature into more urban(see productive) use-cases over time. Whether that be the way the roads are laid out or the utilities that support it. Or more likely, zoning laws. Sub-urban does not equal un-urban.

I just moved out a neighborhood in Seattle where there were thousands of kids, no huge parking lots, and guess what, we had Safeway, Bartell Drug Store, Trader Joes... need I continue? Those businesses were more than happy to be there and in fact, are expanding in some cases by adding height to make two story stores and housing above. Use case, meet better use case.

Please, I don't care if you simply don't want to ever live in place that promotes efficient land use. But if you moved into a city that has a grid, my position is simply that by design, that city was supposed to promote and encourage productive uses of the land. New developments on the outskirts of a city/town don't do that. In fact, they degrade the potential that exists. As a former councilman, I simply see the role of local officials to at least not subsidize inefficient land uses but to instead relax contemporary zoning laws that restrict better, mixed uses, and to promote healthy economic development activity. Businesses will follow if there is demand.

We lived without a car, with 3 kids, among hundreds, if not thousands, of families doing exactly the same. Please stop claiming to know what life would be like without Wal-Marts if you actually don't know. It makes you sound incredibly uneducated.

Billions of people around the world don't have access to Wal-Marts and live in fairly urban "towns" and yet don't starve because they lack parking or have to carry too many grocery bags.

The funniest part about the some of these positions taken is that there is an subtle opinion that without "sprawl" (which is what JTF, myself, and others are trying to prevent) people actually have fewer choices. Like their life is subpar. I can't tell you how happy we were to be able to walk to work, walk to the grocery store, walk to 5 parks, and never once wish we owned a car. Automobile Alley could be a place you could live, work, recreate, and shop all in one place. The notion that that isn't possible is simply, flat-out, wrong. Ever since I got here, people have not stopped asking me if I am going to buy a car. In Seattle, I got asked that this many times: 0. The difference is mostly cultural and based on a lack of exposure to successful neighborhoods.

But you're not preventing it. You're preaching to the wrong choir. We don't want to live urban. We don't even want to live suburban. You may want to live where you can walk places, but we don't. For a variety of reasons.

It also seems like you might be projecting a bit on lack of exposure to other ways of life. Just saying.


The second notion that is flat-out wrong is that people don't want to live in such a place. Not going to elaborate here. It simply isn't true. Ask any real estate agent (perhaps outside of Choctaw)

Nobody is debating that. We know people want to live there (as evidenced by the tens of millions of people that do). But not the people that live in Choctaw. We like our space, we like places we go to have space. THAT'S WHY WE LIVE HERE.

So I ask, what type of place do you want to live in? If the pictures that JTF appeal to you, I beg you to imagine (pretend if you have to) being able to live in places like that, eat well, have a vibrant social life... because you can.

If not, I'm very cool with that. But then don't come out and say the way that I live is either not possible or is somehow miserable. I certainly don't think your way of life is miserable. Just not for me.

See above...We have no desire to live like you desire to live...I want a vibrant social life like I want an extra toe, and the only thing I need to eat well is a grocery store.

I don't see anybody bagging on the way you want to live, only you and JTF picking apart something that the people it directly impacts don't give two shakes about. Nor is anybody saying it's not possible. It's just a decidedly bad idea HERE.

On that note though, I do firmly believe that we have a problem with sprawl and I am going to fight to keep it from becoming the only or primary option. I'll do this because I am sincerely worried about our kids and our elderly. I loved seeing very old people still being able to walk to the grocery store, and have a great, active social life. Having grown up in a very small town here in Oklahoma, I know that isn't possible -- at least not to the scale. I volunteered and delivered "meals-on-wheels" and it is a sad sight. Our grandparents and great-grandparents are paying the price dearly. They survive through by getting hot meals delivered to them because they can't actually go shopping anywhere nearby. They can't stand it when you leave because they haven't had people to talk to. It really breaks my heart. And very few people are connecting the dots. I ask you to at least consider them as you choose how to support your community. Perhaps you get the Wal-Mart but you also fight to attract some smaller grocery store that is in the heart of town that is reachable by a short walk. Of course the challenge will be to attract a store because you don't have the population density to support one probably.

