Remote?

https://i.imgur.com/tQeyMKI.jpeg

If you’ve driven over there, it does feel pretty remote. That residential area feels a lot farther away and much farther removed from grand than it does on the aerial view.

Definitely, I took the drive over there again the day of just to make sure I was correct when thinking how far out it felt.

Once this gets built and all of the dust has settled, I believe this will be forgotten.

One thing people can't forget is how we were promised this facility in the current building, only to find flaws as soon as it opened where people easily escaped. That's a valid concern for those that live near the new site. It's easy for others to say that this won't be the same or it will be more secure. Would you feel the same if it was 1/4 mile from your house? There's an aspect of NIMBY no matter where it goes. I'm just saying that it's very easy for others to dismiss the concerns with statements like "it feels more remote" or "we won't notice it" when it's not near them. There's a lot of bad history here so it really is going to take complete transformational work in order to rebuild that trust.

In other parts of the country, being near to a jail doesn't mean anything, and sometimes means jobs. I would love for us to be able to all feel that way. We just don't have that level of comfort yet with OK County, given the history.

One thing people can't forget is how we were promised this facility in the current building, only to find flaws as soon as it opened where people easily escaped. That's a valid concern for those that live near the new site. It's easy for others to say that this won't be the same or it will be more secure. Would you feel the same if it was 1/4 mile from your house? ...

Don't jail escapees usually try to get as far away from the jail as possible as soon as possible and not stay in the immediate area? :)

Don't jail escapees usually try to get as far away from the jail as possible as soon as possible and not stay in the immediate area? :)

No, see, they're going to do a home invasion immediately next door so that they stand the best chance of being recaptured or killed within hours.

All the more reason to support building one next to your home.

That's a bit extreme folks. Everyone isn't a violent offender either. There are people that commit petty crimes, specifically to get put back in. Lot's of reasons for why people do this, but it's a much more complex issue that is being painted by the comments above.

There are a lot of examples of pregnant women living in poverty, who shoplift to get placed in jail so they can get prenatal care. It's better financially for them to do that for the care, than try to pay for it themselves. What a great societal commentary that is folks. I'm not making this up either. This is information direct from staff at the facility.

So if i lived nearby, i would be concerned about property damage more than anything. When people are released, they just walk out. So if someone doesn't come pick them up, they do walk to their next destination, which for these residents, may be their neighborhood or a nearby commercial establishment.

Surely you realize my comment at least was sarcasm, right?

That's a bit extreme folks. Everyone isn't a violent offender either. There are people that commit petty crimes, specifically to get put back in. Lot's of reasons for why people do this, but it's a much more complex issue that is being painted by the comments above.

There are a lot of examples of pregnant women living in poverty, who shoplift to get placed in jail so they can get prenatal care. It's better financially for them to do that for the care, than try to pay for it themselves. What a great societal commentary that is folks. I'm not making this up either. This is information direct from staff at the facility.

So if i lived nearby, i would be concerned about property damage more than anything. When people are released, they just walk out. So if someone doesn't come pick them up, they do walk to their next destination, which for these residents, may be their neighborhood or a nearby commercial establishment.

Has there ever been a study or reporting done on how much damage, or any kind of personal harm has occurred in the blocks surrounding the current jail (or any other jail, just to get data points) by escapees?

Has there ever been a study or reporting done on how much damage, or any kind of personal harm has occurred in the blocks surrounding the current jail (or any other jail, just to get data points) by escapees?

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5b6de4731aef1de914f43628/t/5cf7bd74342c7a0001525284/1559739765822/NYC+Detention+Facilities+Analysis+%28May+2019%29-Final.pdf

https://www.jstor.org/stable/25067409

https://frw.studenttheses.ub.rug.nl/1116/1/Thesis_-_Jurgen_Jaakke_-_23_ap_1.pdf

https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/impact-correctional-facility-surrounding-community

Has there ever been a study or reporting done on how much damage, or any kind of personal harm has occurred in the blocks surrounding the current jail (or any other jail, just to get data points) by escapees?

