Anyone else wish there were more traditional architecture designs in new buildings?

Gothic is my all time favorite. I would build a gothic style home complete with suits of armor if the wife would let me. When I look at something like Devon Tower, I appreciate what Devon has done but I would have rather had 10 or 12 three to five story buildings like the one pictured above or in your link. Tall buildings are cool from a distance, but up close most of the building is visually wasted since you can't see it. Low-rise building are up close and personal.

Give me this over NYC, Chicago, or Hong Kong any day:

http://www.360cities.net/london-photo-en.html

Zoom in on the old church with the green roof near the bottom... Can't spend too much time on this or I won't get anything done.

Hong Kong definitely. But I think there is something to be said for the density of the skyscrapers in NYC and Chicago.

I really like that building in the above picture. You can tell it's new but it has a timeless look to it. This is definitely not a building that will be torn down in several years to make way for Walmart's parking lot. Or at least, I hope not...

UnFrSaKn, don't you think this thread would be a good one to show what urban is REALLY like, per your earlier Nyc PM?

Agreed,some people have never truly been to an URBAN city!Here's a true URBAN city-Boston!http://ts1.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=877620363528&id=4b0305789028dadb86d9e1858c2ec1a0&url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.raubacapeu.net%2fpeople%2fyve s%2fpictures%2f2001%2f03%2f03%2fdsc20010303025.jpg http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=527521941145&id=a648f1dd91ccb12ac3c9d51549457edb&url=http%3a%2f%2fimg125.imageshack.us%2fimg125%2f5 28%2fboston5zb6.jpghttp://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=764697782769&id=e32b166271d9615b02c9bdbdcdc50017&url=http%3a%2f%2fc.photoshelter.com%2fimg-get%2fI0000Id5Y7JkfyUk%2fs%2f850%2f850%2fBoston-Back-Bay-Row-Houses.JPGhttp://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=524434286414&id=9ba71284ccd7e306f3a84338dcbf9670&url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.cyburbia.org%2fgallery%2fdata %2f6302%2fBoston_Skyline.jpg

I'm by no means a world traveler, much less a States traveler. I'm going to Denver for a visit and anniversary a week from Monday. I've only been downtown once, and for not very long and in the middle of the night. I ran across this and holy cow.... I love this.

Link (http://www.360cities.net/map#lat=39.7483&lng=-104.98891&name=colorado-denver-downtown-20th-and-broadway-church&zoom=17)

The building I loved the most in Denver, when I used to walk downtown for school, was the Art Museum. I'd post a picture, but I'm not sure what my photobucket password is. So here's a link. I don't think the photo does it justice.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.artnet.com/Images/magazine/reviews/robinson/robinson10-16-10.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.artnet.com/magazineus/reviews/robinson/robinson10-16-06_detail.asp%3Fpicnum%3D14&h=345&w=460&sz=88&tbnid=V7DyfMoRwh2swM:&tbnh=96&tbnw=128&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dpicture%2Bof%2Bold%2Bdowntown%2BDenve r%2Bart%2Bmuseum%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=picture+of+old+downtown+Denver+art+museum&hl=en&usg=__H98_0LANUw9DtogVi9WQ690qrio=&sa=X&ei=W-6lTbzSF4qEtgfRl8zGAg&ved=0CCIQ9QEwAA

I was going to mention this, but next week I'll be in Denver again. Other than 1999 Broadway and the Brown Hotel, anyone got suggestions on what to stop by downtown? I only went down there once and it was around midnight. I won't be in town long.

Anyone else wish there were more traditional architecture designs in new buildings?

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=176535&page=16

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/6923/goodaleandhighview1.jpg

I had to click off of that thread when I saw a picture of a real fire station that was recently built...

But definitely check out 16th Street! For an idea of what C2S could possibly be, check out the Central Platte Valley.

