Most of the folks complaining either have no frame of reference or have ridiculous expectations for this market. These are the same people who think OKC could support an NFL and NBA franchise at the same time.

Penn is a pretty good mall. When I need clothing, aside from my suits, which I buy exclusively from Tom James, Penn offers a great mix of selection and if you look you can usually find what you need on sale somewhere.

Accepting Penn Square as a premier retail destination for a metro of 1.3 million would have to be some pretty low expectations. But then again, this is why most every metro over 800,000 is significantly ahead of OKC with retail. Omaha even has several malls that probably best Penn Square, not to mention they have stand-alone retail districts (like NoDo - Urban Outfitters) and the Old Market. Louisville has its Old Highlands and Village areas. Tulsa has Utica Square that is a suitable premier retail destination for them. Birmingham has a few areas too, including some beautiful urban suburbs.

I would tend to expect a little higher than Utica for OKC's premier retail destination, rather than a LOT lower. And there is no way to argue otherwise than Utica Square > huge margin > Penn Square.

I'm just saying that while I don't think I want to see the NFL in OKC, we deserve a LOT better retail, and continuing the delusions of grandeur surrounding Penn Square may be one of many factors keeping us in the dark.

Most of the folks complaining either have no frame of reference or have ridiculous expectations for this market. These are the same people who think OKC could support an NFL and NBA franchise at the same time.

Penn is a pretty good mall. When I need clothing, aside from my suits, which I buy exclusively from Tom James, Penn offers a great mix of selection and if you look you can usually find what you need on sale somewhere.

Exactly.

Accepting Penn Square as a premier retail destination for a metro of 1.3 million would have to be some pretty low expectations. But then again, this is why most every metro over 800,000 is significantly ahead of OKC with retail. Omaha even has several malls that probably best Penn Square, not to mention they have stand-alone retail districts (like NoDo - Urban Outfitters) and the Old Market. Louisville has its Old Highlands and Village areas. Tulsa has Utica Square that is a suitable premier retail destination for them. Birmingham has a few areas too, including some beautiful urban suburbs.

I would tend to expect a little higher than Utica for OKC's premier retail destination, rather than a LOT lower. And there is no way to argue otherwise than Utica Square > huge margin > Penn Square.

I'm just saying that while I don't think I want to see the NFL in OKC, we deserve a LOT better retail, and continuing the delusions of grandeur surrounding Penn Square may be one of many factors keeping us in the dark.

Maybe we're ahead of them. When have malls ever been the last word in city shopping? We use Dallas as a benchmark, but how urban is Dallas? When I go to a city, I want to shop at stores that aren't like what I have at home, for the most part, and the only large city where I've visited a mall is Atlanta. Nichols Hills Plaza, Classen Curve and Western have some great shopping with unique merchandise. For the most part, I'm really satisfied with the shopping options here nowadays. To be honest with you, I'd rather shop at Off Fifth than the Saks at Utica Square, because there's more merchandise and the prices are better. As I said, if you're wanting shoes, Dillards is starting to give Nordstrom a run for their money, and Heritage Shoes and the Webb have some excellent options as well, as does the Shoe Gypsy. It's a shame we lost the Chanel line, but you can get other high end designers here. It might be nice to have Louis Vuitton, but that's about it, as far as I'm concerned.

I undoubtedly agree that OKC has been behind in attracting the retail we deserve to a market of this size. Let's pause for a minute and thank the OKC Chamber & companies like Chesapeake for doing such fantastic retail economic development. It will be exciting to see the entire Classen Curve filled up.

Accepting Penn Square as a premier retail destination for a metro of 1.3 million would have to be some pretty low expectations. But then again, this is why most every metro over 800,000 is significantly ahead of OKC with retail. Omaha even has several malls that probably best Penn Square, not to mention they have stand-alone retail districts (like NoDo - Urban Outfitters) and the Old Market. Louisville has its Old Highlands and Village areas. Tulsa has Utica Square that is a suitable premier retail destination for them. Birmingham has a few areas too, including some beautiful urban suburbs.

I would tend to expect a little higher than Utica for OKC's premier retail destination, rather than a LOT lower. And there is no way to argue otherwise than Utica Square > huge margin > Penn Square.

I'm just saying that while I don't think I want to see the NFL in OKC, we deserve a LOT better retail, and continuing the delusions of grandeur surrounding Penn Square may be one of many factors keeping us in the dark.

I really don't get where you're coming from. I don't really compare Penn Square to Utica Square because one is a regional mall and the other an outdoors shopping center. But, even if you did, the only thing Utica really has over Penn is a Saks. The only other department store they have is Miss Jacksons, and that definitely isn't anything special. Really, what else does Utica have that Penn doesn't? An Anthropologie? Well, we have one of those nearby in Classen Triangle. Penn Square is more comparable though to its sister Simon branded indoor mall, Woodland Hills Mall. Both have a similar mix of tenants, have similar finishings (both in fact had interior renovations designed by the same interior designer, thus the reason why both have the same texture and color of marble floorings), etc. You can't really compare Penn Square to say the Beverly Center. One is in OKC and one is in LA. You can't compare Penn to the Houston Galleria. I mean, Houston is the 4th largest city in the US, and has a much larger population and more money.

Face it....this is Oklahoma City. What stores are you looking for exactly? Gucci, Louis Voutton, Burberry, Tiffany and Co, Nieman Marcus? Yeah, maybe for cities the size of Dallas.

You mention Omaha and say that it has SEVERAL malls that best Penn Square. Which Omaha malls are you referring to? Oak View Mall in Omaha is a mall owned by GGP, and has a store line-up that's almost identical to Quail Springs. You have Westroads Mall, another GGP mall, again with a similar line up as Quail Springs. Both claim to be the premier shopping destinations in Omaha, but yet have the same stores as Quail Springs. Regency Court is a smaller shopping mall that has some upscale stores, but not much anything more than Penn has. So, put your money where your mouth is and show me some facts on how Omaha has "several" malls that best Penn Square. You can't compare Penn Square to Old Market. One is a regional mall with national mall retailers, the other is a downtown arts and entertainment district. So, I don't really see why the bashing of Penn Square. It's pretty comparable to other upper middle level malls in similar markets.

