I would think you would build the bridge so you don't limit your options in the future. As more things get built in Deep Deuce I think there will be more momentum to have another connection, in this case a bridge similar to the Walnut bridge, into Bricktown. Especially if Oklahoma ends up being the first at-grade intersection of the new boulevard from the east.

We are still a long way out from having any metro wide rail routes and that may not even be used in the earlier routes. Depending on how much surface & utility work is needed a road would cost a few hundred thousand to a several hundred thousand dollars for two blocks, a bridge that size is at least 10 million; this spent where in the short term may not have any train traffic under it until it needs repairs which could slow momentum as that money could have be put to encouraging developers to the area, plus a bridge tends to be less 'walkable' as far as peoples preferences vs being on the ground. It would not be hard to convert it to a bridge later it the rail volume becomes high enough if would be a hardship to crossing and the area keeps building densely since the money could then be funded by the downtown TIF district.

I would think you would build the bridge so you don't limit your options in the future. As more things get built in Deep Deuce I think there will be more momentum to have another connection, in this case a bridge similar to the Walnut bridge, into Bricktown. Especially if Oklahoma ends up being the first at-grade intersection of the new boulevard from the east.

I think something east of that would be the first one?

Didn't the proposal have HSR going through Edmond, so at most it could be used by the regional rail system, in which case a bridge may not be necessary depending on number of routes and frequency to NE OKC and areas east of OKC.

nope the HSR will go from OKC to tulsa .. not through edmond

It's real simple, HSR is a long way away if it ever comes. However, that is indeed the corridor and no it HSR is not proposed to go through Edmond.

That corridor is important in the very near term as to provide potential commuter rail service to the NE side, special event trans to the Adventure District, and direct connection to Tinker AFB.

The trestle structure itself, while not all that aesthetically pleasing, is structurally sound and could theoretically be used with little improvement thus tying these lines to the NE and E to Santa Fe Station and the N/S rail corridor.

Regarding the pedestrian intersection at Oklahoma, it would probably be a normal grade crossing only for pedestrians. A street type crossing would require, signals, bells, and potentially having teh train blow its horn. So, my guess is taht residents would probably only want a pedestrian crossing.

Regarding HSR and how it affects this- HSR often uses standard commuter tracks and interacts with other trains when it is in the city. It is only when its leaves the city zone that many of them go into a grade separated and isolated track. There are extreme examples in new systems, but more than likely any HSR in OKC would interact and share local track until emerging outside of the city. At least this is how it is often done in Europe.

So the Deep Deuce Oklahoma Ave crossing is likely to not be all that unusual in any circumstance. The only unusual infrastructure might potential be a stop for the Tinker line or Adventure line thus enabling a dedicated connection for Tinker Commuters and an easy way to get to Santa Fe Station from the area.

"Aesthetically pleasing" is subjective. I think OKC is seriously lacking in physical connections to our past, and that one is pretty cool. Landscaping around and some up-lighting or lighting on the trestle structure itself could change the visual impact for (almost literally) pocket change. I'd personally rather see it highlighted than hidden or demolished.

No doubt. think our city needs a little bit of "grit" to be a real urban environment. Certainly also after the major polishing Project 180 is giving downtown. It is subjective.

A new railroad bridge would probably be made out of concrete pylons.

Grody.

Since this crossing is so close to the station make the train stop instead of cars. The train could pull up to the crossing, stop, wait for traffic to stop, then proceed throught the interesection. A train in this area would be going pretty slow anyhow. Pay some retired guy $10 an hour to man the crossing.

Since this crossing is so close to the station make the train stop instead of cars. The train could pull up to the crossing, stop, wait for traffic to stop, then proceed throught the interesection. A train in this area would be going pretty slow anyhow. Pay some retired guy $10 an hour to man the crossing.

Seriously? This is a train, not a bus. Trains don't stop at individual streets to let cars pass by. That isn't how it works.

Seriously? This is a train, not a bus. Trains don't stop at individual streets to let cars pass by. That isn't how it works.

Not usually no, but we are talking about a street that is only a few hundred feet from where the train would stop anyhow and it would only be a few trains a day. Trains in the area would be going less than 10 mph anyhow.

I don't think that Oklahoma Ave. needs to be extended. There are so many discussions on here about how sad it is that this city is built for the automobile, but we still seem to want to create more paths for cars. I think that a pedestrian path would be nice. A street extension, whether surface or bridge, would detract from the walkable environment of both Deep Deuce and Bricktown.

