Sorry,but this is STUPID!Choctaw doesnt have the population base for a WM and there is allready one just West on 23rd and Douglas.Are they hoping to draw from Jones,Harrah,Nicoma Park?

Incorrect!

It is not stupid. This is very common for Walmart to build within several miles of each of their own stores. You have to remember the growing population of humans, so there will always be an urgent need to build more stores to ease the stress of one store handling extreme load and wearing out quickly. Yes, there will be customers of the nearby towns and they will be very thankful of not having to use precious time and gas to reach a much further distance Walmart store.


I agree this is ridiculous, MWC WM is ten miles if that away from Choctaw and while Choctaw could use a state of the art grocery store, Harrah has a perfectly fine Country Boy Market that is a very large supermarket.

I feel for Jeff Williams of Williams grocery and Danny Boyle at Country Boy, they've both been so kind to the communities around us that I pray the business they've built will be maintained.

Ridiculous? Incorrect!

10 miles is the least acceptable distance to build another store. Just because there is a Walmart does not automatically doom a nearby business. You have to understand that it is ultimately on the smaller businesses to continue being smart and competitive in order to stay in business. If they don't do that, then they will fail completely on their own. They must move forward or die. One grand example is the town of Checotah. In that such tiny town, they have been supporting two full grocery stores for years. Several years ago, Walmart rebuilt into a huge Supercenter and to this day, the two grocery stores are still in thriving business. Checotah now have 3 grocery stores. Last year (a trip to Eufaula for New Year party), I was amazed at the low/affordable prices at Nichols compared to Walmart.

Correct!

This is a known fact for quite some time. TAFB has been doing as much as they can to keep homes and businesses far away from the area as possible. There is a deaf couple who were given incentives by TAFB to build a new home further east and part of the compensation was for longer drive distance.

I can understand why TAFB want to keep homes and businesses far away (recent example of witnessing a plane brushing the treetops at MWC's Festival of Lights). A lot of planes are flying dangerously close to the buildings and trees. I remember one plane flew dangerously low to Crest Market (Home of Rock Bottom Prices) and I could hear/feel the powerful engines along with the amazing view of the underside and the spinning engines.

However, it is ultimately up to the people and businesses for locating within such close distance. I personally think an agreement should be signed that TAFB can not be sued (the same as Sprint customers sign a contract stating they can not sue the company). Everyone choose their own risk.

Incentives can be declined/rejected, but the risk goes up. One example, MWC feels safety is below glamor when the enhanced shopping strip was built on 29th Street. The same for Del City's OnCue filled with thousands of gallons of gasoline with extreme potential to become a huge fireball inferno.

mmonroe, I just want to say once again, you are correct!

[Citation Needed]

I work on Tinker, have for quite some time, and I've NEVER heard even a whisper of these "incentives". Hell, I WISH there were some sort of incentive. I'd be on that like stink on a monkey. I love free stuff.

[Citation Needed]

I work on Tinker, have for quite some time, and I've NEVER heard even a whisper of these "incentives". Hell, I WISH there were some sort of incentive. I'd be on that like stink on a monkey. I love free stuff.

this ..

[Citation Needed]

I work on Tinker, have for quite some time, and I've NEVER heard even a whisper of these "incentives". Hell, I WISH there were some sort of incentive. I'd be on that like stink on a monkey. I love free stuff.

+1

I thought this would die on its own, but guess not.

I can assure that there are NOT any financial incentives offered to anybody. In my line of work I would aware of anything that is out there

I can understand why TAFB want to keep homes and businesses far away (recent example of witnessing a plane brushing the treetops at MWC's Festival of Lights). A lot of planes are flying dangerously close to the buildings and trees. I remember one plane flew dangerously low to Crest Market (Home of Rock Bottom Prices) and I could hear/feel the powerful engines along with the amazing view of the underside and the spinning engines.

Do you enjoy just making stuff up? lol

I live here in Choctaw, and am really excited about this project. I would LOVE to see a grocery store- maybe a wal-mart market or something other than Williams. Especially down near the Phillips 66 on Choctaw Road and 29th. All of us over here would love to be able to run up to a grocery store of some kind and be back within a few minutes rather tha 45 mins of driving round trip to williams or target. BUT back to the Town Square project...

