I will 100% agree with this! I also think most Oklahomans much prefer a "normal" parking lot to a parking garage. I have notice about every time I go to PSM, cars are lined up and down the aisles waiting for a parking spot and the garage is almost completely empty (other than a few cars on top of it).

Do we think that the location of the parking garage is hidden from most people who just enter from the west and south entrances? Not thinking there would be parking in the back. That is how I see it.

I said something similar last year about how the place is stagnant and got told 100 reason why my opinion was wrong. Looks like I'm not the only one that thinks PSM isn't what it once was.

Honestly, i think it's just taking a little longer for the inevitable to happen here. The decline has started, people here just refuse to admit it.

You know better than to disagree with the masses here. Either your poor, dumb, or both if you're not on board.

You know better than to disagree with the masses here. Either your poor, dumb, or both if you're not on board.

No, that is false. It is simple: If the vast majority of the public believes something and you believe the opposite, then maybe you have unrealistic expectations, or you are just wrong—plain and simple. It has nothing to do with being poor or dumb.

No, that is false. It is simple: If the vast majority of the public believes something and you believe the opposite, then maybe you have unrealistic expectations, or you are just wrong—plain and simple. It has nothing to do with being poor or dumb.

I've seen it time and time again, people don't agree and the masses crucify them.

PSM isn't a bad mall, but to me it's been dirty the last few times I've been, that's a janitorial issue but should be addressed.

Also to blindly defend it is outlandish. See WS closing and being completley out of the market for years, also caused issues for other tenants in the area.

I said something similar last year about how the place is stagnant and got told 100 reason why my opinion was wrong. Looks like I'm not the only one that thinks PSM isn't what it once was.

Honestly, i think it's just taking a little longer for the inevitable to happen here. The decline has started, people here just refuse to admit it.

I've lived in many parts of the country and seen many malls and I used to love to go to the mall, sit in common areas and relax, hang out. I have absolutely no desire to do that in PSM. Not relaxing, not an enjoyable experience. As soon as I get in I want to get what I came for and leave. Perhaps the common walking areas between stores isn't as grand as other malls I've been and if feels tight, don't know.

Wow. I never really stop to think about Quail Springs Mall. You're totally right. Why is it so bad? When was it ever good? Any thoughts on what led to it's decline?

It was a great mall before the 2000's. When malls started declining, all of the retailers consolidated to Penn Square. Retailers have always questioned the demographics of QSM because there's just a lot of sparsely populated land around it that spreads out so it hurts how the financials appear.

Quail Springs has done a good job of adapting with the big theater, Life Time Fitness, Blue Zoo, H&M, and Round 1.

It's not as busy as Penn Square but they have held their own.

BTW, Macy's just announced the closure of 66 stores and Penn Square is not one of them.

That's 66 malls about ready to lose a big anchor tenant.

i have two complaints about Penn Square Mall. the escalators randomly being broken and not just open to use as stairs, and the Lego store is too small, but that one might just be me

i have two complaints about Penn Square Mall. the escalators randomly being broken and not just open to use as stairs, and the Lego store is too small, but that one might just be me

I do agree with you on both subjects

I see Lego bags everywhere in the mall when I go! I am shocked they do not upgrade to a bigger footprint, but I guess it really doesn't inhibit them from making sales, so they might just be going with the philosophy of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"

Quail Springs has done a good job of adapting with the big theater, Life Time Fitness, Blue Zoo, H&M, and Round 1.

It's not as busy as Penn Square but they have held their own.

I will say, in my opinion, QSM is one of the best designed and laid out malls I have ever seen, in terms of geography. Easy in an out from 3 major roads (plus turnpike), ample parking all around (easy access to all parts of the mall), etc. PSM is quite the opposite... it's a royal pain to get in and out of, especially between Thanksgiving and Christmas!

