It seems like in NYC, Boston, Chicago, etc., the residents in the "urban" areas tend to use private clubs for working out, swimming, etc. and the , real coffee houses, clubs and restaurants for getting together and hanging out. The corner bakery becomes a gathering point in the morning, the street-side and sidewalk tables at restaurants the places to watch and greet each other, and the clubs to go partying at night. For families the little pocket parks are often safe havens for the them to sit and play a little, (also for the more matured). Adaptive uses of places like the High Line park in NYC are great. I just think (and even understanding the cultural differences) that the "urban" richness and lifestyle is not just sub-urban placed downtown. It is a lifestyle. It is that lifestyle that creates demand for the bakeries, local small restaurants, cool urban clubs, intimate little shops, etc. Sitting by the pool and drinking beers out of your cooler does little to add to the mosaic that should be urban living. If everyone who professes wanting the lifestyle and to be "cool" would actually act "cool", it would develop. Being urban isn't just cool names,body art and a low numbered address.

Just my observations, fwiw

Well, McKowns is building a corner grocery market on the street level. He is also designing this project to be as complimentary as possible to the Aloft across the street, even told me he sees the two as a wedding cake couple on top of hill. So in other words they'll function together. The Aloft will have a restaurant, a bar, and I believe a coffee shop. There is still that brownstone space overlooking the sculpture in Maywood Park that would be an amazingly good fit for a coffee shop. Commercial spaces in the Maywood Lofts still available, too. Sage, Deep Deuce Bar & Grill, The Wedge, and more are all just 1 block walking distance away. The Clark Bldg across from the lofts may end up being mixed-use as well depending on who the Waters' lease the bottom floor to.

I agree with the idea that the common areas, and possibly even the pool although I tend to think Boston/NYC/Chicago would be more pool-centric themselves if they were just warmer, will probably be a waste of space and an irrelevant amenity. But for 100k/unit and in the style he is committed to, they will be quality units and I don't think there will be many other wasteful spaces.

I wouldn't put it past him to realize that the amenities are a waste but you do need those in Oklahoma and it is important to not break as many local real estate laws as you can at once in one project. And I do think some young professionals will gravitate toward the complex based more on what they pay for and less on the urban concept. I realize people think differently than me, some don't think their residence through so much or grasp the urban living concept..they'll just see a cool apartment with good amenities making them think it's a good deal, and move in.

I really like the logo and the name.

Good luck tractionokc and keep us posted.

I think a pool is an excellent amenity. A lot of young people like to go to the pool and have a drink in the summer and this can really go a long way towards raising the profile of the place. If this area is looking to house the same demographics as uptown in Dallas then a pool can be a very nice amenity. Just my opinion...

I think I remember this, too. But even if it is going to be EIFS at least the first floor will be brick (according to the renderings). EIFS on the first floor of buildings is the worst!


EIFS on any floor is the worst, IMO. I would hope, hope, hope that I remember correctly on this one.

And I think a pool is just fine. This is Oklahoma, where in July, August and part of September it's too hot to do anything outside that not involved with water. Anything that fosters community is good, I believe.

That is about the level of a cost of a Marriott Courtyard per room. Given this includes retail spaces on one of the 4 floors, that seems low unless the apartments are small.
I am sure the retail space finish-out is not included in those cost projections. They should be in shell condition and the finish out costs considered part of lease negotiation because TI costs can vary greatly depending upon what the tenant wants.

I like the logo, although my brain keeps telling me I'm looking at it incorrectly. Maybe that's part of its appeal.

I noticed they've started putting up the construction debris fences and have taken down all the old signage on the block. I'm always amazed when construction appears to be starting as announced.

Are any more renderings available that are different than what has been previously posted?

Here are some bigger renderings from the architect's website.