The building I loved the most in Denver, when I used to walk downtown for school, was the Art Museum. I'd post a picture, but I'm not sure what my photobucket password is. So here's a link. I don't think the photo does it justice.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.artnet.com/Images/magazine/reviews/robinson/robinson10-16-10.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.artnet.com/magazineus/reviews/robinson/robinson10-16-06_detail.asp%3Fpicnum%3D14&h=345&w=460&sz=88&tbnid=V7DyfMoRwh2swM:&tbnh=96&tbnw=128&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dpicture%2Bof%2Bold%2Bdowntown%2BDenve r%2Bart%2Bmuseum%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=picture+of+old+downtown+Denver+art+museum&hl=en&usg=__H98_0LANUw9DtogVi9WQ690qrio=&sa=X&ei=W-6lTbzSF4qEtgfRl8zGAg&ved=0CCIQ9QEwAA

Betts, I hope that photo doesn't do it justice. It looks like a jail. LOL

I had to click off of that thread when I saw a picture of a real fire station that was recently built...

But definitely check out 16th Street! For an idea of what C2S could possibly be, check out the Central Platte Valley.

Spartan, I'm not disagreeing but don't forget this recent quote:

"I'm growing weary of posts that follow the mold of...

THIS is what OKC needs to do!
[insert out of state development here] "

I think this is the first time I've agreed with ljbab728...

We've still got a long ways to go.


http://vimeo.com/22867208

I only had an hour to walk ten blocks up Broadway, then back down. I parked on a meter that actually took cards! How is it, the home of the parking meter, and we don't have these?
I also kept looking for the button on the lights to get a cross signal, then realized they're all automated... totally felt like a country bumpkin.
As I mentioned, I got the Brown Palace Hotel and 1999 Broadway and the church next to it. There's a much more beautiful church off Pennsylvania and Colfax but didn't have time.

The "Sports Authority" building blew my mind when I walked down the street and saw it for the first time.

The "stop" frame makes me cry out, "Baum Building ... where art thou?" It's a beautiful video but one full of sadness of Oklahoma Citians when we see so vividly what COULD have been done here instead of what was. Very very sad. I'm glad that Denver got it right.

Did you attend a Thunder game during your trip? Was it great?

No, I was only in town for a few days. Will be back in August for a wedding.

I've seen a few parking meters that take cards in downtown.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dplwesternhistory/page18/

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2637/4055568943_bd3b54c035_o.jpg

I think this is the first time I've agreed with ljbab728...

LOL, me too...

You are right Larry, height has nothing to do with urban/suburban. It has to do with how the space around the building. Urban buildings define the empty space and suburban building are in the middle of empty space. Sandridge has made all the space around them empty - ergo - suburban. 99% of London is under 5 stories and nearly every square inch of it is urban.

Rover, what I meant in saying it was more appropriate in a suburban setting had nothing to do with the height of the building but the plazas, surface parking lots etc surrounding it (much like the other tower office buildings along NW Expressway. Sandridge is tearing down the urban buildings around it. All I am saying, if that is the look they want, build it where it is more appropriate rather than destroying what little urban fabric we have left.

They are putting surface parking there? I guess I missed that.

I think height is more associated with urban core and less with suburban. It adds to the density, of course. Urban is not just one criteria. A downtown of one story buildings built to the sidewalk wouldn't necessarily be a hallmark of "urban".

Rover: you missed the "plazas" I mentioned right before the surface parking part...

Urban is not just one criteria. A downtown of one story buildings built to the sidewalk wouldn't necessarily be a hallmark of "urban".

It just about would yes. For some reason you keep trying to associate 'urban' with 'height'. The two have nothing to do with each other. Burj Khalifa is the tallest building world (in a city with dozens of building exceeding 1,000 feet in height) but it isn't urban. You aren't going to walk from Burj Khalifa to anywhere else, it is too far. Downtown Norman is more urban than Dubai.

