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zookeeper 08-01-2015, 04:16 PM There are a lot of problems with the way the county courthouse is run. Many of the problems they are talking about fixing have nothing to do with the jail. That's not to say that the jail doesn't need replaced -- it does. But more mental health treatment has nothing to do with that.
Well, according to Sheriff Whetsel, the jail is the most important thing with mental health and substance abuse playing a huge part in the feds imminent takeover of the County Jail - which will be billed back to the county. These things have to be fixed - and soon. This goes back to John Ashcroft and W's DOJ. They've made it clear the extensions and delays are over.
Hollywood 08-01-2015, 04:43 PM From the NewsOK article: "Police officers would have somewhere besides jail to take people in the midst of mental breakdowns..."
Is that seriously what's happening now? Officers, at one time, took emotional breakdowns to the Crisis Center (http://www.okdrs.org/drupal/guide/oklahoma-county-crisis-intervention-center). Does that no longer happen?
If they are seriously taking people who suffer mental breakdowns to jail, that makes as much sense as taking someone with a heart attack to jail. Just because one is the brain and the other the heart - they are both medical issues. Neither deserving of jail.
They aren't, either it's a miscommunication or a blatantly false statement by those on the project. I'd say by and large the biggest issue is people being taken to the Crisis Center, Saints, Integris, when they should be going to county. Not the other way around. The mental health system is a train wreck and many are exploiting it for attention and to avoid incarceration for their criminal activities.
zookeeper 08-01-2015, 04:55 PM They aren't, either it's a miscommunication or a blatantly false statement by those on the project. I'd say by and large the biggest issue is people being taken to the Crisis Center, Saints, Integris, when they should be going to county. Not the other way around. The mental health system is a train wreck and many are exploiting it for attention and to avoid incarceration for their criminal activities.
I don't doubt that is happening. However, that's what happens when we are clueless and have no real expertise with a formal system of intake to sift the crooks from those who are mentally ill. Even Whetsel says they are not prepared for dealing with all that and that's why something must be done.
Spartan 08-02-2015, 03:00 PM OK, so you're in favor of leaving everything exactly as it is then regardless of what the good goals are? I'm not defending Whetsel, but he was not sheriff when this jail was designed and built.
He has been sheriff since the mid-90s and has presided over a period (throughout several major corruption scandals) when county spending shifted overwhelmingly toward public service, which is coincidentally the single largest public service overlap between the county and city. Why?
Here he is again asking for $300 or $400 million and you people are content to fork it over, when the city/county/state refuse to fork over funding for services for people. This is why we can't have nice things. This is costing a ton of money.
How does Tulsa get away with having a $72 million jail facility? How much are we spending on a jail compared to other cities? How much are we spending on mental health, addiction, and homeless services compared to other cities and counties? What are we really doing in the bigger picture?
Just the facts 08-02-2015, 04:06 PM I have been saying for 7 years now that OKC was building one giant unsustainable economic model and warned of the tax liability trap they were setting for themselves.
Urbanized 08-02-2015, 05:00 PM ...Here he is again asking for $300 or $400 million and you people are content to fork it over, when the city/county/state refuse to fork over funding for services for people. This is why we can't have nice things. This is costing a ton of money...
http://i.imgur.com/ELxNgow.jpg
Laramie 08-02-2015, 06:24 PM To the above point, you need to go back and look at the record of the exact same county leadership (Whetsel) that is asking for this new jail. Zero confidence whatsoever in the above nice goals. You don't get to just adopt the loveliest goals you see on HuffPo when you have no track record of anything remotely close.
Do we wait until the Justice Department dictates the next course of action (?):
The Journal Record reported Tuesday that the Justice Department can file suit ordering the county to pay for the improvements within three years. Officials said that would amount to a property tax increase of about $226 on a $100,000 home in the first year alone.
October 2013: Oklahoma County awaits federal response on jail | Oklahoma City - OKC - KOCO.com (http://www.koco.com/news/oklahomanews/okc/oklahoma-county-awaits-federal-response-on-jail/22445076)
http://i.imgur.com/ELxNgow.jpg
Thanks for the laugh!