As a resident of Choctaw, I would love to see some more places to eat and some shopping. We really need to beef this place up. Eventually a casino... a dog track... something to bring in some business- but this is a good start. I'm so glad to see something finally happening around here. And by the way- a community pool would be great too!

Anyway...Now I have gotten off track. I love Choctaw. I want this place to grow. Property values can go up (now that I have a house here.. :)

I wish there was incentive for people at Tinker to do their job. Not saying EVERYONE doesn't work, but the radar has been down for 6 years, and nobody gives a crap. Work ethic sucks, and the young guys spend all day goofing off where my husband works, and I think it's disgusting that the people in charge of them don't do anything about it. THEY would rather not have conflict, and keep doing nothing!

what radar has been down for 6 years??

just a note the pad site for phase 1 of this development is now graded and ready for the slab

X2, what radar?

As for work ethic...I work with some of the sharpest and hardest working people in my field. And I don't mean just in OKC, I mean period.

X2, what radar?

As for work ethic...I work with some of the sharpest and hardest working people in my field. And I don't mean just in OKC, I mean period.

+1 The maintenance shop workers at Tinker are as good as or better than any you'll find anywhere. Wonder how Tinker wins all those awards if nobody cares and the work ethic sucks?

I was reminded in this thread about a coworker at a previous duty station who stayed late almost every night to tip back a few brewskies with his compadres. Told his wife he had to stay late. She was convinced he was the hardest working dude in the unit and I, who usually went home on time, didn't have the same work ethic.

I have a coworker that shows up two hours early for his shift every day and begs me to take off on his off-days so he can get OT.

Personally, I think he just doesn't like his wife much.

Choctaw's first Walmart is first confirmed tenant in Town Center project
Plans for a large development project off NE 23 in Choctaw also include a splash pad, new City Hall, restaurants and other shops, according to Choctaw Mayor Randy Ross.

CHOCTAW — Dirt work is nearly complete on Choctaw Town Center, a large development project on NE 23.

Walmart is building a 150,000-square-foot Supercenter here, the first Walmart in Choctaw, a city of about 11,000 east Oklahoma City.


Other plans for the project include a splash pad, new City Hall, retail and restaurants, said Choctaw Mayor Randy Ross.



Read more: http://newsok.com/choctaws-first-walmart-is-first-confirmed-tenant-in-town-center-project/article/3697639#ixzz22VE0FrdK

WOW! This project is HORRIBLE! The suburbs continue to have no character and push the use of the automobile with parking as the most important aspects of the sites.

They can try to make cool colors to make the site look good, but it is still cookie cutter sprawl!

I like how they say and other tenants. Who are these other folks. What restaurants are talking to them, lets get the list out and see who is really coming. Tons of rumors flying, cant wait to see what really happens in the next year. Still interested to see if the Walmart on Douglas remains open when Choctaw finally is open, one rumor is that it is closing, i hope that isnt true. Hate for that one to close.

I doubt they close the one on Douglas. Isn't it still a pretty new store?

WOW! This project is HORRIBLE! The suburbs continue to have no character and push the use of the automobile with parking as the most important aspects of the sites.

They can try to make cool colors to make the site look good, but it is still cookie cutter sprawl!

Would you rather all the people in Choctaw commute 20-30 miles to get their groceries?

Would you rather all the people in Choctaw commute 20-30 miles to get their groceries?

That has nothing to do with the layout of the development. Honestly by that logic, you would want something that is able to be walked to so you don't even have to get in a vehicle at all, but alas, I'm sure this development will not be friendly to pedestrians.

You guys and your pissing and moaning about urban sprawl. :rolleyes:

What does it say about a community to build a new City Hall and a Walmart in conjunction?

What does it say about a community to build a new City Hall and a Walmart in conjunction?

New submission ideas for peopleofwalmart.com (http://www.peopleofwalmart.com)?

WOW! This project is HORRIBLE! The suburbs continue to have no character and push the use of the automobile with parking as the most important aspects of the sites.

They can try to make cool colors to make the site look good, but it is still cookie cutter sprawl!

this is a great project and a huge win for choctaw ..