This is not urban - it is suburban. None of those building define the empty space between them. The buildings are all sitting in open space. In fact, people think Dubai is urban for the very reason it is actully suburban - because the buildings look out of place.
http://www.magicalurbanism.com/wp-images/postimg/dubai2.jpg


If the picture on the left was all one story building, and the one on the right were all 500' buildings, which would be more urban?
http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/Image3.jpg

It just about would yes. For some reason you keep trying to associate 'urban' with 'height'. The two have nothing to do with each other. Burj Khalifa is the tallest building world (in a city with dozens of building exceeding 1,000 feet in height) but it isn't urban. You aren't going to walk from Burj Khalifa to anywhere else, it is too far. Downtown Norman is more urban than Dubai.

I doubt you've spent time in Dubai then, as I have. To say Norman is more urban is inane and injures credibility. Dubai is much more urban than OKC and many cities in the US. In fact, I worked on that project a little with SOM (the designer) in Chicago. You probably don't know the master plan for it. There are almost 200 mid and high-rises planned for the immediate surrounding area with density that rivals Chicago or NYC. You can't look at a still and think you've seen the movie.


http://transracial.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/dubai.jpg

As for the Medieval illustration, it is a over simplistic representation of more complex issues. I doubt we want to hold up Medieval cities as the ideal for modern urban requirements. They also had horrible transportation systems for today's use, overcrowding led to quickly spreading epidemics, etc., etc. Today's urban areas have much different requirements and expectations from its citizens.

When you look at that picture you just posted, which part is more urban, the houses or the tall buildings?

This is what the tall buildings look like when you view it from above. Does all that open space around the buildings define the buildings, or do the buildings define the open space? Both pcitures are taken from the same place, just at different altitudes.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/dubai.jpg

Honestly, I don't know why you aren't understanding. When you look at that picture you just posted, which part is more urban, the houses or the tall buildings? (Both pcitures are taken from the same place, just at different altitudes)

This is what the tall buildings look like when you view it from above. Does all that open space around the buildings define the buildings, or do the buildings define the open space?

You should actually go see and experience it. By your definition of urban even, most Middle Eastern cities are way more urban than OKC anyway. Anyone can take a micro view and anyone can be a Google expert. But that is like reading Wine Spectator and thinking yourself a wine expert vs actually drinking and finding the fine wines you enjoy. Sometimes to appreciate what you are reading about you have to actually TASTE to put it in context and to give it reality.

When you were in Dubai did you drive from place to place or walk?

It is true, yes, most middle-eastern cities are more urban than OKC, and have an abundance of history and culture to top it off. But I don't need to visit when I have access to a plethora of opinion, fact, reference material, and everything else I need to know about Dubai. You do not walk in that city, even aside from summers that are much more intense than ours. Their streets are boulevards, their boulevards are highways, and their highways are some double-digit lane nightmares. Dubai, outside from its historic core, is incredibly auto-centric and unless a particular super development has been planned to embrace urban design, is also very unsustainable. The city that the world knows today as Dubai was [mostly] designed for the automobile and not pedestrian.

There's a clear disconnect from Dubai's flashy architecture and its short-sighted planning practices.

When you were in Dubai did you drive from place to place or walk?

Within the last few years. In many neighborhoods we walk, and I usually have a driver. But, sometimes I'm lazy or don't know where I am going. LOL.

It is true, yes, most middle-eastern cities are more urban than OKC, and have an abundance of history and culture to top it off. But I don't need to visit when I have access to a plethora of opinion, fact, reference material, and everything else I need to know about Dubai. You do not walk in that city, even aside from summers that are much more intense than ours. Their streets are boulevards, their boulevards are highways, and their highways are some double-digit lane nightmares. Dubai, outside from its historic core, is incredibly auto-centric and unless a particular super development has been planned to embrace urban design, is also very unsustainable. The city that the world knows today as Dubai was [mostly] designed for the automobile and not pedestrian.