"Here he is again asking for $300 or $400 million" maybe he needs even newer and fancier vehicles to buy. Then spend a little bit on patching the jail.
kevinpate 08-02-2015, 09:21 PM Maybe they should come talk to the Cleveland County folk. I don't recall the exact numbers but I think TPTB down here managed to come in well under what they thought it might take. Of course, there's the possibility that might muss up some plans.
bombermwc 08-03-2015, 08:41 AM I'm the #1 anti Whetsel voice. I vote for pretty much anyone that's running against him. As said, he's managed to push the county into the largest overlap of force we've ever seen, and it has not only drained resources from unincorporated county land (which is where he SHOULD be) but also caused a highly expensive unsustainable model to be created. He constantly asks to use grants to purchase specialized vehicles but always seems to forget that you have to man, store, and maintain them with normal operating money. Not to mention the fact that HE NEVER USES THE THINGS! Those dang ex-military vehicles he's so happy about were purchased under the claim that they can be used to enter tornado areas to rescue people from debris-ridden areas. That's NEVER happened!!!!! It just sits around like all of the other military surplus and wastes resources. He's a perfect example of the over-militarized police force. His purpose should be to run Unincorporated areas and to manage a jail...that's it.
Maybe we could play a Jimmy Carter on him. We'll approve your jail, but you have to agree to NOT run in the next election...or ever again.
That being said, we don't really have a choice anyway. Either we build a new jail, or the feds are going to start fining us even more than the cost of the jail. I was about to write something about how I didn't think Tulsa and OK counties were a good comparison, but when you look at where the county line is, it's actually a pretty good comparison since the bulk of the Tulsa metro lives more in Tulsa county....in fact OK has more of its population living outside of OK county that Tulsa does in Tulsa county....so it makes even less sense here.
ljbab728 08-04-2015, 11:52 PM Some interesting comments from Meg Salyer and Ed Shadid.
http://www.oklahoman.com/article/5438190&headline=Council%20questions%20jail%20plan
There were some very good ideas coming out of that committee.
On OK County jail: ?We don?t want business as usual? | News OK (http://newsok.com/on-ok-county-jail-we-dont-want-business-as-usual/article/5437587)
One size fits all no longer fits.
If there's a message being sent by a study committee regarding the need for a new Oklahoma County jail, that is it.
•Tossing the mentally ill in jail because there's nowhere else to send them no longer fits.
•Locking low-level offenders up rather than sentencing them to community service no longer fits.
•A drug court that lacks sufficient capacity for treatment and oversight no longer fits.
•Living under the threat of federal intervention to set things straight no longer fits.
"We don't want business as usual," Stacey Trumbo, the county engineer and chairman of a committee that studied jail needs told Oklahoma County commissioners this week
The problem is, most of that has nothing to do with the jail. You could spend a billion dollars on a new jail, or two pennies, and the results will be the same as far most of those goals.
I was a public defender in Oklahoma County for 8 years. I have been over to that jail more times than I can count, and it does need replaced. There's virtually nothing you can salvage from that building -- you can't convert it into anything. It should just be torn down. But a new building won't solve bad management, and it won't fix the problems listed above.
A lot of the arguments that the county is making are disingenuous.
Drug courts, mental health treatment, those are all good things and we should increase the use of diversion programs instead of just locking people up. But those aren't really county jail issues. The county jail is there to hold people who cannot make bail before they go to trial. It is not intended to house prisoners after they have been convicted of crimes, though that does happen sometimes.
Drug courts provide an alternative to prison. They don't decrease the county jail population at all. Every person in drug court is someone who would otherwise be doing time in Lexington, or at Bill Johnson Correctional Center in Alva, or some place like that. It is not a person who would otherwise be sitting in the county jail. In fact, it usually takes months and months to get approval to enter the drug court program, and if the person is unable to post bail, they spend those months waiting in the county jail. Generally they could sign for a deal where they go to prison on their very first court date, or they can wait six months in jail for a chance at drug court.