The first two are southern exposure and the third is the north side:

http://www.ahmm.co.uk/resources/res.aspx?p=/FCF175F18A83EC9F832D303E3393C083C234259939195E30AB A0674515811726/THA2010_AHMM_MAYWOOD%20PARK_Corner%20view%20copy.j pg

http://www.ahmm.co.uk/resources/res.aspx?p=/FCF175F18A83EC9F832D303E3393C083C234259939195E30A2 50B1978A4EF8C1/THA2010_AHMM_MAYWOOD%20PARK_Retail%20View%20copy.j pg

http://www.ahmm.co.uk/resources/res.aspx?p=/FCF175F18A83EC9F832D303E3393C083C234259939195E306C 6A9A2607C42BA8/THA2010_AHMM_MAYWOOD%20PARK_East%20View%20copy.jpg

Found a couple of site plans and other renderings on the OKC Planning Commission website:

http://www.tnttri.com/OKCTalk/levelsite1.jpg

http://www.tnttri.com/OKCTalk/levelsite2.jpg

http://www.tnttri.com/OKCTalk/level1.jpg

http://www.tnttri.com/OKCTalk/level3.jpg

They should do back-in-angled parking for the street.

Looks pretty good to me. It will be interesting to see what type of cladding material they use. There are some townhomes in Tulsa that appear to be a stucco/EIFS that look decent. Maybe it's a higher quality EIFS product.
http://photos-13.idxco.com/26086aafcb12e0dc9e1777d6911281327e41034853

That could be real stucco. Find it hard to believe Brookside allowed EIFS construction when they throw a huge hissy fit at any potential dense residential development.

In the original proposal, the developers specified stucco & brick.

They have broken ground at Level. I am hearing the backing up beeping of the graders as we speak.

They have broken ground at Level. I am hearing the backing up beeping of the graders as we speak.

This place we be conceived, built, and lived in before the first shovel is turned at the Mercy site.

Betts is right, I drove by tonight and indeed ground was broken today

Looks pretty good to me. It will be interesting to see what type of cladding material they use. There are some townhomes in Tulsa that appear to be a stucco/EIFS that look decent. Maybe it's a higher quality EIFS product.
http://photos-13.idxco.com/26086aafcb12e0dc9e1777d6911281327e41034853

I see nothing attractive about that at all.

WHAT IS UP with the name?? Sounds like it should be on a bumper sticker on the back of Tom Ward's Mercedes, not a residential development. :ohno:

I like the logo though...


There are lots and lots of very similar apartment developments in LA, but they all have parking underneath. Why is that so hard for OKC developers to figure out?

WHAT IS UP with the name?? Sounds like it should be on a bumper sticker on the back of Tom Ward's Mercedes, not a residential development. :ohno:

I like the logo though...


There are lots and lots of very similar apartment developments in LA, but they all have parking underneath. Why is that so hard for OKC developers to figure out?

When we get LA land prices then we will get underground parking. I am just glad it had an interior garage and not a surface parking lot.

found out a few more things about this project last night at the urban neighbors event ...

it will be very nice ... the same black brick at classen curve on the first floor and then stucco on the rest 2,300 sqft for a grocery and a spot for a restraunt with 21 ft ceilings and outdoor seating on the south end. it will have angled parking all around and reserved retail spaces inside the parking garage.

a couple of notes on the apts ... granite countertops in the kitchen and bathrooms and they feel like it is a very effiecent design ...

the developer also said that he is already looking at locations for another downtown project after this one is completed

Underground garages are awfully expensive to build if the land costs don't justify the added expense. The expansive soils in Oklahoma make it an engineering exercise for anything below grade, the main reason why basements were abandoned a long time ago.

Is there that big of a difference in the soil between OKC and Dallas? I see a lot more underground residential parking there too.

found out a few more things about this project last night at the urban neighbors event ...

it will be very nice ... the same black brick at classen curve on the first floor and then stucco on the rest 2,300 sqft for a grocery and a spot for a restraunt with 21 ft ceilings and outdoor seating on the south end. it will have angled parking all around and reserved retail spaces inside the parking garage.

a couple of notes on the apts ... granite countertops in the kitchen and bathrooms and they feel like it is a very effiecent design ...

the developer also said that he is already looking at locations for another downtown project after this one is completed

When I got a chance to meet McKowns recently, and again at a council mtg, he struck me as not only very ambitious, but extremely on the ball. I am starting to wonder how he even got involved with Ideal Homes. He was a resident artist in St. Etienne, France..studied at the KC Art Institute, and so on. His background is in sculpture. He is very keen on building quality lifestyles and he seems extremely excited about his opportunity to do that with this development. I think he's looking to get more involved downtown, too. I guess he was just waiting for the right time, and boy did he find it. His development is going to be insanely successful, I can just feel it.