There's a clear disconnect from Dubai's flashy architecture and its short-sighted planning practices.

Actually, there is a lot of opportunity to walk. Most of the year is not oppressively hot and I don't suggest going about 3 months of the year. However, your point is well taken about the modern streets, boulevards and highways. Much money is spent on the signature buildings and they like for them to be shown off. I do disagree about the "short sighted"ness. If fact, I think it is the fact they are planning WAY too far out and much more grandiose that makes it hard for them to achieve the real potential for world class urbanization. In China they often think too near in and create transportation systems, etc. that are overtaxed by the time they open. The Khalifa's have great vision, but sometimes lack reality in how quickly or how much will happen. Therefore, like OKC, they wind up with undeveloped gaps...ours from tearing down for ambitious plans and they for making space for big plans that take a long time to fill.

And, as for visiting vs. research, I do not condemn research. But to truly know about something I think you must ultimately experience it and observe for yourself. Archaeologists go on digs. Wine connoisseurs visit wineries and go on tasting tours.

Wasn't walking so much better than having to drive?

Wasn't walking so much better than having to drive?

Not necessarily. I like having a driver. LOL

Dubai will be in ruins in 25 years. That is just my opinion, of course. Kitsch Moderne. Carnival. Beyond the pale.

Dubai will be in ruins in 25 years. That is just my opinion, of course. Kitsch Moderne. Carnival. Beyond the pale.

Not sure why you say that. Most of the projects are designed by leading world design and engineering firms and built by some of the leading international contractors in the world.

Mainly because I don't believe it is a good place to try to sustain life. If half the money spent on glitz had been spent on finding ways to desalinate MASSIVE amounts of water I think their long range future would a little brighter. Dubai exists because there was money to waste but when the oil in the region there will be no reason for anyone to live there. Again, all this is just my opinion.

Mainly because I don't believe it is a good place to try to sustain life. If half the money spent on glitz had been spent on finding ways to desalinate MASSIVE amounts of water I think their long range future would a little brighter. Dubai exists because there was money to waste but when the oil in the region there will be no reason for anyone to live there. Again, all this is just my opinion.

With all due respect, I don't think you know Dubai or the Emirates, at all. Dubai is a TRADING center, not an oil center. The Khalifas were of the belief that if you build the transportation, banking, and tax infrastructure that it would attract capital and population. It is "build it and they will come" philosophy. They have attracted companies and wealthy individuals from around the world.

I am aware of that, Rover, and that is why I included the whole region when considering Dubai's future. I believe there is a glut of "boom" cities in the near and far easts and that only so many of them can be sustained for the long haul. I fear they will have "spent their wads", so to speak, before the problem of water is solved. I imagine you know far more than I about the region so I can't really argue with you but I fear that cities like Dubai will have the same fate as McMansion neighborhooods, eventual "wastelands."

As long as Dubai provides favorable tax structures, is safe, and is a trading capital while being easy to get into and out of it will do just fine. There is already massive desalinization. The trick with desalinization and current technology is the high amount of energy used. While there is still plenty of oil in the area and they have access then desal is not going to be the problem. And, I am aware of some newer technology that may make it less expensive. After all, water is the future oil and lots of smart people are working on desal.

Dubai has world class shopping, some of the world's finest hotels, great food and is an incredibly interesting part of the world. I love going back.

I'll quit worrying about them so much, then.

Comment on another fourum regarding the Devon Energy Center:
[LEFT][COLOR=#000000]im sure it looks nice from far away. but big deal. that site plan and building orientation leaves little to be desired. might as well be in the 'burbs. seems we never learn how to make a quality urban environment. you certainly dont get there by buildings things that only look good a mile away.

As a new urbanist myself, let me second that complaint. On a scale of 1 to 5, I give the tower a 4. It isn't a 5 because from an urban design perspective it accomplishes nothing at the street level. It doesn't have curb appeal - it has 10 miles away appeal. To bad most people who will interact with it will be more interested in the curb appeal.

