View Full Version : Penn Square Mall
OkieBerto 01-20-2025, 10:24 AM Not really, although an interurban line did go along NW 39th, of which a portion was aligned with the Grand Avenue loop. Here is a map of the historic streetcar alignments:
https://www.abetterlifeokc.com/clientuploads/blog/streetcarMap.jpg
My favorite part about learning more about this streetcar alignment is the spots in the city where the tracks still show up. On Youngs Blvd there are many spots like this one (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4889594,-97.552263,3a,75y,62.36h,79.14t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sVfUKdx4QdVN9m_KVuFbjAQ!2e0!6sh ttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dm aps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D10.85 6433907096076%26panoid%3DVfUKdx4QdVN9m_KVuFbjAQ%26 yaw%3D62.36209998632248!7i13312!8i6656?authuser=0&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDExNS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)!
It's always a little sickening to see these old maps because we threw away all this amazing infrastructure and are now spending billions to recreate a tiny fraction of it.
Similarly, lots of cities are tearing out interstate highways in their cores and trying to reestablish what had been great urban fabric.
And we are still in the process of trying to remove "modern" facades that cover up beautiful architecture.
Of course, European countries pretty much avoided all these mistakes in the first place. It's like the U.S. went completely brain-dead for about half a century.
zefferoni 01-21-2025, 08:57 AM My favorite part about learning more about this streetcar alignment is the spots in the city where the tracks still show up. On Youngs Blvd there are many spots like this one (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4889594,-97.552263,3a,75y,62.36h,79.14t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sVfUKdx4QdVN9m_KVuFbjAQ!2e0!6sh ttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dm aps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D10.85 6433907096076%26panoid%3DVfUKdx4QdVN9m_KVuFbjAQ%26 yaw%3D62.36209998632248!7i13312!8i6656?authuser=0&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDExNS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)!
I've always assumed that Linwood Blvd was named as such because it was the streetcar track to the Linwood neighborhood (around where the line crosses I-44 on the west side of that map). You can definitely tell it ran along NW 12th St to Drexel to NW 19th St. At Wayman's Park there's a 'turn lane' that was definitely just the track paved over.
OkieBerto 01-21-2025, 09:49 AM I've always assumed that Linwood Blvd was named as such because it was the streetcar track to the Linwood neighborhood (around where the line crosses I-44 on the west side of that map). You can definitely tell it ran along NW 12th St to Drexel to NW 19th St. At Wayman's Park there's a 'turn lane' that was definitely just the track paved over.
Yes, Linwood Place was at the end of the line and they called the homes there, "Country Estates". I lived there for about 5 years a decade ago and it was clear some very prominent Oklahoma City residents built homes there. Like the home that Chris Schwab of Schwab Meat Company built and lived in back then. I have close friends who bought it and moved their family into it. They have been restoring it back to it's glory keeping most of the historic character. It is such an interesting neighborhood and by far one of my favorites.
Urbanized 01-21-2025, 10:47 AM Wayman’s Park was named Linwood Park until 1969. Renamed then after a young man (boy?) in the neighborhood who apparently died young, at the request of his parents, according to the City’s website.
Newspaper reports from the early 20th century don’t make it clear where the name Linwood came from, but I did find mentions of it as a street name as early as 1906, which was three years before the streetcar was extended as a part of what appeared to be a second phase of development in the area. There are newspaper ads from a real estate company - one that appears to have included William Skirvin - from 1906 promoting buying homes in Linwood Park, while in 1909 development started in Linwood Place.
Here is a clipping promoting the kickoff of the latter development, which included an extension of Anton Classen and John Shartel’s railway (in the article the specific line to be extended was called the Neas Line):
19452
Urbanized 01-21-2025, 10:52 AM By the way, the “W.F. Hale” mentioned in that article is most likely a typoed W.T. Hales, who made a fortune selling mules and horses downtown (including to the U.S. military during the Spanish American War, the British during the Second Boer War in South Africa, the British and French during WWI, the 101 Ranch, plus coal mines back east and railroad builders throughout the west) and who later transitioned to banking and real estate. He did a lot of business aligned with Classen and also with Henry Overholser, his across- the-street neighbor on NW 15th in what is now called Heritage Hills. Oh, and he is Megan Mullally’s great grandfather.
HOT ROD 01-21-2025, 03:03 PM Pete, yes it does totally pain to see those old pics of OKC, including the transit and downtown where lots have been 'covered up'.
I wonder if it would be a consideration for the city to expand the OKC Streetcar utilizing some of the heritage routes we used to have. I'd imagine it'd be cheaper since the utilities were already accommodated for and then we could very well re-urbanize development along the lines; essentially restoring some of the urban fabric in a way that used to exist.