And the cycle continues and the result is places that only some people can live for a period of time, and if you are "stuck"... if you have to live your whole life there... you either live out the end in a nursing home or hope to God your meal makes it.

If you think any of that is false, I will gladly stop what I am doing and run a meals-on-wheels route with you to show you it isn't. Or take you to a few nursing homes where very smart, capable people are forced to live because they simple "can't take care of themselves" anymore. Many times because they can't reach what they need to survive. You can claim it isn't, but that simply wouldn't be the truth.

Apologize in advance. I recognize that my reply might come off as a little pretentious. I am fighting what I took as fairly offensive claims with a passionate response and am not perfect. I'll do my best to stay civil if the conversation continues. I'd actually like to continue the conversation mostly because there is a lot that wasn't said on both sides that could be fruitful ground to cover. But I'd like to give folks a chance to reply to what has already been said first.

Don't apologize, it's the internetz.

Just keep in mind you're arguing with the people that live, work, and shop in the very place you're presuming to know so much about. We don't think the same way you do about "urban" things. We consider a trip to Midwest City "going into town". You want urban planning in Choctaw? Good luck. People that live here don't care for it.

Here's something neat just for Just the Facts:

0800 traffic looking in the direction of the WalMart that's going up...If you think traffic will be bad in 10 years on a 5 lane (I'm including the turn lane) road due to a WalMart...Tell me why EVERY OTHER WALMART IN TOWN doesn't have a 6 lane highway of it's own? It will be juuuust fine.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i199/imawingnut/2c6cb9c1.jpg


See the metal building amongst the trees? That's City Hall.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i199/imawingnut/93d47fa8.jpg

If the 5 lanes aren't needed, then why did they spend the money making it 5 lanes?

I think the problem is a misunderstanding of the term "urban" so maybe we can clear that up. When a building is constructed it's place on the surface of the Earth dictates its relationship to other items already on the surface of the Earth. When the structure is placed adjacent to an existing structure that is urban design. When the structure is placed at some distance from other structures that is suburban design. So the only question that needs to be answered is, what is that distance? That is answered by the open space (if any) between the structures.

If the open space created is defined by the buildings around it (kind of like walls) then the area leans 'urban'. If the open space completely surrounds a structure so it is a monolith on the landscape then that area leans 'suburban'. It has nothing to do with population, building height, land use, ethnic make-up, etc. It is simply the relationship between buildings and open space.

It is safe to say that currently Choctaw has no established downtown, despite having something called Main St. However, Choctaw used to have a downtown on Main St. This project would have been the prime opportunity to re-establish that downtown. The fact that this project is call Choctaw Town Center, which is used to envoke the mental image of a downtown, means that people crave that, even if they don't know they do. As shown below, with a simple reconfiguration of the site plan they could have actually accomplish what the name implies they are trying to accomplish.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/Image1.jpg

They called it "Choctaw Town Center" because they had to call it something, it's in Choctaw, and "Sooner *Everything*" was taken. Not because anybody craves it. They could have called it "Frank's Gangrene Toe's Fish, Gun, Steak, and Blowing Things Up Emporium", and the only thing people here would complain about was how long they tried to remember the name before giving up and calling it "Frank's".

Again, you guys are trying to shove a round peg in a square hole. This is the sticks. Not to mention Choctaw isn't going to spend the money to invent a thriving city core...Nor is WalMart.

If the 5 lanes aren't needed, then why did they spend the money making it 5 lanes?

*shrugs*

Because it's a state highway? Honestly, I have no idea.

How is traffic Sooner in Midwest City...Right at that WalMart/Home Depot/Many other stores area just off a cross-country interstate? Oh, it's just fine with probably 100 times the traffic Choctaw will ever see. Right. That's because Sooner has 8 lanes of traff....Oh no. My bad. It's only 4 lanes.

OGTS, you're not addressing the social implication points that Sid brought up though. So are you just saying, "That's the way we like it and damn be the consequences to our elderly or children who cannot be independent"?

You sound like someone who has lived in the area for awhile. I would venture to guess that your grandparents or the first generation of citizens in Choctaw didn't want to have to venture long distances for necessities. Personally, I think when people claim the need to have open space that it is a defense mechanism of not wanting to deal with the problems of the world or social issues. Interaction with other humans on a human scale produces results and solutions instead of isolationism and fear.

