Sheraton....delete the mall portion...replace with mixed use...

Huh?

Isn't a mall an example of mixed use?

It can be but most malls are just retail. They usually don't have office or residential components.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-use_development



Mixed-use development is the practice of allowing more than one type of use in a building or set of buildings. In planning zone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoning) terms, this can mean some combination of residential, commercial, industrial, office, institutional, or other land uses. The concept of "mixed-use" as a discrete zone is predicated on the relatively recent practice of single-use zoning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-use_zoning) wherein uses in all other parts of a community are widely separated by legislative mandate.


The problem with most zoning is that they try to apply a 2D land use requirment on a 3D world. Look at a zoning map. Does it look 3D to you?

http://www.co.lancaster.pa.us/lititz/lib/lititz/2006-01-Lititz_Borough_Zoning_Map.jpg

I read the quarterly report that the OKC Chamber of Commerce gave to the Oklahoma City Economic Development Trust, and the Chamber mentioned that there were two National Aviation companies that were looking at Oklahoma City for new operations, one is 591 jobs, and the other 594, the kicker is that one of them is primarily interested in downtown location.

So we might see a new high-rise after all, with the limited Class A space we have...

Moreover, a high-rise to support at least 600 employees could easily be 20 stories, but companies usually build for future expansion, so they would probably want something a little bigger!

so what do you think about this observation, Kerry?

If they are national aviation companies I am sure these numbers (591 and 594) represent headquarters personnel (reservation centers alone would employ that many). The only airline I can think of would be Southwest Airlines, if it is even an airline.

Spirit Aerosystems in Wichita already has significant manufacturing operations in Oklahoma so they could be looking for a place to put headquarters staff. I think a building like the current Devon Tower would be about the right size for 600 people.

However, there are many more people on OKCTalk more in-tune with the aviation world than me.

If they are national aviation companies I am sure these numbers (591 and 594) represent headquarters personnel (reservation centers alone would employ that many). The only airline I can think of would be Southwest Airlines, if it is even an airline.

Spirit Aerosystems in Wichita already has significant manufacturing operations in Oklahoma so they could be looking for a place to put headquarters staff. I think a building like the current Devon Tower would be about the right size for 600 people.

However, there are many more people on OKCTalk more in-tune with the aviation world than me.

Landing the Spirit HQ would be great for the city. They are currently HQ'd in Wichita and employ over 10,000 people there at the HQ and in manufacturing. They also have a large engineering/manufacturing presence in Tulsa employing over 2,000 people and recently announced they are adding 200 jobs at that facility this year.

If they are national aviation companies I am sure these numbers (591 and 594) represent headquarters personnel (reservation centers alone would employ that many). The only airline I can think of would be Southwest Airlines, if it is even an airline.

Spirit Aerosystems in Wichita already has significant manufacturing operations in Oklahoma so they could be looking for a place to put headquarters staff. I think a building like the current Devon Tower would be about the right size for 600 people.

However, there are many more people on OKCTalk more in-tune with the aviation world than me.

The company wanting to locate downtown is probably strictly corporate jobs, but i doubt they would need 50 + stories, I was thinking maybe 25-30 stories...

The other aviation company did state they needed room for manufacturing, so more than likely they will need an bigger site plan, so they prob won't end up downtown...

Landing the Spirit HQ would be great for the city. They are currently HQ'd in Wichita and employ over 10,000 people there at the HQ and in manufacturing. They also have a large engineering/manufacturing presence in Tulsa employing over 2,000 people and recently announced they are adding 200 jobs at that facility this year.

I wouldn't rule out Boeing, here is a quote from article published by the OKC Chamber, when Boeing announced the 550 job move last year:

Hendrickson said Boeing is "not done announcing" other moves. Here's hoping Oklahoma stays on the company's list of best options. And if Californians don't want them, we'll certainly take all the good-paying jobs the company has to offer.

Boeing Headquarters are currently in Chicago but Boeing is one of those companies that operates as an umbrella organization. They have dozens of wholly-owned subsidiaries with their own corporate structures.

BTW – when I said “current Devon Tower” I mean the one on Broadway, not the new on under construction.

yep, so I wouldn't be surprised if one of those companies was Boeing...

we already developed a good reputation with them...

yep, so I wouldn't be surprised if one of those companies was Boeing...

we already developed a good reputation with them...