People are not supposed to be taken to jail when they have a mental breakdown. They are supposed to be taken to the Crisis Center for 72 hour observation. However, if the person has committed any sort of crime, they are often taken to the county jail. A crazy man walking up and down the street who smashes a window or spits on a cop will likely be taken to the jail. That's a problem with the way our police are trained to deal with mental health cases. It's also a problem when the DA's office chooses to prosecute those people. I represented a whole lot of crazies where they were acting nuts, a cop approaches them, they don't obey his orders, and a confrontation ensues. That person ends up going to jail, and if no one bonds them out, they sit there. An attorney will be appointed for their first court date, about a month later. The attorney meets them, says "this guy is crazy, he says his name is Darth Vader", and the attorney will order a competency evaluation. The Department of Mental Health will send a doctor to assess the person, and they will send a report about 60 days or so (if you're lucky). If the doctor determines they are incompetent to stand trial, then the court will order them to be transported to the state mental hospital in Vinita. The hospital, however, has no beds available, so the crazy person may have to wait in the county jail for another six months or so before they get transported. Sometimes the person waiting to be taken to Vinita is a crazy guy who murdered his family. Sometimes it's a bag lady who was screaming at a streetlamp, and Officer Jackboot came along and didn't think she was respecting him, so he wrestles her to the ground, and files 'assaulting a police officer' charges against her when he gets a little bitty scratch.
None of that is going to be fixed with a new jail building.
zookeeper 08-05-2015, 02:37 PM Very good points, Hoya. I have a better idea where you are coming from. Thanks for taking the time to write this, and yes, it does make one wonder.
DoctorTaco 08-05-2015, 02:54 PM I am at a loss as to why they think passing a sales tax is a better idea than a property tax. Isn't a sales tax less progressive overall? As Shadid implies, wouldn't a sales tax increase for the jail jeopardize both MAPS4 and a hypothetical future multi-municipality transit initiative? Why is a sales tax somehow "easier to swallow" than the property levee?
Maybe someone can give me some context here.
Spartan 08-05-2015, 03:20 PM Do we wait until the Justice Department dictates the next course of action (?):
October 2013: Oklahoma County awaits federal response on jail | Oklahoma City - OKC - KOCO.com (http://www.koco.com/news/oklahomanews/okc/oklahoma-county-awaits-federal-response-on-jail/22445076)
Absolutely hell yes, because even if we are going to be spending this kind of money on this kind of facility, somebody will need to provide competent project management.
I'm the #1 anti Whetsel voice. I vote for pretty much anyone that's running against him. As said, he's managed to push the county into the largest overlap of force we've ever seen, and it has not only drained resources from unincorporated county land (which is where he SHOULD be) but also caused a highly expensive unsustainable model to be created. He constantly asks to use grants to purchase specialized vehicles but always seems to forget that you have to man, store, and maintain them with normal operating money. Not to mention the fact that HE NEVER USES THE THINGS! Those dang ex-military vehicles he's so happy about were purchased under the claim that they can be used to enter tornado areas to rescue people from debris-ridden areas. That's NEVER happened!!!!! It just sits around like all of the other military surplus and wastes resources. He's a perfect example of the over-militarized police force. His purpose should be to run Unincorporated areas and to manage a jail...that's it.
Maybe we could play a Jimmy Carter on him. We'll approve your jail, but you have to agree to NOT run in the next election...or ever again.
That being said, we don't really have a choice anyway. Either we build a new jail, or the feds are going to start fining us even more than the cost of the jail. I was about to write something about how I didn't think Tulsa and OK counties were a good comparison, but when you look at where the county line is, it's actually a pretty good comparison since the bulk of the Tulsa metro lives more in Tulsa county....in fact OK has more of its population living outside of OK county that Tulsa does in Tulsa county....so it makes even less sense here.
I don't understand how he keeps getting elected. I'm trying to not make my objections seem personal, because spending this kind of money on a jail is objectionable enough.
That said, there is a serious trust issue here. It's kind of like MAPS, where a lot of the public has continued to support MAPS even if they don't know what it is really doing, just due to a general feeling of trust in local leadership. The fact that our mayor is so well-liked and MAPS is portrayed as his vision, goes a long ways.
I worry about this election because somehow, inexplicably, he keeps getting elected. My immediate gut is to assume virtually nobody votes in county elections, but I can't imagine city elections are much better (like ~5-10% right?). I think that there is a legitimate chance they get their blank check to rinse and repeat what we already did back in the 90s, and if that happens, not only is that $400 million of our tight resources absolutely wasted, but it also may cost an opportunity for more progressive public safety and penal system reforms that would genuinely enhance quality of life for most Oklahomans.
I know that I for one would feel "safer" in an Oklahoma County that provides a pathway out of poverty for drug and nonviolent offenders, rather than locking them away in a high-rise or sprawling prison compound.
