I've been to them also - more than once, so I don't know what that proves. All I can say is look at the photo, those building start where the sidewalk ends. On the other side of those buildings the towers are right next to the street. All I am saying is Devon Tower is a great project and that it could have been a little better. I gave it 4 out of 5 stars. By comparison, I give Bass Pro 0 out of 5 stars. If you want to see 5 out of 5 check out NE 2nd. In fact, the just start calling that area NE2, as in , where do you live? Answer, NE2.

I've been to them also - more than once, so I don't know what that proves. All I can say is look at the photo, those building start where the sidewalk ends. On the other side of those buildings the towers are right next to the street. All I am saying is Devon Tower is a great project and that it could have been a little better. I gave it 4 out of 5 stars. By comparison, I give Bass Pro 0 out of 5 stars. If you want to see 5 out of 5 check out NE 2nd. In fact, the just start calling that area NE2, as in , where do you live? Answer, NE2.

In this city, and elsewhere since it has happened, I think developers and architects, if given the proper space, will allow for buildings to be built away from the edge of the street due to domestic or foreign terrorism. That's just my take. I don't know if that's really true, but the safety of employees would be a concern.

http://montgomerycapitalpartners.com/img/properties/embarcadero_centers_1-4,_embarcadero_center_west,_old_federal_reserve.jp g

I have been to and in those buildings. They aren't and have some plaza type areas. No more or less than Devon has.

http://www.cityprofile.com/forum/attachments/california/14584-san-francisco-csfv02p04_08b.1741.jpg

A different perspective showing the open areas around the buildings.

Where is that at?

Where is that at?

San Francisco

Anks. Don't think I noticed it last time in S.F.

In this city, and elsewhere since it has happened, I think developers and architects, if given the proper space, will allow for buildings to be built away from the edge of the street due to domestic or foreign terrorism. That's just my take. I don't know if that's really true, but the safety of employees would be a concern.
It is only a concern for government buildings, I have never had a commercial client address anything about the issue, they almost always want maximum yield from any piece of property. I worked on the new Federal building which was one of the first non-DOD buildings constructed under the Force Protection Guidelines and those have evolved since that building was designed and built.

http://www.cityprofile.com/forum/attachments/california/14584-san-francisco-csfv02p04_08b.1741.jpg

A different perspective showing the open areas around the buildings.

Rover - you are going to lose 9 ways from Sunday on this. That space between the buildings is called the street. Do yourself a favor and go to Google Street view around these buildings. You will find the street, sidewalk, and building - all as close together as they could get it on every side. As for terrorism protection - I don't know how much the lawn in front of Devon Tower would keep a van from crashing into the lobby. However, a one or two story retail plaza would be guaranteed to stop it.

BTW - that last photo is over 20 years old because the Embarcadaro Freeway is still there and it was torn down in 1989.

Anks. Don't think I noticed it last time in S.F.

Here is the web site for it. Lots of shopping and dining.

http://www.embarcaderocenter.com/ec/

Rover - you are going to lose 9 ways from Sunday on this. That space between the buildings is called the street. Do yourself a favor and go to Google Street view around these buildings. You will find the street, sidewalk, and building - all as close together as they could get it on every side. As for terrorism protection - I don't know how much the lawn in front of Devon Tower would keep a van from crashing into the lobby. However, a one or two story retail plaza would be guaranteed to stop it.

BTW - that last photo is over 20 years old because the Embarcadaro Freeway is still there and it was torn down in 1989.

Kerry, I won't lose on that. I have stayed at the Hyatt shown in the pic besides visiting that area numerous times when my brother lived there. Please note the second pic I posted in post number 6834. That is a large plaza area between the Hyatt and the office buildings. The low rise area is mostly shops and restaurants. The Embarcadero is a great urban development but Devon does not suffer in comparison as being not urban enough.

Okay - I think we talked about the Embarcadaro Center long enough. We are just going to have to agree to disagree (unless someone wants to create an Embaracadro thread). I still give Devon 4 out 5 stars because of the large grassy area built across the street from another large grassy area. 4 of 5 on the JTF scale isn't bad.