You might be on to something with Boeing. They have moved several of the divisional headquarters to smaller cities. Oddly enough, they move their defense operations to St Louis back in '03 and it was about 500 jobs. This is the same division that just moved the jobs from Long Beach to OKC.

http://akin.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1173&Itemid=68


The decision represents as many as 500 new jobs in St. Louis in the next year, makes St. Louis central to efforts to create and integrate new battlefield technologies.

That's not surprising though. Boeing bought McDonnell-Douglas years ago in an attempt to diversify their offerings away from mostly commercial. Now they're more like 50/50 commercial and defense. St. Louis was of course where M-D was located... M-D had way more defense work then Boeing ever had... it makes sense that St. Louis ended up becoming the divisional headquarters for defense.

I don't see a company like Boeing moving their world headquarters to a city that doesn't have a large air hub and substantial international flights. I'm sure the quote was referring to additional individual programs moving around.

What about the parking lot that used to be nothing but grass, west of Stage Center?

Map (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=35.465582,-97.521923&spn=0.004739,0.008256&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=35.466435,-97.521229&panoid=tXvok5Wg4T1M-tdwFzn0oA&cbp=12,221.7,,0,-3.07)

Map (http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=px9z186w5x6f&lvl=19.603071790898714&dir=3.694172475148073&sty=x~lat~35.466454~lon~-97.521238~alt~340.56~z~30~h~-118.2~p~2.8~pid~5082&app=5082)

25-35 stories would sure look great somewhere between center downtown and the Regency tower. When looking downtown from the west it just looks like a highrise should be there.

Kerry:

Thanks for the info. Would Shepherd Mall be an example of mixed use? Started out as a regular retail mall but when it lost most of its retail, converted to office space etc? Could the same be done with the Sheraton Mall? Granted it might be cheaper to level it and rebuild than to remodel but just asking. Maybe that describes 50 Penn Place (retail mall on the bottom couple of floors w/office above)?

no worry about Boeing World Headquarters moving to OKC, happy in Downtown Chicago where it really belongs, thank you.

I can't speak for the divisions, perhaps military might want to increase their OKC presence. ....

Current Devon Building is a good size. ..... and OKC does have lots of flights already to Chicago, LA, STL, DC. ......


Hmmmmm - are people sure its Continental and not, Boeing _____ Group?

[QUOTE=UnFrSaKn;399089]What about the parking lot that used to be nothing but grass, west of Stage Center?

I think I remember hearing/reading that that space was being reserved for a cultural related facility, such as a new symphony hall. It is indeed a prime location that should be densely filled in one way or another. Perhaps a combination of cultural and high-rise: "OKC Symphony Residential Towers"... like?

None of the mill site is used for ramps unless you consider what was under the old i40 that will become the new boulevard part of that site, a small fraction is used for the rail road bed but that is practically where it was before (and might have made the sight larger). The Harrison/6th street ramps will be relocated to 10th street (which already has funding according to the 8 year plan).

note the south bound harrison/6th ramps are not going away .. just the north bound harrison exit

None of the mill site is used for ramps unless you consider what was under the old i40 that will become the new boulevard part of that site, a small fraction is used for the rail road bed but that is practically where it was before (and might have made the sight larger). The Harrison/6th street ramps will be relocated to 10th street (which already has funding according to the 8 year plan).

I could be wrong and it wouldn't be the first time. But I did see this on a website.

Follow this link to the new I-40 (http://40forward.com/) website. Click on the red "Tour the Project-Interactive Project Map Available Now!" arrow. A map of the new location of I-40 will come up. In the orange middle section there will be text that says "Producers Co-Op Mill" and it will have a ramp going around it. Have plans changed or am I just looking at the map wrong?

It appears that there will be a ramp or some sort of road in that area. At least it looks that way according to that website.

I could be wrong and it wouldn't be the first time. But I did see this on a website.

Follow this link to the new I-40 (http://40forward.com/) website. Click on the red "Tour the Project-Interactive Project Map Available Now!" arrow. A map of the new location of I-40 will come up. In the orange middle section there will be text that says "Producers Co-Op Mill" and it will have a ramp going around it. Have plans changed or am I just looking at the map wrong?

It appears that there will be a ramp or some sort of road in that area. At least it looks that way according to that website.

That isn't a ramp. The "orange" around the mill are train tracks that service the mill.

That orange section can be turned on/off so don't understand why existing railroad tracks wold be part of the relocation map. That is confusing.

That railroad track was rebuilt last year. The tracks in the construction area were moved because of the highway.