Jersey Boss 08-05-2015, 03:26 PM I am at a loss as to why they think passing a sales tax is a better idea than a property tax. Isn't a sales tax less progressive overall? As Shadid implies, wouldn't a sales tax increase for the jail jeopardize both MAPS4 and a hypothetical future multi-municipality transit initiative? Why is a sales tax somehow "easier to swallow" than the property levee?
Maybe someone can give me some context here.
The movers and shakers, aka TPTB, prefer regressive taxes over progressive taxes.
Buffalo Bill 08-05-2015, 11:57 PM My biggest question is why on earth would the new facilities cost $61M a year more to operate than what they already have? How on earth does that make any sense? Sheriff Whetsell should concentrate more on protecting the 3.5% of Oklahoma County residents that live in unincorporated areas, and less on purchasing new Camaros and running speed traps in OKC.
bombermwc 08-06-2015, 08:19 AM my biggest question is why on earth would the new facilities cost $61m a year more to operate than what they already have? How on earth does that make any sense? Sheriff whetsell should concentrate more on protecting the 3.5% of oklahoma county residents that live in unincorporated areas, and less on purchasing new camaros and running speed traps in okc.
amen
ljbab728 08-26-2015, 12:58 AM Oklahoma County jail vote likely will have to wait | News OK (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-county-jail-vote-likely-will-have-to-wait/article/5442417)
Prospects for a vote this year on building a new Oklahoma County jail all but died Tuesday.
With business leaders favoring a "building last, not first" approach to criminal justice system reforms, it appeared likely the deadline for calling an election would pass without further action.
Laramie 08-26-2015, 08:02 AM A new county jail is a concern which needs to be addressed; sooner we get started the better. If a temporary sales tax is needed, let's do it. We want a safe community, there are dedicated individuals who will continue to protect our community.
Let's support PUBLIC SAFETY (Police & Fire); supply them the environment & equipment they need to give us a better community.
bombermwc 08-26-2015, 08:28 AM I still say have Whetsell offer his resignation as part of the ballot and everyone will vote for it.
Spartan 08-29-2015, 09:18 PM A new county jail is a concern which needs to be addressed; sooner we get started the better. If a temporary sales tax is needed, let's do it. We want a safe community, there are dedicated individuals who will continue to protect our community.
Let's support PUBLIC SAFETY (Police & Fire); supply them the environment & equipment they need to give us a better community.
Yes, let's support public safety. The "building last, not first" solution is actually exactly what we need. The last thing we need is to waste an exorbitant sum on another absurdly expensive facility (in relation to our peer cities) and then avoid making public policy changes that will go much further toward enhancing overall public safety.
We're not avoiding the building, but we also can't avoid the policy. The building has honestly been mostly fixed except for the issues that relate to the glass walls separating the guards and the high-rise nature, which is weird for a jail. This also buys us probably 10 years during which hopefully the county administration can become more efficient and inspire more confidence over time (ie., Whetsel retiring).
The jail in a community being X larger, or X newer, does not make that community Y safer. That's just not how it works.
ljbab728 08-29-2015, 10:46 PM The building has honestly been mostly fixed except for the issues that relate to the glass walls separating the guards and the high-rise nature, which is weird for a jail. This also buys us probably 10 years during which hopefully the county administration can become more efficient and inspire more confidence over time (ie., Whetsel retiring).
Would that fix requirements mandated bY the federal government which would prevent a takeover? That sounds too simplistic to be true.
http://www.oklahoman.com/article/5443357&headline=Timeline%20for%20Oklahoma%20County%20jail
It seems that glass walls are not the only issue.
http://www.oklahoman.com/article/5443353&headline=Oklahoma%20County%20jail%20not%20set%20up %20for%20mental%20health%20patients%2C%20experts%2 0say
Building a larger jail for Oklahoma County at this point is like giving a raging alcoholic a new liver.
kevinpate 08-30-2015, 11:20 AM sad, but truth often is.
Spartan 08-30-2015, 04:43 PM Building a larger jail for Oklahoma County at this point is like giving a raging alcoholic a new liver.
This.
I also wonder how recidivism in Oklahoma County A) compares to state and natl averages (we know Oklahoma is near the top), and B) how it inhibits job creation and economic development, specifically business climate attractiveness.
Newsflash: People in Seattle or Austin don't use less drugs than people in Oklahoma, they just don't have their lives ruined by it. Oklahoma often spits in the wind in terms of being pro-business.