As for underground parking, I don't know enough about soils in Dallas, but I don't think there's anything that should discourage it in OKC. We do have some issues downtown with a really high water table, but most downtowns are located near rivers and such is often the case in that instance. Soils being conducive to underground this or that is going to vary from block to block based on elevation changes however. This site at 2nd and Walnut sort of sits on top of a hill that is steeper than a lot of us realize, so if anything, it should be much more conducive to underground parking than where The Lofts at Maywood Park currently sit. Those have underground parking, for those who didn't know where I was going with that..

The Aloft across the street will have dedicated surface parking in the back, but who cares? The Aloft will be urban, the parking will be behind the hotel, and it can be developed later. I think that was done just to make the project as economical as possible, always a good thing.

So what it boils down to is just that the parking situation isn't what it is in Dallas where underground parking is becoming common with downtown-area apartments. If anything, I would imagine their soils are even more expansive than ours..somewhat more oppressive climate, more sun, more heat, less frequent humidity, more frequent thunderstorms, more flash flooding. Dallas flash flooding is legendary, and you know it if you've ever been in Dallas during a gully washer.

Personally I'm a fan of the structured parking INSIDE the block. It's worked well for Legacy, it will work well for LEVEL. Hell, the surface parking inside the block even worked well for Somerset.

just an fyi the aloft will have a 2 story parking garage behind the property build into the hill so it will seem more like a 1story ..

Oh, I had no idea it was structured. In the first few articles I thought it said it would just be a simple surface lot? Not that it matters because I don't think it makes a big difference at this point.

spartan .. i put an update on that thread as well . the developers of both projects were at the Urban Neighbors meeting on thursday ..

1) Mckowns is Ideal Homes, meaning Gene Mckowns is his dad the founder of Ideal Homes. I know first hand that Ideal is making major changes in their building principals and I would expect many more of these type of projects in the immediate future.

2) Oklahoma City will contain a predominate amount of clay in the soil. Whereas Dallas has limestone as a foundation for it's soil.

1) Mckowns is Ideal Homes, meaning Gene Mckowns is his dad the founder of Ideal Homes. I know first hand that Ideal is making major changes in their building principals and I would expect many more of these type of projects in the immediate future.

2) Oklahoma City will contain a predominate amount of clay in the soil. Whereas Dallas has limestone as a foundation for it's soil.

http://www.nhnct.org/images/dfw_soil_map.jpg
http://www.nhnct.org/images/Soil_legend.jpg

Dallas is actually predominantly clay-based with some loam-based regions (central and north Dallas are clay regions however, the further you get from the TRV), which would put Dallas just about squarely in the middle of the soil texture triangle..

When we get LA land prices then we will get underground parking. I am just glad it had an interior garage and not a surface parking lot.

Kerry, He didn't say underground parking, he said underneath. Most parking in similar construction in LA is not underground. It is on the ground level with the apartments or condos above starting on the second level.

Is there that big of a difference in the soil between OKC and Dallas? I see a lot more underground residential parking there too.

Dallas is actually predominantly clay-based with some loam-based regions (central and north Dallas are clay regions however, the further you get from the TRV), which would put Dallas just about squarely in the middle of the soil texture triangle..
The Dallas area soils are not as elastic as the predominant red clay soils around OKC. There are parts of OKC that aren't too bad but you have to remember most everything near downtown is also related to a river bottom area which creates its own kind of foundation challenges. OKC also tends to go through more drought/soak precipitation cycles which causes the soil to expand/contract a bit more.