Yeah i don't know why all you people are complaining. If you've every actually VISITED where this is at....you're no where near ANYTHING. It's a good 15 minute drive to get into actual MWC for shopping. Why would you say people should have to go there? When you build in Choctaw, you create a pull from the entire area....Nicoma Park, Harrah, Jones, Luther, etc. Granted, there aren't a lot of folks out there, but it also saves half the drive time for a trip to something like WalMart if they build in Choctaw.

I don't really understand the problem here. It's really comparable to building something in Peidmont. They're connected by a "highway" that still has a 50mph limit so don't call it an interstate. And there is currently very little commercial shopping there, but with a population that continues to grow. So should Choctaw just say, "no please don't build here because we want to drive in for everything"? That's just stupid. Not to mention the fact that Choctaw is and never has been part of any light rail plan because of its lack of population. And given that it's more rural than urban, how exactlly do you expect someone to get around without a car?

I'm with Boulder, it's a great win for Choctaw. It's not some massive huge thing, but it's SOMETHING, which is a major difference for them. If you don't believe it, take 23rd some time out to Choctaw....take a gander at their plethora of shopping options and get back to me.

I live in this area and im kinda bitter sweet about it all. Yeah its closer, yeah its more convienent, it will be good for tax dollars for the city BUT.....

I think most people who live in this area moved here to get away from the city and didnt want to move to one of the other suburbs moore, norman, edmond, yukon that ALL feel like your still living in the city. I've always thought why have a 30 minute plus commute to work to live in the exact type of neighborhood, etc that you would get in the city. I've lived in edmond before and its slightly sad the more and more developed this side of town gets the less rural it feels. I dont need a 7/11 on every corner, i like stop signs instead of lights, and i dont need a strip mall or a walmart every couple of miles. If i want that i could go to any of the other 15 walmart shopping districts in the city.

People like convenience and it will drive up house and property values, but sometimes the quality of life or lifestlye you like gets lost in the process.

Which part of this exactly resembles or reminds you of a Town Center? I really can't stand it when developers get away with calling developments something it is not and the media just continues to quote it.

The article should read "Choctaw's Retail Park 'Town Center' Secures Wal-Mart as First Tenant"

Call stuff what they are.

1967

Shouldn't that be "Call stuff what they is" . . . ?
Sorry . . . The Grammer Nazi interferred . . .
The correct speelling is: "Call stuff stuff. Let the other stuff b. 'kay?"
Oops . . . make that "schpealing."

Nothing like keeping a formely rural/suburban community "quaint" and "winsome" like adding an accessory from Arkansas . . .
Especially if it is packaged in a Big Box.

This whole plan is sh!t, i've said it. Between all the Political tripe in the city office, and now the City of Choctaw is trying to catch up with what every other community is doing around it. Can't hate them for wanting better, but don't send in a planner who just doesn't know what they're doing or talking about. Pipe dreams Choctaw, pipe dreams.

Help me understand.

So should the city of Choctaw have turned down a chance at a Wal Mart or some other big box retailer?

I'm not against the idea of Choctaw having a Wal*Mart. What I am against is POOR PLANNING.

It's definitely not the best site plan I've ever seen, but hey...it's at least SOMETHING for them. If I lived in Choctaw, i'd rather have this than nothing.

I'll bet in 2 years they end up with a traffic problem, which they will spend millions to fix, but will actually make traffic worse, and then in 15 years Wal-Mart will move down the street leaving an empty shell that will become an eyesore, and the whole process will repeat. Good luck with that. It seems some people never learn, focusing on short term returns instead of long term costs. They would be better off with nothing.

Anyone else see what is wrong with this sentence from a planning perspective?

Rendering shows Choctaw Town Square, a new development being built on NE 23.

They should have built this along Main St where they have 2 traffic roundabouts and a lot of their customers could walk.

I live in this area and im kinda bitter sweet about it all. Yeah its closer, yeah its more convienent, it will be good for tax dollars for the city BUT.....

I think most people who live in this area moved here to get away from the city and didnt want to move to one of the other suburbs moore, norman, edmond, yukon that ALL feel like your still living in the city. I've always thought why have a 30 minute plus commute to work to live in the exact type of neighborhood, etc that you would get in the city. I've lived in edmond before and its slightly sad the more and more developed this side of town gets the less rural it feels. I dont need a 7/11 on every corner, i like stop signs instead of lights, and i dont need a strip mall or a walmart every couple of miles. If i want that i could go to any of the other 15 walmart shopping districts in the city.