I know we're supposed to be done with the Embarcadero Center, but looking at google maps, all of these buildings are built up to the sidewalks, with a plaza across the street.

Give it up ZYX2.

BTW - Originally the plaza was across the street but the street was closed when the freeway was taken down. Google Maps still shows the street. I think it is now a firelane and bike path. The plaza at the east end of EC was in the shadows of the old Embarcadaro Freeway off-ramps. EC was completed in 1976 and the freeway was removed in 1989. I'm not even sure if the plaza is part of the EC complex. It might be owned by the City of San Francisco (on edit - I just check the SF property assesor website and the plaza is not part of the EC complex - it is owned by the City of San Fransico and is zoned for public use. So not only was EC pushed to sidewalk, it is pushed to the very edge of a park.

Metro took a pretty cool picture of downtown today so I was looking to see where he took it from. He took it from the building in the picture below. This kind of landuse non-sense has got to stop.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/SA1.jpg

What is this building called?

It's called the Physicians and Surgeons Building.

11 stories, 95,700 square feet.

http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assessor/Searches/sketches/picfile/2711/R045804090001sA.jpg

It's called the Physicians and Surgeons Building.

11 stories, 95,700 square feet.

How many square feet of parking?

Thanks Pete, I couldn't find it on any of the standard lists I knew of to check, I guess it's not tall enough. Convert that surface parking to additional floors however... lol

That building sits on a total of 10 (!) acres.

Hopefully, they will build more offices in the future.

That building sits on a total of 10 (!) acres.

Hopefully, they will build more offices in the future.

LOL - so one acre of parking for every 9,000 sq feet of floor space.

On closer analysis, I thought it was (3) 3.3 acre parcels but it seems to just be one.

Still, lots of room to add buildings and still be able to park.

It's called the Physicians and Surgeons Building.

11 stories, 95,700 square feet.

http://www.oklahomacounty.org/assessor/Searches/sketches/picfile/2711/R045804090001sA.jpg

12 if you found mechanical

On closer analysis, I thought it was (3) 3.3 acre parcels but it seems to just be one.

Still, lots of room to add buildings and still be able to park.

Doubt it will happen, the owners are cheap Russians from Norman, they own several properties around the metro, but I don't see them modernizing their existing property, let alone building new. They are too cheap to put a bike rack out front after lots of hounding about installing one for about $150

Doubt it will happen, the owners are cheap Russians from Norman, they own several properties around the metro, but I don't see them modernizing their existing property, let alone building new. They are too cheap to put a bike rack out front after lots of hounding about installing one for about $150

I don't know about, they spent what appears to be about $35 on landscaping.

I don't know about, they spent what appears to be about $35 on landscaping.

lol

Metro, Would they allow the workers to get together and just buy a bike rack? Or do they not even want one on the property period?

I was in that building earlier this year....with mom....I took her there....with my time and gas.

http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2009/01/civic-center.html

Doug takes care of all the work. Scroll down for the fate of the old courthouse. I actually spent some time yesterday looking at a bunch of old photos trying to orient myself to what direction it faced. All I should have done was re-read Doug's blog... Some day I'll learn.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Montgomery%20Ward/montgomeryward2.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/trains/trains_promisedland_11.jpg
1929

Oh how I weep for the OKC of old...

That's why you have to treat what historical buildings that are left like your 100 year old grandfather. Some consider "historical" only as "historical things happened there". Anything that's in a black and white photo and before my time is considered historical to me. A lot of people probably just don't know where to go to find out about the history of the city. Like me, all it took was seeing images of what used to be here to get me interested. Doug's blog (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/) in particular. I found his blog via OKCTalk by searching for "new skyscrapers okc" and found this forum. RetroMetroOKC (http://www.retrometrookc.org/) is about the only group I know of that has a modern looking website and meets regularly and has a movement going. Imagine if they got one single local ad on television, what that would do. If junk like Fowler Honda and your local family-owned business can get on tv, I don't see why RetroMetro couldn't. There's enough talent at NewOK for Steve to perhaps make that happen in the future some day.

