Sparty, please come back to planet Earth. Your ego has truly created some false perceptions of reality. It sounds like you're desperately trying to convince people that OKC is just as urban as LA. How so, Western Ave? The only thing dangerous here is your failure to comprehend what is urban and what is not. Really, it's okay if OKC is the small guy. Please go to LA for a few days and resubmit your report thanks.

Jed, move away from thar.
So they loaded up the truck and moved to beverly .. hills that is. Swimmin' pools. Movie Stars.

Y'all come back to BT fer a visit now, ya hear.

I think you have the Wizard of Oz complex, where you envision that the nation's 2nd largest city is this mega urban mythical city where everything is completely different from OKC in every way and that OKC is just barely a blip on the map in comparison. The reality is that LA exists on the same planet as OKC and in the same country. I don't think even NYC is as urban as you seem to suggest LA is, because most people do not realize the overwhelming majority of NYC is brownstones and mid-rises (although I would call that more urban than skyscrapers personally), and one of the 5 boroughs is entirely low-density ranch and faux tuscan houses (Staten). The majority of LA proper is not nearly as impressive as Santa Monica or Old Pasadena. Downtown LA is mostly terrible. I would say LA proper is comparable to Staten Island for the most part, and then you add in South Central and Compton.

For you to say that all of LA and most of its suburbs, which is exactly what you said, are more urban than anywhere in OKC is very untrue and relies on the forgone conclusion that LA is Oz and OKC is a ****hole. It relies on people automatically agreeing with the presumption that OKC is not urban, and I think that there are a lot of people that live in the urban parts of OKC who would beg to differ. I'd say even though downtown may be a small portion of OKC proper, it is a very downtown-centric city, especially compared to LA which is very decentralized. The decently urban parts of OKC are pretty sizable, too. It's not as though there aren't 560,000 people living in OKC, which has got to count for something..

I just think this is a dangerous suggestion that OKC isn't already and hasn't ever been urban, when in reality OKC was originally designed as a very urban, dense city, and it's those roots that OKC is looking to return to eventually. Defeatism serves no purpose, and it's more interesting to be eternally optimistic about OKC's urban prospects. There's optimistic delusion and negative delusion, both of which are less than ideal conditions. Just because you aren't a delusional booster doesn't make someone impervious.

I do think OKC and LA have very similar urban forms in many ways. One of LA's most notable urban forms are the dense strips, similar to Western Avenue or the Plaza--LA has a lot of strips of density that developed along major early corridors, many of which were streetcar corridors, similarly to OKC. And I do recognize LA is a world-class city, obviously, and has a lot of assets that are clearly in a different universe than OKC. But as a city's urban form? I'd say they are comparable, in the unlikely scenario that OKC ends up being the 2nd largest city. That's getting past my prejudice against some of the southwest and CA cities, which I just don't like that much for some reason.

I also think LA is a lot less urban than many cities that are much smaller. Portland, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, DC, Boston, Philly, Denver, New Orleans, Atlanta, Seattle, Chicago, et al are all much more urban, and IMHO more successful cities. You simply can not compare the urban quality of Pittsburgh or Portland, perhaps the best in the nation in my opinion, to that of LA. I'd put LA kind of level with Detroit, although they have very different urban forms, very similar feel, especially downtown (and I would just add that downtown Detroit is much nicer than its perception).

I made it through less than a paragraph of your rambling post--it's very apparent that you're completely detached from reality.

One thing's for sure: you have no shame.

Even if you tell me you've been to LA, I'll know you haven't really seen it. Because if you had--I mean really explored it, not just visited the standard tourist traps--you'd realize just how utterly ridiculous you sound. Frankly you would sound more reasonable trying to argue that Lawton is more urban than Tulsa.

It's not even about overall city population density (like Swake mentioned), either. LA has undeveloped land and low-density corridors like any other city. What makes LA so much more urban is that you have areas with over 100k people per square mile--covering several square miles of the city. (By comparison, the most densely populated census tracts in OKC don't even crack 10k people per square mile.) Public transit is excellent in these parts of LA, although some of these neighborhoods aren't the safest.

The bottom line is you are SO clueless that it's puzzling how anyone could take you seriously on this board.

This is just false. It leads me to think you have never been to LA. Los Angeles is one of the most densely populated areas on earth. certainly in the United States. If you think OKC is like LA then you have never been to LA.

Population density for:
Los Angeles, City - 7,828, Urbanized Area - 7,068
Oklahoma City, City - 833, Urbanized Area - 2,317

The density for LA's urbanized area is the highest in the nation, higher than New York. And in the city, how many of Oklahoma City's census tracts have 7,828 people per square mile much less averaging that over more than 400 square miles.

Here's an interesting report comparing the population densities of NYC to LA (go to page 6 for a nice map).

http://www.lewis.ucla.edu/GIScontest/OsgoogEtAl_LANYDensity_report.pdf

On this map, you can see that the core area of LA is very densely populated, as I mentioned (although it doesn't compare favorably to NYC).

If OKC was shown on this map, the entire city would be white because there are no areas with a population density over 15,000 people per square mile.

Again, this isn't even factoring in things like LA's public transit, walkability, high-rise development, etc., all of which are vastly superior to OKC.

This all paints OKC in a very bad light, of course, but that is what happens when you try to compare apples to oranges. There is absolutely NO argument whatsoever for LA not being "urban" by American standards.

Here are some population densities of cities in the LA metropolitan area:

Maywood: 28000 per sq mi
West Hollywood: 18000 per sq mi
Bell Gardens: 17000 per sq mi
Lawndale: 16000
Lynwood: 14000
Hawthorne: 13800
Santa Ana: 13120
Alhambra: 11200
Santa Monica: 10,500
Long Beach: 9800

There are actually many, many more but I think my point is clear. For comparison, Philadelphia has a density of 11200 per sq mi.

Most densely populated zip code in OKC? 73102, with 5200 people per square mile. Again, these figures above are for entire cities (all with populations over 25,000 and some with hundreds of thousands).

Who was saying LA isn't "urban?"

Actually, LA might be a perfect example. A spread out metropolis where "urban" is really a collection of suburbs - one moving right along into another. The revitalization areas of downtown Los Angeles (including rail) has proved to be a boon for residential development and all that follows. If you haven't been to downtown Los Angeles, in even the last couple of years, you haven't seen the impressive work being done. The southwestern/western style sprawling spread of a city is definitely more like Oklahoma City than Oklahoma City can ever be like Chicago (as much as I love Chicago). The huge numbers of young people moving downtown in Los Angeles is much like what we all kind of see on the horizon here. No, LA is not the "model" urban city - but it's as good an example from a big city that is very much like OKC when it comes to the planning (or lack thereof) and trying to re-urbanize within the sprawl. Of course, Pete is close and can tell you about all that much better than I can.