People like convenience and it will drive up house and property values, but sometimes the quality of life or lifestlye you like gets lost in the process.

When traffic gets too bad people will move 10 miles east to avoid the traffic. Then later they will start complaining about being too far away from Walmart. Walmart will then build a store closer and the process will repeat all over again.

Until gas prices makes it too expensive to drive to work anyway.

Until gas prices makes it too expensive to drive to work anyway.

One thing is for sure - more people driving will result in higher gasoline cost. I went back over to Tampa last week to see the old homestead and if you want to see a city decimated by freeway construction, urban sprawl, and unaffordable gas prices go see Tampa. That city is at the epicenter of suburban collapse. They can't afford to maintain any of it. Thank goodness we moved away from there when we did.

Traffic? I don't think people in Choctaw have any concept of traffic. You put a stoplight at the entrance to that place and you won't have to worry about crossing 23rd...and 23rd traffic will stop for all of a whole minute.

Sorry if this sounds crappy, but there's more traffic on Air Depot in MWC as you try to cross the same number of lanes from Sonic or something than 23rd has on it. And 29th has twice that for a much larger shopping area. So if traffic is your only complaint about this project, i think you have far too much free time. Things are relative.....

Traffic? I don't think people in Choctaw have any concept of traffic. You put a stoplight at the entrance to that place and you won't have to worry about crossing 23rd...and 23rd traffic will stop for all of a whole minute.

Sorry if this sounds crappy, but there's more traffic on Air Depot in MWC as you try to cross the same number of lanes from Sonic or something than 23rd has on it. And 29th has twice that for a much larger shopping area. So if traffic is your only complaint about this project, i think you have far too much free time. Things are relative.....

A thousand mile journey starts with a single step.

And so what's that supposed to mean? Because there will be traffic (ie meaning people shopping here at <shock> a retail site), we should not do it? I'm just not seeing where the actual basis on the arguement is. No matter where you add reatil, it causes increase in traffic in that area. It doesn't matter what or where it is. That's sort of the point of any retail establishment...get people to come shop at your store.

And if we're talking walkability, then forget it in regards to Choctaw. We should no more discuss walkability than we would for say Purcell. Actually I think Purcell has more retail options. The city of Choctaw only has 11K residents, and they are very spread out over a mostly rural layout. Let's not try to apply an urban label to a most decidedly NOT urban town.

Choctaw is the perfect place to start walkability discussions. Clearly they are already thinking along those lines because they already put in two roundabouts and have a decent foundation started along Main St. Then they screwed that up and approved this project. I'm not saying, don't build the project, I am saying move it 3,500 feet east.

Choctaw is the perfect place to start walkability discussions. Clearly they are already thinking along those lines because they already put in two roundabouts and have a decent foundation started along Main St. Then they screwed that up and approved this project. I'm not saying, don't build the project, I am saying move it 3,500 feet east.

choctaw is rural america .. this project is a huge gain for the city ..

Choctaw is the perfect place to start walkability discussions. Clearly they are already thinking along those lines because they already put in two roundabouts and have a decent foundation started along Main St. Then they screwed that up and approved this project. I'm not saying, don't build the project, I am saying move it 3,500 feet east.

choctaw is rural america .. this project is a huge gain for the city ..

I used to live out around Choctaw and it is rural. This project is a huge gain for the city. They should figure out a way to build it on the south side of the railroad track. That's all. The dirt excavated to raise the grade to a proper level for drainage could come from an area designated as a good spot for a proper "decorative lake" adjacent to Highway 62. They could stock the lake with fish. Probably not trout, but some sort of fish. Of course, bike paths and walking trails could be incorporated into the design along with some upscale rural restaurants.

did you just say "upscale rural restaurants"? Examples please.

Arby's would be upscale for Choctaw. ;+) .... Ok, ok... I grew up there. I'm allowed to joke about it.

Examples might be places like Stark's Fine Dining in Pauls Valley, Fireside Dining near Lake Murray, and there is a place down in the Southeast part of the state that the name of slips my mind right now but they have been featured in print and on television.