Penn Square has pretty much the same upper middle level stores as all of the places you mention: J Crew, White House Black Market, Jos A. Bank, Potter Barn, Williams Sonoma, Ann Taylor, Ann Taylor LOFT, Apple, Lucca, Apricot Lane, Swarovski, Sephora, Eddie Bauer, Vans, Aldo, Cache, Brighton, Apple, Coach, Chicos, Brookstone, J. Jill, Bachrach, Georgiou, Coldwater Creek, Fossil, Banana Republic. And then they also have the more traditional middle road national retailers like the Gap stores, The Limited, Lane Bryant, Wet Seal, Justice, Hot Topic, Finish Line, Foot Locker, Yankee Candle, New York and Company, Men's Warehouse, Charlotte Ruse, Aerosptale, Motherhood Maternity, Claires, Origins, Bath and Body Works, Zales, Gordons, Bare Ecentuals, Bakers, Claires, the Abrecrombie stores, Vanity, The Buckle, Build-A-Bear, American Eagle, etc.

I just don't get what you're looking for. That's equivalent or better than to two main malls in Omaha. For a mid-size mall, I think that's a pretty decent mix. I mean, I think it's a little unfair to try to compare Penn to The Houston Galleria, Beverly Center, Northpark Center, etc.

Well said Patrick, but maybe Spartan is one of the 99%'ers college students that regularly enjoys shopping a Neiman Marcus, Saks, Gucci, Fendi, Armani, Versace and the likes. Don't most of us 99%ers? I mean come on surely you regularly shopped at these type of stores elsewhere in college and traveling abroad during your studies?

I don't understand why one would complain about retail options in this day and age. You can shop online, fly drive/have your chaufeur drive you to Dallas, Houston or Kansas City for the day or weekend.

I really don't see the need to buy have the expensive stuff on the market these days. Any day we slide right into financial ruin the debt keeps piling up and all it will take is the foreign governments to call in the loans we owe or another major industry to hit hardship. There is not enough money for another bailout therefore the next big crash will slide us right into a record depression.

I really don't get where you're coming from. I don't really compare Penn Square to Utica Square because one is a regional mall and the other an outdoors shopping center. But, even if you did, the only thing Utica really has over Penn is a Saks. The only other department store they have is Miss Jacksons, and that definitely isn't anything special. Really, what else does Utica have that Penn doesn't? An Anthropologie? Well, we have one of those nearby in Classen Triangle. Penn Square is more comparable though to its sister Simon branded indoor mall, Woodland Hills Mall. Both have a similar mix of tenants, have similar finishings (both in fact had interior renovations designed by the same interior designer, thus the reason why both have the same texture and color of marble floorings), etc. You can't really compare Penn Square to say the Beverly Center. One is in OKC and one is in LA. You can't compare Penn to the Houston Galleria. I mean, Houston is the 4th largest city in the US, and has a much larger population and more money.

Face it....this is Oklahoma City. What stores are you looking for exactly? Gucci, Louis Voutton, Burberry, Tiffany and Co, Nieman Marcus? Yeah, maybe for cities the size of Dallas.

You mention Omaha and say that it has SEVERAL malls that best Penn Square. Which Omaha malls are you referring to? Oak View Mall in Omaha is a mall owned by GGP, and has a store line-up that's almost identical to Quail Springs. You have Westroads Mall, another GGP mall, again with a similar line up as Quail Springs. Both claim to be the premier shopping destinations in Omaha, but yet have the same stores as Quail Springs. Regency Court is a smaller shopping mall that has some upscale stores, but not much anything more than Penn has. So, put your money where your mouth is and show me some facts on how Omaha has "several" malls that best Penn Square. You can't compare Penn Square to Old Market. One is a regional mall with national mall retailers, the other is a downtown arts and entertainment district. So, I don't really see why the bashing of Penn Square. It's pretty comparable to other upper middle level malls in similar markets.

Penn Square has pretty much the same upper middle level stores as all of the places you mention: J Crew, White House Black Market, Jos A. Bank, Potter Barn, Williams Sonoma, Ann Taylor, Ann Taylor LOFT, Apple, Lucca, Apricot Lane, Swarovski, Sephora, Eddie Bauer, Vans, Aldo, Cache, Brighton, Apple, Coach, Chicos, Brookstone, J. Jill, Bachrach, Georgiou, Coldwater Creek, Fossil, Banana Republic. And then they also have the more traditional middle road national retailers like the Gap stores, The Limited, Lane Bryant, Wet Seal, Justice, Hot Topic, Finish Line, Foot Locker, Yankee Candle, New York and Company, Men's Warehouse, Charlotte Ruse, Aerosptale, Motherhood Maternity, Claires, Origins, Bath and Body Works, Zales, Gordons, Bare Ecentuals, Bakers, Claires, the Abrecrombie stores, Vanity, The Buckle, Build-A-Bear, American Eagle, etc.

I just don't get what you're looking for. That's equivalent or better than to two main malls in Omaha. For a mid-size mall, I think that's a pretty decent mix. I mean, I think it's a little unfair to try to compare Penn to The Houston Galleria, Beverly Center, Northpark Center, etc.

Basically everything I said in post #71

Totally agree Patrick and OkNick. But good luck convincing him that he's got a scewed perspective. Of course, he must be correct. (sarcasm).

Well said Patrick, but maybe Spartan is one of the 99%'ers college students that regularly enjoys shopping a Neiman Marcus, Saks, Gucci, Fendi, Armani, Versace and the likes. Don't most of us 99%ers? I mean come on surely you regularly shopped at these type of stores elsewhere in college and traveling abroad during your studies?

Wtf are you talking about?