This is very insightful. While LA does not have the concentrated urban center like SF, Chicago, NYC, etc., it has very urban pockets. There are many districts where you can walk to dozens of stores, restaurants, and others services that are surrounded by a lot of densely arrange housing. There is nothing like that in Oklahoma City at all. Can you live there without a car? No. Is there somewhere you can live and get lost in urban canyons? Not really. But you can carve out a very urban lifestyle in some parts of Los Angeles. Westwood, Hollywood, Miracle Mile, West Hollywood, Melrose, and the center of some of its satellite cities offer urban oasis-es amongst one of the most sprawling metros in the world. There are no examples in Oklahoma City that come close to it, even if you adjusted for scale. Even in its sprawl most of its commercial areas are right up against the street with little space committed to surface parking.

So, I agree with you. In some ways, LA can serve as a model in how to carve out urban centers within an inherently sprawling community. The sprawl will never stop here just as you are not going to undo it in LA. But you can, just like LA, take some areas and create urban destinations. However, this will take the unified effort of a district and the enforcement of guidelines through design review will be necessary. Basically, once an area decides it wants to be urban, it needs to do what it can to make sure all new development is urban in design and function, and that it compliments the unique identity that district is trying to preserve and/or cultivate. IMO, that is all the bricktown design review committee is trying to do when they ask for more birck and less EIFS. However, I am sure if someone came forward with a design that didn't use brick in its design because it wanted to use other quality elements to achieve a specific effect, they would probably go with it. However, to date, it seems most designs that are trying to get away with less brick are doing so only for a short term cost compromise and not because they want to use other material to achieve some grander vision.

Here are some population densities of cities in the LA metropolitan area:

Maywood: 28000 per sq mi
West Hollywood: 18000 per sq mi
Bell Gardens: 17000 per sq mi
Lawndale: 16000
Lynwood: 14000
Hawthorne: 13800
Santa Ana: 13120
Alhambra: 11200
Santa Monica: 10,500
Long Beach: 9800

There are actually many, many more but I think my point is clear. For comparison, Philadelphia has a density of 11200 per sq mi.

Most densely populated zip code in OKC? 73102, with 5200 people per square mile. Again, these figures above are for entire cities (all with populations over 25,000 and some with hundreds of thousands).

Who was saying LA isn't "urban?"

The majority of these dense places in L.A. are "ghettos" of one sort or another...overcrowded apartments, etc.--at least 8 of them I would consider "undesirable"...

LA is urban Spartan.

http://www.greenpacks.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/downtown-los-angeles-from-above.jpg

Eh, LA is LA... here I'll show you a much smaller but otherwise comparable version of it:

http://okc.gov/about/_MG_8596.jpg

Didn't realize we had so many LA enthusiasts on here, aside from lasomeday. I guess I have my buttons and cities I tend to defend, as well..all cities that I have a lot more experience in than LA. Since I never claimed to be anything other than just someone with an opinion of the urban disaster that is LA, I guess I can continue being shameless in redrunner's opinion by suggesting perhaps the LA defenders on here are more familiar with the city than I am. I can say that with near certainty.

When someone first mentions LA I guess my first response is indignation and I guess that's inappropriate, and not very useful because as Mike said, LA does offer some valuable lessons for OKC. But I am still not going to be drinking the kool-aid on LA and there is nothing that can be said or done by LA or its apologists because I just don't like the city. I don't like the sprawl, I don't like most of the architecture, I don't like the culture (actually it's what I most despise personally), I don't like the freeways, and I don't like the pollution. I guess it's ironic for those who consider me a big Houston apologetic, but LA is the nation's 2nd largest city, Houston's the 4th largest. There is a difference between 11 million and 6 million in the metro. I would say the two cities are dead even for urban progress and sustainability, behind NY, Chi, and SF. So I'd call that good for Houston hitting above its weight and separating itself from Atlanta and Dallas. Whereas with LA, the nation's #2 city, in almost every good aspect it hits below its weight, which in perspective is disappointing.

http://news.usversusthem.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/SouthCentralFarm.jpg
Here's kind of an interesting urban greening project on the south side of LA. Kudos for this. Perhaps OKC could do something like this for its own south side. OKC could desperately use some urban greening almost as badly as LA.

http://esperanzacommunityhousing.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/407250281.jpg
Typical LA. At least there's people on the streets, and the bus service is workable.

http://www.cnsm.csulb.edu/departments/geology/people/bperry//GrantPhotos/SanGabMtns1Dec05/009LARiver710FreewayBellGardensBellDec05L.jpg
Bell Gardens..one of the super dense neighborhoods semisimple listed.

http://www.cnsm.csulb.edu/departments/geology/people/bperry/GrantPhotos/CatalinaFeb06/047SARiverHBCastaMesaFValleySantaAnaFeb06S.jpg
Santa Ana..another one of the neighborhoods semisimple listed.

http://pics4.city-data.com/cpicc/cfiles14119.jpg
Lawndale..another one of the neighborhoods semisimple listed.

I do like Santa Monica though. West Hollywood is kinda cool and quirky. I'm not aware of any other districts that semisimple listed that I would consider respectable in many ways. I like the Bank District and Beverly.

Eh, LA is LA... here I'll show you a much smaller but otherwise comparable version of it:

http://okc.gov/about/_MG_8596.jpg

Didn't realize we had so many LA enthusiasts on here, aside from lasomeday. I guess I have my buttons and cities I tend to defend, as well..all cities that I have a lot more experience in than LA. Since I never claimed to be anything other than just someone with an opinion of the urban disaster that is LA, I guess I can continue being shameless in redrunner's opinion by suggesting perhaps the LA defenders on here are more familiar with the city than I am. I can say that with near certainty.