There is a huge difference between rural and sprawl. Choctaw is becoming rural sprawl (the worst kind of land use). They should try for country urban.

Pwllheli, Wales, UK - popoulation 3,861.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1525000/images/_1527441_pwllheli300.jpg

There is a huge difference between rural and sprawl. Choctaw is becoming rural sprawl (the worst kind of land use). They should try for country urban.

Pwllheli, Wales, UK - popoulation 3,861.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1525000/images/_1527441_pwllheli300.jpg

Which was founded in the 14th century and probably wasn't developed as homesteaded farm country. Maybe this isn't a perfect development but I think it damn good for Choctaw. Better than anything they've had before.

What does the age of a city have to do with good planning? I'm not saying don't build WalMart - I am saying build just a little east of where they selected. Why is that so controversial? Why is there so much opposition to making something better?

I totally agree Brett. And JTF, age has EVERYTHING to do with it. Remember that in the 14th century, cars weren't invented yet. Facepalm. They also didn't have WalMart back then, so the concept of a big-box store and the land it took up, wasn't an issue. That would constitute half the population's footprint in a 14th century town. London had what, 100K people in the 14th century? Not to mention, they build roads like that to prevent invading armies from having a clear, straight path to take over the town. There are only about a million reasons why that logic is flawed.

At the end of the day, this is a private development as well. They build where they get the land for the price they want.

I don't understand why there is so much controversy here either. There should have been MUCH more over Town Center in MWC where they tore out 3/4 mile worth of homes to build it. And here we are complaining about a walmart....in choctaw? In an area void of any real retail? At least this site plan also includes other retail as well. It's not the best siteplan ever, but it's far better than anything you'll find in any other small town in OK.

did you just say "upscale rural restaurants"? Examples please.

Cedarvale Trout Restaurant (and gardens).
The Front Porch
Four Palms Supper Club
Junction House
The Hungry Farmer
The Trough and Bucket
Chair Crushers
Meers Store

Got it @RM

I'm not against Choctaw having this development. You say it's better than nothing, but why start out on the wrong foot with poor planning.

Any chain they can get is good.

well.. put the cart before the horse and see how far he pulls it.

mmonroe - could you maybe list what you consider to be the points of poor planning? I'm not trying to be a terd, but maybe if someone did that, it would help us to guide the discussion to more exact points.

For me, the main problem is the site layout. It makes use of too much "street-like" area and pavement rather than having connected structures. There are a lot of islands and no "continents". Now i can see how some of that would be needed. Pad sites for fast food at the front of the development usually want their own islands of non-connected parking lots. Meaning, Taco Bell doesn't want their parking lot directly connected to Jack-In-The-Box <-just throwing names in there so don't get all excited or whatever. Once you move to the right (if i remember the orientation, east), then it gets sort of stupid to me. The buildings are facing the wrong directions. They're rotated in such a way that they disconnect the user from the lots even.

Now all that being said, i've never seen a siteplan that labeled what they expect/hope the structures to contain. If some of this turns out to be office space rather than retail, then it makes more sense. So before i make any more statements about my opinions here, i'd like to see that. Sometimes an expected masterplan makes a big difference in how the site is used. A mixed-use area would be VERY different from retail only.

Anyone have one of those?

There is a huge difference between rural and sprawl. Choctaw is becoming rural sprawl (the worst kind of land use). They should try for country urban.

Pwllheli, Wales, UK - popoulation 3,861.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1525000/images/_1527441_pwllheli300.jpg

Country urban??? LOL. Get the heck out of here with that nonsense...

I guess you just don't get it. The people that live in choctaw (and places like it) DON'T WANT URBAN. If they wanted urban, they wouldn't live in Choctaw. It's okay for urban to stay in urban areas and the suburbs to look like the suburbs. Why are you so intent on shoving your urban lifestyle on EVERYONE?

Country urban??? LOL. Get the heck out of here with that nonsense...

I guess you just don't get it. The people that live in choctaw (and places like it) DON'T WANT URBAN. If they wanted urban, they wouldn't live in Choctaw. It's okay for urban to stay in urban areas and the suburbs to look like the suburbs. Why are you so intent on shoving your urban lifestyle on EVERYONE?