I would also like to see the data on inmates who immediately commit crimes 'immediately' after being released. That crime to get them back in could happen anywhere in the city within a few days of release. In terms of property damage, I bet it is slim to none.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5b6de4731aef1de914f43628/t/5cf7bd74342c7a0001525284/1559739765822/NYC+Detention+Facilities+Analysis+%28May+2019%29-Final.pdf

https://www.jstor.org/stable/25067409

https://frw.studenttheses.ub.rug.nl/1116/1/Thesis_-_Jurgen_Jaakke_-_23_ap_1.pdf

https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/impact-correctional-facility-surrounding-community

Thanks for those!

So here's the TL;DR for 3 of them (haven't read/downloaded the jstor one, have to log in to the library to do that, it looks like):

5 detention facilities in NY have not had observable impact on property values or crime rates

Houses within a 300 meter radius of a regular prison had a 3% decrease in property values short-term in The Netherlands

Escapees do not significantly increase the community's crime rate and crimes by visitors were also insignificant, property values may go down short-term, but other factors are more important long-term, prisons do not have a significant economic impact on the communities in which they're sited (7 prisons nationwide studied, I believe), except sometimes possibly helping the economy due to the prison needing workers.

Thanks for those!

So here's the TL;DR for 3 of them (haven't read/downloaded the jstor one, have to log in to the library to do that, it looks like):

5 detention facilities in NY have not had observable impact on property values or crime rates

Houses within a 300 meter radius of a regular prison had a 3% decrease in property values short-term in The Netherlands

Escapees do not significantly increase the community's crime rate and crimes by visitors were also insignificant, property values may go down short-term, but other factors are more important long-term, prisons do not have a significant economic impact on the communities in which they're sited (7 prisons nationwide studied, I believe), except sometimes possibly helping the economy due to the prison needing workers.

The last three are involving prisons and not jails. If what Bomber is stating is happening in large numbers, then I would want there to be some more visibility on the issue so that these people can get the help they need. Another reason to not put the jail in the middle of nowhere.

And that's a very important distinction. A Jail and a Prison are not the same thing. You would need to find studies on jails. Prisons are long term. These folks have already been sentenced and are serving their time. Think of their state as more "stable" in that they know what's going on. The county jail is a transition facility (or that's what it's SUPPOSED to be) while people wait for their court date. That's a MUCH more frequent revolving door.

Looks like the Design Proposal is out
https://www.news9.com/story/65df262e20f746065b5fec44/possible-designs-for-new-oklahoma-county-jail-discussed-on-tuesdayhttps://images.news9.com/kwtv/production/2024/February/28/jail-design.1709123092848.png?w=1050&h=590.617&fit=crop
https://images.news9.com/kwtv/production/2024/February/28/jail-design.1709123103824.png?w=1050&h=590.617&fit=crop

People also serve their sentence in the county jail if it is for less than a year, fwiw.

I guess News9 fired the proof reader in favor of new storm chaser vehicles....


The Citizen's Bond Oversight Committee discussed plans for the new Oklahoma County Detention Center at a meeting on Tuesday.
Documents from the meeting show construction of the jail could begin as soon as June 2025.
The documents say that the behavioral care center will be partially paid for with ARPA funds that are subject to a deadline.
Designers said the goal is to begin building the center by the end of 2024
Committee members approved these initial plans and will send them to county commissioners.
Last week, County Commissioners voted to build the new jail on East Grand Boulevard near Del City.

I'm assuming its this summer, right?

I guess News9 fired the proof reader in favor of new storm chaser vehicles....



I'm assuming its this summer, right?

Seems like they're talking about 2 facilities. The jail, and a behavioral care center.

I lived across the street from the current jail for 5 years. I never had an issue or even heard of someone having an issue. They'll be fine.

Re the zoning, I don't believe a municipality can tell a superior political division, whether it's the state, federal government, or county, what it can build or whether it can build on city land. This will likely be a boon to the area. There will be bail bondsmen and attorneys office wanting to be close by. It's very unfortunate that they're not at least relocating some of the criminal courts to this land. If it was just the in-custody arraignment courts or preliminary hearing judges, they could save a small fortune.