When someone first mentions LA I guess my first response is indignation and I guess that's inappropriate, and not very useful because as Mike said, LA does offer some valuable lessons for OKC. But I am still not going to be drinking the kool-aid on LA and there is nothing that can be said or done by LA or its apologists because I just don't like the city. I don't like the sprawl, I don't like most of the architecture, I don't like the culture (actually it's what I most despise personally), I don't like the freeways, and I don't like the pollution. I guess it's ironic for those who consider me a big Houston apologetic, but LA is the nation's 2nd largest city, Houston's the 4th largest. There is a difference between 11 million and 6 million in the metro. I would say the two cities are dead even for urban progress and sustainability, behind NY, Chi, and SF. So I'd call that good for Houston hitting above its weight and separating itself from Atlanta and Dallas. Whereas with LA, the nation's #2 city, in almost every good aspect it hits below its weight, which in perspective is disappointing.

http://news.usversusthem.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/SouthCentralFarm.jpg
Here's kind of an interesting urban greening project on the south side of LA. Kudos for this. Perhaps OKC could do something like this for its own south side. OKC could desperately use some urban greening almost as badly as LA.

http://esperanzacommunityhousing.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/407250281.jpg
Typical LA. At least there's people on the streets, and the bus service is workable.

http://www.cnsm.csulb.edu/departments/geology/people/bperry//GrantPhotos/SanGabMtns1Dec05/009LARiver710FreewayBellGardensBellDec05L.jpg
Bell Gardens..one of the super dense neighborhoods semisimple listed.

http://www.cnsm.csulb.edu/departments/geology/people/bperry/GrantPhotos/CatalinaFeb06/047SARiverHBCastaMesaFValleySantaAnaFeb06S.jpg
Santa Ana..another one of the neighborhoods semisimple listed.

http://pics4.city-data.com/cpicc/cfiles14119.jpg
Lawndale..another one of the neighborhoods semisimple listed.

I do like Santa Monica though. West Hollywood is kinda cool and quirky. I'm not aware of any other districts that semisimple listed that I would consider respectable in many ways. I like the Bank District and Beverly.

I lived in Brentwood for many years...West Hollywood is nice--IF you are gay...

While all these opinions about LA, what's urban, what's not, etc., are certainly interesting to read, it crosses my mind that it might be good to start a new thread the proposed Bricktown Hotels, maybe called, "New Bricktown Hotels (the project only, please)," for people who mainly want to know about the project and how it develops. Just a thought.

While all these opinions about LA, what's urban, what's not, etc., are certainly interesting to read, it crosses my mind that it might be good to start a new thread the proposed Bricktown Hotels, maybe called, "New Bricktown Hotels (the project only, please)," for people who mainly want to know about the project and how it develops. Just a thought.

Mea Culpa

I lived in Brentwood for many years...West Hollywood is nice--IF you are gay...

Ouch. So what LA district do straight people have the right to live in? I'm guessing Brentwood is no longer safe either.

I agree with Doug that we should move on, hopefully redrunner and semisimple are satisfied with the LA tangent. Maybe Pete can separate the the LA discussion and give it its own thread title like, "Built environment similarities between OKC and LA."

But I am still not going to be drinking the kool-aid on LA and there is nothing that can be said or done by LA or its apologists because I just don't like the city.

Believe me, I am not an LA "apologist" by any stretch of the imagination and if by not drinking the kool-aid you mean remaining willfully ignorant about LA's urbansim, than so be it. The rest of your post is meaningless. We are talking about how urban LA is compared to OKC, not what your opinion of LA is relative to other cities.

BTW, two can play the photo tour game. Here are some more representative pictures of the LA area:

http://www.photopilot.com/blog/media/blogs/photo/downtown1.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4130/5147451107_43a75b6d9c_z.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5247/5277516188_8c20c7ebf5_b.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5164/5277538638_97857a9fea_b.jpg

LA's mass transit:

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/2620/img5911k.jpg

http://www.metro-magazine.com/images/news/L-A-Metro-subway-full-2.jpg

Meanwhile, here are some pictures of OKC's urban core and neighborhoods which are supposedly comparable to LA:

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/2590/31789116.jpg

http://www.freespiritballoons.com/Images/Downtown.jpg

The super-urban neighborhoods near downtown OKC (below, Heritage Hills):

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/9619/penthouseviewheritagehillsze1.jpg

Deep Deuce--Oklahoma's interpretation of "urban living"

http://image1.apartmentguide.com/imgr/4cc8b38220354563dddbb336deedd5cb/550-367

Lower Bricktown--so urban; a great spot for people watching

http://okchomesellers.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/2751866629_71170f2721.png

Ouch. So what LA district do straight people have the right to live in? I'm guessing Brentwood is no longer safe either.

I agree with Doug that we should move on, hopefully redrunner and semisimple are satisfied with the LA tangent. Maybe Pete can separate the the LA discussion and give it its own thread title like, "Built environment similarities between OKC and LA."

As a final remark--to your question...W. Hollywood is gay-gay. Just a fact of life. A descriptor--nothing else.

Moving on

This is some thread.

We should start a yearly award for the best forum thread, this one is getting close to the Crossroads Mall zombie discussion.

Where is Thunder and his opinion about Bricktown, new hotels, and urban standards?

This is absolutely ludicrous.. semisimple keeps making these terrible posts picking one statement of mine that he wants to take on, and then following it with these declarations in every single post that "the rest of your post is meaningless." Semisimple, you have absolutely lost any shred of credibility on this forum for good. Go to some non-OKC board if you want to cherry-pick the absolute worst photos of OKC and make that pass for an argument, because I'm calling your bull****.

And Lower Bricktown, seriously? Ok semiThunder..whatever you say. OKC sucks. LA is like Paris or Rome or something. LA stands for La-La Land. I will say that some of those captions under the terrible photos you cherry-picked are offensive to people trying to improve OKC and make a difference. You know where you can go with that act...

I assure you those pics are not representative of the LA area. The photos that I posted are more representative because I just went with the list of neighborhoods that you gave us earlier, and just went with the best pic I could find on google images of those neighborhoods. You showed downtown and W. Hollywood and that's it. That's like trying to tell someone that Sheridan Ave in Bricktown is what all of OKC is like. Or in your case, trying to make a photo of LB pass for Bricktown or a photo of parking that's tucked away from site pass for Deep Deuce.

How often do you actually come to OKC? Just curious..

This is some thread.

We should start a yearly award for the best forum thread, this one is getting close to the Crossroads Mall zombie discussion.

Where is Thunder and his opinion about Bricktown, new hotels, and urban standards?
Yes, and here is the kicker: there are some people on this board who want so badly to have a voice heard in what they would like to see done in this community. And you've got one of the developers of this hotel project not just reading this thread, but even responding from time to time. Congrats folks.

[deep breath..]

Anyway, so does anyone involved in this project have any idea what is going to be the closest outcome of this project?

http://www.catfishbilly.com/images/brick-glass-metal.jpg
Modern, utilizes a decent amount of brick in the facade, but branches out to mix in some other materials.

http://photonet0.hotpads.com/search/listingPhoto/ThreeWide/DAARMN-156297/0000_1143671569_medium.jpg
All-brick hotel that matches the more traditional style of Bricktown.

http://aff.bstatic.com/images/hotel/org/132/1329243.jpg
A generic-looking hotel with the chain's brand image that conforms to an urban site plan and incorporates less brick.