So, if I understand this correctly, if the convention center is built on the Cotton Mill site, there will be new freight train tracks circling the property?

So, if I understand this correctly, if the convention center is built on the Cotton Mill site, there will be new freight train tracks circling the property?

No - once the Co-op Mill and Lumberyard are gone there will be no reason for the tracks at all.

Which means the new tracks that have been installed will have to be ripped out

Which means the new tracks that have been installed will have to be ripped out

Maybe, but there are various levels or rail installment. These are not mainline tracks and temporary tracks can be laid pretty quick and cheap.

But what about the removal? From the previous posts it sounded like the new tracks were already completed as part of the I-40 relocation???

Maybe leave them there and let the convention goers arrive by freight...LOL

The co-op mill has already purchased land to move to, I think it was the old Bridgestone/Firestone plant, but it will still be years before they can get zoning/permits/design/construction completed.

25-35 stories would sure look great somewhere between center downtown and the Regency tower. When looking downtown from the west it just looks like a highrise should be there.


I read the quarterly report that the OKC Chamber of Commerce gave to the Oklahoma City Economic Development Trust, and the Chamber mentioned that there were two National Aviation companies that were looking at Oklahoma City for new operations, one is 591 jobs, and the other 594, the kicker is that one of them is primarily interested in downtown location.

So we might see a new high-rise after all, with the limited Class A space we have...

Moreover, a high-rise to support at least 600 employees could easily be 20 stories, but companies usually build for
future expansion, so they would probably want something a little bigger!

so what do you think about this observation, Kerry?

Expect a mid rise in reality, not a high-rise.


Kerry:

Thanks for the info. Would Shepherd Mall be an example of mixed use? Started out as a regular retail mall but when it lost most of its retail, converted to office space etc? Could the same be done with the Sheraton Mall? Granted it might be cheaper to level it and rebuild than to remodel but just asking. Maybe that describes 50 Penn Place (retail mall on the bottom couple of floors w/office above)?


Google Mockingbird Station or Park Lane in Dallas, those are good examples of modern mixed use

One site that has always caught my eye is the SE corner of Broadway and Robert S. Kerr. Although currently occupied by a drive through bank and the Skirvin's ballroom facility, Building a tower of at least 40-46 buildings on that site would add so much texture and density to the over all skyline view of downtown OKC. By building up to the sidewalks at the base, the N-S view would still leave the Chase Bank tower visible from the north, and fill in a very noticeable void in the skyline from an E-W perspective. This would also create a great deal of "visual density" to OKC's skyline.

As for building styles and aesthetics, I would make the glass exterior ANY color but blue. We have more than enough of those and, instead, I would look at cladding such a building in either a muted shade of yellow or Oklahoma clay soil red for contrast.

In the St. Anthony area designed by Albert Speer, Jr. Mixed use condos and office. Provide an adjacent parking garage. Add to this an overhead tram from 23rd, thru SOSA to downtown.

The old Sonic HQ building was only built to 1/2 of its intended height. It's a block west of the Skirvin. Build the top half and you have awesome infill.

The old Sonic HQ building was only built to 1/2 of its intended height. It's a block west of the Skirvin. Build the top half and you have awesome infill.

Unless they changed it well after construction had started, it seems incredibly unlikely they did not realize that they would be wasting a tone of money on excess capacity on the lower floors support capacity and changed the specifications for materials. Not to mention given how many place to put a tall building are available why start with an old base.

The old Sonic HQ building was only built to 1/2 of its intended height. It's a block west of the Skirvin. Build the top half and you have awesome infill.
I remember that there was speculation and even renderings back in the 80's about extending the height of that building to its originally intended height. It would indeed be great infill and, apparently, the superstructure could sustain the extra floors. Would it not be wonderful if this was done, something like my primitive rendering below, yet with the original facade reinstated? Don't have photoshop, but you get the idea. I've also added the Chamber of Commerce building, plus a tower in that gaping hole in Downtown.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8318229/BC%20Clark%20extension.key.pdf

Would love to see the rendering David, but for some reason it is X'd out when I view your post. Any help?

