That would certainly be fine with me. I don't think everything has to be red brick, but we've got more than enough EIFS in lower Bricktown, and I think we need to hold upper bricktown to higher standards.

Disagree. It's BRICKtown. Every building should be brick.

Disagree. It's BRICKtown. Every building should be brick.

See - it is the name of the district that is causing the problem.

Why should we drop the brick requirement? Bricktown is not a recreation of something with false fronts and false materials.

Sure it is. The requirement is to make new building look like they have been there since 1900. That is the definition of fake.

I'm hoping some developer will propose a tall office/hotel/condo tower instead of these cookie-cutter designs.

I'm hoping some developer will propose a tall office/hotel/condo tower instead of these cookie-cutter designs.

Does it have to be brick?

This looks terrible. They torn down a bldg for this?

this is just a drawing, conceptual design...I am pretty sure the finished product will look good...nonetheless, its a great addition to Bricktown....

“We don't want to get too far along on design without knowing what would be acceptable to the community,” he said.

Maybe it's just me being cynical this morning--and I'm almost never the cynical type--but combined with the design art attached to the article, the quote above sounds like they're trying to get away with doing the minimum possible (i.e., a generic, cheaply-made suburban hotel design that adds a few components to the design to meet minumum requirements).

I hope that's not the case. I don't even think it needs to be brick--just not the stucco/bland colors every hotel along the interstate has. Maybe I'll come back in a few hours and I'll have left the silly cynicism bubble.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/newsok-photos/1343354/medium.jpg

The properties owned by Pitman are shown in blue but I wonder if this won't extend all the way to the Hampton Inn? Looks like a pretty big footprint:

http://www.tnttri.com/OKCTalk/pitmanhilton2.jpg

I agree with you pete it looks like from that image with the window spacing that it would all the way to the Hampton ...

That will make that side of the street very dense and full

It says conceptual designs, so the hotel/s could change dramatically.

Let's hope so. Currently this looks like a hospital, and not a very hospitable one at that. With the layout being very similar to the Hampton Inn, let's hope that there is some significant differentiation in the facade. ALL brick would be better.

I agree with you pete it looks like from that image with the window spacing that it would all the way to the Hampton ...

That will make that side of the street very dense and full

Which is the true definition of urban; not brick, stucco, or EIFS.

Just for reference, this is the hotel in Austin they mentioned as similar in concept:

http://media.expedia.com/hotels/2000000/1460000/1453600/1453501/1453501_78_b.jpg

Guys, this was a starting point for design only - a starting concept. It's going to change...

Guys, this was a starting point for design only - a starting concept. It's going to change...

Yeah but for better or worse is the question, hence their debate.

Guys, this was a starting point for design only - a starting concept. It's going to change...

I'm curious about the process. I realize that what little design they have now will change, but what exactly are they bringing before the committee today, then? How can the Design Review Committee make any judgment on something that isn't really a design? Are they just looking for direction or are they just trying to see what they can and can't get away with?

See - it is the name of the district that is causing the problem.

Change the name then. But don't advertise as Bricktown when all of the buildings aren't brick.

IMO every building in Bricktown should be 100% brick. Just like buildings at OU or OSU are designed to fit their surroundings, the same should be done in Bricktown.

EIFStown? Changing the name is a ridiculous concept. It is what it is. Because these buildings were warehouses, they don't have a lot of kitschy period details. So contemporary design blends as well as anything. I don't think we need new buildings to look like they are the same period as the originals. But, again, it is a signature district for OKC and we need to keep our standards high. While I would prefer to see red brick, I'd be OK with any brick over EIFS or stucco. There's very little attractive about lower Bricktown and the last thing I want is for their design standards to creep over to East Bricktown.

And I agree. If this is a starting concept only, why go to the Bricktown Urban Design Committee now? If you know your design is going to blend well and be acceptable to the committee without question, you bring the design when it's ready. If you're trying to get away with the bare minimum, and you're trying to figure out what the bare minimum is, then you start sending out feelers early, IMO.

Change the name then. But don't advertise as Bricktown when all of the buildings aren't brick.

Agreed - I am all for a name change. However, the name was derived from the brick streets, not the brick buildings. If was named after the buildings it would have been called Dilapidatedtown.

If you're trying to get away with the bare minimum, and you're trying to figure out what the bare minimum is, then you start sending out feelers early, IMO.