On a side note, if anything can be deduced from these three examples, if looking for non-brick building materials to mix it up with the brick, all building materials are not created equal. EIFS has virtually zero tactile value, whereas glass or metallic finishes have a nice sheen that would have a more complimentary effect than EIFS or even real stucco. Keep in mind I'm not saying that real stucco has zero tactile value, just EIFS, but I don't think it's a good combo for a brick warehouse-themed entertainment district.

As Randy Newman would say, "I love L.A." I'd still be there today if I could afford it. It's an endless source of fascination and, yes, occasionally, frustration.

But it's never boring. And I suspect that a healthy number of our would-be urbanists are projecting their own boredom onto inanimate objects like EIFS.

[deep breath..]

Anyway, so does anyone involved in this project have any idea what is going to be the closest outcome of this project?

http://www.catfishbilly.com/images/brick-glass-metal.jpg
Modern, utilizes a decent amount of brick in the facade, but branches out to mix in some other materials.

http://photonet0.hotpads.com/search/listingPhoto/ThreeWide/DAARMN-156297/0000_1143671569_medium.jpg
All-brick hotel that matches the more traditional style of Bricktown.

http://aff.bstatic.com/images/hotel/org/132/1329243.jpg
A generic-looking hotel with the chain's brand image that conforms to an urban site plan and incorporates less brick.

On a side note, if anything can be deduced from these three examples, if looking for non-brick building materials to mix it up with the brick, all building materials are not created equal. EIFS has virtually zero tactile value, whereas glass or metallic finishes have a nice sheen that would have a more complimentary effect than EIFS or even real stucco. Keep in mind I'm not saying that real stucco has zero tactile value, just EIFS, but I don't think it's a good combo for a brick warehouse-themed entertainment district.

Personally, I would love to see a play on old and new. What I mean by that is not to try to re-create the period architecture that exisits in the bricktown area. That said there is nothing wrong with a nod to that and a desire for the hotel to be contextually appropriate, however, I do not want the designers to feel hamstrung to simply a monotone brick facade. I would love to have a developer and designer to embrace what the material of brick can do and let it show in the details of the building and the quality with which it is crafted. The buildings that make up bricktown have existed for a great many years and the district that is emerging there should be treated as such. It is not going anywhere and will mature and develop to become a signature part of the urban downtown fabric as the city continues to grow and expand.

There are a great many ways that brick can be articulated with texture size and color. I would love to see a mix of materials and let the architecture be appropriate to the site and context while projecting the type of image that the operator wants to be known by. Oklahoma City is becoming a great city and is drawing national attention, I would hope that the developer will consider that what he does here will not only will impact patrons and visitors to the area, but will be a lasting tribute to his values and the mark he is leaving on the city. This may seem altruistic (I will admit that it is) however, it is true. I fully realize that all projects come down to the business case that makes it viable, however I am looking for greatness and remember the type of buildings that were built becuase the developers and builders had such pride that they knew that what they built defined them...it was not just a commision or a deal...it was the deal! Those great buildings were standing business cards of the designers, developers & contractors commitment to quality and improving the city in which they worked. As our city is emerging and growing I hope more will take notice of companies such as Devon who have gone to great lengths to be great corporate citizens and recognize that there is a tremendous value in earning the goodwill of the citizens where you choose to do your business. I will step off of my soap box now...promise (For now). I am not sure I am a fan of any of the images here just yet. The second image is a mixed use building with condos on the top. Which I would love to see in Bricktown. I would love to see the Ground floor or two emphasze true architectural integrity and be articulated with tactile materials that emphasize mass. Ashlar limestone with well crafted details around doors and windows and at the corners. From there the building materials could change to masonry to blend in with the area. This suggestion of materials by no means is meant to dictate style rather it could range from very modern to a contrast between fairly clasic with very well crafted and modern touches.

I will be interested to see what comes from the review by the design committee, I would agree that EIFS should never be applied in areas where a human will have regular contact with it. It is fine if used as an accent material in areas that are far from human contact but its application and quantity needs to be limited to prevent the apperance of a building that was all about cost savings and lacks character and permanance. It has been my experience that EIFS is like cancer. once it makes its way into a project it tends to grow when the budget gets tight and it always tends to get tighter and so it grows and soon there are accents of other materials and the whole thing is an EIFS nightmare. I would love to hear some of the design intentions from the developer and what thier goals and objectives are with the designs, and what the concepts have been as articulated by the Architect.

Personally, I would love to see a play on old and new. What I mean by that is not to try to re-create the period architecture that exisits in the bricktown area. That said there is nothing wrong with a nod to that and a desire for the hotel to be contextually appropriate, however, I do not want the designers to feel hamstrung to simply a monotone brick facade. I would love to have a developer and designer to embrace what the material of brick can do and let it show in the details of the building and the quality with which it is crafted. The buildings that make up bricktown have existed for a great many years and the district that is emerging there should be treated as such. It is not going anywhere and will mature and develop to become a signature part of the urban downtown fabric as the city continues to grow and expand.

There are a great many ways that brick can be articulated with texture size and color. I would love to see a mix of materials and let the architecture be appropriate to the site and context while projecting the type of image that the operator wants to be known by. Oklahoma City is becoming a great city and is drawing national attention, I would hope that the developer will consider that what he does here will not only will impact patrons and visitors to the area, but will be a lasting tribute to his values and the mark he is leaving on the city. This may seem altruistic (I will admit that it is) however, it is true. I fully realize that all projects come down to the business case that makes it viable, however I am looking for greatness and remember the type of buildings that were built becuase the developers and builders had such pride that they knew that what they built defined them...it was not just a commision or a deal...it was the deal! Those great buildings were standing business cards of the designers, developers & contractors commitment to quality and improving the city in which they worked. As our city is emerging and growing I hope more will take notice of companies such as Devon who have gone to great lengths to be great corporate citizens and recognize that there is a tremendous value in earning the goodwill of the citizens where you choose to do your business. I will step off of my soap box now...promise (For now). I am not sure I am a fan of any of the images here just yet. The second image is a mixed use building with condos on the top. Which I would love to see in Bricktown. I would love to see the Ground floor or two emphasze true architectural integrity and be articulated with tactile materials that emphasize mass. Ashlar limestone with well crafted details around doors and windows and at the corners. From there the building materials could change to masonry to blend in with the area. This suggestion of materials by no means is meant to dictate style rather it could range from very modern to a contrast between fairly clasic with very well crafted and modern touches.