Plutonic Panda 11-17-2015, 05:49 PM Whetsel claims county jail design flawed - The Edmond Sun: News (http://www.edmondsun.com/news/whetsel-claims-county-jail-design-flawed/article_9ff5b0aa-8d7c-11e5-9ffd-cfa85542a4b7.html)
bchris02 11-17-2015, 10:28 PM This is one building in the core that I think should be demolished and redeveloped being that I don't see any way to re-purpose it.
ljbab728 11-17-2015, 11:46 PM Whetsel claims county jail design flawed - The Edmond Sun: News (http://www.edmondsun.com/news/whetsel-claims-county-jail-design-flawed/article_9ff5b0aa-8d7c-11e5-9ffd-cfa85542a4b7.html)
That's not news. It's been considered flawed since it opened.
Plutonic Panda 11-17-2015, 11:50 PM That's not news. It's been considered flawed since it opened.
True but this monstrosity needs all the negative press it can get so we can place our inmates in habitats that are humane and safe for the inmates AND the police officers. The inmates are people as well.
ljbab728 11-17-2015, 11:56 PM True but this monstrosity needs all the negative press it can get so we can place our inmates in habitats that are humane and safe for the inmates AND the police officers. The inmates are people as well.
I'm not sure any jail can be considered safe for inmates or the correctional officers, but I agree that it needs to be replaced. I had an occasion several years ago to go to visit someone who was imprisoned there and I was basically appalled at what I saw.
Plutonic Panda 11-18-2015, 12:00 AM I'm not sure any jail can be considered safe for inmates or the correctional officers, but I agree that it needs to be replaced. I had an occasion several years ago to go to visit someone who was imprisoned there and I was basically appalled at what I saw.
I honestly have not been in inside thankfully, but from what I've heard it's really bad.
Plutonic Panda 11-18-2015, 01:11 PM Oklahoma Jails Are Used For More Than Criminal Punishment - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports | (http://www.news9.com/story/30544338/oklahoma-jails-are-used-for-more-than-criminal-punishment)
Spartan 11-20-2015, 03:19 PM What I see in that article is the need for more mental health facilities, and absolutely nothing pointing to the need for a new jail..
To be honest I don't care that they want to replace one flawed jail with another jail. There's a better use of $400 million.
Plutonic Panda 11-20-2015, 03:22 PM What I see in that article is the need for more mental health facilities, and absolutely nothing pointing to the need for a new jail..
To be honest I don't care that they want to replace one flawed jail with another jail. There's a better use of $400 million.We do need more mental health facilities, but we also have to have a new jail. All of the reports say as much as well. Spend 200-400 million on a new one and get it done and over with.
If our ground water wasn't such a problem I would ay dig down, not build up. really limits access points. Natural tone LED lighting to prevent any problems with lack of sunlight.
kevinpate 11-20-2015, 07:10 PM If our ground water wasn't such a problem I would ay dig down, not build up. really limits access points. Natural tone LED lighting to prevent any problems with lack of sunlight.
Have heard the same sentiment for solving capitol structural issues. Won't ever happen though. The temptation to go really deep and then recover might be more than most could bear.
OKCRT 11-20-2015, 07:20 PM Have heard the same sentiment for solving capitol structural issues. Won't ever happen though. The temptation to go really deep and then recover might be more than most could bear.
I have a great idea... Instead of building another jail why not build a mental/drug facility to help a very large percentage of people that they are locking up for non violent crimes? Wouldn't that be money better spent? Seriously. I wonder if there is a site somewhere that list non violent offenders VS the real criminals that should be in jail?
I bet if they did send drug abusers and mental offenders to a specialized facility they wouldn't need nearly as large of a jail house. It just doesn't make much sense to keep doing things the way they are doing them. There has to be a better way.
Uptowner 11-23-2015, 03:31 AM There was local news, years ago, that homeless men and women would call 911 from the pay phone outside the rescue mission to get arrested and spend a night or two in county in warmth and with some food. Having been to county I can easily say it's no ritz carlton. But the city never ended up prosecuting anyone because it was a waste of money, and they'd only end up back in county.
BBatesokc 11-23-2015, 06:02 AM I have a great idea... Instead of building another jail why not build a mental/drug facility to help a very large percentage of people that they are locking up for non violent crimes? Wouldn't that be money better spent? Seriously. I wonder if there is a site somewhere that list non violent offenders VS the real criminals that should be in jail?