From the developers website:

http://choctawtownsquarellc.com/Home.html


Choctaw Town Square, LLC has partnered with the City of Choctaw to Design and Develop the "New Town Square", which is located on 39.30 acres of land the City bought on N.E. 23rd Street. The City has a Mayor and City Council that has taken aggressive steps to secure the future of Choctaw and it's constituents. Choctaw Town Square, LLC and their team of Architects, Engineers, Contractors, Marketing, and Real Estate professionals are excited to be involved in the re-creation of the "New Town Square". It is a much needed development for this Bedroom Community. The "New Town Square" will allow a local place for their community to shop, eat, and spend quality time with their families, while enjoying the "Home Town Feeling" of their Community.


Orignal proposal:

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/choctaw1.jpg

Someone cared at some point. Not sure why they don't care now. Maybe they should start caring again.

Again, you guys are trying to shove a round peg in a square hole. This is the sticks. Not to mention Choctaw isn't going to spend the money to invent a thriving city core...Nor is WalMart.

It's not about Choctaw specifically so much as just trying to create an awareness of larger issues.

Thanks for the quick reply. And like I said, I completely respect your opinion, and choice.

My original comments on this thread were more of the "bummed out" nature that Choctaw didn't use this development as an opportunity. But like you and others have shown, this doesn't sound like a community that wanted it.

Again, appreciate the replies. Not sure what you mean by the projecting comment but I will re-read my comments and internalize them with yours.

On that note, congratulations on your new Wal-Mart.

This is the paragraph to which I was referring:


The funniest part about the some of these positions taken is that there is an subtle opinion that without "sprawl" (which is what JTF, myself, and others are trying to prevent) people actually have fewer choices. Like their life is subpar. I can't tell you how happy we were to be able to walk to work, walk to the grocery store, walk to 5 parks, and never once wish we owned a car. Automobile Alley could be a place you could live, work, recreate, and shop all in one place. The notion that that isn't possible is simply, flat-out, wrong. Ever since I got here, people have not stopped asking me if I am going to buy a car. In Seattle, I got asked that this many times: 0. The difference is mostly cultural and based on a lack of exposure to successful neighborhoods.

I didn't see anybody saying that life was bad in urban areas, just that it's not how we want to live. Maybe I missed that part though.

The part that I made bold is what I was talking about specifically. In a thread where you're telling people your ideas on how you think they should live, based on your experiences, then throw out there their lack of exposure when they suggest that you need a car...I say that you may have that a bit backwards and that you're the one who might be underexposed a tad. They're the ones that live here and KNOW that it's hard to get by without one. It's getting better, and I hope that it gets to a point where nobody asks you that anymore.

OGTS, you're not addressing the social implication points that Sid brought up though. So are you just saying, "That's the way we like it and damn be the consequences to our elderly or children who cannot be independent"?

You sound like someone who has lived in the area for awhile. I would venture to guess that your grandparents or the first generation of citizens in Choctaw didn't want to have to venture long distances for necessities. Personally, I think when people claim the need to have open space that it is a defense mechanism of not wanting to deal with the problems of the world or social issues. Interaction with other
humans on a human scale produces results and solutions instead of isolationism and fear.

You're right, I didn't address the social implications that Sid brought up...Mainly because I don't have an answer. It's a complicated issue that I've never researched. It's not going to be fixed by cramming a WalMart into a tiny space, moving City Hall, and spending millions on 100 year plan for a real town center in Choctaw OK...I can tell you that.

And WOW...You assumed a whole LOT wrong.

I grew up in Moore. I've lived in downtown San Diego as well as downtown Denver (suburb too). I've also lived in SE OKC, Mustang, and now Choctaw. When I say I prefer it, it's because I prefer it. I've only lived here for around 3 years (and nobody in my family that I know of has ever lived here). Defense mechanism? Whatever. Do I SOUND like I have a problem dealing with issues? I'm quite the vocal SOB with my opinions. Fear? I've got a fear of my wife, that's about it. Maybe demon-possessed wood chippers, but they're loud and thereby easy to avoid.

Good observation and catch. Perhaps I was projecting a little.

