A committee recently proposed two site plans to the city council (or whatever body). One was to improve and add on to the existing downtown jail facility. The other was to build a totally new facility elsewhere and I guess abandon the jail. They recommended the former.

This would be a pretty serious blow to the west side of downtown. I'm not sure how I feel about it.

http://www.oklahomacounty.org/Documents/OKCOMasterPlanPresentation.pdf

I would like to wish them well with vacating the current jail. Very few people, in my opinion, would support abandoning that building regardless of the quality of jail it is. The first jail was built waaaay back, probably in the 1920's. This existing jail is, what, maybe 20 years old, maybe 25 years old. Fat chance this gets any public support. This is Whetsel's pipe dream. He loves to spend money.

Reading the pdf he attached, the new jail would actually be a money saver in as little as 10 years. However, the initial cost would be more than reutilizing the current one. However, it seems either route is going to be very expensive, because the downtown jail would be going through some massive changes it seems too.

They could always remodel the existing one to a juvenile facility or turn it over to D.O.C for local minimum or medium security facility. As it is many juvenile offenders end up at adolescent mental health facilites just because there are no beds available.

Moving the Jail to a new site makes more sense to me. It also opens up a huge area downtown for growth of something better than a jail. Maybe jumpstart that area into a renovation. It also costs less after 6 years then renovating the old jail. Besides the old jail will probably take 6 years to complete since you cant just build, You have to worry about phasing and of course inmates being near construction. Does anyone know where this Greenfield site is actually located??? Someone mentioned this being Wetzels Pipe dream?? I really wish he would get OKC PD to go to a Metropolitan Police Department like Louiseville or Indianapolis. They are more cost effective to. But it involves change and people fear change. Especially when its better for them in the long run.

Something in the back of my mind says the Greenfield site is in Choctaw.

Is there any chance the current jail could be turned into housing (I mean other than for inmates)? How many apartments could you sqeeze into it?

Is there any chance the current jail could be turned into housing (I mean other than for inmates)? How many apartments could you sqeeze into it?

I would think that you would have a difficult time making that work. I do not think that people would be real excited to try and turn that building into residential, but who knows. May have a bit of a marketing problem.

I would think that you would have a difficult time making that work. I do not think that people would be real excited to try and turn that building into residential, but who knows. May have a bit of a marketing problem.

http://www.salemnews.com/opinion/x1690077090/Our-view-Jail-project-another-positive-sign-for-Salem?keyword=topstory


State Rep. John Keenan said he was more than happy to accept the invitation to speak at last Thursday's groundbreaking for the renovation of the old Salem Jail.

It meant time away from Beacon Hill, and, the Salem lawmaker noted, "There's not a lot of great news coming out of there" these days.
Indeed, despite a struggling economy, stagnant housing market and budget woes that are hitting home at both the state and local level, there are plenty of good things happening in downtown Salem. And the willingness of developers David Goldman and Dennis Kanin to invest their money in a project — gutting the interior of a 196-year-old, granite-block prison to convert it into apartments and a restaurant — which many thought for a long time was simply not feasible, is proof positive of the faith people have in the city and its historic central business district.

Is there any chance the current jail could be turned into housing (I mean other than for inmates)? How many apartments could you sqeeze into it?

Have you ever been inside? Any demo short of TNT would be very difficult.

http://www.corrections.com/articles/21604

It would definitely be an interesting project, but I just do not see it happening. That building is very strange inside and I would think it would be very expensive to remodel. Also, it would be the furthest apartment removed from the downtown area and that may be a problem as well.

I really dislike the idea of taking the jail out of downtown. As things stand, it's closer to the legal community. Moving it would mean a lot more time wasted in cars for public defenders who need to meet with their clients. Also a big reason OCU wanted to move downtown was to be close to the jail where the students involved in the indigent defense program would be close in proximity to the proverbial action. There's also a major security issue. The farther prisoners have to travel to be brought from the jail to the courthouse, the more opportunity there will be for escape.