I bet if they did send drug abusers and mental offenders to a specialized facility they wouldn't need nearly as large of a jail house. It just doesn't make much sense to keep doing things the way they are doing them. There has to be a better way.
The biggest issue with that, IMO, is the reality that you can't sentence someone to rehabilitation and have a high probability of success. Unless or until the individual wants help out of their addiction AND is able to proactively assist in their own recovery, then they will continue in their addiction.
Regardless, we do need a new jail. I'm over there on a regular basis meeting with inmates and the conditions are horrendous.
Plutonic Panda 11-24-2015, 11:39 AM Justice institute takes a look at Oklahoma County Jail | The Journal Record (http://journalrecord.com/2015/11/23/justice-institute-takes-a-look-at-oklahoma-county-jail-law/)
Spartan 11-25-2015, 03:50 PM We do need more mental health facilities, but we also have to have a new jail. All of the reports say as much as well. Spend 200-400 million on a new one and get it done and over with.
All of whose reports? I just don't have enough confidence in giving the County that kind of project. This should involve the city, state lawmakers, and the justice dept.
Plutonic Panda 11-25-2015, 03:52 PM All of whose reports? I just don't have enough confidence in giving the County that kind of project. This should involve the city, state lawmakers, and the justice dept.I agree with this.
As far as the reports go, I was talking about the news articles, the DOJ, etc...
kevinpate 11-25-2015, 08:33 PM All of whose reports? I just don't have enough confidence in giving the County that kind of project. This should involve the city, state lawmakers, and the justice dept.
And your confidence increases by blending in city, state, and fed folk with zero skin in the outcome? Not seeing how myself. Too many Babas in the kitchen.
ljbab728 11-25-2015, 10:16 PM And your confidence increases by blending in city, state, and fed folk with zero skin in the outcome? Not seeing how myself. Too many Babas in the kitchen.
I agree. How often does involving our wonderful state legislature improve anything in our state?
Spartan 11-26-2015, 01:15 PM And your confidence increases by blending in city, state, and fed folk with zero skin in the outcome? Not seeing how myself. Too many Babas in the kitchen.
Well state lawmakers (esp the fiscally conservative variety, ie all of them) need to be involved in jail financing to see the real impact of their laws. The city needs to be involved bc this will surely siphon funding sources away from other city initiatives. The DOJ should be involved bc they're really the only stakeholder here that has an issue. This jail needs to comply with their standards, not ours. They're also not saying that it HAS to be a new jail no matter what.
This does not need to involve unilateral action from the County which created the problem to begin with, and continues to waste money on duplication of services.
kevinpate 11-26-2015, 02:04 PM Feds are already involved. Come up with a solution locally, or they will be more involved. They are best left as the wolf at the gate, not let into the dining room voluntarily.
City's only involvement with the county jail should be what they negotiate to pay for space if they use space. Deciding the location, design, who constructs, how it pays, is no more an OKC elected politico issue than it is an Edmond politico, or MWC politico, etc.
As for the state, puh-lease. They can't handle their area of responsibility lately, and if given the chance would simply order that other areas be cut so there would be no need for any new tax. They've done enough damage at the state level in recent years that no county should be inviting them to the table on a local issue like a jail.
If the problem is the county has bad elected folks, well, the voting populace put them there, and for good or bad, have the government they chose.
ljbab728 11-26-2015, 10:32 PM Feds are already involved. Come up with a solution locally, or they will be more involved. They are best left as the wolf at the gate, not let into the dining room voluntarily.
City's only involvement with the county jail should be what they negotiate to pay for space if they use space. Deciding the location, design, who constructs, how it pays, is no more an OKC elected politico issue than it is an Edmond politico, or MWC politico, etc.
As for the state, puh-lease. They can't handle their area of responsibility lately, and if given the chance would simply order that other areas be cut so there would be no need for any new tax. They've done enough damage at the state level in recent years that no county should be inviting them to the table on a local issue like a jail.
If the problem is the county has bad elected folks, well, the voting populace put them there, and for good or bad, have the government they chose.
Great points, Kevin. I agree completely. And getting the state legislature involved so they will "see the impact of their laws" is asking for something they aren't capable of.