You can build basements and underground facilities in OKC, it just costs more because of the soils you have to design/build for. Here in Austin where you have limestone just below the topsoil it is a different situation. You also have to deal with the Karst Limestone formations which can have a lot of porosity in the stone and sometimes you don't find that out until you start drilling piers. We had a 4 story projects with one drill that hit a cave, someone went down in it and looked around but it was just a void in the stone and never looked to be occupied. It caused the piers to have to be set deeper. Because of the stone here retaining/basement walls tend to be thinner than up there since the soil isn't very elastic.

Don't question Spartan blue dog, your in the industry for a living, he's an expert college student.

The Dallas area soils are not as elastic as the predominant red clay soils around OKC. There are parts of OKC that aren't too bad but you have to remember most everything near downtown is also related to a river bottom area which creates its own kind of foundation challenges. OKC also tends to go through more drought/soak precipitation cycles which causes the soil to expand/contract a bit more.

You can build basements and underground facilities in OKC, it just costs more because of the soils you have to design/build for. Here in Austin where you have limestone just below the topsoil it is a different situation. You also have to deal with the Karst Limestone formations which can have a lot of porosity in the stone and sometimes you don't find that out until you start drilling piers. We had a 4 story projects with one drill that hit a cave, someone went down in it and looked around but it was just a void in the stone and never looked to be occupied. It caused the piers to have to be set deeper. Because of the stone here retaining/basement walls tend to be thinner than up there since the soil isn't very elastic.

Wow, limestone sounds like a lot of fun. I still don't see where Dallas would be much different pedologically from OKC..similar topographically, similar climatologically, and so on..especially with the relation of the two downtowns to a riverbed that goes about a mile south of the downtowns.

I don't doubt you'd know a lot more, and I did initially defer to the knowledge expressed in this thread, but on looking up the chart myself it seems like the two are actually remarkably similar in ways I hadn't even expected. Perhaps further west, maybe as close as FW, you'd start running into more prevalent limestone beneath the topsoil. Would that be more likely the case?

And metro, why be so abrasive? Do you have a grudge against Steve and I or something? Well, I've noticed a grudge from you against Steve so that's undeniable, but surely I'm not worthy of being in that same honorable category as him, to also have a grudge from you..

Kerry, He didn't say underground parking, he said underneath. Most parking in similar construction in LA is not underground. It is on the ground level with the apartments or condos above starting on the second level.

I got to thinking about that later in the day and realized that is what he meant. When I worked in downtown Tampa most of the newer office and residential buildings were built on top of structured parking. The first 10 floors of the building I worked in were all parking. The large podium is all parking (except for the first floor which housed a nice restaurant, post office, bank branch, and building lobby).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/marshellbreath/BATs/suntrustn2007.jpg

This developer is wasting no time!

I counted 5 or 6 heavy duty construction vehicles working early this morning. The entire building site has already been graded at least once, excess dirt is being piled up for haul off. Very exciting and has already given this area an improvement and is continuing the momentum of deep deuce.

Can someone say, "Construction Cam"??

With the residential around, surely an OKCTalk member has view of it and can set a webcam up in the window.

I hate to bring this up but now that we see the site plan, this project is very, very similar to the Legacy in terms of outside design: brick on first level, stucco/eifs on top three floors, buildings pushed to the street, interior parking garage with pool in courtyard, retail on ground level.

Of course with the Legacy, the issue was broken promises of what was proposed/approved and what was actually built. But the finished product looks to be incredibly similar to LEVEL, although this new project will have a more contemporary look, hopefully more progressive floorplans and finishes, and won't place hideous awnings with 3-foot lettering on the ground floor.

With the residential around, surely an OKCTalk member has view of it and can set a webcam up in the window.

You'd have to talk to betts about that. Or metro, in case you haven't heard he lives downtown, and I'm sure his window has a view of everything..

With the residential around, surely an OKCTalk member has view of it and can set a webcam up in the window.

How does one set up a webcam? I am right across the street but have no experience with these.

You'd have to talk to betts about that. Or metro, in case you haven't heard he lives downtown, and I'm sure his window has a view of everything..

Sometimes, I just love the banter between you two.

I hate to bring this up but now that we see the site plan, this project is very, very similar to the Legacy in terms of outside design: brick on first level, stucco/eifs on top three floors, buildings pushed to the street, interior parking garage with pool in courtyard, retail on ground level.