I didn't post the new and old photos I have of the courthouse because I didn't want this to go way off topic. But... you have to picture yourself on this forum as if you're on a brightly lit stage. Everything that's posted here is public and there's an untold amount of unique new visitors and "lurking members" that only view but never post. I was one of those members for a long time myself. It's like when you're on stage you can see a multitude of people out there but you can't make out who they are because of the lights. Most people don't feel like scrolling through pages of text so it doesn't hurt to bring up things or link to websites most regular visitors here all know.

...or I could have looked at this too.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Aerial/SW1940s.jpg

The courthouse was actually replaced by the old Holiday Inn, which is now the character institute place.

Well, kind of. As is shown by the photos that Will posted above, also shown below, the courthouse was located as shown, which is south of where the old Holiday Inn mainly sits, with perhaps a little overlap around the alley.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Montgomery%20Ward/montgomeryward2.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Aerial/SW1940s.jpg

Compare ...

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/civiccenter/courthouseproperty.jpg

This comment goes against the grain of what I usually say, but seeing that photo makes me wonder what was at the Bus Station's location before it was built, and also if there was an uproar about the modern structure being built at the time...
Hey, they tore down the old Waldorf-Astoria to make way for the Empire State Building. Sometimes it's OK to be bummed about losing the old place and still enthusiastic about what replaces it.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l18d3q6wSY1qbwvhpo1_500.jpg

Sometimes it's OK to be bummed about losing the old place and still enthusiastic about what replaces it.

Except in our case where, with all the empty space and surface parking, you could have both the old and new with little attrition.

Completely agree, though in regard to the discussion that comment pertained to, the bus station was built long before OKC's urban renewal period.

I didn't want to post the new photos I found but I guess I will now...it's getting off topic.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Aerial/16250OklahomaCityPoliceDepartmentCollection-Photographs-Box1TOWNS-OKLAHOMACITY-AERIALVIEWS-1940S-OFFICALPOLICEDEPTPHOTO-1940S.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Aerial/21412B54155BarneyHillermanCollection-Photographs-Box12TOWNS-OKLAHOMACITY-AERIALVIEWOFDOWNTOWNVIEWLOOKINGNE.jpg

The courthouse would have fit directly in front of the Holiday Inn and alongside the west side of the parking garage.

Except in our case where, with all the empty space and surface parking, you could have both the old and new with little attrition.

This is why I am not bothered by the canal corner development. Step 1 is getting rid of all the available land. Step 2 will be replacing low density structures with high density developments.

Would anyone even know how to build something like this in today's age?

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Old%20Oklahoma%20County%20Courthouse/2219438991BobDuncanCollection-Photographs-Box1FINISHINGTHEROOFONTHEOKLAHOMACOUNTYCOURTHOUSEO KLAHOMACITYOTPHOTOBYHAYSSTUDIOSHAMROCKTX1908.jpg
Construction

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Old%20Oklahoma%20County%20Courthouse/Old-Oklahoma-County-Courthouse1905.jpg
1905

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Old%20Oklahoma%20County%20Courthouse/2344928VGLofgrenCollection-Photographs-Box1TOWNS-OKLAHOMACITY-IO-FIREMEN-OKLAHOMACOUNTYCOURTHOUSEWMAINSTINLEFTBACKGROUND.jp g

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Old%20Oklahoma%20County%20Courthouse/2112020CharlesTurnerHockerCollection-Photographs-Box1TOWNS-OKLAHOMACITY-BUILDINGS-GOVERNMENTCOUNTYCOURTHOUSE.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Old%20Oklahoma%20County%20Courthouse/18827028AlbertypeCollection-Photographs-Box1TOWNS-OKLAHOMACITY-BUILDINGS-GOVERNMENT-OKLAHOMACOUNTYCOURTHOUSE.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Old%20Oklahoma%20County%20Courthouse/10108NadinePendletonCollection-Photographs-Box1TOWNS-OKLAHOMACITY-BUILDINGS-COUNTY-OKLAHOMACOUNTYCOURTHOUSEBUILT1905-PHOTOPRE1908-HALFTONEPR.jpg
1905