I agree, Rod. Most the people that live in Deep Deuce are going to be walking into Bricktown anyway.

Also, regarding the train tracks and making trains stop for cars, there are several parts of the Metro rail system here in L.A. that do that, especially in the central city.

Not usually no, but we are talking about a street that is only a few hundred feet from where the train would stop anyhow and it would only be a few trains a day. Trains in the area would be going less than 10 mph anyhow.

The average freight train is 10,000,000 pounds. The energy used to start and stop multiple times to go a few feet would be great. Plus, it would prolong the blocking of auto traffic for several blocks for a much greater period of time. And freight trains aren't stopping at the station.

I have traveled extensively on passenger trains all over the world and throughout the northeast here in the US. I have NEVER ridden on a train that stops to allow cars to pass in front, let alone stopping multiple times within a few blocks.

This idea has 0% chance of ever being considered.

Rover - why are you taking about freight trains? This area would only be used for passenger rail to NE OKC. HSR would never have an at-grade crossing.

I don't think that Oklahoma Ave. needs to be extended. There are so many discussions on here about how sad it is that this city is built for the automobile, but we still seem to want to create more paths for cars. I think that a pedestrian path would be nice. A street extension, whether surface or bridge, would detract from the walkable environment of both Deep Deuce and Bricktown.

The more paths there are for cars the less congested the streets are and the safer the areas is for pedestrians and bicycles. Unsafe conditions arise when traffic is all funneled to one or two thru streets (see project 180).

Rover - why are you taking about freight trains? This area would only be used for passenger rail to NE OKC. HSR would never have an at-grade crossing.

HSR doesn't go high speed through cities and they use the same tracks.

So, if HSR never uses at grade crossings, why did you suggest they stop to let cars by?

HSR doesn't go high speed through cities and they use the same tracks.

So, if HSR never uses at grade crossings, why did you suggest they stop to let cars by?

I didn't, I suggested the commuter rail to NE OKC and maybe Tulsa stop there. HSR doesn't have at-grade crossings and in most urban areas HSR is elevated. The current tracks from OKC to Tulsa could never handle HSR; there are far to many at-grade crossing, turns, and small towns. But it was just a suggestion anyhow. I'll write you down as a 'nay'.

Oklahoma Ave can't go through anyway, there's a huge $5 to pay parking lot right there.

I didn't, I suggested the commuter rail to NE OKC and maybe Tulsa stop there. HSR doesn't have at-grade crossings and in most urban areas HSR is elevated. The current tracks from OKC to Tulsa could never handle HSR; there are far to many at-grade crossing, turns, and small towns. But it was just a suggestion anyhow. I'll write you down as a 'nay'.

Sorry if I was misunderstanding your suggestion.

I don't think that Oklahoma Ave. needs to be extended. There are so many discussions on here about how sad it is that this city is built for the automobile, but we still seem to want to create more paths for cars. I think that a pedestrian path would be nice. A street extension, whether surface or bridge, would detract from the walkable environment of both Deep Deuce and Bricktown.

Agree for the most part but this is a major disconnect between two main districts. A road would only be 2 lanes and could be built to have bike lanes and large sidewalks.

I think it would really speak volumes if Okc were to create a pedestrian / bicycle only connection between Bricktown and Deep Deuce.

It's really not such a huge disconnect. Everyone already uses the route for walking into Bricktown. I wouldn't mind a set of stairs, but otherwise it's fine. Or, we use the Walnut bridge. We'd have a lot more car traffic on Oklahoma if it were through, and I am happy not having it.

Roads don't create traffic. Congestion is created when cars have to funnel to a single road. After these two apartment complexes and hotel are finished getting into Bricktown on Walnut is going to require sitting through two light changes at Sheridan. A two-way street grid is the best way to make a safe pedistrian/bike area.

Sorry if I was misunderstanding your suggestion.

No problem - I didn't make the initial suggestion very clear anyhow so it was probably my fault. Besides, I don't think it is a good (or necessary) ideas now anyhow. There are already at-grade crossing at Stiles, Lincoln, NE1, NE4, NE6, NE7, NE8, NE9, MLK/JW Simmons, NE16, NE30, Grand, NE36, and Norcrest Dr - another one at Oklahoma won't hurt. Any true HSR line would have to be elevated across the entire state of Oklahoma anyhow, there are far too many section line roads and elevation changes to have it just run along the ground. At 200 mph it would cross a section line road every 18 seconds so there is no way they could just build bridges over each section line - people would be getting sick.