Kerry's point is not nonsense. Urbanity has nothing to do with the population of a place; it's all about how buildings are oriented, with infrastructure being built on the human scale.

Urban simply means the presence of people versus rural land; people have to get these negative notions of huge places that are dirty out of their minds when they hear the word urban.

From Choctaw itself: this (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Choctaw,+OK&hl=en&ll=35.494412,-97.270954&spn=0.003407,0.01929&sll=33.471898,-112.658376&sspn=0.5258,1.234589&oq=choctaw&t=h&hnear=Choctaw,+Oklahoma&z=16&layer=c&cbll=35.494404,-97.270952&panoid=2bhF9eK2WJPwkWDo-7lqzw&cbp=11,346.14,,0,2.5) is more urban than this (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Choctaw,+OK&hl=en&ll=35.493137,-97.27443&spn=0.003459,0.01929&sll=33.471898,-112.658376&sspn=0.5258,1.234589&oq=choctaw&t=h&hnear=Choctaw,+Oklahoma&layer=c&cbll=35.49313,-97.274438&panoid=cQiRShyRrXrFhEoR6PddBA&cbp=11,16.7,,0,-5.61&z=16) just a few blocks away.

Yes. If you don't want to live in "Urban" don't move to the "City". The City of Choctaw, needs to recognize that it is harder to maintain City level of services when properties are used so poorly. Low-density is just more expensive. Dramatically so.

The founders of Choctaw certainly didn't build it in a rural way.
http://www.okgenweb.org/~okchocta/photos/pence_scans/historical.htm

http://digital.library.okstate.edu/encyclopedia/entries/C/CH048.html


A community emerged on the east eighty acres of his land, a postal designation for Choctaw City was issued in early 1890, and town lots were surveyed and laid out. When he relinquished title in 1892, a village of approximately 112 and a thousand inhabitants of the surrounding township supported twenty businesses.

In 1892 with only 112 residents that had 20 businesses. Today they have over 11,000 people and I'll bet less than 20 businesses. Progress?

Are there any pictures or renderings of what of this shopping complex is going to look like?

http://digital.library.okstate.edu/encyclopedia/entries/C/CH048.html



In 1892 with only 112 residents that had 20 businesses. Today they have over 11,000 people and I'll bet less than 20 businesses. Progress?

or 100's of business .... but that doesn't interest you right ...

... In 1892 with only 112 residents that had 20 businesses. Today they have over 11,000 people and I'll bet less than 20 businesses. Progress?

Where did you get a notion that Choctaw had fewer than 20 functional business operations? More than double that are listed by their C of C, and that's only going into the C's of the alphabetical listings (and only counting the listings with actual Choctaw addresses. See http://www.choctawchamber.com/member-directory.html )

Kevin - go check the addresses of those businesses. You don't have to be in Choctaw to be a member of their CC. Even a Choctaw mailing address doesn't mean you are in the city limits. However, they do have more than 20 so I stand corrected.

Well i think there is something to JTF's statement. Yes, the city, really isn't it technically a village, has little business for it's population size. Like so many things, any major business presense has gone to MWC or Shawnee. Those in Choctaw make their choice of where to go...or even Harrah.

Yes there are plenty small family-owned business in the area and a couple larger comapanies. But we're really still talking about a town that has failed to spur commercial growth given the amount of people that are in the area..not just the town itself. The city/school lines between MWC and Choctaw are so funky. You'll be way out at Anderson and switch between the two cities as you drive. And the school lines are even more crazy. But what those school lines do, is get people INTO the city of Choctaw for dropping off / picking up their kids as well. So why not run by the grocery store on the way home instead of going all the way into MWC and then driving back? The same story can be given for a great number of reatil options...and eateries.

The difficult job for Choctaw is making out of state investors (ie the coporations that own those companies) understand that relationship. They look at the demographics of the city and don't get an accurate picture of what is there...and what POTENTIAL is there for "collecting" people from the surrounding areas that ARE rural in comparison to the rest of the metro.

The founders of Choctaw certainly didn't build it in a rural way.
http://www.okgenweb.org/~okchocta/photos/pence_scans/historical.htm

Thats Choctaw COUNTY totally different from the City of Choctaw

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choctaw_County,_Oklahoma