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Old%20Oklahoma%20County%20Courthouse/21412BH6961.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Old%20Oklahoma%20County%20Courthouse/18827044.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Old%20Oklahoma%20County%20Courthouse/217144OklahomaHistoricalSocietyPhotographCollectio n-Photographs-TownsBox6TOWNS-OKLAHOMACITY-PERSONSINFRONTOFTHEOKLAHOMACOUNTYCOURTHOUSE.jpg
North entrance

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/Old%20Oklahoma%20City/Old%20Oklahoma%20County%20Courthouse/10965HaroldandVaskaReddingCollection-Photographs-Box1TOWNS-OKLAHOMACITY-MUSIC-BANDS-AFMBRASSBANDINFRONTOFTHEOKLAHOMACOUNTYCOURTHOUSEC1 918-19.jpg
1918

Would anyone even know how to build something like this in today's age?


Nope. Have you seen the crap they tried to pass off as the new courthouse and police headquarters?

Building it to be fireproof would be a good start:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/civiccenter/oklahoman_11_27_1944_2.jpg

Would anyone even know how to build something like this in today's age?

Walt Disney?

Hey, they tore down the old Waldorf-Astoria to make way for the Empire State Building. Sometimes it's OK to be bummed about losing the old place and still enthusiastic about what replaces it.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l18d3q6wSY1qbwvhpo1_500.jpg

Unfortunately, we don't even have a building like that left to be torn down... going back to Will's point about our emotional attachment to what little we have left of the great, urban city OKC once was. Not to chide you or anything urbanized, I know you care about old buildings as much as all of us..if not more, with your background in AA and BT...

Nope. Have you seen the crap they tried to pass off as the new courthouse and police headquarters?

Well, in fairness to them, it is a municipal court building, and those generally don't end up on the magnificent end of the spectrum.
(of course, most state court bldgs. erected in the past 30 years haven't been much to look at either.)

Step 1 is getting rid of all the available land. Step 2 will be replacing low density structures with high density developments.

I was referring to when we actually tear down structures to build next to empty land, which is where the Preftakes block seems to be heading. The canal corner is simply taking empty space on a prime lot and paving over most of it. That just makes it so that if density happens, it will happen elsewhere, which is a shame, because bricktown is closer to density than most of the city. Bricktown shouldn't have to struggle for density, developers should WANT to add density at this point.

If we are really willing to wait for all the empty space to be paved over before the city even has the potential for density, then we will be waiting for a VERY long time, especially when noone seems interested in developing the empty space we have and instead chooses to tear down buildings next to empty space for developments, or even tear down buildings to create MORE empty space.

I was referring to when we actually tear down structures to build next to empty land, which is where the Preftakes block seems to be heading.

High density growth doesn't occur in a uniform patter though. It radiates from a single point/line and that point/line can be MBG, the canal, Automobile Alley, etc. In the Preftakes case the point of focus is MBG. If he is planning on high density development (one or more high rises) then it would make sense that he would convert a middle density development to superhigh density before he leap frogged to replacing a no-density open space. Only if he was planning to duplicate what is already on his block would it then make sense to develop near by vacant land instead. In other words, the Preftakes block (and other land around MBG - i.e. Stage Center and Cox site) are ready for step 2.

Unfortunately, we don't even have a building like that left to be torn down... going back to Will's point about our emotional attachment to what little we have left of the great, urban city OKC once was. Not to chide you or anything urbanized, I know you care about old buildings as much as all of us..if not more, with your background in AA and BT...
Again, my comment was specifically addressing the bus station and David Pollard's comment that showed conflicting feelings regarding the cool old bus station and whatever it must have replaced at some point. Although the station probably required the demo of some quality building(s), it was done during a time when downtown was much more dense and there may have been few choices but to tear something down to build it, much as the construction of the ESB required demolitions in the very dense Midtown Manhattan. A higher and better use makes some demos more palatable.