The only way I'd be 100% on board with Greenfield is if the criminal courts were to move out there as well, leaving the main courthouse for civil matters only. Of course, hiring new judges/staff wouldn't be cheap, but dockets are hopelessly congested in some of the courts.

I am all for keeping the jail downtown. I have only been in the jail one time because a friend of mine was arrested for a DUI and wanted me to bail him out. I let him sit there for 30 days until his hearing where the judge told him to leave the state or go to prison. He left the state that night. That is my only dealing with the Oklahoma County jail.

I am all for keeping the jail downtown. I have only been in the jail one time because a friend of mine was arrested for a DUI and wanted me to bail him out. I let him sit there for 30 days until his hearing where the judge told him to leave the state or go to prison. He left the state that night. That is my only dealing with the Oklahoma County jail.

He was asked to leave the state for a DUI charge? WTF? And you let your "friend" sit there for 30 days?!? There better be more to this story...

A committee recently proposed two site plans to the city council (or whatever body). One was to improve and add on to the existing downtown jail facility. The other was to build a totally new facility elsewhere and I guess abandon the jail. They recommended the former.

This would be a pretty serious blow to the west side of downtown. I'm not sure how I feel about it.

http://www.oklahomacounty.org/Documents/OKCOMasterPlanPresentation.pdf

Huge blow? Really?

Huge blow? Really?

There are a lot of businesses located over there which don't do anything other than serve jail-related needs. Think of all the bail bondsmen in that area moving out. That'd be a lot of empty buildings.

A committee recently proposed two site plans to the city council (or whatever body). One was to improve and add on to the existing downtown jail facility. The other was to build a totally new facility elsewhere and I guess abandon the jail. They recommended the former.

This would be a pretty serious blow to the west side of downtown. I'm not sure how I feel about it.

http://www.oklahomacounty.org/Documents/OKCOMasterPlanPresentation.pdf

They chose the latter, not the former, at least that's how I read the pdf--meaning they chose to move the jail out of downtown.

I'm not worried about bailbondsmen moving to another location, even if it means temporarily empty buildings. I'd rather have better businesses move in there or revitalize the area that's being held back simply because it's associated with crime. I'd be more concerned that OCU abandons their project to bring the law school downtown.

That report says it was presented back in November 2009. Did something recently occur with it (e.g., a vote)?

I guess the concern about the law school is now a moot point, unless they decide to change their minds once the economy recovers.

First we need to get Whetsel out of the county sheriff's office. Then we need to vote out the corrupt bums on the county commission. Then we need to vote down any single penny that they ask for to build a new jail...

I really get annoyed at the county govt. I don't even enjoy finding points of contention with them like I do the city govt, which I actually like those guys a lot. The county has a long history of corruption and incompetence, and I know they would lose any kind of ballot initiative they ask for to build a new jail.

He was asked to leave the state for a DUI charge? WTF? And you let your "friend" sit there for 30 days?!? There better be more to this story...

It is a long story. Needless to say, the Judge saved the State of Oklahoma a lot of money and trouble.

Is there any chance the current jail could be turned into housing (I mean other than for inmates)? How many apartments could you sqeeze into it?

Betts suggested over in another thread maybe turning it into a jail themed hotel (The Slammer" or something like that) I liked the idea.

First we need to get Whetsel out of the county sheriff's office. Then we need to vote out the corrupt bums on the county commission. Then we need to vote down any single penny that they ask for to build a new jail...

I really get annoyed at the county govt. I don't even enjoy finding points of contention with them like I do the city govt, which I actually like those guys a lot. The county has a long history of corruption and incompetence, and I know they would lose any kind of ballot initiative they ask for to build a new jail.

I agree but if the tax vote fails, then the Feds will come in, take over the Jail, force the improvements to be made and property taxes would automatically increase to cover the bill. No vote or say in the matter at all. Definitely one of those damned if we do...damned if we don't situations.