Of course with the Legacy, the issue was broken promises of what was proposed/approved and what was actually built. But the finished product looks to be incredibly similar to LEVEL, although this new project will have a more contemporary look, hopefully more progressive floorplans and finishes, and won't place hideous awnings with 3-foot lettering on the ground floor.

That's kind of interesting point, Pete. There are some fundamental similarities, but I never noticed them mainly because the design and philosophies seem different on the surface. It will be interesting to watch from that perspective and hopefully we don't have the same sinking feeling of disappointment we had when the legacy broke broke promises and became one big compromise that actually feels out of place in an urban setting.

In the end, when the two are compared, hopefully the level will serve as an example of how urban apartments and condos don't necessarily have to be gigantic high rises or vertical row houses to be urban. Being urban is more about experience and connecting with surrounding in a way the enhances the living of everyone in the area. As you know, some parts of LA are like this. While most of the apartment neighborhoods don't have have a typical urban look to them, there are still enclaves that have managed to offer a very urban living experience. The Level and the Legacy may end up being a good case study on what the real keys are to an urban development.

Of course, they could screw it up, too. : )

You'd have to talk to betts about that. Or metro, in case you haven't heard he lives downtown, and I'm sure his window has a view of everything..

FYI, Betts is a woman...

FYI, Betts is a woman...

Spartan was talking about Metro while using the pronoun "he"

Back on topic: I just went by on lunch break and took a couple photos of the site.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30796964@N02/5367353983/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30796964@N02/5367360865/

They appear ready to start moving some serious dirt around...

Spartan was talking about Metro while using the pronoun "he"

Ahhhhhh....commence argument!

Back on topic: I just went by on lunch break and took a couple photos of the site.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30796964@N02/5367353983/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30796964@N02/5367360865/

They appear ready to start moving some serious dirt around...

Sweet! So excited! Some of the residents are going to have fantastic views!!!

How does one set up a webcam? I am right across the street but have no experience with these.

Send a PM to Pete. He might be able to help you out like he did with the Devon Tower cam. Setting up the web cam is no harder than plugging it into a USB port, but for someone else to see requires a little more.

I sent Soho a message about setting up a webcam.

OKCTalk will provide the camera as longs as someone has 1) a good vantage point of a key project 2) a computer that is always on and connected to the Internet and 3) willingness to configure everything (I can step anyone through it) and do any adjustments as necessary.

Pete, you have a point with the Legacy comparison. Personally, I have no problem with Legacy's practical design, merely with it's bland architecture. I also think that LEVEL's location in Deep Deuce is far more likely to be successful as a mixed-use development, because the area is further along as a well-rounded neighborhood.


just an fyi the aloft will have a 2 story parking garage behind the property build into the hill so it will seem more like a 1story ..

Nice!


Most parking in similar construction in LA is not underground. It is on the ground level with the apartments or condos above starting on the second level.

There are a lot like that, but also many that have parking completely underground (and that's even with the earthquake risk).

Kerry, He didn't say underground parking, he said underneath. Most parking in similar construction in LA is not underground. It is on the ground level with the apartments or condos above starting on the second level.

That reminded me of Disney World in Florida. May be due to the sandy soil and/or water table issues but they built the entire "underground" (service tunnels etc) that are under the Magic Kingdom on the surface level and everything else on top of that. What the park goer thinks as the ground level is actually the 2nd story of the entire complex.

Update from yesterday, tall, chain-link fence around plot.

That reminded me of Disney World in Florida. May be due to the sandy soil and/or water table issues but they built the entire "underground" (service tunnels etc) that are under the Magic Kingdom on the surface level and everything else on top of that. What the park goer thinks as the ground level is actually the 2nd story of the entire complex.

Here you go Larry. This is looking south from the back of the park toward the Castle (enterance to park is at the top of the photo)

http://progresscityusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/mkconstruction.jpg

There is also a chain link fence around the lot between the Maywood Lofts and the brownstones. I wonder if they're going to keep materials and equipment for LEVEL there.