If I could rephrase that, I'd say that I don't want to tell people how they should live. I'd like to protect the dignity of how I prefer to live. Specifically from what I saw as, factless claims.

I grew up in a town almost exactly like Choctaw, so I do get the difference. As a councilman in Haskell, I certainly get more exposed to opinions like the one you hold. One citizen actually voiced the opinion that they didn't want the city to grow at all. Not a single new business, he said.

I'll try in future responses to not take the conversation so personal and falsely assume it is personal where it isn't.

Nah, take it personal when it's directed at you. Live a little. Lash out online.

No wait...You used your real name. Don't do that.:D

And if you don't want to tell people how to live, why are you in this thread doing exactly that? I mean...You talk about how great living in a thriving urban core is...That's fine, sell it baby! But when people say "that's not how I want to live", and this thread is about a pretty rural WalMart (of all things), forcing the issue is going to go nowhere fast. That's like a Mormon knocking on the door of a Jehovah's Witness and trying to convince them how great it will be to live as a star.

Yeah, hyperbole much :D

Lol! I tried (maybe failed) to separate the issue. I was trying to correct statements about how difficult it was to live 'urban' and second to shed a little light on the fact that Choctaw certainly could pull off something urban if it wanted to.

The thread didn't start off about Wal-Mart if I recall. Which is why I subscribed to it. It was about a new development that to me, was intriguing because of the "rural", yet urban nature of it.

Build urban baby, build urban!

There, happy? ;-)

It's all good...And I have to admit that I didn't recall the beginning of the thread, I hadn't looked at it in probably a year (whenever my last post on it was), all I saw was people bemoaning sprawl and talking about people needing to walk more in a pretty rural area. And I had an extra 10 minutes, so I went to town, so to speak.

And yeah! Build urban! In OKC! It's nice to visit...And to take pictures of! ;-)

Out of curoisty - what do you like about living in Choctaw?

My space. I'm noisy, and I like quiet. So...In order to not offend people with loud noises while not being offended by their loud noises when I'm done, I moved to a place where there's a massive air buffer between our air tools and noisy toys.

I'm also a car guy, so I wanted space to build a workshop. I now have a place to make all the loud noises I want at all hours without worry of waking up somebody's baby or giving them a bad night.

How would a compact development centered around Main St negativley impact you more than a WalMart shopping center at 23rd and Henney?

How would a compact development centered around Main St negativley impact you more than a WalMart shopping center at 23rd and Henney?

Me personally? Well, I don't like walking for one. It hurts too much.

And there's really no point in making it compact in this area. You've yet to give me a good reason why it should be compact other than your opinions on how other people should conduct their lives and OMG URBAN SPRAWL.

You don't have to walk. You can still drive your car. I am just trying to find out why you prefer one over the other because clearly you are not indifferent on the subject. Also, if you are shopping at WalMart walking can't be an issue because the stores are huge, with an even bigger parking lot :)

If my wife hands me a grocery list that's more than one row long, I make two trips to the store, a day apart. I'm in pain after about 30 minutes of walking.

However, my reasons are pretty irrelevant when you still haven't given me a valid reason why they should cramp it down and deviate from their norm (see: spent a lot more money than they need to in order to service the area) when they don't have to.

Actually, the urban design we favor is cheaper to build, maintain, and support. That's why for 15,000 years of Human civilization they were built that way. It wasn't until government intervention after WWII was the type of development being built now even possible. Low density development requires a massive amount of public funds to support it. Look at the land costs alone - they are taking 30+ acres to do what they could accomplish on 10 acres and they made the City of Choctaw buy the land. Taxpayer in Choctaw are already out millions of dollars before the place even opens. From a cost stand point it would have better for Choctaw to buy 10 acres and tell the developer to build a central parking deck (that could have been used by neighboring future developments so new parking didn't have to be built at all).

Oh good lord...you know what, this is the point where i just put my face in my hands and walk away. Neither side is getting anywhere here and i'm not interested in continuing an argument with a brick wall....peace out yo.

Not to mention... this is the Midwest City / Del City thread... not choctaw...