As a new urbanist myself, let me second that complaint. On a scale of 1 to 5, I give the tower a 4. It isn't a 5 because from an urban design perspective it accomplishes nothing at the street level. It doesn't have curb appeal - it has 10 miles away appeal. To bad most people who will interact with it will be more interested in the curb appeal.

Since your new at being an urbanist, let me school you a little. This tower's functionality was not to satisfy curb appeal. It was built to meet the needs of an energy company. If you want curb appeal, Devon offers just that on the west end of their super block. A quality urban environment doesn't necessitate 100% curb appeal. Devon wanted to make sure the tower appealed to both the public as well as its own employees. That's why the rotunda and garden wing even exists. They set the garden wing back from the street to make way for the auditorium.

Before the Devon Tower existed it was a giant parking lot. How is that for curb appeal?

I think it looks just fantastic. No need to be "urban" or "suburban" cuz those terms are just stupid. Just wait until its all finished and you'll be totally amazed. Heck, we should be having a massive influx of downtown buyers/renters for home living.

Since your new at being an urbanist, let me school you a little. This tower's functionality was not to satisfy curb appeal. It was built to meet the needs of an energy company. If you want curb appeal, Devon offers just that on the west end of their super block. A quality urban environment doesn't necessitate 100% curb appeal. Devon wanted to make sure the tower appealed to both the public as well as its own employees. That's why the rotunda and garden wing even exists. They set the garden wing back from the street to make way for the auditorium.

Before the Devon Tower existed it was a giant parking lot. How is that for curb appeal?

^^I agree with this post!People also tend to forget that without this tower being built there would be no Project 180,which makes dt OKC more pedestrian friendly and more urban imo!

Since your new at being an urbanist, let me school you a little. This tower's functionality was not to satisfy curb appeal. It was built to meet the needs of an energy company. If you want curb appeal, Devon offers just that on the west end of their super block. A quality urban environment doesn't necessitate 100% curb appeal. Devon wanted to make sure the tower appealed to both the public as well as its own employees. That's why the rotunda and garden wing even exists. They set the garden wing back from the street to make way for the auditorium.

Before the Devon Tower existed it was a giant parking lot. How is that for curb appeal?

I am a 'new urbanist' not a new 'urbanist'. New Urbanism is the movement. I have been an urbanist for 40 years. All those items you just listed is why it got a 4 out 5 and not a 0 out 5. It would have gotten the 5th point it if it didn't have a lot of negative open space between the building and the sidewalk.

Now let me school you. I am a 'new urbanist' not a new 'urbanist'. New Urbanism is the movement. I have been an urbanist for 40 years. All those items you just listed is why it got a 4 out 5 and not a 0 out 5. It would have gotten the 5th point it if it didn't have a lot of negative open space between the building and the sidewalk.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dude, there is nothing wrong with having space between the building and the sidewalk. Its to handle human (and animal) traffic, landscaping, and water. Yes, I said that right, there are water/pond among some areas of the tower as shown in the renderings. Now, why would you want a building to be right up to the tower...street? That is just an insane joke.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dude, there is nothing wrong with having space between the building and the sidewalk. Its to handle human (and animal) traffic, landscaping, and water. Yes, I said that right, there are water/pond among some areas of the tower as shown in the renderings. Now, why would you want a building to be right up to the tower...street? That is just an insane joke.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Animal?JTF was just stating that a tower fronting a street would be MORE urban!Thunder have you ever been to a truly urban city?

Having been to cities like Boston,NYC,Vancouver and San Fran,I know what Just the Facts is trying to say but this is OKC and we should be happy with whats going on in this city!

Having been to cities like Boston,NYC,Vancouver and San Fran,I know what Just the Facts is trying to say but this is OKC and we should be happy with whats going on in this city!