I don't think it's going to happen, regardless. I don't think the city will spend the money to build another Walnut Bridge, and those train tracks aren't going anywhere. That's the Adventure Line, and hopefully that will be operational again in the reasonably near future. I seriously doubt anyone living in Deep Deuce will be too excited about a bridge and road removing the pocket park, so the push for it will have to come from elsewhere. Joe Carter and Walnut access Bricktown, as do all the parallel streets. EK Gaylord, although not direct access, is how we always went towards Bricktown before we moved to Deep Deuce. The majority of the morning traffic goes down 4th and 2nd, coming off the Broadway Extension 6th St. exit. The only time Walnut is busy is after Thunder games.

It looks like the forms for the foundation for the west side of the complex are going in.

I was visiting Deep Deuce yesterday and it won't be long until NE 2nd becomes one of the coolest streets in Okc!

I am sure this has been asked before, so I apologize, but.... who owns the vacant lot east of Level?

I was visiting Deep Deuce yesterday and it won't be long until NE 2nd becomes one of the coolest streets in Okc!

^^Agreed,I have family in from Boston this week and I drove them around OKC to get a feel of the city and DD was one of the areas we went to and they said DD looked like an Awesome area!

I am sure this has been asked before, so I apologize, but.... who owns the vacant lot east of Level?


I believe that is all that is left of the church's parking. I seriously doubt they will let it go unless they move the church too.

I believe that is all that is left of the church's parking. I seriously doubt they will let it go unless they move the church too.

I think it would be a negative for Deep Deuce if the church was moved. It's one of the few remaining links to the roots of Deep Deuce and it greatly contributes to the diversity of the area.

I am sure this has been asked before, so I apologize, but.... who owns the vacant lot east of Level?

3rd and Walnut (SE corner) is owned by OCURA

Is the grocery store sill going to happen? Saw a banner today on the fence of NE3 and Walnut that said something to the effect of "Perfect location for a grocery!" Would have taken a picture but I was driving.

Is the grocery store sill going to happen? Saw a banner today on the fence of NE3 and Walnut that said something to the effect of "Perfect location for a grocery!" Would have taken a picture but I was driving.

That's been there for a while. Maybe they just never took it down...

3rd and Walnut (SE corner) is owned by OCURA

So the church doesn't own it? They are really going to be hurting for parking if it ever gets developed.

So the church doesn't own it? They are really going to be hurting for parking if it ever gets developed.

There is a lot of street parking in the area- Of the three restaurants east of Walnut, only Deep Deuce Grill has a small off-street parking lot. I think a lot of Deep Deuce residents park on the street as well, so it is possible that parts of 2nd Street will need to be designated "2 hour parking" during certain hours so that residents don't take up all the potential customer spaces.

I bet the church is hating the fact that they didn't pick up one of the many adjacnet empty lots around them when they could have bought it for pennies. Now they could end up with no parking lot.

I bet the church is hating the fact that they didn't pick up one of the many adjacnet empty lots around them when they could have bought it for pennies. Now they could end up with no parking lot.

The church historically did not have a parking lot- they still don't need one today, and if on-street parking resources are properly managed then they still won't need one when Deep Deuce is fully developed.

I bet the church is hating the fact that they didn't pick up one of the many adjacnet empty lots around them when they could have bought it for pennies. Now they could end up with no parking lot.

I thought Steve had mentioned LONG ago, that the church was actively seeking a new home? Due to the state of the building, and the lack of money to keep it well-maintained? Correct me if I'm wrong.

I thought Steve had mentioned LONG ago, that the church was actively seeking a new home? Due to the state of the building, and the lack of money to keep it well-maintained? Correct me if I'm wrong.
That is what I remember as well.

So if the church moves, what should happen there? Tear down the building for more condos/apts? Keep the building and put something really cool in there? Not sure what......

I would say to definitely keep that building. It is pretty awesome. I'd hate for the church to have to leave though... Maybe a parking garage with retail on the first level would work next to the church. No clue who would pay for that though...

Definately keep the exisitng structure. The building adds a great deal of character to the district and so we need to preserve what is there that can be repourposed.

So if the church moves, what should happen there? Tear down the building for more condos/apts? Keep the building and put something really cool in there? Not sure what......