I really don't get where you're coming from. I don't really compare Penn Square to Utica Square because one is a regional mall and the other an outdoors shopping center. But, even if you did, the only thing Utica really has over Penn is a Saks. The only other department store they have is Miss Jacksons, and that definitely isn't anything special. Really, what else does Utica have that Penn doesn't? An Anthropologie? Well, we have one of those nearby in Classen Triangle. Penn Square is more comparable though to its sister Simon branded indoor mall, Woodland Hills Mall. Both have a similar mix of tenants, have similar finishings (both in fact had interior renovations designed by the same interior designer, thus the reason why both have the same texture and color of marble floorings), etc. You can't really compare Penn Square to say the Beverly Center. One is in OKC and one is in LA. You can't compare Penn to the Houston Galleria. I mean, Houston is the 4th largest city in the US, and has a much larger population and more money.

Face it....this is Oklahoma City. What stores are you looking for exactly? Gucci, Louis Voutton, Burberry, Tiffany and Co, Nieman Marcus? Yeah, maybe for cities the size of Dallas.

You mention Omaha and say that it has SEVERAL malls that best Penn Square. Which Omaha malls are you referring to? Oak View Mall in Omaha is a mall owned by GGP, and has a store line-up that's almost identical to Quail Springs. You have Westroads Mall, another GGP mall, again with a similar line up as Quail Springs. Both claim to be the premier shopping destinations in Omaha, but yet have the same stores as Quail Springs. Regency Court is a smaller shopping mall that has some upscale stores, but not much anything more than Penn has. So, put your money where your mouth is and show me some facts on how Omaha has "several" malls that best Penn Square. You can't compare Penn Square to Old Market. One is a regional mall with national mall retailers, the other is a downtown arts and entertainment district. So, I don't really see why the bashing of Penn Square. It's pretty comparable to other upper middle level malls in similar markets.

Penn Square has pretty much the same upper middle level stores as all of the places you mention: J Crew, White House Black Market, Jos A. Bank, Potter Barn, Williams Sonoma, Ann Taylor, Ann Taylor LOFT, Apple, Lucca, Apricot Lane, Swarovski, Sephora, Eddie Bauer, Vans, Aldo, Cache, Brighton, Apple, Coach, Chicos, Brookstone, J. Jill, Bachrach, Georgiou, Coldwater Creek, Fossil, Banana Republic. And then they also have the more traditional middle road national retailers like the Gap stores, The Limited, Lane Bryant, Wet Seal, Justice, Hot Topic, Finish Line, Foot Locker, Yankee Candle, New York and Company, Men's Warehouse, Charlotte Ruse, Aerosptale, Motherhood Maternity, Claires, Origins, Bath and Body Works, Zales, Gordons, Bare Ecentuals, Bakers, Claires, the Abrecrombie stores, Vanity, The Buckle, Build-A-Bear, American Eagle, etc.

I just don't get what you're looking for. That's equivalent or better than to two main malls in Omaha. For a mid-size mall, I think that's a pretty decent mix. I mean, I think it's a little unfair to try to compare Penn to The Houston Galleria, Beverly Center, Northpark Center, etc.

That's the operative difference. Penn Square's niche is middle of the road retailers. That's not a problem at all. The problem begins and ends with the fact that Penn Square is widely regarded as OKC's premier retail "destination" and the ownership is going to leverage that to get their hands on a public investment in their mall, and that's what I'm totally against for two main reasons. First being that at no time should our limited public resources be spent on another indoor shopping mall which we have plenty of, and the second is that competes with higher civic priorities. Like actual destination retail, urban retail, etc.

As for Omaha, you just rationalized how none of those are comparable to Penn Square. We agree there, because all of those are far better shopping destinations than Penn Square. Old Town somehow has been able to make urban retail work. How is that we, with more than double the downtown investment of Omaha in the last decade, keep making laughable passes at the goal of urban retail?

Consider that these are retailers that Omaha had for years: Whole Foods, Wild Oats (pre-merger), Trader Joe's, California Pizza Kitchen, Cheesecake Factory, Urban Outfitters, Anthropologie, and others.

Even though this project is out at 168th and West Dodge, I'd consider Village Point (think similar to the dead Village Quail Springs/Tuscana project) superior to anything we have yet. Regency Court is also an excellent retail project, also on Dodge (think 50 Penn in its heyday). They got Urban Outfitters in their downtown. One Pacific Place is also worth mentioning, it has TJ and some other good upscale retailers. And lastly, here's the best development in all of Omaha (IMO):

http://hickorycreekcapital.com/images/506_Fall_2009-Turner_Park.JPG
Midtown Crossing - a true mixed-use development, which has injected a ton of vitality in an area that was pretty blighted.

Our problem in OKC is that we need to stop accepting low quality development. We need to stop praising Penn Square, which would be considered middle-range anywhere else. OKC is very particular for having exceedingly low building standards, which have been normalized over time, thus making it very difficult to raise the bar. We just need to focus more on getting these kinds of developments that Omaha has, for example (granted, several of these Omaha projects are NOT perfect).

Problem #1 - You are trying to compare a Mall built back in the 70's with a brand new shoping district that is a mixed use facilty. How are those two even in the same part of the planet? This is really the base of the flawed arguement here. Comparing apples to oranges makes for a bad discussion. If you want a heads on battle, you have to go with Penn to something like Woodland Hills Mall in Tulsa....not Utica.

Problem #2 - You say "accept low quality development". Penn was built decades before you were even born. I'd say you would hard pressed to find anyone, anywhere that would say the facility isn't better now than it was when it was built. Or would you rather it had stayed an outdoor 70's niche strip mall? The updates made to the MALL have kept it going and in a nice way. It COULD have gone the way of Shepard Mall, which WAS THE destination mall in OKC in its time. I would say Penn has done just fine for itself.