Thanks dmoor82. To expound on your "should be happy with" comment. I understand that something is better than nothing and I am not saying I am not happy - I could just be happier. That's all. Devon set the new standard in OKC and I just hope whomever is next exceeds that standard - not in height but in urban design.

Regarding the streetwall with the Devon tower, it seems no one is thinking of the whole west side along Hudson and the potential for retail in the bottom of the parking garage. There was no street interaction before on any side.

Regarding the streetwall with the Devon tower, it seems no one is thinking of the whole west side along Hudson and the potential for retail in the bottom of the parking garage. There was no street interaction before on any side.

Many have thought about it, but it was not built with that in capability, but I'm sure it could be remodeled easily. On one of these pages, I posted pics from the front and back of those faux retail spots.

You are right Metro - what appears to be a retail spot has a concrete block wall a few feet behind the glass. I assume those could be easily removed when the time comes. Of course mcca7596 brings up a good point and it true that the site on 3 sides has good urban design - hince my 4 star rating. The big front yard - not so urban.

some people would complain if they were hung w/ a new rope... "too scratchy..."

If you see it as complaining then so be it. I like to look it at as continous improvement.

Having been to cities like Boston,NYC,Vancouver and San Fran,I know what Just the Facts is trying to say but this is OKC and we should be happy with whats going on in this city!

I have also been to all of those great cities and they have some comparable great developments that Just the Facts might also criticize that I find wonderful.

http://montgomerycapitalpartners.com/img/properties/embarcadero_centers_1-4,_embarcadero_center_west,_old_federal_reserve.jp g

http://www.portmanholdings.com/images/image_Embarcadero_plaza_zoom.jpg

Exactly, ljbab728. Having buildings up to the sidewalk/street is just a complete joke and not people-friendly. It also make it horrible on the landscaping and other designs.

It has it's place Thunder, you don't want every building to have a plaza. It can be people friendly in that you step right off the sidewalk and go in... easy. It also can be just as aesthetically pleasing to have a streetwall.

The amount of open space should be proportional to building density; buildings should define the space around them in my opinion.

It has it's place Thunder, you don't want every building to have a plaza. It can be people friendly in that you step right off the sidewalk and go in... easy. It also can be just as aesthetically pleasing to have a streetwall.

The amount of open space should be proportional to building density; buildings should define the space around them in my opinion.

I agree and I think Devon has accomplished that. For Sandridge, the jury is out.

Exactly, ljbab728. Having buildings up to the sidewalk/street is just a complete joke and not people-friendly. It also make it horrible on the landscaping and other designs.

Some truly Urban cities dont have the luxury of having plaza's and such,there just isnt the space,How is it a joke to have towers that butt up against streets?Seems more logical and urban too me!I Love what Devon has done here and it works for OKC but might not be feasible in other cities!

http://montgomerycapitalpartners.com/img/properties/embarcadero_centers_1-4,_embarcadero_center_west,_old_federal_reserve.jp g

You guys need to look at that photo again. Those building are built out to the street.

Some people sure are dogmatic and take ONE principle of urban design and think regurgitating it makes them an expert. OKC is not New York City, Tokyo or Singapore. And they might be surprised how much diversity their is in those cities anyway. People need to see the world and get a dose of reality.

Some people sure are dogmatic and take ONE principle of urban design and think regurgitating it makes them an expert. OKC is not New York City, Tokyo or Singapore. And they might be surprised how much diversity their is in those cities anyway. People need to see the world and get a dose of reality.

A picture was posted showing what the person considered good urban design and then stated I would criticize it. If you look at the picture, the buildings are pushed out to the sidewalk. The picture validates what I said. I'm not sure what makes that hard to understand.

http://montgomerycapitalpartners.com/img/properties/embarcadero_centers_1-4,_embarcadero_center_west,_old_federal_reserve.jp g

You guys need to look at that photo again. Those building are built out to the street.

I have been to and in those buildings. They aren't and have some plaza type areas. No more or less than Devon has.