I will be interested to see what comes from the review by the design committee, I would agree that EIFS should never be applied in areas where a human will have regular contact with it. It is fine if used as an accent material in areas that are far from human contact but its application and quantity needs to be limited to prevent the apperance of a building that was all about cost savings and lacks character and permanance. It has been my experience that EIFS is like cancer. once it makes its way into a project it tends to grow when the budget gets tight and it always tends to get tighter and so it grows and soon there are accents of other materials and the whole thing is an EIFS nightmare. I would love to hear some of the design intentions from the developer and what thier goals and objectives are with the designs, and what the concepts have been as articulated by the Architect.

@heart, what would you say of an edgier design that forgoes the ornamentation around windows and edges? As opposed to the more traditional style you suggested with accent materials around windows and leaves the masonry for the bulk of the edifice.

What you say about EIFS being an explosive cancerous tumor in projects and buildings standing the test of time as a businessman's legacy is dead true. Look at Bill Skirvin, one of the city's iconic historic figures, for no other reason than his hotel. I think we are all unanimously proud of putting city resources into saving that man's hotel. The Skirvin is the best, most iconic hotel in OKC.

I think there are intrinsic benefits to going all in on design, and they do relate to your bottom line if someone is looking at the total resale value of a property after its developed. The chain may not care as long as it just gets its logo in the district on a property that is acceptable and occupancy rates are decent. I seriously doubt that Homewood Suites' standards are going to be a problem to be met in Bricktown, and this is great because I hope it will give the developer a great amount of flexibility in the property he is able to develop.

I will point directly to the Aloft Hotel being built at 2nd and Walnut in Deep Deuce. Richard McKowns, who's developing LEVEL across the street, told me that Aloft was a big factor for him. The design of the hotel caught his attention and made him act.
McKowns envisions a great deal of interaction between the two projects, because they will both be top-notch developments. Jim Thompson, who's building the Aloft, will benefit from his investment in top-notch design when LEVEL is finished before the Aloft and everything else in the neighborhood has been brought up because of Thompson's dedication to quality design. I can unequivocally say that LEVEL probably wouldn't have happened, or wouldn't have been as good a project, if McKowns was not intrigued by what his neighbor did.

So what does this have to do with Bricktown and J. Pitman? This is important: This hotel is on the edge of Bricktown, across the street to the east becomes no man's land. It's not a situation similar to the Hampton further up the block which has The Mantel directly across the street. If J. Pitman develops the EIFS hotel it will be a successful project, and he probably won't net $7M like he did from the Hampton, but probably around $4-5M. It will have decent occupancy and there may end up being some small-scale residential or fast food developed nearby or a Steel Yards project. If he invests in real brick and quality design, including a more functional street level that interacts with pedestrians, Pitman will net more than he did from the Hampton. The hotel will be more valuable because it will be a higher-quality visitor experience, and from the perspective of the locals, it WILL be a catalyst for similar development further east within a stone's throw. The quality of what gets built around it will be significantly higher, and then the hotel's location at Sheridan and Central becomes an asset in its own. People staying at the hotel could feel like they're on the edge of Bricktown and have to walk 4 blocks to get anywhere, or they could be in the middle of Bricktown which would grow around something like this:

http://www.catfishbilly.com/images/brick-glass-metal.jpg

And I do think that there is business sense in doing that. Bricktown will react to quality. The Hampton Inn was a high-quality project and the project was a huge success, and I somewhat suspect that Pitman's super willingness to work with design critics comes from the fact that those design critics improved his last development when they imposed limitations on the EIFS. It isn't just that a higher quality hotel would be able to charge higher rents and would have higher occupancy, because with the chains signed on for this project, you can only go so high, and that's the reality. But there could be other revenue streams to be realized. There could be opportunities in the way of housing or even street-level retail, and these are things that improve the value of the finished development. A key here is that those things are independent of the chains and can fluctuate in value, for instance a room in a Homewood Suites can only go between $75-150 a night. But the housing and retail spaces are independent and can go for whatever the developer decides is the target demographic. I wouldn't go too upscale, but with apartments similar in size to McKowns', I think that could be an extremely valuable revenue stream.

Furthermore, while the room rates aren't very flexible (or so I assume), the occupancy rates are. The difference between and EIFS hotel surrounded by blah (option A) and a top-notch hotel surrounded by other examples of top-notch design (option B) is huge in terms of occupancy. Option A probably fluctuates, matching the Residence Inn, and comes in a little below the Hampton Inn..probably average of 60-70% occupancy which is respectable. Option B, where the surrounding area grows up around the hotel which serves as a catalyst for a higher standard, probably nets 80-90% if not higher, and probably completely booked every weekend. The Residence Inn is a bad hotel project, but it benefits from being in Bricktown (unofficially) because the district has enforced a standard across the street that promotes a quality environment. The Hampton Inn is a part of Bricktown in a way that the Residence Inn is NOT, and that includes being a part of the design standards. This hotel can be a Residence Inn or Hampton Inn. It can extend Bricktown around it or it can establish the boundary of Bricktown. It all depends on the design, and how legitimately the Bricktown location is really valued.

Excellent points Spartan. If designed properly, this hotel could spur an extension of Bricktown along Sheridan all the way to Lincoln. Imagine coming from the east, entering bricktown by the new fire station and going all the way through to Classen. You would pass by The Cox Convention Center, Renaissance, Sheraton, Colcord, Devon Energy Center, Stage Center and a revitalized film row in addition to Bricktown!

J. Pitman...Please be advised that Spartan is just a kid playing Legos with Oklahoma City in his head.

Spartan, I have nothing against a more edgy design. I in fact love to see well-crafted and well massed hotels that are appropriate to the area. The Aloft Hotel I am very pleased with. My suggestion of details at the corners of the buildings was not intended to connote classic design articulation (although when writing I figured that it might easily be construed as my intent) but rather I was trying to call attention to the need for well-crafted detailing (vastly different than ornamentation). It is the attention to detail and massing that gives a building a sense of permanence and solidarity that is partially psychological in nature and comes from the old way of building that stated that if it was dense and big it would bear weight. As the building grew upward the materials got lighter and leaner, out of both a necessity of constraints on building techniques and material limitations. That order is comforting and resonates well with humans in modern times on a subconscious level. It can be done with Steel, concrete, masonry etc, but those materials need to be substantial enough to pass the touch test. Visually it must look substantial, and when touched or pounded on by human hands it needs to feel as solid as possible; avoiding loud and hollow sounds that cause questions as to its quality and permanence.