I can assure that is not the case. This was an informal meeting with the Bricktown Design committee to get their input on the design. Why go through 3 rounds of design meetings over 6 months when we can be upfront with our design, get feedback from the committee and then incorporate their ideas?

Another reason for the meeting was that this building is going to need a variance to go up 11 stories, which isn't going to be a problem.

The design committee was very accepting of the overall design, but did have some concerns that will be addressed moving forward. The room mix, number of rooms, and tight site all play a part in the overall design.

Some of you may not like the design of the Hampton Inn and that's fine, but occupancy rate and guest feedback has been incredible, and that's what is most important, the customer and their experience.

J. Pitman can you comment on the siding for the proposed structure as it will be presented to the committee?

Specifically, how many floors of brick versus EIFS/stucco?

I like the Hampton Inn better than the Centennial. At least it's simple and mostly red brick. Although the customer and their experience are important, the customer is usually from out of town. I live three blocks away from Sheridan and Central, and Bricktown is essentially my "neighborhood". So, while I have no control over what is built there, like anyone who lives near a potential construction site, I have a decided opinion about what I would like to see built near my home. I think the exterior, to Oklahoma Cityans, is as important as the interior and the guest experience. I'm certainly fine with 11 stories, but would like to see something built that looks urban and compatible with Bricktown, and to me, we're talking brick. Especially since, if it's 11 stories tall, it's going to be prominent on the skyline. Yellow EIFS is not something that says "urban" and enduring.

J. Pitman can you comment on the siding for the proposed structure as it will be presented to the committee?

Specifically, how many floors of brick versus EIFS/stucco?

The current preliminary design has 9 floors of brick and 2 of EIFS, just as with the Hampton Inn. The feedback from the design committee was positive towards the use of EIFS. The elevator tower will most likely end of being brick or some type of stone.

Thanks so much for that information and that's good news.

I actually think a floor or two of EIFS at the top (ala the Hampton Inn) looks sharp and provides some contrast and detail.


Also, will this property extend all the way to the Hampton Inn?

I like the Hampton Inn better than the Centennial. At least it's simple and mostly red brick. Although the customer and their experience are important, the customer is usually from out of town. I live three blocks away from Sheridan and Central, and Bricktown is essentially my "neighborhood". So, while I have no control over what is built there, like anyone who lives near a potential construction site, I have a decided opinion about what I would like to see built near my home. I think the exterior, to Oklahoma Cityans, is as important as the interior and the guest experience. I'm certainly fine with 11 stories, but would like to see something built that looks urban and compatible with Bricktown, and to me, we're talking brick. Especially since, if it's 11 stories tall, it's going to be prominent on the skyline. Yellow EIFS is not something that says "urban" and enduring.

Please elaborate on urban and compatible with Bricktown. What you see is two contrasting shades of brick. This is in response to the new design guidelines. The design guidelines are are actually looking to further differentiate new projects from the rest of Bricktown. Don't be surprised if the next design you see is more contemporary/urban, as that is what the city is looking for in Bricktown.

Again, the tight site and number of rooms are dictating the overall design.

This is one of 4 or 5 hybrid hotel projects in the whole country.

Thanks so much for that information and that's good news.

I actually think a floor or two of EIFS at the top (ala the Hampton Inn) looks sharp and provides some contrast and detail.


Also, will this property extend all the way to the Hampton Inn?

If you look at the picture you will see, to the west, a gap above the first floor. There will be a significant "break" between the Hampton Inn and the Homewood/Garden, at least above the 1st floor.

The design committee is in agreement with you about the EIFS. They like the cap look.

Yeah people it's great to be critical but I don't know what set everyone off saying this is a "Suburban" design... The site isn't big enough to do a suburban design even if they wanted to. The Residence Inn is a suburban design (pitched roof, parking lot). Further, it is the same people that did the Hampton Inn which is performing excellently and has been a great addition to Bricktown, and has the same brick-to-EIFS ratio as this new hotel. I think the building will easily pass design review- the only question is whether they will allow tan brick instead of red.

Some variation in color is a good idea IMO, especially in a structure this size and so close to an existing monolith of red brick (Hampton Inn).


As we've seen with Nonna's, another great idea is to blend glass and steel with brick for a more contemporary look while still tying in with the area. Chesapeake is doing this on their campus and it helps to break up the monotony of all that brick.