I remember that there was speculation and even renderings back in the 80's about extending the height of that building to its originally intended height. It would indeed be great infill and, apparently, the superstructure could sustain the extra floors. Would it not be wonderful if this was done, something like my primitive rendering below, yet with the original facade reinstated? Don't have photoshop, but you get the idea. I've also added the Chamber of Commerce building, plus a tower in that gaping hole in Downtown.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8318229/BC%20Clark%20extension.key.pdf

How about this?
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8318229/Board%20Insurance/BC%20Clark%20extension.key.pdf

A location that has always caught my eye is that irregularly-shaped block bounded by NW 4th to the north, E.K. Gaylord to the west, NW 3rd to the south, and the railroad to the east. Just get rid of that little parking lot and BAM! (:

Good stuff DP. I want to say that was supposed to be the Skirvin Tower and it was quite a majestic building when originally proposed. Don't know what happened to stunt it's growth. It would make a gr8 corporate location literally right in the middle of everything with OKC's #1 hotel across the street.

Google is such a good friend..."In March of 1931 crews broke ground for the planned 26-level Skirvin Tower, and work continued until January of 1932, when suddenly Skirvin's resources crumbled. With only 14 levels of the superstructure completed, Skirvin was forced to temporarily abandon the project, a victim of spreading financial ruin. Early in 1934 Skirvin resumed work on the Tower, but it was not competed until 1938, and even then only a few of the 14 floors were ready for occupants. Described as a "luxury apartment-hotel," the Tower was linked to the hotel by a tunnel and many of the service employees worked in both buildings. Later owners would finish the interior and operate the Tower as a hotel until 1971, when it was completely remodeled into a glass-enclosed office building."

And here's what the bldg was supposed to be...wouldn't this be amazing today? http://www.usgwarchives.net/ok/oklahoma/postcards/skirvin.jpg

But then SandRidge would just want to tear it down and replace it with a plaza.

But then SandRidge would just want to tear it down and replace it with a plaza.

Speaking of which, last night while watching the Thunder game I saw Sandridge's "Planting trees downtown" commercial. They showed a person sitting under a tree on a large lawn in front of the Sandridge building. All I could think was....you want a lawn, you build in the suburbs.

Wow, Earrlywinegareth, that is indeed good information. How wonderful it would be to have the old facade all the way up to the 26th floor. I have to say that is really an usual design, but it would fit in just beautifully there. Part of the 'old core' of the city: something to be treasured.

Any investors out there that would take on that task?

I'd love to see more along NW Expressway, some on Memorial, Broadway Ext, I-240, I-35. We're probably the only major city our size without a decent number of mid and high rises along our major highways.

I'd love to see more along NW Expressway, some on Memorial, Broadway Ext, I-240, I-35. We're probably the only major city our size without a decent number of mid and high rises along our major highways.

Metro, your comment sort of amuses me because I've seen people arguing in other threads about how having high rises outside of the downtown area is not common in most large cities and our few should have been more focused downtown.

I know crossroads is overly brought up, but i wish they would turn that area intoa world trade market center and have large highrise hotels and highrise offices built in that area, it would look really nice the i-240 and I-35 corridor seeing a dozen or so large buildings

25-35 stories would sure look great somewhere between center downtown and the Regency tower. When looking downtown from the west it just looks like a highrise should be there.

I was thinking the exact same thing the other day when driving north on I-44. If there was just some kind of midrise development just north of the Sandridge Tower, BUT taller, it sure would help the skyline. For now it looks like an ATT commercial.

The old Sonic HQ building was only built to 1/2 of its intended height. It's a block west of the Skirvin. Build the top half and you have awesome infill.

Had the Skirvin Tower been built based on it's original plans, it would've been 360-ish feet tall, slightly shorter than SandRidge.

time for bump...

time for bump...

How many pages back did you have to go to dig this one up?

none, I started this thread about a year ago, and remembered it, so I just Googled it, lol.

I was just doing a new blog post on this that might take me a few days, but basically my gist is that the best site for new skyscrapers in OKC, without doubt, is the convention center site. By that I mean MAPS3, not the Cox site, which may also present itself as a good skyscraper site.

I was just doing a new blog post on this that might take me a few days, but basically my gist is that the best site for new skyscrapers in OKC, without doubt, is the convention center site. By that I mean MAPS3, not the Cox site, which may also present itself as a good skyscraper site.

Given it's proximity to the hub the Cox seems like a better location logistically for larger skyscrapers, but the new CC site would have a great views from most every floor on the north and south sides.

True, but the new CC site has the advantage of being on the boulevard, that is, if we are still serious about this being a well-designed boulevard. Otherwise I agree that the hub proximity is better, good catch.

I was thinking Preftake's block, and also the Sheraton Hotel mall on Sheridan Ave.