I agree that the location of this proposed hotel has the potential to establish precedence and will clearly define the context in which future projects will become a part. Well-designed projects absolutely can cause other developers to take note and act in kind as you described above. That case outlined is not singular or unique, every developer is seeking success for their own projects and there is a synergy that is gained by sharing space and becoming neighbors to notable significant designs. The Developers and designers who do begin to act on the available properties adjacent to the hotel will without a doubt at least have to consider the projects fit with its neighbor.

The project absolutely needs to treat the street at pedestrian level kindly, would love to see some types of projections, such as awnings or canopies that provide shade/protection from inclement weather, adequate sidewalks that encourage not only walking but meandering, (benches well done lighting and trees etc...) The hotel will be missing the mark on understanding its urban role if it does not have street level retail. (this doesn't necessarily mean for lease) rather it could have a restaurant with street access and a cafe' or coffee shop with the same so you are not only catering to your overnight patrons but making your services accessible to the emerging neighborhood, and those on the street.

It would be very cool if the developer recognized the value and opportunity in extending the hotel and adding rental units, this would meet a need that has not been addressed for the Bricktown area. They could even add some for sale at the top couple of penthouse level. Loads of possibilities and I am hopeful that this developer is one that sees that the investment in quality pays dividends sometimes far greater than the initial ROI.

In summary of my thoughts on the macro level, we want this project to be of a quality and substance that it further adds to the momentum and elevates the standard rather than indicates a reduction in expectations and can inadvertantly open the door to more poorly designed projects that feel comfortable in a more generic context that begins to take hold of this area that is ripe for fantastic developments.

Spartan, I have nothing against a more edgy design. I in fact love to see well-crafted and well massed hotels that are appropriate to the area. The Aloft Hotel I am very pleased with. My suggestion of details at the corners of the buildings was not intended to connote classic design articulation (although when writing I figured that it might easily be construed as my intent) but rather I was trying to call attention to the need for well-crafted detailing (vastly different than ornamentation). It is the attention to detail and massing that gives a building a sense of permanence and solidarity that is partially psychological in nature and comes from the old way of building that stated that if it was dense and big it would bear weight. As the building grew upward the materials got lighter and leaner, out of both a necessity of constraints on building techniques and material limitations. That order is comforting and resonates well with humans in modern times on a subconscious level. It can be done with Steel, concrete, masonry etc, but those materials need to be substantial enough to pass the touch test. Visually it must look substantial, and when touched or pounded on by human hands it needs to feel as solid as possible; avoiding loud and hollow sounds that cause questions as to its quality and permanence.

I agree that the location of this proposed hotel has the potential to establish precedence and will clearly define the context in which future projects will become a part. Well-designed projects absolutely can cause other developers to take note and act in kind as you described above. That case outlined is not singular or unique, every developer is seeking success for their own projects and there is a synergy that is gained by sharing space and becoming neighbors to notable significant designs. The Developers and designers who do begin to act on the available properties adjacent to the hotel will without a doubt at least have to consider the projects fit with its neighbor.

The project absolutely needs to treat the street at pedestrian level kindly, would love to see some types of projections, such as awnings or canopies that provide shade/protection from inclement weather, adequate sidewalks that encourage not only walking but meandering, (benches well done lighting and trees etc...) The hotel will be missing the mark on understanding its urban role if it does not have street level retail. (this doesn't necessarily mean for lease) rather it could have a restaurant with street access and a cafe' or coffee shop with the same so you are not only catering to your overnight patrons but making your services accessible to the emerging neighborhood, and those on the street.

It would be very cool if the developer recognized the value and opportunity in extending the hotel and adding rental units, this would meet a need that has not been addressed for the Bricktown area. They could even add some for sale at the top couple of penthouse level. Loads of possibilities and I am hopeful that this developer is one that sees that the investment in quality pays dividends sometimes far greater than the initial ROI.

Basically, someone who's a little more qualified than Gary Cotton should reattempt the concept of the Cotton Exchange, except replace the office space with hotel rooms. Doesn't have to be on the canal. Sheridan Ave certainly qualifies as a vital corridor and a key activity node for Bricktown. The Cotton Exchange project obviously failed due to the economic outlook we are still in right this second, yet it was a concept that others thought was promising. There were a number of prominent Bricktown people behind the scenes offering Cotton advice (that he did not take) because they saw the promise in the project. I don't know where Pitman was in all that, and what he thinks or knows about Cotton, but I am certain none of this paragraph is new to him.

I just think if one ponders the project long enough to the point of holding their own charette in their head, if you're looking at the demand for various things in Bricktown, it becomes fairly obvious you need to mix building uses to absolutely develop the best product possible. It's more expensive but the payoff is greater because of the strong demand in Bricktown for these things, such as housing, and hotel rooms. Rooftops create demand for other things, and can especially be a boon toward supporting retail tenants on the street directly below. I don't think you have as much flexibility with the design, either, if you develop a building for one proposed use.


Excellent points Spartan. If designed properly, this hotel could spur an extension of Bricktown along Sheridan all the way to Lincoln. Imagine coming from the east, entering bricktown by the new fire station and going all the way through to Classen. You would pass by The Cox Convention Center, Renaissance, Sheraton, Colcord, Devon Energy Center, Stage Center and a revitalized film row in addition to Bricktown!

Wow. That is a vision. I miss being able to utilize Sheridan. By the way, drove by the fire station today, and I was relatively surprised..it looked pretty decent. The masonry work looks very high-quality. There is going to be a very impressive 2-mile corridor, especially if development on the east end is held to a high standard.


J. Pitman...Please be advised that Spartan is just a kid playing Legos with Oklahoma City in his head.

No doubt. Isn't that what we all are? :-p (I don't know about "kid" though..I did learn my lesson though about admitting who you really are..like 5 years ago)

When I suggested Sheridan as "The Must See Street in OKC" I seem to recall a lot of people thinking I was crazy.

When I suggested Sheridan as "The Must See Street in OKC" I seem to recall a lot of people thinking I was crazy.

Well throughout the years on here and other sites, we've had a lot of discussions about what a great street Sheridan is, so I wouldn't hold one statement against anyone on here. Is Sheridan the best in OKC? I don't know, that just depends on how much someone likes Walker or Broadway.. you know how much I like Broadway (a LOT).

Would anyone like to talk about New Bricktown Hotels?

Would anyone like to talk about New Bricktown Hotels?

Yes. I wish their were more like Richard McKown and Jim Thompson investing, developing, building - and working together - in Bricktown.