If you look at the picture you will see, to the west, a gap above the first floor. There will be a significant "break" between the Hampton Inn and the Homewood/Garden, at least above the 1st floor.

The design committee is in agreement with you about the EIFS. They like the cap look.

thanks for the response and the update .. this looks like a great project and i can't wait to see you break ground.


just to clarify the building will go all the way to the hampton in on the ground floor which i assume is meeting space?

Yeah people it's great to be critical but I don't know what set everyone off saying this is a "Suburban" design... The site isn't big enough to do a suburban design even if they wanted to.

Thank you.

The one here in Austin is not "suburban" at all. It is decently tall and meshes well with the busy area. It has an underground parking garage and a sports bar and a Starbucks on street level. If what we have in Austin gets built in Bricktown, I think it will be a good addition to the area.

I came home at lunchtime to let my dogs out and so I looked the area over. Looking at the plans, I wonder if the first floor entrance is a renovation of existing buildings. If so, that would be an excellent way to tie the building in to Bricktown. I agree, Pete, that some variation in color is a good idea. I particularly like the contrast of red and yellow brick at the Brownstones. All I cared about was that the majority of the structure be brick and that it's close to the street. It sounds as if that will be the case and so I think it will be a great addition to the area.

It's good to have this information. From what I'm reading now, it seems like a good project that should really push Sheridan along.

My main worry was that it was going to be cheap and suburban in its appearance. Based on what Pitman has said on here and what others have said, that concern was unfounded.

Any idea when it will be able to break ground, assuming all goes well with the design review?

Should break ground this spring if everything goes as planned.

Agreed - I am all for a name change. However, the name was derived from the brick streets, not the brick buildings. If was named after the buildings it would have been called Dilapidatedtown.

Long, long ago...this area was known as Bricktown by the residents of OKC....

thanks for the response and the update .. this looks like a great project and i can't wait to see you break ground.


just to clarify the building will go all the way to the hampton in on the ground floor which i assume is meeting space?

There will be a 10-20 ft. gap between the Hampton Inn and the Homewood/Garden. There will be a covered walkway, and the meeting room will be shared amongst the 3 hotels.

If built as planned it should help build up the street wall along Sheridan. Still hoping for one day there being urban apartments or brownstones lining Sheridan east of Stiles in place of the old warehouses. And maybe someday some of the parking lots near the intersection of Oklahoma & Sheridan.

The current preliminary design has 9 floors of brick and 2 of EIFS, just as with the Hampton Inn. The feedback from the design committee was positive towards the use of EIFS. The elevator tower will most likely end of being brick or some type of stone.

That actually sounds very interesting. Very relieved to hear that it will be real brick and not some kind of brick hue EIFS.

J. Pitman, thanks for your information in this thread. Is there anything you can tell us about the ground level? I am curious how it will interact with the street level along Sheridan and how comparable it will be to the Hampton Inn--which I think has pros and cons in its street level, but certainly acceptable. I am more confident that this project will be too.

If they referenced the Courtyard in Austin as the direction they want to go, that's great news. That's a very urban hotel; wouldn't be out of place in Manhattan.

There will be a 10-20 ft. gap between the Hampton Inn and the Homewood/Garden. There will be a covered walkway, and the meeting room will be shared amongst the 3 hotels.

thanks for the quick response ... that sounds great

Yeah people it's great to be critical but I don't know what set everyone off saying this is a "Suburban" design... The site isn't big enough to do a suburban design even if they wanted to. The Residence Inn is a suburban design (pitched roof, parking lot). Further, it is the same people that did the Hampton Inn which is performing excellently and has been a great addition to Bricktown, and has the same brick-to-EIFS ratio as this new hotel. I think the building will easily pass design review- the only question is whether they will allow tan brick instead of red.

The references to "Suburban" design were based on the drawing shown and, with it being out of context and fairly generic, that is a fair assessment. I'm keeping an open mind about the project since it's in the intitial stages. Hopefully we'll all agree at some point that it has a positive impact on the area as well as being a successful business.

I think something like this with brick where the non-glass elements are located would look great with perhaps a little different roof treatment.
687

The current preliminary design has 9 floors of brick and 2 of EIFS, just as with the Hampton Inn. The feedback from the design committee was positive towards the use of EIFS. The elevator tower will most likely end of being brick or some type of stone.