I haven't read the link in the thread yet but are they still planning on removing 500 beds to keep costs of the new jail under control? One of the main sticking points with the Feds is overcrowding and I don't see how removing 500 beds (and spending 100s of millions in the process) solves the underlying problem.

The plan under the former Chief of Police of Choctaw turned county sheriff suggests the best location for a new jail is near Choctaw?
Awww, that's nice.

First we need to get Whetsel out of the county sheriff's office. Then we need to vote out the corrupt bums on the county commission. Then we need to vote down any single penny that they ask for to build a new jail...

I really get annoyed at the county govt. I don't even enjoy finding points of contention with them like I do the city govt, which I actually like those guys a lot. The county has a long history of corruption and incompetence, and I know they would lose any kind of ballot initiative they ask for to build a new jail.

You are exactly right, and while we are at voting people out, why stop with the county people. We also need to vote out many of our city council, state senators as well as state representatives. There is corruption at every level of govt., some are better at covering their tracks than others.

I agree but if the tax vote fails, then the Feds will come in, take over the Jail, force the improvements to be made and property taxes would automatically increase to cover the bill. No vote or say in the matter at all. Definitely one of those damned if we do...damned if we don't situations.

I haven't read the link in the thread yet but are they still planning on removing 500 beds to keep costs of the new jail under control? One of the main sticking points with the Feds is overcrowding and I don't see how removing 500 beds (and spending 100s of millions in the process) solves the underlying problem.


Where do you get the information that the jail could be taken over by the Feds? Exactly, how does this occur? How do taxes get "automatically increased"?

He may be referring to the fact that the Jail has been surveyed and found to be insuffucient in terms of rooms, beds, design, and a whole bunch of other crud. Jails must meet a minimum requirement of some sort I would guess, like they should, or the government will step in. Someone could step in and put that in more appropriate terms.

I support them moving from Downtown. I don't like the idea of having maximum security inmates a couple of blocks from housing, entertainment districts, and etc. Not only that, but when I drive down there and I see all the potential that little nook of Police Central has, I just can't help but know that these police businesses aren't what's best for that area. However, I don't want instant gradification. I would like to see the area change gradually over a few years to keep business occupancy up and healthy. Whether we like it or not, the police do keep the buildings maintained and alive.

You are exactly right, and while we are at voting people out, why stop with the county people. We also need to vote out many of our city council, state senators as well as state representatives. There is corruption at every level of govt., some are better at covering their tracks than others.

No one else is as bad as Sheriff Whetsel..

Where do you get the information that the jail could be taken over by the Feds? Exactly, how does this occur? How do taxes get "automatically increased"?

Well he's referring to the fact that the feds have threatened to come in and take possession of the jail if we fail to meet the DOJ requirements. I'm extremely anti-jail and I'm not disputing this fact. However, I would welcome the feds to take ownership of our jail. That would be the best thing that could ever happen to the Oklahoma County government.

I do not care that OK County is feeling insulted and underappreciated by this, I don't even want the county govt to exist anymore. If they wanted to keep possession of the damn jail, they shouldn't have built it like it is now, they should have maintained it, and they should have been better stewards of the bookoos of cold hard money that we're pumping through their corrupt little scheme.

"Officials prefer sales tax to federal takeover:"

http://kosu.org/2009/12/officials-prefer-sales-tax-to-fed-takeover-for-jail/

"Officials prefer sales tax to federal takeover:"

http://kosu.org/2009/12/officials-prefer-sales-tax-to-fed-takeover-for-jail/

BREAKING NEWS: County officials favor the county getting more money so that the jail can stay under their jurisdiction.