Personally, I think any hotels Downtown should have a classic historic look. I also think it would be nice
to have some local/indie owners. A example would be this : http://ihhotel.com/


Chris
www.radiookc.com

Just taking what we have as givens so far (and understanding that he proposed hotels rendering is very preliminary), and placing the hotels where I understand they would be located and using my modest graphic skills, and knowing that perspectives and proportions are not entirely correct, here is what I come up with:

"AS IS" -- the graphic we have so far next to the Hampton Inn
Click on image for larger view

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/bricktown/newhotels1_800.jpg (http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/bricktown/newhotels1.jpg)

MODIFICATION TO LOWER & UPPER BRICK COLORS BUT ELEVATOR SHAFT AREA AS IS - I'm not fond of the blond brick, and don't think that it is appropriate for Bricktown, and have darkened the lower 2 levels to attempt to match the lower levels of the Hampton Inn for some element of cohesiveness
Click on image for larger view

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/bricktown/newhotels1b_800.jpg (http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/bricktown/newhotels1b.jpg)

MODIFICATION AS ABOVE BUT WITH DIVIDING ELEVATOR AREA MODIFIED TO USE STUCCO - SLATE ROCK WOULD BE ANOTHER ALTERNATIVE
Click on image for larger view

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/bricktown/newhotels1a_800.jpg (http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/bricktown/newhotels1a.jpg)

MODIFICATION AS ABOVE BUT WITH DIVIDING ELEVATOR AREA BEING GLASS
Click on image for larger view

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/bricktown/newhotels1c_800.jpg (http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/bricktown/newhotels1a.jpg)

Doubtless others can and will do this much better than I have and these are just me wanting to play around with the images a little. I really do like the "wall" which will be created with the existing hotel and the new ones side by side.

The low dark blue area separating the buildings, if you didn't pick up on it, is the back fence or wall (or whatever it is called) of the Bricktown Ballpark.

I don't think that they need to have the same facade systems for the upper 2 floors. That would create a very bizarre ribbon on the skyline that might make it look like a big cohesive building, which would be ugly.

Thanks Doug for the graphics

I personally prefer the multi-colored brick as it differentiates it from the Hampton (and doesn't make it look like one giant, 3 branded hotel). As long as it is brick, think it can fit in (it isn't called RedBricktown)...LOL

If not mistaken, a glass tower was originally proposed for the Hampton but was nixed by the design committee and both the committee and the developer have said that the tower on the new building will be brick (or in the case of the developer, maybe stone). But looking at the Hampton pic, I am not even seeing an elevator tower? Either it being brick disguised it that well or it isn't seen from that vantage point.

I'm not sure what the objection is to a glass tower as long as the rest of the building is brick (but lose the EIFS cap completely)

Just a perception point and I do stress the word perception, but certain brand names lend themselves to certain architectural forms/standards. I associate the Hilton name more along the lines of a Skirvin rather than a Hampton or Holiday Inn. I realize this is a "Garden Inn" and the style for it may be different than one without that designation. Am sure there are going to be posts that follow that show very plain Hiltons and elaborate Holiday Inns.

Along the percetion viewpoint, not sure about mixing a extended stay hotel with an upper tier brand. Generally associate extended stay to be on the lower end of the spectrum. Not saying that Bricktown doesn't need different hotels w/different price points, just that putting 2 brands that seem to be on opposite ends in the same building, is, odd.

By the way, the Hampton Inn on NW Expressway got a recent facelift and looks much better than the plain-jane box they had before.

Hilton "Garden Inns" are not upper end. They'd equate more to a Marriott Courtyard. So it's like comparing a Courtyard to a regular Marriott.

I don't think that they need to have the same facade systems for the upper 2 floors. That would create a very bizarre ribbon on the skyline that might make it look like a big cohesive building, which would be ugly.

I do agree with this and I too don't care to see the top two floors as eifs, especially with the two hotels sitting side by side. If the hotels were further apart this wouldn't be an issue, but being so close to one another, this is a problem.

If eifs for the top two floors is the only way this project gets built, I would ask for the glass elevator and that the eifs be a different color and not match the Hampton Inn next door.

When can we expect to see the developers revised proposal for this project?

If the main reason for having the cap is to break up the monotony of the brick, then I don't think it's necessary. Personally, when I look at the Hampton Inn I think it would have looked so much better in all brick.

If it's for cost reasons, then that's understandable. However, I wonder if a big part of having the top two floors eifs is so people can see the moniker from distance.

I am pretty sure that the top two floors is more about breaking up the massing of the building, than it is making the sign stand out. There is a historical precedent behind breaking up and treating bottom and upper floors differently. I too think that the new hotel needs to have its own design flavor or it will aesthetically hurt both projects. That is not what the developer will want to do. The two as has been eluded here will seem too much like an institution, with the masses of the buildings and basic form seeming too related as to be independent.

It's not an individual problem with the EIFS on the top floors, which I actually don't have a big problem with. I'd rather it not be so, but it is understandable, certainly. The problem is just the unwanted ribbon effect, seeing the two strips of EIFS staggered beside each other taking up most of an entire block. I just think the overall effect would be unseemly.

It's like having a bright green building with a mural of an Iguana on the front of it. It could be kinda cool, and add some color to the city. But please, not next door to an orange and red Chuck E. Cheese.

Did I read the new project is a couple of stories taller than the existing Hampton Inn project ?
If so, won't that tend to minimize a ribbon effect?

So after this project is complete how many total hotels and rooms will we have in downtown/bricktown?

Just as a follow up to that question. How many hotels/rooms does a city need to qualify for an NBA All Star weekend? They could really use a streetcar line going to meridian ave to collect all the patrons from those local hotel/motels.

I believe I've heard that a city needs 30,000 hotel rooms to host an All Star game. The most recent information I found, which was from 2009, said we have 15,000.

I don't think we will have one hotel of the stature to host something like the NBA All Star weekend until we have the major convention hotel. We need something with a grander common area. Hampton Inn's, and Hilton Gardens don't do it. InterContinental, Four Seasons, or a major Hyatt might.

Well I assume that there will be a Grand Hotel built as we get further along towards the convention center. OKC really needs a couple of mid-rise 25-35 story hotels downtown. That might be what's planned for the old car lot site. Heard some rumors about that awhile back but nothing concrete.

sorry to return to the 'ramblings of Sparty' as someone had said, but I think everybody missed his point. He wasn't talking about if LA wasn't densely populated (which almost everybody ended up posting 'facts' to show LA's residential population density - which almost everybody alive and knowledgeable/traveled to LA knows already), Sparty was talking about LA's urban form or lack thereof.