Hmmm....conflicting info??

Developers told design changes needed for proposed Bricktown hotels (Oklahoman, 1/20/11)


Developers hoping to build an 11-story dual brand hotel in Bricktown were advised Wednesday significant design changes will be needed to gain approval from the Bricktown Urban Design Committee.
...
Committee members took issue with the amount of Exterior Insulation and Finish Systems (a synthetic stucco commonly known as EIFS), the color of the tower's brick, and a design criticized as not fitting in with Bricktown's historic warehouse theme.
...
Bright also remarked the overall design looks like a hotel that “could be built on Northwest Expressway.”
“You could just plop this on Northwest Expressway and that would be that,” Bright said. “But this isn't Northwest Expressway — it's Bricktown.”

complete story here
http://www.newsok.com/developers-told-design-changes-needed-for-proposed-bricktown-hotels/article/3533859?custom_click=pod_headline_business#

NM. Posted the same story as Larry.

Since we have been criticized for being negative before having all the facts, I will simply state that this sentence in the initial story was what alarmed me.

"Pitman said some of the Bricktown Urban Design guidelines, including those addressing street frontage and use of stucco materials, have changed since the committee reviewed and approved the Hampton Inn a few years ago."

Knowing there was a tussle over how much EIFS they could use on the Hampton Inn, I assumed that the committee guidelines had relaxed to allow more EIFS, and pehaps were requiring less street frontage. If not, why was this fact important enough for Mr. Pitman to comment on it in this story? Looking at the second story, perhaps there was reason for concern. Regardless, the important thing is the outcome, and what is eventually built. I don't wish anything but success for businesses in Bricktown, and I suspect I can speak for others when I say we appreciate developers' additions to Bricktown. I don't think we need a "Disneyland" of new structures that absolutely mimic the old, but rather that blend with existing structures.

Hmmm....conflicting info??



Not really. I stated that the committee took issue with the amount of EIFS proposed. They like the EIFS cap but not necessarily the EIFS elevator tower.

This is exactly why we went in front of them yesterday, to hash those issues out.

Can anyone guess why only two private strucutures have been built in Bricktown and prime lots still sit vacant after almost 20 years?

Can anyone guess why only two private strucutures have been built in Bricktown and prime lots still sit vacant after almost 20 years?

Because they're trying to do it right?

Because they're trying to do it right?

But what good is that if nothing ever gets done? With the addition of new focal points about to come on-line (Deep Duece, Midtown, Parkland, etc) Bricktown is going to fool around and lose its monopoly on 'the place to be' downtown. That is okay by me but it won't be good for Bricktown. They are going to 'design standard' themselves right out of business.

I have a friend at SAIC in Alexandria VA and across the street is a Hampton/Homewood...I have stayed there several times and they are great places...regardless of any exterior issues....

Kerry, we will have to agree to disagree. There is plenty of room up on Memorial and on NW Expressway to build cookie cutter EIFS chain hmotels. They can be built on Reno on the other side of Lincoln or west of downtown where there aren't any design standards. I don't think the insistence on a significant amount of brick has kept development from occurring. And, to be honest with you, I'd rather have Bricktown stay as it is than settle for a swath of those.

Can anyone guess why only two private strucutures have been built in Bricktown and prime lots still sit vacant after almost 20 years?

It doesn't help when the whole process takes a long time and often seems to be adversarial. When developers see it to be more profitable and easier to get things done in other areas and cities then they go do that. We can either figure out the great compromises and encourage good development or we can take 50 years to get something done.

Deep Deuce is complimentary to Bricktown, not competitive. And there's a finite amount of room in Deep Deuce and Maywood. Not to mention the fact that the convention center will be far closer to Bricktown regardless of where it is placed than any of those other locations, as are the Arena and every other downtown attraction. I don't think anyone in Midtown would be excited about that kind of development either, to be honest with you. It would completely ruin the flavor of the area. It sounds as if Mr. Pitman is going to make every effort to satisfy the design committee, which means that, to him, being in Bricktown is worth a little extra brick. He still made a nice profit on the Hampton Inn when he sold it, despite having to add all that extra brick.