As for the question of developing downtown, you're too young to have really experience downtown in the early 90's. We HAD to put that much into it to make ANYTHING happen. WE killed it off with "urban renewal" and we paid the price for it. When you're at the bottom of the barrell, it takes a LOT of effort to pull yourself back up. Really, only in the last 10 (and even more the last 5) have we seen the push outside of civic efforts to really make a difference downtown. Retail isn't going to be the first thing back. I wouldn't be surprised if it never comes back. It's one thing to maintain that downtown retail like Omaha (who didn't have downtown death like OKC). But after that, the retail world changed to move away from downtowns. Getting it to go back is far more difficult now. For one thing, you don't have the people living there to make it happen. And with so many options outside of downtown for those that don't live downtown, why would they go downtown? You have to force people there by putting in something that isn't available elsewhere to start with. Dave and Busters could have been a good example of that. There are plenty places to eat downtown, but what do you do besides see a movie?

Problem #1 - You are trying to compare a Mall built back in the 70's with a brand new shoping district that is a mixed use facilty. How are those two even in the same part of the planet? This is really the base of the flawed arguement here. Comparing apples to oranges makes for a bad discussion. If you want a heads on battle, you have to go with Penn to something like Woodland Hills Mall in Tulsa....not Utica.

Problem #2 - You say "accept low quality development". Penn was built decades before you were even born. I'd say you would hard pressed to find anyone, anywhere that would say the facility isn't better now than it was when it was built. Or would you rather it had stayed an outdoor 70's niche strip mall? The updates made to the MALL have kept it going and in a nice way. It COULD have gone the way of Shepard Mall, which WAS THE destination mall in OKC in its time. I would say Penn has done just fine for itself.

As for the question of developing downtown, you're too young to have really experience downtown in the early 90's. We HAD to put that much into it to make ANYTHING happen. WE killed it off with "urban renewal" and we paid the price for it. When you're at the bottom of the barrell, it takes a LOT of effort to pull yourself back up. Really, only in the last 10 (and even more the last 5) have we seen the push outside of civic efforts to really make a difference downtown. Retail isn't going to be the first thing back. I wouldn't be surprised if it never comes back. It's one thing to maintain that downtown retail like Omaha (who didn't have downtown death like OKC). But after that, the retail world changed to move away from downtowns. Getting it to go back is far more difficult now. For one thing, you don't have the people living there to make it happen. And with so many options outside of downtown for those that don't live downtown, why would they go downtown? You have to force people there by putting in something that isn't available elsewhere to start with. Dave and Busters could have been a good example of that. There are plenty places to eat downtown, but what do you do besides see a movie?

Bomber, this is a good post for you (relatively innocuous personal attacks, points backed up with reasoning) - keep it up! I promise you I will respond more to all of your points, and I'm going to tell you that you have some things right IMO, when I have more time..

But just a few quick points..

I think you're missing the point about indoor shopping malls. The fact that OKC's "premier retail destination" is an indoor shopping of no particular distinction a la Galleria status, is the epitome of the problem. Obviously Utica Square is a more evolved (or you could say enlightened) development form (ironic for pre-dating it, and replacing something that was so similar to Utica). If a city doesn't have a "Galleria" (or "Mall of America," etc., whatnot) usually these days the premier retail destination IS a lifestyle center or urban development. We don't have that as far as retail goes, yet.

I'd be careful about arguing some differences between Shepherd and Penn, as opposed to the outdoor mall predecessor. Penn is obviously a LOT more similar to Shepherd.

Furthermore, I think downtown retail is more a matter of a can-do attitude than we realize. I may exaggerate the development volume (primarily residential infill in the thousands of units), but I think you underestimate it. That's an okay thing to be bullish on, in fact IMO it's much more interesting than being bullish on a 1970s-era indoor shopping mall.

I don't think Penn is the finest example I could come up with for "accepting low quality development." We all know the countless cases of that. I think Quail is a much better example than Penn.

Lastly, I think Omaha did kill its downtown with a smaller urban renewal program. Every major city did urban renewal, especially considering there was federal money being thrown at cities for doing so. I may be wrong on this, I'm not an Omaha expert (only been there few times), but I think the Old Town there developed on a similar timeline to Dallas' West End (so just slightly ahead of Bricktown) although clearly it outlasted the West End.

Wichita has an Old Town with tons of local retail, I'm told. Lackmeyer has done several blog posts on Wichita, although I usually plug my nose and speed up whenever I'm going through there so I wouldn't know.

Wichita's Old Town is pretty nice for the size of ICT. Their downtown is nice and the NW and NE sides of town are put together pretty well. No reason to go south of Kellogg, but that's how I feel about I-40 here so it's not the end of the world.

This thread is relatively useless. It is a thread that was hijacked by Spartan's youthful criticism, like most others he gets involved with...followed by a lot of "what are you talking abouts?". Followed by meaningless, plotted retorts from the critic.

Another reason why this is useless is because malls (large scale retail) are almost completely dependent on out-of-state investment. It's not a good time for that. Local people and companies that own property in OKC are in general, squatters. Buy it up and sit on it, hoping for a big, out-of-state investor to get stupid with the cash.

I think at some point in this thread an example of a model, Omaha mall (seems like an oxymoron) was one of those outdoor malls. As many of us remember, that's what Penn² used to be. I can remember going there as a kid in the summer, and being absolutely miserable. Sweat and shopping don't mix. Neither does frostbite (or broken hips) and shopping. Indoor malls are where it's at when you need a lot of stores in the same area. I think Penn² is fine, and probably the most desirable mall in the city, although it's not "upscale" (another silly OKCTalk-ism). And BTW, the Midtown Crossing example in a mall discussion was horrible. This is self-explanatory when you visit their website. They're condos with 4 shops and a few trendy restaurants. Give it up!

This thread is relatively useless. It is a thread that was hijacked by Spartan's youthful criticism, like most others he gets involved with...followed by a lot of "what are you talking abouts?". Followed by meaningless, plotted retorts from the critic.

Another reason why this is useless is because malls (large scale retail) are almost completely dependent on out-of-state investment. It's not a good time for that. Local people and companies that own property in OKC are in general, squatters. Buy it up and sit on it, hoping for a big, out-of-state investor to get stupid with the cash.