But we've moved so far away from that kind of density that - as others have pointed out - there are RARELY overwhelmingly good reasons for teardown in OKC vs. building on empty lots.

But we've moved so far away from that kind of density that - as others have pointed out - there are RARELY overwhelmingly good reasons for teardown in OKC vs. building on empty lots.

There are plenty of good reason to tear down existing structures and replace them in OKC. What is unfortunate is when the "new replacement" is more suburban then what was razed.

Why is the title of this thread General Urban Development all of a sudden?

There are plenty of good reason to tear down existing structures and replace them in OKC. What is unfortunate is when the "new replacement" is more suburban then what was razed.
Should've been more specific. There are not too many compelling reasons to tear down most of the buildings left in downtown, when there is generally an available empty lot right next door. Again, I'm almost always willing to accept the legitimate "higher and better use" argument (see Aloft/Finley Building, or Bricktown Ballpark), but would strongly prefer infill where possible. And in downtown OKC, it is nearly ALWAYS possible.

You can tear down almost everything north of 50th and south of Capitol Hill and get no argument from me. In fact, please do.

Because I moved a ton of threads from the Preftakes thread, as this is completely off that topic.

Because I moved a ton of threads from the Preftakes thread, as this is completely off that topic.

Ahhhh so! Thanks Pete! You tha man ;-)

Should've been more specific. There are not too many compelling reasons to tear down most of the buildings left in downtown, when there is generally an available empty lot right next door. Again, I'm almost always willing to accept the legitimate "higher and better use" argument (see Aloft/Finley Building, or Bricktown Ballpark), but would strongly prefer infill where possible. And in downtown OKC, it is nearly ALWAYS possible.

You can tear down almost everything north of 50th and south of Capitol Hill and get no argument from me. In fact, please do.

I think you re-wording is the general agreement amongst us fellow travelers.

In other words, the Preftakes block (and other land around MBG - i.e. Stage Center and Cox site) are ready for step 2.

Yeah, but only by skipping your first step. The reality is that the Preftakes block IS a high density block by Oklahoma City standards and it sits caddy corner from a entirely empty lot that right now, along with the parking garage across the street, only serve to disconnect the CBD from film row. If the empty lot was developed and the Preftakes lot improved, but not demolished, there would be a much greater net gain in development density.

I know it's not going to happen that way, if for nothing else it's just not done that way here. I'm just saying there is still plenty of room to increase the density of development in OKC without tearing down a single building, which is how you increase density exponentially instead of incrementally.

The empty block on the south side of Sheridan cater corner to the bus station is the selected site of the (funded) downtown school.

And Now for Something Completely Different …
http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2012/02/10/and-now-for-something-completely-different/

And Now for Something Completely Different …
http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2012/02/10/and-now-for-something-completely-different/

I must be a real man, cause I didn't cry...

Penn Station and the theater in OKC were not only archetectural gems, theyalso contributed positivly to the community they were in. Their placement on the ground help define the urban enviornment that they were a part of. Stage Center does the exact opposite - it reduces the density and walkability of the surrounding area by creating negative space and not defining the open space. It is a suburban layout (a structure in a sea of open space) in what should be the most urban part of Oklahoma. Is it better than a vacant lot? Yes, but bearly.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/Image3.jpg

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/Image2.jpg

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/Image1.jpg

What book are those illustrations from again? I know it's been recommended on here before..

What book are those illustrations from again? I know it's been recommended on here before..

101 Things I Learned in Architecture School by Matthew Frederick. You can find it on the shelf at Barnes and Noble. While you are there check out Anatomy of a Skyscraper. It is also full of urban design principles.

on edit - LOL, leave one letter out of skyscraper and it totally changes the meaning.

While you are there check out Anatomy of a Skyscraper. It is also full of urban design principles.

Are you talking about The Heights: Anatomy of a Skyscraper by Kate Ascher? Just want to make sure...

That is it.