I support them moving from Downtown. I don't like the idea of having maximum security inmates a couple of blocks from housing, entertainment districts, and etc. Not only that, but when I drive down there and I see all the potential that little nook of Police Central has, I just can't help but know that these police businesses aren't what's best for that area. However, I don't want instant gradification. I would like to see the area change gradually over a few years to keep business occupancy up and healthy. Whether we like it or not, the police do keep the buildings maintained and alive.

Granted there might be more productive uses for that area when considering the overall development of downtown but I see no problem with it being near the areas you mention. I've never seen anything indicating issues such as jail escapes, etc. There was a similar discussion in the Norman thread about the new Cleveland County Jail which is being built in an industrial area of north Norman and people were worried about the effects on that area. Jails are a necessity, like it or not. When I lived in Mustang, I was one block from the police station and city jail and always felt safer by being that close.

The kosu page has two December 09 articles about the jail. Each mentioned a desire to see an election in May.
Don't know if someone read tea leaves, took a straw poll or three, or just thought better of it, but yeah, did not happen.

We have the same issue up here in Tulsa with the David L. Moss center in the northwestern corner of downtown Tulsa. It is in a dead-zone, and is a hinderance to growth in the Brady district (unless you consider bail bondsmen great development). You aren't going to find too many people interested in purchasing a loft or eating fine dining directly next to a criminal-justice facility, regardless of the unlikeliness of an escape or how nice the exterior looks.

On the other hand, I understand the cost savings of having the facility near the court house for transport of criminals.

I like having the jail close. I can't tell you how many times I have been in court and they forgot to bring over a prisoner (not in OKC but I can't imagine that it would be that different). Usually, we would just wait because it wouldn't take that long to round them up. If they move the jail away, a lot of hearings would have to be rescheduled and that is a hardship on people taking off work for a hearing. They can do video arraignments for some things but not all. If they have to reschedule, some folks are going to sit in jail a lot longer than they might otherwise if there is an administrative mix up on bringing them to court.

First we need to get Whetsel out of the county sheriff's office. Then we need to vote out the corrupt bums on the county commission. Then we need to vote down any single penny that they ask for to build a new jail...

I really get annoyed at the county govt. I don't even enjoy finding points of contention with them like I do the city govt, which I actually like those guys a lot. The county has a long history of corruption and incompetence, and I know they would lose any kind of ballot initiative they ask for to build a new jail.


I agree but if the tax vote fails, then the Feds will come in, take over the Jail, force the improvements to be made and property taxes would automatically increase to cover the bill. No vote or say in the matter at all. Definitely one of those damned if we do...damned if we don't situations.

I haven't read the link in the thread yet but are they still planning on removing 500 beds to keep costs of the new jail under control? One of the main sticking points with the Feds is overcrowding and I don't see how removing 500 beds (and spending 100s of millions in the process) solves the underlying problem.


Where do you get the information that the jail could be taken over by the Feds? Exactly, how does this occur? How do taxes get "automatically increased"?


He may be referring to the fact that the Jail has been surveyed and found to be insuffucient in terms of rooms, beds, design, and a whole bunch of other crud. Jails must meet a minimum requirement of some sort I would guess, like they should, or the government will step in. Someone could step in and put that in more appropriate terms.

I support them moving from Downtown. I don't like the idea of having maximum security inmates a couple of blocks from housing, entertainment districts, and etc. Not only that, but when I drive down there and I see all the potential that little nook of Police Central has, I just can't help but know that these police businesses aren't what's best for that area. However, I don't want instant gradification. I would like to see the area change gradually over a few years to keep business occupancy up and healthy. Whether we like it or not, the police do keep the buildings maintained and alive.

Exactly. This issue is old news and has been up for discussion for at least the last 2 years. It has already been deemed that if we don't act by "x date" then the feds step in, approve it at our expense and we pay for it without a vote of the people. Why are we still debating this it's not up for discussion in reality. It's as simple as do we want to propose our own ideas and approve them or wait for the feds to do what they want.

Spartan, I don't think it's as elementary as you think things are, I believe the feds step out and hand it back over to the county after it gets built. I could be wrong though.