There seems to be several plots around the Brownstones that were set for building more Brownstones, some of which are north of the current buildings and some right next to them. I know LEVEL is taking up a plot that was originally going to be for Brownstones. Given all the usual caveats about the economy, do you guys think LEVEL could spur the building of additional Brownstones in those spots which appear to have been reserved for future expansion? Or has the developer given up on the idea of building more?

We're all pretty hopeful that LEVEL, together with Aloft, are going to bring an influx of life to that area, making it a more desirable and fully-developed neighborhood. This could be just what the Lofts and the Brownstones need to complete sales and expand.

When you talk to them, the developers still insist they're building more brownstones in the future. But, as far as I know, the only land currently available to do that is north of the existing buildings on 3rd St and adjacent to the existing ones. I believe the LEVEL developers own the land between the Maywood Lofts and the Brownstones now.

I really don't think any more brownstones will be feasible for a while. The brownstone idea might be better suited for another neighborhood anyway, since Maywood/Deep Deuce is developing at a higher density now. The best concept I've seen that hasn't yet happened for Maywood was the Leslie between the Lofts and Brownstones, and if I remember correctly that was going to be a really reasonably priced project that I think would do really well.

There are no three and four flat buildings anywhere that I can think of in Oklahoma City. One of the reasons I liked the Brownstones was because they reminded me of neighborhoods of row houses in Chicago and New York. One way to make them more affordable, which I believe was the plan with the Leslie, is to sell them by floor. However, appearance-wise, the Leslie would have looked no denser than the Brownstones. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with row houses. They are the most appealing neighborhoods anywhere, IMO. Any more dense and it becomes harder to raise a family and have dogs, which many people wanting to live downtown may plan or hope to do. I don't think high rises are intrinsically more noble than row houses, and both still give an urban feel to a neighborhood. I sincerely hope they build more Brownstones, because a high rise is going to interfere with the sunlight streaming through my northern windows, which is much appreciated in winter.

There are no three and four flat buildings anywhere that I can think of in Oklahoma City. One of the reasons I liked the Brownstones was because they reminded me of neighborhoods of row houses in Chicago and New York. One way to make them more affordable, which I believe was the plan with the Leslie, is to sell them by floor. However, appearance-wise, the Leslie would have looked no denser than the Brownstones. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with row houses. They are the most appealing neighborhoods anywhere, IMO. Any more dense and it becomes harder to raise a family and have dogs, which many people wanting to live downtown may plan or hope to do. I don't think high rises are intrinsically more noble than row houses, and both still give an urban feel to a neighborhood. I sincerely hope they build more Brownstones, because a high rise is going to interfere with the sunlight streaming through my northern windows, which is much appreciated in winter.

Yeah brownstones are great, don't get me wrong. I was referring to the density of units per acre, not necessarily built square footage per acre or number of stories. I think 3- and 4-flats would be really nice in Maywood or anywhere else in the inner city. The brownstones do fit nicely with the 4-story character of Deep Deuce, there just won't be much more demand for 3,000+ sf units.

The brownstones didn't fit the price range that the design target was for. Those of us with the means to buy are probably a little older and a little more financially secure. However, I don't want to be running up and down two or three flights of stairs to go to bed or grab a snack from the fridge. And my crowd is the same. Build us some flats with amenities and we are much more likely to move. I have a place is a brownstone in NYC (Chelsea) and it is a great 2 bedroom flat. But here, there aren't those kinds of choices for me and my wife downtown.

There are elevators available in the brownstones if you choose to have one. Personally, I like the exercise you get with stairs, but my husband uses the elevator. In addition, some people have a full kitchen on the top floor so they don't have to go to the 2nd floor kitchen. It's really not that different from walking around a ranch house to get places, in terms of distance. I really like the look of a townhouse, personally, and each floor is very cosy. We spend most of our time on the third and fourth floors, which have bedroom, study, family room and patio. But, I've lived in townhouses before, and my dream when I was younger was to own one in Georgetown, so for me it's something I preferred over a flat. But City Place is going to be a choice for people who only want to ride an elevator UP to their apartment, not between floors.