If the 5 lanes aren't needed, then why did they spend the money making it 5 lanes?

not a state highway ... a federal highway ... route 62 from New york to el paso http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Route_62#Oklahoma

because it was one of the major east west roads across the united states ... before I40 existed ... my great grandfather and grandfather owned a service station on highway 62 in harrah .. and it was a major truck route

Actually, the urban design we favor is cheaper to build, maintain, and support. That's why for 15,000 years of Human civilization they were built that way. It wasn't until government intervention after WWII was the type of development being built now even possible. Low density development requires a massive amount of public funds to support it. Look at the land costs alone - they are taking 30+ acres to do what they could accomplish on 10 acres and they made the City of Choctaw buy the land. Taxpayer in Choctaw are already out millions of dollars before the place even opens. From a cost stand point it would have better for Choctaw to buy 10 acres and tell the developer to build a central parking deck (that could have been used by neighboring future developments so new parking didn't have to be built at all).

your out of touch here ... this is such a no brainer i don't know where to start ... this will make the City of choctaw Millions and millions of taxes dollars in the next 30 years ... one of the best choices that they have made ..



and as far as land use ... the choice wasn't A or B it was A or leave the big empty land empty ..

nm

At the end of the day none of this really matters since the project is already under construction. I just hope that next time small communities think twice before making the same mistakes so many other communites have made.

Mustang Times, Walmart finalizes land purchase in Choctaw (http://www.mustangpaper.com/v2/content.aspx?ID=59093&MemberID=1586&Title=Walmart-finalizes-land-purchase-in-Choctaw)

That's odd that it was in the Mustang Times and not Eastword or something....

If you look at the heading of the web site it says Tuttle Times, Mustang Times, Minco-Union City Times AND Choctaw Times. If you want to see what Eastword says, here is the link...

Coming soon to Choctaw - Eastword News - Midwest City, OK (http://www.eastwordnews.com/main.asp?SectionID=2&SubSectionID=27&ArticleID=3645&TM=81881.8)

Choctaw Town Square is suing the city

Choctaw center developer files suit over finance plan | News OK (http://newsok.com/choctaw-center-developer-files-suit-over-finance-plan/article/3751225)

There has to be more going on with this story than is said here. You don't have something that's had this many layers to it without something weird happening after this long. What should have been a quick project has been incredibly slow.

So is this thing dead now? Sure Williams is happy about this not happening.

With a $9.6 million up front cost to the City of Choctaw I wonder how many years away the break-even point was.

Soooooo, it is dead?

If it's not dead all these suits aren't helping. Choctaw filed a counter suit against the developers.

Fraud countersuit filed against Choctaw developer - Eastword News - Midwest City, OK (http://eastwordnews.com/main.asp?SectionID=2&SubSectionID=27&ArticleID=3819&TM=84423.89)

Im actually happy about this. There is a relatively new super walmart just a few miles down the highway, we dont need another one.

I think this is sort of interesting (from the article linked, above):

"The City is also questioning transactions between AK Enterprises of NWA, owned by Eldon Blackaby, Sherry Blackaby and Kurt Blackaby. In addition, they allege that CTS has defrauded the city and has engaged in a scheme in conspiracy with AK Enterprises of NWA., BBT Investments LLC, Vision Development, LLC, Eldon Blackaby, Sherry Blackaby, Kurt Blackaby and Josh Kyles to defraud the city."

Apparently, "Choctaw Town Square LLC" is really "AK Enterprises of NWA" (trans.?: Arkansas Enterprises of NorthWest Arkansas?) and headquarted in . . . (you guessed it): Bentonville, Ark.

I wonder if Choctaw is asking for the return of the "Key To The City" (that they gave these "developers" a while back) so they don't have to change all the locks.

Historical Reference Material:
http://www.mustangpaper.com/contentitem/250435/1586/walmart-finalizes-land-purchase-in-choctaw

Suggested Reading: "The Mark Inside" by Amy Reading =)

Im actually happy about this. There is a relatively new super walmart just a few miles down the highway, we dont need another one. I understand the article to stste that Walmart is proceeding.

Well, looks th same this year as it did last year. Huge dissapointment in my mind with this project and th information being let out on it by th city.

Does anyone know what EXACTLY is going on? Is it still planned? Under construction? Canceled? Put on hole? Falling through as I type???????

The Walmart is still a go. Don't know what's happening with the rest of it.