The area isn't that bad really. I lived in Sycamore for several years (less than a block away from the jail). Aside from someone stealing my crappy old bike, we had zero troubles. I don't have a problem walking in the area as I do from time to time. The sorts of folks who occupy that jail stay inside and do not tarry long after their release.

I like having the jail close. I can't tell you how many times I have been in court and they forgot to bring over a prisoner (not in OKC but I can't imagine that it would be that different). Usually, we would just wait because it wouldn't take that long to round them up. If they move the jail away, a lot of hearings would have to be rescheduled and that is a hardship on people taking off work for a hearing. They can do video arraignments for some things but not all. If they have to reschedule, some folks are going to sit in jail a lot longer than they might otherwise if there is an administrative mix up on bringing them to court.

I foresee a significant expansion of appearance via video linkup in the years ahead. Not saying it's a great development, but as jails become more crowded, relocated further away from judge central, and govts. reduce security bodies to offset hikes in salary, insurance, etc. ... yeah, it'll come.

I foresee a significant expansion of appearance via video linkup in the years ahead. Not saying it's a great development, but as jails become more crowded, relocated further away from judge central, and govts. reduce security bodies to offset hikes in salary, insurance, etc. ... yeah, it'll come.

I wouldn't mind it in an abuse case where a child has to testify but I suspect they would bring over the accused for one of those, even if it was a civil hearing. I hate to think they'd bring a scared child in to testify only to have the hearing continued over a glitch. I've seen that happen a few times to the point where I would check to make sure the clerk knew to notify the jail but it was a fine line to not cross since I didn't represent the accused and didn't want to step on the toes of his/her attorney. And even notifying the clerk was often not a guarantee. On the other hand, if the court had to deal with the hassle of bringing over someone from a distant jail, they might be hyper vigilent to make sure the jail got the word since they wouldn't have the back up plan to just go get them and delay things a few minutes.

These are the questions that the County needs to answer before the ask for $400 mil.

1. How did a jail built in the 90s suddenly become obsolete so soon?
2. Do you think the lawsuit from the state for not releasing certain prisoners could be a "cause" of overcrowding?
3. If we refuse to merge the city and county, why not consider just merging the detention facilities? OCPD is getting a renovation as we speak.
4. How is the County going to make sure that this jail is built right, and that we aren't in the same situation later?
5. How do you justify spending $400 mil on a new jail when Tulsa County built theirs for less than $100 mil a few years ago?
6. Can someone explain why in addition to this project, there are at least 11 other prisons under construction right? We've never seen anything NEAR this before. Why the SUDDEN huge boom in prison construction?
7. And of course, why do you guys suck so bad?

I don't know the answers, but I have a question to add to 6, I think. Why is Norman building 500 new beds because 75 is too few? It's not like we are getting rid of the 75, we are adding a bunch more. A giant bunch more. Why?

I don't want to sound any alarms or sound like some conspiracy theorist, because really I'm just biased and hate spending our limited funds on throwaway propositions like our bloated prison system, which to me resembles a giant black hole that we keep shoveling tax money into at an insane rate.

Someone needs to look into this huge spike in new prisons construction. Excellent question, why does Norman need 500 rooms when 75 is too little? Why does OKC need a $430 million jail when Tulsa County's was less than $100 million 4-5 years ago? Why are there so many jails u/c right now, esp when so many appear to be way bigger than they need be?

Like I said, don't just vote NO, but vote HELL NO.

Where do you get the information that the jail could be taken over by the Feds? Exactly, how does this occur? How do taxes get "automatically increased"?

It occurs when the DOJ goes to federal court and asks a judge for an injunction, appointment of a receiver (sometimes a multiple member control board), and eventually an order forcing the local government to take action to fix the underlying problems. There would likely be an agreed settlement (usually known as a consent order) and that settlement would be entered as a judgement.
When a government entity (in the case, the county) has a judgement against it, the judgement is assessed out as a property tax. There is no vote of the people required as there would be in a bond issue.