I think at some point in this thread an example of a model, Omaha mall (seems like an oxymoron) was one of those outdoor malls. As many of us remember, that's what Penn² used to be. I can remember going there as a kid in the summer, and being absolutely miserable. Sweat and shopping don't mix. Neither does frostbite (or broken hips) and shopping. Indoor malls are where it's at when you need a lot of stores in the same area. I think Penn² is fine, and probably the most desirable mall in the city, although it's not "upscale" (another silly OKCTalk-ism). And BTW, the Midtown Crossing example in a mall discussion was horrible. This is self-explanatory when you visit their website. They're condos with 4 shops and a few trendy restaurants. Give it up!

You have to remember that Spartan is your not so typical OKC enthusiast..that's "never enthusiastic" about anything.

I don't understand why one would complain about retail options in this day and age. You can shop online, fly drive/have your chaufeur drive you to Dallas, Houston or Kansas City for the day or weekend.

For some, shopping is a casual activity, something they just "do" that's not always motivated by the need or want to make a purchase. And, most importantly for the city, if people are blowing that type of cash to do it in Dallas, Houston, or Kansas City, then the city stands to gain a lot from attracting the kind of retail that these people are flying to or being chauffeured to, as the city loses a lot of money when the tax on those sales do not end up in its coffers. The sales themselves could also be bigger simply because the customer would save a few hundred dollars by avoiding the transportation and lodging costs.



Consider that these are retailers that Omaha had for years: Whole Foods, Wild Oats (pre-merger), Trader Joe's, California Pizza Kitchen, Cheesecake Factory, Urban Outfitters, Anthropologie, and others.

Well, if this is the goal, then Oklahoma City IS on a roll as far as retail goes, given that half of those have opened locations here in the last few years. In the end, true urban retail is as much about cultivating local and community based retail as it is bringing in the corporate mass market ones. The real reason, imo, to take shopping dollars out of state is to visit densely occupied shopping districts that feature unique locally owned shops. If the type of stores you listed want to put up shop in Oklahoma City, then that's fine, but honestly, if we're going to commit public resources to retail, I think we're better served in the long run cultivating our local businesses first rather than selling our souls to corporate retail. Not only does more of the money stay in Oklahoma, but it helps keep the city from just becoming "everywhere USA". Penn Square swap a lot of its current stores for more "upscale" ones and the experience would not change much. It would still be an indoor suburban mall filled with mass market retailers. They'd just be charging 20-50% more for their fashion than the current ones do.

Indoor malls are where it's at when you need a lot of stores in the same area. I think Penn² is fine, and probably the most desirable mall in the city, although it's not "upscale" (another silly OKCTalk-ism). And BTW, the Midtown Crossing example in a mall discussion was horrible. This is self-explanatory when you visit their website. They're condos with 4 shops and a few trendy restaurants. Give it up!Maybe indoor malls can make a come back if considerably cheaper and more efficient ways can be found to heat and cool them.

This thread is relatively useless. It is a thread that was hijacked by Spartan's youthful criticism, like most others he gets involved with...followed by a lot of "what are you talking abouts?". Followed by meaningless, plotted retorts from the critic.

Another reason why this is useless is because malls (large scale retail) are almost completely dependent on out-of-state investment. It's not a good time for that. Local people and companies that own property in OKC are in general, squatters. Buy it up and sit on it, hoping for a big, out-of-state investor to get stupid with the cash.

I think at some point in this thread an example of a model, Omaha mall (seems like an oxymoron) was one of those outdoor malls. As many of us remember, that's what Penn² used to be. I can remember going there as a kid in the summer, and being absolutely miserable. Sweat and shopping don't mix. Neither does frostbite (or broken hips) and shopping. Indoor malls are where it's at when you need a lot of stores in the same area. I think Penn² is fine, and probably the most desirable mall in the city, although it's not "upscale" (another silly OKCTalk-ism). And BTW, the Midtown Crossing example in a mall discussion was horrible. This is self-explanatory when you visit their website. They're condos with 4 shops and a few trendy restaurants. Give it up!

Before you make references my age, why don't you tell us all your age for the record? Even though I'm getting ganged up on here, I'm going to continue to point out the posts that wreak ignorance..this is definitely one of them.

Did you want me to actually respond to metro's post, or are you another account of metro's, or do you have any good reason to care what response I had for metro and other stupid posts in this thread? I'll quote metro's post again just to highlight its relevance to this discussion and profound depth of reasoning:



Well said Patrick, but maybe Spartan is one of the 99%'ers college students that regularly enjoys shopping a Neiman Marcus, Saks, Gucci, Fendi, Armani, Versace and the likes. Don't most of us 99%ers? I mean come on surely you regularly shopped at these type of stores elsewhere in college and traveling abroad during your studies?

Or this one:


For what it's worth, i never said Galleria was upscale....it's just a size comparison.

Spartan, how interesting how so many people disagree and you decide to just abandon your comments rather than give any details to support them. When you and I disagree, at least i'll make the good fight to support my arguement.

Or this one:


You have to remember that Spartan is your not so typical OKC enthusiast..that's "never enthusiastic" about anything.

___________

I'm sorry, but these are posts coming from someone who's sad enough to think he has a message board rivalry with anyone approaching 1/10th of his post count, someone who recently insisted that lease meant for-sale vis a vis downtown housing discussions, and someone who I don't know, but thinks they know me (or at least enough to reference personal attributes of myself, which creeps me out coming from you message board people).

So yes, I agree with proud2bsooner that this thread is doomed. It's doomed because I have made my argument that perhaps OKC should look beyond the typical indoor mall options for growing its retail. I offered some pretty concrete examples of how all of those retailers we're looking for aren't going into indoor malls. If you guys think Urban Outfitters (or [insert coveted retailer here]) is going to locate in Penn Square, keep on dreaming. And then don't be surprised when Simon hits us up for millions and millions in public financing and subsidies saying it's the only option for growing our retail.