...
Re the zoning, I don't believe a municipality can tell a superior political division, whether it's the state, federal government, or county, what it can build or whether it can build on city land. ...

Dillon's Rule, right?

Seems like they're talking about 2 facilities. The jail, and a behavioral care center.

My bad. Didn't read carefully.

Dillon's Rule, right?

I'm sure I've heard it called that at some point.. but don't recall it, though I did take a course in law school on state and local government.

My bad. Didn't read carefully.

It was poorly written, though.

Its so much more expensive to do these sprawling one level facilities. That's really short sighted of them. The construction expense alone for exterior materials is so much more.

Its so much more expensive to do these sprawling one level facilities. That's really short sighted of them. The construction expense alone for exterior materials is so much more.

I guess it comes down to the elevator cost and the time delays with the elevators? Maybe? I can tell you, no matter what I want to do with clients at the jail, it seems to take eons to bring someone down to the meeting rooms.

That said, it's not going to be better when you have a sprawling campus 20 years from now and have to walk the prisoners 1/4 mile to see their attorney.

I guess it comes down to the elevator cost and the time delays with the elevators? Maybe? I can tell you, no matter what I want to do with clients at the jail, it seems to take eons to bring someone down to the meeting rooms.

That said, it's not going to be better when you have a sprawling campus 20 years from now and have to walk the prisoners 1/4 mile to see their attorney.

The one-story nature of the new facility is completely intentional. Having things on one level makes it easier to have (multiple?) fully-enclosed outdoor spaces. At present the jail allows for no recreation/exercise/fresh air whatsoever which is wildly inhumane.

The one-story nature of the new facility is completely intentional. Having things on one level makes it easier to have (multiple?) fully-enclosed outdoor spaces. At present the jail allows for no recreation/exercise/fresh air whatsoever which is wildly inhumane.

A new jail will not change anything. It will be a new facility that will abused and vandalized by inmates. Routine maintenance will be ignored by the folks in charge. A big city county jail isnÂ’t meant to be a sprawling prison, itÂ’s a jail. Name another county government that gets only 32 years out of a brand new jail. They will continue to have the same understaffing problems until they pay employees accordingly. The same inmates in poor health will be at the new jail. A new problem will arise that some prisons have and that is contraband being dropped from drones or thrown over the fence! Also there will be some escaped attempts since they donÂ’t have to scale down a tower! Good luck, what a wast of public funds!

A new jail will not change anything. It will be a new facility that will abused and vandalized by inmates. Routine maintenance will be ignored by the folks in charge. A big city county jail isnÂ’t meant to be a sprawling prison, itÂ’s a jail. Name another county government that gets only 32 years out of a brand new jail. They will continue to have the same understaffing problems until they pay employees accordingly. The same inmates in poor health will be at the new jail. A new problem will arise that some prisons have and that is contraband being dropped from drones or thrown over the fence! Also there will be some escaped attempts since they donÂ’t have to scale down a tower! Good luck, what a wast of public funds!

Man, so basically no Public funds should be used for anything, given your logic. Why even try.

A new jail will not change anything. It will be a new facility that will abused and vandalized by inmates. Routine maintenance will be ignored by the folks in charge. A big city county jail isnÂ’t meant to be a sprawling prison, itÂ’s a jail. Name another county government that gets only 32 years out of a brand new jail. They will continue to have the same understaffing problems until they pay employees accordingly. The same inmates in poor health will be at the new jail. A new problem will arise that some prisons have and that is contraband being dropped from drones or thrown over the fence! Also there will be some escaped attempts since they donÂ’t have to scale down a tower! Good luck, what a wast of public funds!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

That’s not what I said! Read it!

I said it’s a waste of money, period!

I said it’s a waste of money, period!

There is no choice, it's pretty much build a new jail or have the federal government take it over and do whatever they need to do with it. Not even going to waste my time and address your other arguments because even though you have a couple of relevant points, you don't seem to grasp the whole situation.