Someone needs to look into this huge spike in new prisons construction. Excellent question, why does Norman need 500 rooms when 75 is too little? Why does OKC need a $430 million jail when Tulsa County's was less than $100 million 4-5 years ago? Why are there so many jails u/c right now, esp when so many appear to be way bigger than they need be?

Like I said, don't just vote NO, but vote HELL NO.

I'm not sure about all of your questions but as for Norman, that isn't just a Norman jail. It's a Cleveland County Jail and Cleveland county has been the fastest growing county in Oklahoma for years. I'm sure the jail is larger than is needed now but what will happen in ten years if they only built what was needed now? Would they have to go back and enlarge the new jail with a much higher building cost? I think they are wise in planning for the future. Other jails such as Canadian County are very overcrowded and having excess space would allow them to take overflow prisoners from other places at least temporarily.

I'm not sure about all of your questions but as for Norman, that isn't just a Norman jail. It's a Cleveland County Jail and Cleveland county has been the fastest growing county in Oklahoma for years. I'm sure the jail is larger than is needed now but what will happen in ten years if they only built what was needed now? Would they have to go back and enlarge the new jail with a much higher building cost? I think they are wise in planning for the future. Other jails such as Canadian County are very overcrowded and having excess space would allow them to take overflow prisoners from other places at least temporarily.

Going from 75 to 500 is 625% growth. Last time I checked Cleveland County's growth rates are just beneath that. I would know, I live there.

Here's a radical concept...deferred sentences..."legalize it"...drug courts...just don't make me pay for it. It is shocking to me how when times get tough and money is scarce, we all have to cut back..unless you are the U.S. penal system. That would be the appropriate time to double up on funding, even if our law enforcement schemes are stretching our abilities to pay for it. And causing us to have to cut more important things, plain and simple.

There are a LOT of needs in Cleveland County. The only place with worse roads than downtown OKC is probably anywhere in Cleveland County that was country ten years ago, built up suburbia today. Try Indian Hill Rd, NW 36th, Bryant, Sunnylane...and other crumbling so-called roads. Typical things that go with population growth as evidenced in Cleveland County..needs for new roads, schools, new water, power, other utilities, new parks..new prisons don't typically go into that.

Going from 75 to 500 is 625% growth. Last time I checked Cleveland County's growth rates are just beneath that. I would know, I live there.

Spartan, I'm well aware of Cleveland County's growth rates and you don't have to explain anything to me about Cleveland County or Norman. I was born there and grew up there. I still believe it is an excellent move in planning for the future and will save money in the long run.

That would explain building a prison with 150 beds...MAYBE 200 if we're really in the mood to SPEND some bank.

I hate to sound like a stereotypical ignoramus, but why can't we just have a prison like the one in Les Miserables and just throw crooks in there, and then throw away the key? That would be a lot cheaper. I also like that prison in Peru that Joran Van Der Sloot is ending up in. That would be an Oklahoma County Jail we could all be proud of...with some very "spartan" conditions.

That would explain building a prison with 150 beds...MAYBE 200 if we're really in the mood to SPEND some bank.

I hate to sound like a stereotypical ignoramus, but why can't we just have a prison like the one in Les Miserables and just throw crooks in there, and then throw away the key? That would be a lot cheaper. I also like that prison in Peru that Joran Van Der Sloot is ending up in. That would be an Oklahoma County Jail we could all be proud of...with some very "spartan" conditions.

It could be because that would be illegal. Some day it might be possible that someone that you are related to or really care about might be incarcerated. That can tend to change your viewpoint. You want them to at least be treated humanely. Many prisoners deserve everything they get and more but some are really nice people who get caught up in things that they never intended.