Something like this maybe?

http://www.frontrangeliving.com/architecture/churchcondos.htm

There are a lot of old churches in Oklahoma city that I imagine could be awesome condo projects. Every time I drive by the city curch building on 10th and robinson it makes me wish I had $5M to buy and renovate.

http://www.precorruffin.com/City_Church_3pgaug.pdf

I drove by and took some video today of Level Urban. Check it out: http://youtu.be/9CWpgmLTfaE

Something like this maybe?

http://www.frontrangeliving.com/architecture/churchcondos.htm

There are a lot of old churches in Oklahoma city that I imagine could be awesome condo projects. Every time I drive by the city curch building on 10th and robinson it makes me wish I had $5M to buy and renovate.

http://www.precorruffin.com/City_Church_3pgaug.pdf

Wow, I never knew that building was for sale, I thought it was an active church. How long has it been empty?

Ever since I have lived there across the street, the church was for sale. The congregation and services are probably still there, it's just now it is listed.

Always very cool to have my apartment windows rattle when they would crank up the Hammond organ. You could always here the choir on the street.

What I was told by several of the members is it is simply the pastor wanting to "cash in." At the time, there were very few people actually from the neighborhood going to church there, so many of the congregation were somewhat ambivalent if indeed they could get the asking price.

I bet the church is hating the fact that they didn't pick up one of the many adjacnet empty lots around them when they could have bought it for pennies. Now they could end up with no parking lot.

I believe they own the large grassy lot to the East facing 2nd. It can be congested, but parking has not held them back. Also the OIC offers parking as their building is not in use on most Sundays. The parking concern, particularly in the Deep Deuce, is a fallacy that continues to create "the House of Bedlam" developments. People, get of you a** and walk. That's what people do in the Deep Deuce.

I think active churches in both Midtown and Deep Deuce would be better than converting them to residential. There are so many other opportunities for rehabilitations or new construction; having mixed uses is more than just retail, office, and housing.

The parking concern, particularly in the Deep Deuce, is a fallacy that continues to create "the House of Bedlam" developments. People, get of you a** and walk. That's what people do in the Deep Deuce.

This

Another thing about that church- Martin Luther King apparently applied there to become their minister. They turned him down because they thought "that he was too young," per a discussion with one of their members.

That didn't keep him from having the grand march across the Walnut Street bridge. One major reason that the effort by the historic preservationists were able to salvage the bridge and have it reconstructed when it was threatened with destruction. That area is steeped in history. The church building should remain. Already the cool art deco neon sign that used to be there is gone.

I apologize for going off topic, but does anybody else think that the City Church site would be an excellent location for the Bible museum that the Greens want to build? I know that they're looking for 300,000+ sq/ft, but I would think they could easily attain that by adding floors to the education wing and building onto the adjacent parking lot. Maybe this would get them to reconsider their preference for Dallas.

Probably not. If I remember right, their preference for Dallas was not because they couldn't find a building but because they want a high population of people to provide more exposure for the museum...

Wow, I never knew that building was for sale, I thought it was an active church. How long has it been empty?

The Building has been for sale since before I moved back to OKC six monthes ago, just two or three weeks ago they put a big sign out front that says they have moved to a location on NW expressway.

I may be wrong and/or biased and/or sacrilegious, but I think that people want to go to church near where they live, and I don't feel like alot of these churches serve the needs of the younger crowd living nearby (I don't know this for sure, its just a thought as too why these two buildings are up for sale). Obviously some of the churches in and around downtown are doing great, but I don't see the point in new churches moving in where old churches are vacating if there isn't a demand for them there. Life churcher's please don't take that as an invitation.

Now I'm going to go ahead and apologize for de-railing this thread, Level Urban Apartments Everyone!

^^ Frontline Church is currently in Automobile Alley, desperately outgrowing their space. They are moving to the City Church building at 10th and Robinson. They have a very mixed crowd including a lot of young people who are residents in the inner city.

I stand corrected.

Something like this maybe?

http://www.frontrangeliving.com/architecture/churchcondos.htm

There are a lot of old churches in Oklahoma city that I imagine could be awesome condo projects. Every time I drive by the city curch building on 10th and robinson it makes me wish I had $5M to buy and renovate.

http://www.precorruffin.com/City_Church_3pgaug.pdf

I'm thinking the old building would make a great House of Blues or Hard Rock Cafe.

I was in Columbus, Ohio this week and saw an old church that was skillfully turned into a great book store. I think the reverence of the old church and its history could be retained. Don't know if there will be a market for it there, but you would have to think think that it might have a chance with all the residences in the immediate area.

From today... They continue to kick some serious tail!

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/level92111.jpg

The slab at the southwest center is all that remains to be poured, and they're working on the footings. They start work really early every morning, and they work late in the day as well. They're not working at night anymore, however.