The jail was poorly built from day 1. The discussion should be how do they make sure it doesn't happen again.

The jail was poorly built from day 1. The discussion should be how do they make sure it doesn't happen again.

Step 1 - hire an architectural firm that has actually built jails before and do due diligence on all the jails they've built to make sure they're the right firm.
Step 2 - allocate permanent maintenance funds that are enough to cover costs (virtually) forever.
Step 3 - hire enough competent personnel to run it.

Just do the right thing, free of corruption, kickbacks, political favors, etc. and spend enough money to do it all right.

Step 1 - hire an architectural firm that has actually built jails before and do due diligence on all the jails they've built to make sure they're the right firm.
Step 2 - allocate permanent maintenance funds that are enough to cover costs (virtually) forever.
Step 3 - hire enough competent personnel to run it.

Just do the right thing, free of corruption, kickbacks, political favors, etc. and spend enough money to do it all right.

Agreed, just saying a large part of the problem is not related to daily operations.

Agreed, just saying a large part of the problem is not related to daily operations.

There will still be some kind of problems related to daily operations (there always are), but they should be lessened quite a bit if you have a decent facility to operate daily in. :)

There is no choice, it's pretty much build a new jail or have the federal government take it over and do whatever they need to do with it. Not even going to waste my time and address your other arguments because even though you have a couple of relevant points, you don't seem to grasp the whole situation.

Oh I grasp it, believe me!

These are the plans submitted with their rezoning request, which will be heard 4/11.


HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/jail040524a.jpg

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/jail040524b.jpg

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/jail040524c.jpg

Rendering:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/jail042324a.jpg

Rendering:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/jail042324a.jpg

Ah yes, I too believe our prison should look more like a high school.

I was stopping myself from making a 'looks like a high school' joke.

Ah yes, I too believe our prison should look more like a high school.

Far better looking than the abomination downtown.

Only on OKC talk could you find a critique of a perfectly fine looking jail because it looks too much like a high school? Really? Do you want it to look like a medieval dungeon, Alcatraz, The Tower of London? Cooldown and dry the sweat from under your manboobs and take a little perspective on what you are criticizing right now.

Only on OKC talk could you find a critique of a perfectly fine looking jail because it looks too much like a high school? Really? Do you want it to look like a medieval dungeon, Alcatraz, The Tower of London? Cooldown and dry the sweat from under your manboobs and take a little perspective on what you are criticizing right now.

It doesn't come without some mode of insight and experience. Some of our high schools deserve facelifts, but don't get them and they just sit in a school that looks more like a jail than an institution for learning. I can give you one prominent example, a school off of Kelley Ave in the northeast quadrant of the city. I believe the school is currently called Classen SAS (School of Advanced Studies) High School at Northeast, their mascot: The Comets. But before that, it was a school that I spent my freshman and sophomore years in known as Northeast Academy of Health Science and Engineering, their mascot: The Vikings. We would get roasted so bad that they called our school a literal prison, and we couldn't refute that with as many breaker bars and metal screens they placed over the lower floor windows. Then the matter was further exasperated by the fact that the metal screens were black, the windows old, and then they have some screens still on the second floor. May not be the case now, but that look is still evident on such an old building. I'm sure that a redo of the windows would pretty much breathe new life into the complex, not to mention a rebuild of their football stadium that's currently wasting away in the back that could easily be repurposed for track, soccer, etc.

I just think it's funny that some of the schools older than the downtown prison can't get a facelift to dispose of some long-standing stigmas, and a local prison gets so much of a visual upgrade that it looks like a respectable establishment not housing the derelicts of society. Again, it's an opinion of mine, not a full-blown rebuke of what this intends to do. I just wish that some of our older institutions purposed for fostering an environment of adolescent social and educational growth can get this much of a visual overhaul in contrast to the lack thereof, that it would take as much priority.