I've made my arguments. I've yet to see a decent argument that addresses the reality of indoor malls going the way of the dodo nationally in a way that convinces me we need to invest in ours at the cost of investing in other opportunities. I'm finished responding to personal attacks and repeated arguments. I'm certain several other posters will continue to say I've dodged your responses, but I will let you guys know when I see an argument that is worth responding to rather than ad hominems and baseless retorts. Still waiting...

I think this thread has been more of an exercise in backlash against me and less of an actual forum for ideas or meaningful thoughts. I think BDP had a meaningful post, or at least from skimming it appeared so, but I just don't have the energy or care enough to read it after going through a page full of crap in this thread. I wish there was a way to more meaningfully express my annoyance at this, but I hope eventually less posters on here will feel the need to stunt critical evaluation. Why people feel so constantly threatened by taking a critical look at OKC's issues, I have no idea.

My impression is that several posters on here are intellectually juvenile.

Guys, Spartan is right. He is the only person who can see the truth. And everyone else that is against him is wrong. Even though that is the overwhelming majority of people on this board, he is still the only one that is right.

Come on people!

Another ad hominem..

What public (taxpayer) investments are being sought by Penn Square Mall?

Nothing is proposed for Penn Square, but nothing will be done to it without public incentives. Especially with some of the anchor tenants that have been previously mentioned in this thread as being on Simon's radar. For example, Saks is simply not coming to OKC, anywhere in OKC, without a significant public subsidy--the ULI panel helped establish that reality.

Nothing is proposed for Penn Square, but nothing will be done to it without public incentives. Especially with some of the anchor tenants that have been previously mentioned in this thread as being on Simon's radar. For example, Saks is simply not coming to OKC, anywhere in OKC, without a significant public subsidy--the ULI panel helped establish that reality.

Any chance you could provide a link to the ULI panel establishing that reality?

The great Spartan has spoken. All should bow. How dare you question.

I'm trying to think of the last time I went to a mall in a major city and I'm coming up blank. There's good, if not great, local shopping here, just not downtown. I think Penn Square serves it's purpose. If we get a Saks like Tulsa, why bother? There's better shopping at Off Fifth than the Tulsa Saks, to be honest with you. I think we're blowing this out of proportion. I'd rather spend my energy, and city money, on generating more retail downtown.

Any chance you could provide a link to the ULI panel establishing that reality?

I was at this ULI event. It was a few years back but they did say that a large Saks type store would require some public financing. However I think that was for a downtown location. I've never heard anything about Simon looking for public dollars to expand penn square. And we definitely should not give it to them if so.
I am of the opinion that Simon could and should expand penn square, I'd think they'd have no problem leasing it out and making it profitable.

Nothing is proposed for Penn Square, but nothing will be done to it without public incentives. Especially with some of the anchor tenants that have been previously mentioned in this thread as being on Simon's radar. For example, Saks is simply not coming to OKC, anywhere in OKC, without a significant public subsidy--the ULI panel helped establish that reality.


Any chance you could provide a link to the ULI panel establishing that reality?

Since you can't be bothered to provide a link showing this "establish[ed] ... reality", I'm going to go ahead and presume you are referring to this from the ULI FInal Report:

"The Core to Shore Plan calls for aggressive retail de* velopment on the blocks south of Myriad Gardens to the new Boulevard. During the interviews, the panel heard desires for a major new shopping destina*tion with a department store anchor—dreams of a Nordstrom or a Neiman Marcus. The panel cautions that destination retail on this scale is not going to happen. Downtown lacks the density of residents, employees, and visitors to support such a major facility. Furthermore, very few department stores are being built today, and the incentive packages required to attract one to a downtown location start at $40 million or more.
(www.okc.gov/planning/coretoshore/ULIfinalrepor.pdf)

Note that it does not mention Sak's and is talking only about downtown locations.

Stop making stuff up, Spartan.

Isn't Saks in the same category as a Nordstrom or a Neiman Marcus? During the event that was played repeatedly on the City cable channel, the female panelist mentioned that destination retail on that scale was not going to happen...I don't recall if they gave specific store examples like they did in the report you cited. And yes it was in regards to a DT location as part of the Core to Shore/Boulevard ULI presentation a couple of years ago.

Isn't Saks in the same category as a Nordstrom or a Neiman Marcus? During the event that was played repeatedly on the City cable channel, the female panelist mentioned that destination retail on that scale was not going to happen...I don't recall if they gave specific store examples like they did in the report you cited. And yes it was in regards to a DT location as part of the Core to Shore/Boulevard ULI presentation a couple of years ago.

Yes. Saks is in the same category. Obviously, the more important misstatement was with regard to ULI "establishing reality" on anything other than a downtown location for such stores.

I think we've beat a dead horse already on whether or not Penn Square is a dump or not. However, I went to PSM today and noticed an Oakley store is coming soon, The Yankee Candle store is closed down and a Paciugo Gelato joint is coming soon near the food court.

I think we've beat a dead horse already on whether or not Penn Square is a dump or not. However, I went to PSM today and noticed an Oakley store is coming soon, The Yankee Candle store is closed down and a Paciugo Gelato joint is coming soon near the food court.

Confirmed here with others.



http://newsok.com/penn-square-mall-announces-new-stores/article/3672527

Since you can't be bothered to provide a link showing this "establish[ed] ... reality", I'm going to go ahead and presume you are referring to this from the ULI FInal Report:

"The Core to Shore Plan calls for aggressive retail de* velopment on the blocks south of Myriad Gardens to the new Boulevard. During the interviews, the panel heard desires for a major new shopping destina*tion with a department store anchor—dreams of a Nordstrom or a Neiman Marcus. The panel cautions that destination retail on this scale is not going to happen. Downtown lacks the density of residents, employees, and visitors to support such a major facility. Furthermore, very few department stores are being built today, and the incentive packages required to attract one to a downtown location start at $40 million or more.
(www.okc.gov/planning/coretoshore/ULIfinalrepor.pdf)

Note that it does not mention Sak's and is talking only about downtown locations.