Sure, LA has residential density but it is not urban - it is suburban even in the 'urbanized' zone. Tracks and tracks of suburban housing with driveways/yards/pools, segmented and aligned, but still suburban nevertheless. Compare that to rowhouses/brownstones, multi-level housing BLOCKS, or HighRise Towers of almost ALL of Chicago and most of New York. Which is more urban? LA or Chicago/NY?

Fly into LA and Chicago at night, and tell me which is more impressive. ....

Even the 'suburban' part of the city of Chicago (with single family homes), is still more urban than the LA counterpart, because sidewalks exist and nothing is built on strips but rather with a neighbourhood centre focus (which is why chicago is known as a city of 'hoods). Im not saying LA doesn't have urban hoods - like Hollywood and some successful suburbs, but LA isn't on the same level as Chicago and never will be. L

A is built form in the same level as OKC, and that was Sparty's point. And to that end, LA could be a model that OKC could aspire in some ways - since we may never have true Chicago/NY/Vancouver style urban scale.

Ok, back to Bricktown Hotel topic.

Chicago and the other strong city centers have hugely important cores of business which attracts activity. Chicago was established when car transportation was not widespread and people lived close to where they worked. And businesses located close to other businesses they used. Strong financial and other professional services marked strong city centers. LA, on the other hand, developed in a time of independent car travel and being close was not necessary. LA has pockets of industries throughout the area and they don't have to be close to each other. The studios don't need to be close to the banks downtown LA. The aerospace doesn't need to be close to downtown. Land is cheap and cars were too. OKC is much closer to the LA model, for sure.

(Just when I thought we were getting back to the topic of the Bricktown hotels, now it's LA vs Chicago vs Okc.)

Meanwhile, I did drive down Sheridan this morning and specifically drove by the Hampton Inn and the proposed new hotel site.

Here's my opinion;

First, tearing down the buildings that are currently sitting at the proposed hotel location would be a day one improvement. Second the Hampton Inn is the nicest looking hotel recently built in or around this area, speaking of the exterior / street view. (I'm including the Courtyard, Residence Inn, and the Renaissance.) If the newly proposed hotel comes even close to the Hampton Inn for exterior looks and curb appeal it will be a huge win for Bricktown and downtown Okc. I'm of the opinion, that if the developers want to build it nearly exactly as their Hampton Inn (EIFS included or not, red brick, tan brick, etc.) nobody should oppose them. This developer has a proven track record and I am confident that the quality will be there again with this project.

Again, when can we expect to see the developers revised proposal for this project and the next design review?

You can expect to see the revised proposal when they feel they're ready to present it. There's a possibility that financing won't come through and this could be it. They have no deadline for turning it in. The presentation last week was basically a courtesy call - a preliminary presentation intended to draw early criticism, confirmation for design concepts so that they could move forward.

Could they build this exact hotel in the area known as Lower Bricktown (or on the Fred Hall property) without making any modifications to the current design?

Did I read the new project is a couple of stories taller than the existing Hampton Inn project ?
If so, won't that tend to minimize a ribbon effect?

I concur.

You can expect to see the revised proposal when they feel they're ready to present it. There's a possibility that financing won't come through and this could be it. They have no deadline for turning it in. The presentation last week was basically a courtesy call - a preliminary presentation intended to draw early criticism, confirmation for design concepts so that they could move forward.

That's a good idea actually. Leave the color scheme the same, and build it in Lower Bricktown, next to Toby Keiths.

As far as color is concerned, if the hotel is built next to Hampton Inn, why not use dark colored red bricks on the bottom floor, and used brick on the top floors. Or just a lighter speckled red brick on the tops floors...then the EIFS on the top. That way the building would get lighter in color as you go higher up. That would differentiate it from the Hampton Inn.

That would differentiate it from the Hampton Inn.

But the stated desire is that everything in RedBricktown look the same.

I don't know who has stated everything in Bricktown should look the same. The most I've said is that I think things in Bricktown should complement each other. There are painted brick buildings in Bricktown and they look just fine. I don't think we need everything to be the same color of brick. You can, however, create differences using darker brick by using old brick, changing the size or color of trim of windows, changing in what design the brick is laid, etc. So, I think you can have a red brick building next to another and not have it look monolithic. The Duluth hotel posted here is a wonderful example of a contemporary building that is all red brick and would blend well with older buildings or something like the Hampton Inn, without creating a sense of too much sameness.

You can expect to see the revised proposal when they feel they're ready to present it. There's a possibility that financing won't come through and this could be it. They have no deadline for turning it in. The presentation last week was basically a courtesy call - a preliminary presentation intended to draw early criticism, confirmation for design concepts so that they could move forward.

I'd like to meet the bank executive that would not grant Pitman a loan to build a hotel after his last one was so extremely successful.

As for this hotel being taller and thus eliminating the ribbon effect: What I called it was a staggered ribbon effect, and I just tend to think that'll make it look even more awkward.

I also agree with betts. Not every building has to look the same. It's just important that we stick to styles that compliment each other, and maintain the dominant style of Bricktown--refurbished brick warehouses.

I really think we are going to start to see financing loosen up soon.

Banks HAVE to loan money in order to make any and many have received a lot government funding and are expected to put that money to work out in the communities. Of course they are all a bit gun-shy but that's mainly because most of them were so completely capricious in the past -- and mainly with residential homes and condos.

More and more hotels, shopping centers and office buildings seem to getting funding approvals. It may take one more year but there is no doubt things are turning around.

If there is one hotel I've always wanted to see in Bricktown, it's Embassy Suties. Although the Reniassance is somewhat similar. But Embassy Suites is my favorite hotel chain. Would definitley stay a few weekends a year and spend the night out downtown.

I'd like to meet the bank executive that would not grant Pitman a loan to build a hotel after his last one was so extremely successful

There are lots of development companies that have successful PROJECTS but are losing their shirts as companies. Their ability to get financing involves lots of other factors, including provable revenue and cost projections. Hotels are not slam dunks and many banks have taken severe write-downs on many. Bankers are gun-shy. It wasn't always bank ineptness as people like to glibly blame. Any hotel in an area that is basically deemed entertainment area is under great scrutiny. Entertainment district occupancy traditionally varies greatly when economic conditions change.

There are lots of development companies that have successful PROJECTS but are losing their shirts as companies. Their ability to get financing involves lots of other factors, including provable revenue and cost projections. Hotels are not slam dunks and many banks have taken severe write-downs on many. Bankers are gun-shy. It wasn't always bank ineptness as people like to glibly blame. Any hotel in an area that is basically deemed entertainment area is under great scrutiny. Entertainment district occupancy traditionally varies greatly when economic conditions change.

Yes, this is the official line. Which relates to Pitman and Bricktown how..?