Rover 11-27-2015, 09:52 AM Getting the state legislators involved would be interesting. They would just claim if we vote out the commie liberal democrats then all the social problems go away and we won't need a jail. Problem solved without needing to spend any money.
Spartan 11-28-2015, 12:05 AM Your whole post reads sheriff speak, which I'm not sure if that's a joke or not?
Feds are already involved. Come up with a solution locally, or they will be more involved. They are best left as the wolf at the gate, not let into the dining room voluntarily.
City's only involvement with the county jail should be what they negotiate to pay for space if they use space. Deciding the location, design, who constructs, how it pays, is no more an OKC elected politico issue than it is an Edmond politico, or MWC politico, etc.
As for the state, puh-lease. They can't handle their area of responsibility lately, and if given the chance would simply order that other areas be cut so there would be no need for any new tax. They've done enough damage at the state level in recent years that no county should be inviting them to the table on a local issue like a jail.
If the problem is the county has bad elected folks, well, the voting populace put them there, and for good or bad, have the government they chose.
Two things... You asked what "fed folk with no skin in the game" have... I was just responding. Yes, if we fail they will get more involved and send us the bill.
Secondly it should be the turf of all "politico" in those cities that comprise Oklahoma County. They have all tried to get rid of the county before by instating home rule. They all want this control as there is literally no reason for a county govt apparatus here.
The issue also isn't just a jail. It's law enforcement as a whole. You need to think a little bigger and a little more independently as I would hope you're not dumb enough to read county quotes/PR at face value...
ljbab728 11-28-2015, 12:23 AM Your whole post reads sheriff speak, which I'm not sure if that's a joke or not?
Two things... You asked what "fed folk with no skin in the game" have... I was just responding. Yes, if we fail they will get more involved and send us the bill.
Secondly it should be the turf of all "politico" in those cities that comprise Oklahoma County. They have all tried to get rid of the county before by instating home rule. They all want this control as there is literally no reason for a county govt apparatus here.
The issue also isn't just a jail. It's law enforcement as a whole. You need to think a little bigger and a little more independently as I would hope you're not dumb enough to read county quotes/PR at face value...
Spartan, whatever your point is here you're getting a little too personal with Kevin. He is always one of the most reasoned posters here. You seem to be the one who has a very personal issue with our county officials.
kevinpate 11-28-2015, 10:25 AM I have no involvement with the OK CO sheriff beyond an occasional client related conversation with a member of the office. So, no, no sheriff speak here. Your own dislikes may be inferring material not presented. Can't help that, though perhaps you might elect to make more of an effort.
Feds only get involved further if the elected county folks do not act. They could act in a manner to not replace the jail but square peg, round hole enough improvements for the feds to stay away. Not saying that is best. I am saying they are not presently, nor should they be, involved in the decision, unless and until, not before, the local county government fails to deal with its jail issues.
Despite your disdain for county government, it is simply a fact of life. It is not going anywhere. So in the hands of county, love it, hate it, indifferent about it, exists the only card game and the only cards for this hand Jail Hold 'em to be played. if you wanna play skittleball, scuttlecounty or some other game you would prefer to enjoy, that is one that is not being offered on the current menu. No one is closing down the County Commish Cafe anytime soon. So back to reality. It isn't always fun, but at least one doesn't get gored by unicorns or trip over dino eggs.
Again, if the problem is who is sitting as elected decision makers at county, the folks in the county have no one to blame but themselves. they brought them to the dance. So they dance with them. It's definitely possible for county folks, if they use their noggins, to come up with a decent jail. I was pleasantly surprised with how things turned out here in Cleveland County on the jail issue.
And as for the state, irrespective of majority party, one need look no further than the capitol to know legislizards prefer lipstick on a pig approach to either rebuilding of the barn, let alone ever building a proper one.
Spartan 11-29-2015, 05:12 AM I don't aspire for OKC to use its limited noggins to produce a decent jail. I aspire for that capacity to yield a great city, and then anything extra is bonus. If a new jail we dont need is what you're into, you can have that after we get to other priorities.
I know you don't see how. I know you see county govt as a fact of life. The reality is that it isn't and you really need to open your mind. We nearly established county home rule ten years ago but the county commissioners lobby killed it. Consolidated governments exist in Nashville, Miami, Indianapolis, Louisville, Kansas City Kansas, and countless other cities. It is smarter govt and there is no reason we can't be smarter.
kevinpate 11-29-2015, 11:22 AM Yes, they do exist elsewhere. And I'll concede that if things were different, then they wouldn't be the same. And?