And that's why I've also been arguing for drug courts, deferred sentences, decriminalizing certain things, more focus on rehabilitation and less on incarceration, and other things to keep people out of jail. Putting someone in jail, although I've never known any personally that ended up there, I would imagine is the absolute worst thing you can do to someone's future. And the most expensive way you can deal with them, as well. It's a lose-lose proposition, period.

So which are we going to have? The "spartan" conditions, or more humane treatment?

And that's why I've also been arguing for drug courts, deferred sentences, decriminalizing certain things, more focus on rehabilitation and less on incarceration, and other things to keep people out of jail. Putting someone in jail, although I've never known any personally that ended up there, I would imagine is the absolute worst thing you can do to someone's future. And the most expensive way you can deal with them, as well. It's a lose-lose proposition, period.

So which are we going to have? The "spartan" conditions, or more humane treatment?

We'll have to change Oklahoma's "lock them up and throw away the key" mentality first. I believe I just saw that in a previous post by you. LOL Just watch some of the current political ads on television for good examples.

I don't recall offhand when the existing CCDC went into place off the corner of the courthouse, but it was in place in the midish 80's or earlier.
Presently, some folks who are supposed to be held in the CCDC are kept elsewhere, due to the lack of space. For that reason, 75 beds isn't a
proper baseline from which to judge the planned bed increase.

As to 500 beds, some possible explanations, in addition to planned growth, may include:
(a) space to house juveniles in the region. Seems there is often a shortage of available juvenile beds in our corner of the prairie.
(b) space to end the practice of housing county inmates elsewhere. Funds currently paid for such housing could toward the new facility.
(c) space to house county, or state, or fed, inmates for others. Fees paid for such housing go to the facility.
(If this part of the plan, I hope it works out better for Cleveland County than it did for Grady County several years back.)
However, I've not looked at the new jail plans and don't know which, if any, of these possibilities may be real.

As to the alternative sentencing suggestion, this already exists, and has for some time. In appropriate cases (some would argue in too many cases, appropriate or otherwise) the Cleveland County district court judges, just like many other judges across our state, do make use of granting deferred sentences, suspended sentencing, drug courts, community sentencing programs, as well as pre-trial processes like granting own recognizance bonds and even reductions to bail amounts.

They don't do OR bonds near enough. The bail bondsmen have a lot of influence over that as these bonds are their bread and butter. They're a big part of the problem.

I don't do much criminal law--just what comes in the door and that ain't much. Anecdotally though, I had a mover steal my checkbook last year and write about three $200 checks on my account. He signed his own name to the checks, legibly, and wrote them places he'd be recognized. Now, the guy is stupid, don't get me wrong, but a menace to society? Hardly. He's been charged with three counts of forgery in the second degree (all felonies) and has been parked at the county jail since around April. He's not a menace to society though, never been convicted of anything violent. He should be out working to pay my bank back--and Midfirst is a terrific bank, they took care of all the bad checks (as they are required to) and were just terrific the whole way through.

These are the questions that the County needs to answer before the ask for $400 mil.

1. How did a jail built in the 90s suddenly become obsolete so soon?
Because it was designed by some members of the old Oklahoma City/County good 'ol boys network who always got the contracts....most are out of business anymore because of the jail debacle.


3. If we refuse to merge the city and county, why not consider just merging the detention facilities? OCPD is getting a renovation as we speak.
I believe the detention facility is merged, I know we did an assessment of the OKC Jail for renovation adjacent to the police building when the city started to balk at the county jail issues not too long after it was opened and immediately having problems. That proposal was dropped once the city and county came to an agreement.


4. How is the County going to make sure that this jail is built right, and that we aren't in the same situation later?
If they do the same thing as last time, then the same thing will happen. They need to hire competent people and not cronies. A guy whose only experience in concrete is watching his own patio slab being poured should not be a concrete inspector because he is a buddy of a county commissioner.