Stop making stuff up, Spartan.

Are you drunk or something? A friend of mine on here sent me a PM that I should check this thread out. My apologies, I don't click on every thread every single day. In fact I'm a pretty busy guy right now. I am so sorry for not getting back with you immediately, plus I guess I didn't even see your posts because I have you on block - this means I have to go out of my way and click a few buttons in order to even see your posts.

I would invite you to provide proof that a Saks location 4 miles north of downtown would magically require no subsidy whereas the downtown location would. If you can provide indisputable proof that Saks would happily locate in North OKC of their own volition, I will retract my remarks.

By the way, for those of you who think I am making stuff up against indoor shopping malls, here are a few links.
http://deadmalls.com/
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500202_162-4884407.html
http://www.economist.com/node/10278717
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/20/is-the-american-shopping_n_145260.html

Here's a fairly in-depth blog post I did on the topic, and keep in mind this was pre-Whole Foods (in fact it's full of 2-year old busted links). I think it offers a fairly critical, albeit outdated, analysis of the retail recruitment efforts. This post is interesting because it was written at the end of several years of failing to gain traction, and right before the inception of a highly successful period of retail recruitment (the last two years). Truisms are still true, though--the biggest slight on OKC is that we simply don't have available space that's good enough, or else new retailers would be entering the market more often.
http://downtownontherange.blogspot.com/2010/05/buyers-remorse-in-okc.html

But then again, why do I bother. Some posters are only capable of directing a critical analysis individually rather than at issues. Oil Capital will have to pardon me for considering him/her a waste of my time at this point...

Also as Larry mentioned, I would not characterize the ULI report without watching the entire report. It's only about an hour long, but is extremely informative. These experts explain their own context so that people like Oil Capital can't do it for them.

Are you drunk or something? A friend of mine on here sent me a PM that I should check this thread out. My apologies, I don't click on every thread every single day. In fact I'm a pretty busy guy right now. I am so sorry for not getting back with you immediately, plus I guess I didn't even see your posts because I have you on block - this means I have to go out of my way and click a few buttons in order to even see your posts.

I would invite you to provide proof that a Saks location 4 miles north of downtown would magically require no subsidy whereas the downtown location would. If you can provide indisputable proof that Saks would happily locate in North OKC of their own volition, I will retract my remarks.

By the way, for those of you who think I am making stuff up against indoor shopping malls, here are a few links.
http://deadmalls.com/
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500202_162-4884407.html
http://www.economist.com/node/10278717
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/20/is-the-american-shopping_n_145260.html

Here's a fairly in-depth blog post I did on the topic, and keep in mind this was pre-Whole Foods (in fact it's full of 2-year old busted links). I think it offers a fairly critical, albeit outdated, analysis of the retail recruitment efforts. This post is interesting because it was written at the end of several years of failing to gain traction, and right before the inception of a highly successful period of retail recruitment (the last two years). Truisms are still true, though--the biggest slight on OKC is that we simply don't have available space that's good enough, or else new retailers would be entering the market more often.
http://downtownontherange.blogspot.com/2010/05/buyers-remorse-in-okc.html

But then again, why do I bother. Some posters are only capable of directing a critical analysis individually rather than at issues. Oil Capital will have to pardon me for considering him/her a waste of my time at this point...

Also as Larry mentioned, I would not characterize the ULI report without watching the entire report. It's only about an hour long, but is extremely informative. These experts explain their own context so that people like Oil Capital can't do it for them.

LOL. It's really very simple Spartan. You told us that the ULI report established a fact that the report did not even address or discuss (non-downtown department stores). None of your whining changes that. Setting up strawmen to knock down does not change that. Reading the entire ULI report (as I have done) establishes the reality. ;-)

Stop making stuff up, Spartan.

No other report, study, survey, task force, or anything else, has come any closer than the ULI to evaluating the prospect of Saks in OKC. I don't think you understand fallacies if you think that's a strawman.

I am going to go ahead and venture a guess that you can't provide evidence that Saks will come to an expanded Penn Square. I base this guess on the fact that you have already replied, and once again you only had negative comments bordering on personal insults, and again, added absolutely nothing new to the discussion. You have perfected the art of deflecting while accusing others of deflection. I wonder what fallacy that is...

Typical Oil Capital.

No other report, study, survey, task force, or anything else, has come any closer than the ULI to evaluating the prospect of Saks in OKC. I don't think you understand fallacies if you think that's a strawman.

I am going to go ahead and venture a guess that you can't provide evidence that Saks will come to an expanded Penn Square. I base this guess on the fact that you have already replied, and once again you only had negative comments bordering on personal insults, and again, added absolutely nothing new to the discussion. You have perfected the art of deflecting while accusing others of deflection. I wonder what fallacy that is...

Typical Oil Capital.

... and the cited report does not come close to evaluating the prospects of a Saks in a non-downtown shopping mall. So, we have now established the reality that when Spartan earlier claimed otherwise, he was lying.

I never made the claim that Saks will locate a store at Penn Square Mall. I merely asked you for a link to the ULI study that established the reality that Saks would never put a store anywhere in OKC without a taxpayer subsidy. I look forward to seeing that study. (Of course we all know no such study exists.)

Earlier in the thread you were complaining that nobody on this board was interested in discussing facts and supporting their claims. A few pages back you made the claim that Omaha has several malls that probably best Penn Square. Patrick asked you which Omaha malls you had in mind. No answer. I asked for a link to a study. No answer. In the spirit of your stated desire to have a discussion of facts and argument about those facts, I think challenging a so-called "established reality" and indeed proving that "established reality" to be false, does add to the discussion.

Good grief, this whole discussion was kicked off with Spartan attacking a strawman he set up (nobody had previously suggested that Penn Square was a national-level premier shopping center. If that was actually a widely-held opinion, we wouldn't be routinely having discussions about how/when PS can expand to add better stores).