The reality is those who are fine with county level government state-wide still are fine with it.
The reality is that those who wish to go a different route may have some desire, but lack the fortitude and financing to bring about their vision for a different form of government, at least anytime soon.
The reality is that jail improvements, or replacement, will happen, via local control or the feds finally saying enough, long before your desired form of government ever gains traction again, let alone actually gets into place ... if it ever does.
What you want, and what is going to happen, simply don't mesh on the same timeline.
We've had a good go at it, but we're not really having the same conversation.
You seem to want a different form of government and then have decisions made as to the county jail issue.
I want the county folks who were elected to make hard decisions to get it resolved before DOJ says enough.
If it is a solid work around rather than a new jail. So be it. Likewise, if it is a new jail, so be it. They need to decide and go forward either way.
HOT ROD 11-30-2015, 03:07 AM could the current jail be re-purposed by the county (or city) into office space when the new building is built? Will the new building be a tower/mid-rise like the current one?
Spartan 11-30-2015, 11:24 AM Yes, they do exist elsewhere. And I'll concede that if things were different, then they wouldn't be the same. And?
The reality is those who are fine with county level government state-wide still are fine with it.
The reality is that those who wish to go a different route may have some desire, but lack the fortitude and financing to bring about their vision for a different form of government, at least anytime soon.
The reality is that jail improvements, or replacement, will happen, via local control or the feds finally saying enough, long before your desired form of government ever gains traction again, let alone actually gets into place ... if it ever does.
What you want, and what is going to happen, simply don't mesh on the same timeline.
We've had a good go at it, but we're not really having the same conversation.
You seem to want a different form of government and then have decisions made as to the county jail issue.
I want the county folks who were elected to make hard decisions to get it resolved before DOJ says enough.
If it is a solid work around rather than a new jail. So be it. Likewise, if it is a new jail, so be it. They need to decide and go forward either way.
I don't get your point on anything.
Why do you really want to spend $400 million on a new jail?
Jersey Boss 11-30-2015, 11:30 AM I don't get your point on anything.
Why do you really want to spend $400 million on a new jail?
There is a difference between "wants" and "needs". This is not a choice between having either a CC or having a detention facility. The detention facility has to comport with constitutional standards of treating citizens who have had their freedoms at least temporarily suspended.
Jersey Boss 11-30-2015, 11:36 AM As far as the relevance of county government it is real and not going anywhere so it must act in a responsible and efficient manner. Wanting home rule and not doing anything till then is a non starter. I do feel however that the boundary lines between cities and counties should be more in line with each other. The idea that parts of OKC are in Cleveland County is cra-cra. I feel that cities or municipalities if you will, should lie completely in one county.
Your whole post reads sheriff speak, which I'm not sure if that's a joke or not?
Two things... You asked what "fed folk with no skin in the game" have... I was just responding. Yes, if we fail they will get more involved and send us the bill.
Secondly it should be the turf of all "politico" in those cities that comprise Oklahoma County. They have all tried to get rid of the county before by instating home rule. They all want this control as there is literally no reason for a county govt apparatus here.
The issue also isn't just a jail. It's law enforcement as a whole. You need to think a little bigger and a little more independently as I would hope you're not dumb enough to read county quotes/PR at face value...
Yes, and in a similar vein, the US could save billions in military spending if we could just get ISIL (et al) to listen to reason.
No one up to now has made any assertion that a philosophical change isn't needed or welcome in re the way we incarcerate our criminals. The fact is, the jail is broken NOW. The pipes are bursting from the walls NOW. The heating/air problems are happening NOW.
What you are proposing is a fundamental philosophy in how/when law enforcement and treatment interact...something that would take several years (at best) before it could be codified and enacted, much less have any effect on the overpopulated OK County jail.
We all get it, you don't want to throw good money after bad. But the fact is, we have an overpopulated hell-hole of a jail that needs an immediate solution. I think it's fair that someone like Kevin can want to immediately fix the most present problem (what to do with the building to house the inmates' immediately), while also recognizing the value in shifting long term to a treatment model.
In the meantime, you would do best to avoid the degrading comments; they make you look ignorant.
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