But what good is that if nothing ever gets done? With the addition of new focal points about to come on-line (Deep Duece, Midtown, Parkland, etc) Bricktown is going to fool around and lose its monopoly on 'the place to be' downtown. That is okay by me but it won't be good for Bricktown. They are going to 'design standard' themselves right out of business.

It's a good point, but the developers can make some changes so the structure will fit the long term interests of the area. Compromise is important here. If the developers were unwilling to compromise then Bricktown would be better off with no development. When the economy picks up there will be plenty of developers ready to meet higher standards.

Kerry, we will have to agree to disagree. There is plenty of room up on Memorial and on NW Expressway to build cookie cutter EIFS chain hmotels. They can be built on Reno on the other side of Lincoln or west of downtown where there aren't any design standards. I don't think the insistence on a significant amount of brick has kept development from occurring. And, to be honest with you, I'd rather have Bricktown stay as it is than settle for a swath of those.

Becareful what you wish for.

It's a good point, but the developers can make some changes so the structure will fit the long term interests of the area. Compromise is important here. If the developers were unwilling to compromise then Bricktown would be better off with no development. When the economy picks up there will be plenty of developers ready to meet higher standards.

20 years - 2 new structures - prime lots still vacant.

I'd be interested to hear from someone who isn't just speculating (as I am) whether it was the Bricktown Urban Design Committee that was responsible for the failure to start of all the proposed projects we've heard about, or whether it was something else, like the economy, difficulty obtaining funding, etc. I would think Steve might have some idea. The two that we know were required to make some changes (Hampton Inn, McDonalds) were built anyway. Have there been projects rejected by the Committee that were scuttled for that reason?

I'd be interested to hear from someone who isn't just speculating (as I am) whether it was the Bricktown Urban Design Committee that was responsible for the failure to start of all the proposed projects we've heard about, or whether it was something else, like the economy, difficulty obtaining funding, etc. I would think Steve might have some idea. The two that we know were required to make some changes (Hampton Inn, McDonalds) were built anyway. Have there been projects rejected by the Committee that were scuttled for that reason?

That would be interesting to know but keep in mind - the design standards lead to higher cost which might not be detected outside the "funding" catagory. What we also don't know are projects that could have gone to Bricktown but weren't even tried (Aloft, Level ?).

BTW - I forgot about McDonalds. 3 new structures in 20 years.

Perhaps Richard McKown would tell us whether he would have preferred Bricktown over Maywood and if so, why he didn't built there. I would certainly be interested in his opinion. Again, I consider Deep Deuce and Maywood to be complimentary to Bricktown so what goes up there is good for Bricktown too. But, Maywood suits that sort of contemporary design, while it would look out of place in Bricktown, IMO.

And again, do you seriously want a big "stucco" Days Inn fronting the canal? Is that really great development for Bricktown?

And again, do you seriously want a big "stucco" Days Inn fronting the canal? Is that really great development for Bricktown?

You mean as opposed to the grassy lot on the canal corner? I'll take the Days Inn over grass. Heck, I supported 4 abandoned buldings on McGee over flower beds so I would have no problem with Days Inn over grass. That was an easy one. People are not beating down the door to build in Bricktown and as more option become available downtown even fewer people will be doing so. Bricktown has probably gone as far as it can go with the current design standards, and it didn't even go very far.

They are going to 'design standard' themselves right out of business.

I think if they get desperate and relax the standards they will become irrelevant faster than if no new development occurs. Its success has a lot to do with its image and if they compromise that, they will lose the biggest asset they have. The reality is that it can survive on what it has right now for a long time. It would actually be better, from a marketability standpoint, if it stayed small with no new development and retained its appeal through its character rather than junk it up with cookie cutter projects. And there is actually plenty of space in and around downtown to do that if developers don't like the community involvement in its projects.

Continuing to allow projects like the residence inn would've eroded its whole reason of being. It's not worth visiting if it is like every other place in the city and the only way to ensure that it stays unique is if they enforce and maintain some design standards. I definitely think it would be better were bricktown to die of its own merits rather than kill it with cheap compromise after cheap compromise just for the sake of infill. At least the former gives it a chance to be something special that attracts quality projects in the future, even if it takes waiting a little longer for the right developers to come along that actually believe in the area instead of just wanting to milk the area for a few years then flip for a profit that was generated largely on the savings created by the substandard design quality and materials used to build it.