Later in the thread we are introduced to another strawman: that indoor malls are dying. Nobody suggested otherwise or argued with the idea when Spartan threw it out there. Yet he continues to post as if someone is arguing the point, and even posted links to studies establishing THAT reality (or sort of, at least). (Odd, isn't it, that he answers arguments that are not being made, but doesn't answer questions that are asked)

Stop making stuff up, Spartan.

P.S. Spartan, I am quite happy when you pretend to have me on ignore. But rest assured I will continue to challenge your made-up "facts".

Nothing is proposed for Penn Square, but nothing will be done to it without public incentives. Especially with some of the anchor tenants that have been previously mentioned in this thread as being on Simon's radar. For example, Saks is simply not coming to OKC, anywhere in OKC, without a significant public subsidy--the ULI panel helped establish that reality.

So, does Saks Off Fifth Avenue in the Outlet Mall count?

I am going to go ahead and venture a guess that you can't provide evidence that Saks will come to an expanded Penn Square. I base this guess on the fact that you have already replied, and once again you only had negative comments bordering on personal insults, and again, added absolutely nothing new to the discussion. You have perfected the art of deflecting while accusing others of deflection. I wonder what fallacy that is...

Typical Oil Capital.

OK, so by that logic i can say that if you can't provide me evidence that there aren't plans anywhere, then it will happen. And i know you can't do that because you can't read the minds of investors. I could also say that unless you can provide evidence to say that there isn't air, then it exists. It's a silly basis for an arguement.

But i forgot, Spartan has spoken, and we're not supposed to disagree.

I think we've beat a dead horse already on whether or not Penn Square is a dump or not. However, I went to PSM today and noticed an Oakley store is coming soon, The Yankee Candle store is closed down and a Paciugo Gelato joint is coming soon near the food court. Actually, the Yankee Candle Shop moved on the upper west side of the mall, however it is still in business at PS.

I was told yesterday that the Origins store in Penn Square is closing. I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did.

A building permit for $5,300,000 to renovate the common areas of the mall was just issued.

Not sure of the plans, but that's a pretty bit chunk of money, so substantial updates must be in the offing.

Could it be common areas on the exterior of the mall? They have been doing a few stages of rehabbing the exterior and parking lots recently and the interior was redone not that many years ago.

The permit just says "remodel of the mall area".

Last week they were tearing the fascade off the west side of the mall. I'm not sure what they were planning. It could be a new exterior or it could be just to build a direct entrance to the store that's located behind the wall. Or both.

Can they get $5.3 million spent by Halloween, the new official start of the Christmas shopping season?

We were out there this weekend and they're clearly doing something fairly extensive to the old Express/Rothschild's location (okay, that latter reference dates me). They're pulling out walls down to the metal studs and old brick.

We were out there this weekend and they're clearly doing something fairly extensive to the old Express/Rothschild's location (okay, that latter reference dates me). They're pulling out walls down to the metal studs and old brick.

I believe it's going to be a 2-level Forever 21.

I believe it's going to be a 2-level Forever 21.

This looks promising: http://newsok.com/renovation-project-to-begin-at-oklahoma-citys-penn-square-mall-in-spring/article/3701601

New stores plus some fancy new entrances.

This looks promising: http://newsok.com/renovation-project-to-begin-at-oklahoma-citys-penn-square-mall-in-spring/article/3701601

New stores plus some fancy new entrances.

I really hope they get a new one of these:

http://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/r620-378aeba1843d0ace4e2da21fa85b0c5d.jpg

That thing is piece of crap!

L
I really hope they get a new one of these:

http://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/r620-378aeba1843d0ace4e2da21fa85b0c5d.jpg

That thing is piece of crap!

Agree. They need REAL upscale signage, like the Galleria in Dallas and the street signage near the Galleria in Houston.

Sara Sara Cupcakes just pulled a building permit for a location in Penn Square.

Pulled as in had one before the committee and "pulled" it off the table or is "pulling" for a space to build in the mall?

I meant they filed for one today and they are usually granted within a day or two.

When I was at the mall yesterday I noticed that the little sushi stand was gone. Any idea if it's gone for good? I hope not as they had pretty tasty sushi.

Yes, I can say, from an extremely reliable source, that Sara Sara Cupcakes plans to enter a retail space in Penn Square Mall at some point in 2013. Eventually, Penn Square Mall will be expanding their Food Court as well to include the existing Starbucks location, and Sara Sara will be a part of that expansion. But, Sara Sara will be in the mall long before the expansion in an interim location while the expansion of the food court goes.

Don't expect a Sak's in OKC any time soon, they are closing a couple of stores including the Austin location in The Arboretum and one in a Chicago burb.

Statesman.com - Saks Fifth Avenue to close Austin store (http://www.statesman.com/business/business-digest-saks-fifth-avenue-to-close-austin-2451428.html)

Don't expect a Sak's in OKC any time soon, they are closing a couple of stores including the Austin location in The Arboretum and one in a Chicago burb.

Statesman.com - Saks Fifth Avenue to close Austin store (http://www.statesman.com/business/business-digest-saks-fifth-avenue-to-close-austin-2451428.html) Wow surprised about the Saks in Austin. I could see the Tulsa store being closed before Austin? I do not see Saks opening a full fledged department store in OKC in the near future. However saw today in the DO that upscale store Michael Kors will be opening shop in Penn Square. I also saw where L'Occitane will be opening a store in Penn Square. It appears that slowly PS is attracting more upscale tenants.

On the Journal Record's Web site today was this: "High-end retailers including Michal Kors Lifestyle and L’Occitane En Provence, along with local favorite Sara Sara Cupcakes are among some of the new stores coming to Penn Square Mall as part of a makeover of the shopping center that will cost at least $5.3 million."

This thread has been dormant since May except for recent posts by BlueDog & Progressive - anybody have an update?

There were actually two threads that have now been merged.

The owners Website.