Looks like all of the inner city districts were well covered, Capital Hill, Stockyard's City, the downtown districts, Asian and Paseo, Eastside, and even the Adventure District. Maybe we could do a MAPS 5 for transit, restoring these areas to promote urban development. Since the routes existed and likely the track is just buried, couldn't we dig that up and install modern track cheaper than starting from scratch?
ditm4567 01-21-2025, 03:51 PM Glad to see Pete will delete political comments--that were clearly a joke since it was teed up and hit 315 down the center of the fairway--when said comments, well, you know what I won't even go there.
Dob Hooligan 01-21-2025, 05:37 PM Pete, yes it does totally pain to see those old pics of OKC, including the transit and downtown where lots have been 'covered up'.
I wonder if it would be a consideration for the city to expand the OKC Streetcar utilizing some of the heritage routes we used to have. I'd imagine it'd be cheaper since the utilities were already accommodated for and then we could very well re-urbanize development along the lines; essentially restoring some of the urban fabric in a way that used to exist.
Looks like all of the inner city districts were well covered, Capital Hill, Stockyard's City, the downtown districts, Asian and Paseo, Eastside, and even the Adventure District. Maybe we could do a MAPS 5 for transit, restoring these areas to promote urban development. Since the routes existed and likely the track is just buried, couldn't we dig that up and install modern track cheaper than starting from scratch?
I'm guessing the lines were abandoned 70 years ago, and no thought was given to preserving their land for future use. So, there are probably many areas where utilities and land usage have compromised easy installation. In my part of town (Fairgrounds area) there were a few lines, and I think it would be cool to have them back. But, I'm not sure how many would ride, and the cost, of restoring the lines, like NW 12th west from Pennsylvania to Drexel, north to 23rd, with cross lines on 19th, etc.
Pretty much make a circle 3 miles from the center of OKC, and if you are on a street with a median, then it was probably on a street car line.
Plutonic Panda 01-21-2025, 05:43 PM Surprise surprise, but count me as somebody that is very happy. Our freeway system was built.
bombermwc 01-23-2025, 09:09 AM It's always a little sickening to see these old maps because we threw away all this amazing infrastructure and are now spending billions to recreate a tiny fraction of it.
Similarly, lots of cities are tearing out interstate highways in their cores and trying to reestablish what had been great urban fabric.
And we are still in the process of trying to remove "modern" facades that cover up beautiful architecture.
Of course, European countries pretty much avoided all these mistakes in the first place. It's like the U.S. went completely brain-dead for about half a century.
It's that whole post WW2 era when anything that might be looked at as "old" was equated to bad. Cover it up and make it look "modern". Who cares if it's damaged. But remember, at that point there really wasn't that much that had true historic significance. The US is still so young compared to Europe. They have structures hundreds of years old that are still going strong. The US has started appreciating that we DO have historic gems out there and that we need to preserve them and not just doze or cover them up.
The challenge is also recognizing that when the structure is still in that in-between. It's fallen out of the "new" category but hasn't yet gotten to "historic". Same story as before....can you renovate and hold the charm without making it still feel like an old crappy building.....and it still financially make sense. It's soooo tough. We will have to decide at some point soon if those 1960's concrete brutalist structures are going to fit in to the "preserve" category or not. We have a ton of those office buildings around the city. Most have had some sort of renovations that added on or changed something about the facade. Think the Oil Center or First Fidelity on Classen. That building design is copy/paste all over OKC. Or at least one very close to it. You get to see a lot of different ideas on changes to it that way...but where do you draw that line for renovate to keep relevant, and preserve for what it is (in this case brutalism).
baralheia 01-24-2025, 08:09 PM Maintenance never gets completed (like the sewer line issue).
I don't have a dog in this fight since I haven't stepped foot in that mall for a few years now... but for what it's worth the plumbing issues are nothing new. I worked at the theater around 2005-2006-ish and Simon was constantly battling with the plumbing even back then.
Teo9969 01-26-2025, 03:01 PM I'm guessing the lines were abandoned 70 years ago, and no thought was given to preserving their land for future use. So, there are probably many areas where utilities and land usage have compromised easy installation. In my part of town (Fairgrounds area) there were a few lines, and I think it would be cool to have them back. But, I'm not sure how many would ride, and the cost, of restoring the lines, like NW 12th west from Pennsylvania to Drexel, north to 23rd, with cross lines on 19th, etc.
Pretty much make a circle 3 miles from the center of OKC, and if you are on a street with a median, then it was probably on a street car line.
Fascinating!!! That makes a ton of sense.
Penn Square to get a Johnston & Murphy store.
HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/pennsquare020625a.jpg
BoulderSooner 02-06-2025, 09:12 AM Penn Square to get a Johnston & Murphy store.
this has been a long time coming .. the store at the outlet mall does very very well .. and they have been trying to make this work for a while .
Bowser214 02-06-2025, 09:13 AM Wow nice get!!! Had one at the upscale North Park Mall in Dallas for years! Oh but Penn Square is in shambles and looks like a discount outlet mall lol! ( I’m being sarcastic)
progressiveboy 02-06-2025, 10:22 AM I remember there was a Johnston & Murphy store at Quail Springs Mall from the 80's to about the 90's then closed. J&M has a great shoe line and wish them much success at PSM!
Bowser214 02-06-2025, 10:39 AM Dillards carries their men’s line of clothing
Patrick 02-11-2025, 02:52 PM That's in the Michael Kors spot. What happened to them?
OkieBerto 02-11-2025, 04:25 PM That's in the Michael Kors spot. What happened to them?
Maybe they are moving spots or leaving. I was in this section this weekend and the Michael Kors store was definitely open and had people shopping in it.
Same. Penn was buzzing on Saturday, especially that wing.
OkieinGeorgia 02-12-2025, 10:19 AM I remember there was a Johnston & Murphy store at Quail Springs Mall from the 80's to about the 90's then closed. J&M has a great shoe line and wish them much success at PSM!
My dad was the general/district manager of that store and I believe there was also one in Crossroads as well back in the early 80's. I remember going to work with him a few times as a child and going to both Quail and Crossroads with him. In 82 we moved to Dallas and he was running stores there before he early retired in 1983.
dheinz44 02-16-2025, 06:05 PM There was a store closing sign posted outside Forever 21 when I was at the mall this weekend. Has this been confirmed on here yet? That would be a huge loss.
There was a store closing sign posted outside Forever 21 when I was at the mall this weekend. Has this been confirmed on here yet? That would be a huge loss.
Would be particularly shocking because a big chunk of that chain is owned by Simon which owns Penn Square itself.
OTOH, F21 has had all types of problems with bankruptcy and store closings.
Justthis 02-16-2025, 11:26 PM The one at the Outlet Mall is almost closed too. I think their last day was this weekend or very soon.
Patrick 02-17-2025, 09:04 AM JC Penney is similar to Forever 21 in that Simon and Brookfield has a stake in them. So I doubt they will be leaving penn square or Quail Springs
bison34 02-22-2025, 02:16 PM Forever 21 will be closing this store, among about 200 others.
Mississippi Blues 02-22-2025, 07:42 PM It’ll be interesting to see what will go in its place. It’s a fairly large space if it were to stay the same size. Zara is the first place that comes to mind to fill an area like that.
bison34 02-22-2025, 07:46 PM It’ll be interesting to see what will go in its place. It’s a fairly large space if it were to stay the same size. Zara is the first place that comes to mind to fill an area like that.
Zara would be great, and there are fairly similar, in terms of what they offer. It's a big space at PSM, so you're right, it will be interesting.
Justthis 02-22-2025, 09:54 PM Well the weird thing about that spot is I believe it is not actually owned by the mall, or leased by the mall- I think Apple owns it.
bison34 02-22-2025, 11:06 PM Well the weird thing about that spot is I believe it is not actually owned by the mall, or leased by the mall- I think Apple owns it.
Are they going to move there (take all 2 floors)? Or did they lease it to Forever 21? Seems farfetched, but I won't doubt you.
Well the weird thing about that spot is I believe it is not actually owned by the mall, or leased by the mall- I think Apple owns it.
No, Simon owns everything at Penn Square except the Charter Bank out-parcel and the parking lot north of Macy's.
scottk 02-23-2025, 11:19 AM No, Simon owns everything at Penn Square except the Charter Bank out-parcel and the parking lot north of Macy's.
Even the anchors? I thought Dillards, Macy's and JCPenney all owned their stores.
Even the anchors? I thought Dillards, Macy's and JCPenney all owned their stores.
Nope. Simon owns everything except what I mentioned.
Rover 02-23-2025, 09:56 PM Zara would be great, and there are fairly similar, in terms of what they offer. It's a big space at PSM, so you're right, it will be interesting.
Zara and F21 are very different merchandise. Zara a much better offering…better quality.
Uniqlo would be great, but doubt they are looking at OKC.
Justthis 02-23-2025, 10:31 PM No, Simon owns everything at Penn Square except the Charter Bank out-parcel and the parking lot north of Macy's.
I don't doubt you since looking up property records is a snap (lazy here), but I had a convo with the mall mgr (Jeff) years ago and he said they owned 95% of it but didn't include that spot. Things might have changed in the years since, but that was straight from his mouth when I managed a store there.
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