Only on OKC talk could you find a critique of a perfectly fine looking jail because it looks too much like a high school? Really? Do you want it to look like a medieval dungeon, Alcatraz, The Tower of London? Cooldown and dry the sweat from under your manboobs and take a little perspective on what you are criticizing right now.

The joke is that certain people here used to complain about John Rex saying it looked like a prison.

Rendering:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/jail042324a.jpg

All those Benzez in the parking lot make me wonder if it isn't going to be a Midtown Renaissance development?

Rendering:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/jail042324a.jpg

This rendering would be a lot cooler if they put all those people in orange jumpsuits.

This rendering would be a lot cooler if they put all those people in orange jumpsuits. But then they'd be outside of the prison, negating it's purpose.

All those Benzez in the parking lot make me wonder if it isn't going to be a Midtown Renaissance development?

Didn't realize the staff are getting substantial pay raises. :)

But then they'd be outside of the prison, negating it's purpose.

Yeah I guess that would be more accurate for the current jail.

Maybe the cars belong to the attorneys.

Maybe the cars belong to the attorneys.

Lies. I don't see a single BMW.

The Oklahoman reporting the new jail will cost $610MM, not $260MM like originally stated:

Oklahoma County doesn't have near the money it needs to build a new county jail, according to cost estimates revealed Tuesday.

While elected county commissioners told voters in 2022 a new jail could be built for $260 million, Tuesday's estimates put its cost today at anywhere from $610 million for a jail with 1,800 beds to $677 million for one with 2,248 beds.

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/local/2024/04/24/a-new-oklahoma-county-jail-costs-are-out-of-reach-officials-told-tuesday-in-project-design-review/73429601007/

The Oklahoman reporting the new jail will cost $610MM, not $260MM like originally stated:

Oklahoma County doesn't have near the money it needs to build a new county jail, according to cost estimates revealed Tuesday.

While elected county commissioners told voters in 2022 a new jail could be built for $260 million, Tuesday's estimates put its cost today at anywhere from $610 million for a jail with 1,800 beds to $677 million for one with 2,248 beds.

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/local/2024/04/24/a-new-oklahoma-county-jail-costs-are-out-of-reach-officials-told-tuesday-in-project-design-review/73429601007/

That's almost funny. I can understand a 10 or 20 or 25% bump in overruning estimates, but construction costs have NOT increased by 300%ish.

So this is just a case of someone trying to look like they're doing something and blame someone else for it not going to plan.

That's almost funny. I can understand a 10 or 20 or 25% bump in overruning estimates, but construction costs have NOT increased by 300%ish.

So this is just a case of someone trying to look like they're doing something and blame someone else for it not going to plan.

Is the $260 million for the 1,800 beds? Or a smaller amount? Common sense would indicate a smaller amount of beds, but I am not sure, as I haven't followed in detail.

Is the $260 million for the 1,800 beds? Or a smaller amount? Common sense would indicate a smaller amount of beds, but I am not sure, as I haven't followed in detail.

I believe the original estimate was $260MM for the 1,800 beds. Now that has ballooned to $610MM for the same amount of beds...

In a positive way, it looks more like a suburban office park, than a jail. I'm not disappointed that it doesn't look like a traditional jail.

As for schools, one of the challenges they face that they never used to, was how do you secure the facility from bad actors, without making it feel like a jail? Badge access goes a long way, but ensuring travel is all indoors and doesn't require outside walking, costs money. Do you put fences up and make it feel even more like a jail? Someone has to open and close them too, more expense. A lot of schools are simply going windowless. Can't say i'm a fan of not being able to get sunlight, but it does make the building more secure.

this location rezoning was voted down 7-1 today at council ..

this location rezoning was voted down 7-1 today at council ..

Glad they decided to just throw those federal funds in the trash. Good luck finding any site that isn't in the middle of nowhere that won't opposed. If they ever want to find a location they need to drop the requirement that it be near the courthouse.

Also, I've run on the grand trail that goes by this site a few times and it's basically all industrial around there. I honestly had no clue there would be housing anywhere near it until I looked it up on Google Maps.