5. How do you justify spending $400 mil on a new jail when Tulsa County built theirs for less than $100 mil a few years ago?
Whetsel doesn't care about how much he spends. Much of it depends on where it is built, here in Austin they have a processing/holding facility downtown but the main jail is out past the airport. There has been talk of moving much of the court system out of downtown up I-35 into an old Home Depot store.



6. Can someone explain why in addition to this project, there are at least 11 other prisons under construction right? We've never seen anything NEAR this before. Why the SUDDEN huge boom in prison construction?
Because mandatory sentencing guidelines have created a situation of no flexibility when there is a shortage of bed space, and there is very much a shortage of bed space.


It could be because that would be illegal. Some day it might be possible that someone that you are related to or really care about might be incarcerated. That can tend to change your viewpoint. You want them to at least be treated humanely. Many prisoners deserve everything they get and more but some are really nice people who get caught up in things that they never intended.
...and some are just bums who if prison was "harder" may not decide it isn't that bad of a place to live....much like my brother-in-law who keeps going in/out of the Texas system because he fails to complete his probation requirements. He is taken care of in prison which is more than what happens on the outside because the rest of the family is tired of his crap, someone who is almost 50 and has spent the majority of the last 10-15 years in/out of the system.

I do have a cousin who does what he needs to to end up in El Reno every time he gets a release, another got tired of the system, got clean (meth) and has seemed to really turn his life around but he was in/out of the Oklahoma system until HE decided to get clean and work towards getting his life straightened out. People aren't going to "rehabilitate" until they decide to, all the rehab in the world is worthless unless they make the decision themselves and the current prison system seems to be a little too easy for most to decide to make a significant change in their lives and stick with it.

I believe that we should legalize-regulate-tax marijuana, because that equation is bleeding money at both ends and because banning that plant is about as possible as banning sunflowers, but that is a related thread, not this one.

I don't understand why there are so many people in jail/prison here. The USA has a bigger percentage than China but we complain about their human rights. Why are there so many Americans in jail? Why are there so many women in jail in Oklahoma? Do we offer any actual help while they are in jail? Why does drug court cost a fortune? Why does Mississippi have more liberal marijuana laws than Oklahoma?

Are Americans really the worst people in the world? I guess you could even say from the statistics that Oklahoma women are the worst in the world. Does anyone really believe this? Why is some drunk dude peeing in an alley a sex offender? Why is the dollar amount for felony so low? When was that set, 1963?

I really don't like this more and more jails thing. I worry about who will fill these jails. If you build it, it will fill. People will make money.

I don't know. By comparison, MN has the lowest incarceration rates, and I've heard a lot more positive things about their cities their quality of life, and what they're able to do. Apparently not incarcerating everyone in their state enables them to pay for LRT (not streetcar), a "Public Ivy" university, some of the best grade schools in the nation, some of the best roads in the nation, and a more direct correlation, the Twin Cities are generally known to be safer than most cities, including OKC/Tulsa.

I don't know. By comparison, MN has the lowest incarceration rates, and I've heard a lot more positive things about their cities their quality of life, and what they're able to do. Apparently not incarcerating everyone in their state enables them to pay for LRT (not streetcar), a "Public Ivy" university, some of the best grade schools in the nation, some of the best roads in the nation, and a more direct correlation, the Twin Cities are generally known to be safer than most cities, including OKC/Tulsa.

To be fair, during at least 1/4 of the year, it's too damn cold in MN to even go outside, much less plan and commit crime.

I've lived in colder..you get used to it. And that still doesn't explain Fargo....

Have you ever been inside? Any demo short of TNT would be very difficult.

Yeah, that place is like a prison in there...

I've spent a little time in the Middle East and China. We could save a lot of money if we do it like them. Sham courts and instant irreversable justice. That would keep our jail costs down.

Does anyone have renderings of new Oklahoma County Jail Expansion west of downtown? With price tag of $430M, I am anxious to see what it will look like?

Is the limited info due to security reasons?