I will say, in my opinion, QSM is one of the best designed and laid out malls I have ever seen, in terms of geography. Easy in an out from 3 major roads (plus turnpike), ample parking all around (easy access to all parts of the mall), etc. PSM is quite the opposite... it's a royal pain to get in and out of, especially between Thanksgiving and Christmas!

that is because PSM was not originally built as an indoor mall .

Penn Square is doing better than a lot of malls right now. I mean look at the DFW area, Vista Ridge, Willow bend which was supposed to be a high class mall, Ridgmar and even the Galleria are all struggling. Penn really just needs to do something about the broken escalators and occasional sewer smell problem.

I worked at Dillard’s QSM when the mall first opened. John A. Brown was there as well. Too bad the didn’t put an ice rink
Under that big glass atrium.
No will dispute PSM needs a make over but it’s not a run down low end outlet mall condition either. Maybe a TIF might work lol

A big problem at PSM is cars: You can't get there without one. It has proximity to I-44, but actually getting on/off is a real pain, especially during holidays. It has only two entrances & exits on Penn, and one on NW Expressway. (The one connecting w/ Belle Isle Boulevard is practically unusable at any time.) And once onto the property parking is a problem due to employees parking near the mall entrances. Years ago employees were urged/told to park where Container Store & UMB Bank are now, and then shuttled to the building. Now they simply take spaces nearest the building. I do everything I can to avoid shopping there.

that is because PSM was not originally built as an indoor mall .

Interesting. What was it built as (I'm sure is probably says in the 73 pages of this thread, but...)?

Growing up, I thought I was lucky to go to Oakwood Mall (Enid), but hit the jackpot at Woodland Hills (probably my favorite mall, though I haven't been there is years, so can't speak to the current condition), though my mom always liked Promenade Mall (way back in the day). Didn't make it to OKC that much. So, don't know my OKC history that well.

Penn Square opened in 1960 as a mainly one-level open shopping center.

It was first enclosed in 1982 then renovated and expanded in 1988.

You can read more about the mall and see historic photos here:

https://okcmod.com/2015/01/penn-square-oklahomas-first-modern-shopping-mall/


Also, this is a great hi-res aerial from the 60s. Penn is in the lower right and NW Ex is in the top right. The parking lot in the bottom center is where the Cheesecake Factory now stands.

The original department stores were John A. Brown, Rothschild's, and Montgomery Ward. You can see the Ward's auto center which was demolished; Whiskey Cake is now in that location.

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/pennsquare1960.jpg

This is from 1969 and 2025:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/pennsquare1969x.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/pennsquare2025a.jpg

I've lived in many parts of the country and seen many malls and I used to love to go to the mall, sit in common areas and relax, hang out. I have absolutely no desire to do that in PSM. Not relaxing, not an enjoyable experience. As soon as I get in I want to get what I came for and leave. Perhaps the common walking areas between stores isn't as grand as other malls I've been and if feels tight, don't know.

Funny but I did exactly that last Saturday. My wife was meeting a friend at Texas De Brazil for lunch, was probably going to have 2-3 drinks and didn't want to drive. So I took her there then went in the mall and just hung out for about 2 1/2 hours until she was through with her lunch. I walked the mall for the first 30 minutes or so then found a nice chair to sit in in a common area and just hung out, did some things on my phone and people watched. When my wife joined me after her lunch We went to the food court and I ate. It was relaxing and a very enjoyable experience. It was better than driving home only to have to drive back to pick her up. I had no intention of shopping in any of the stores or buying anything. The only store I went in was Penney's and that was only to use their escalator.

This is from 1969 and 2025:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/pennsquare1969x.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/pennsquare2025a.jpg

I very much remember going to Penn Square as a kid in the 60s with my parents before it was an enclosed mall. We shopped at Montgomery Ward a lot.

I very much remember going to Penn Square as a kid with my parents before it was an enclosed mall.

Me too.

At Christmastime, there would be a huge Santa in the central courtyard along with a little house where you had your picture taken.

I bought my first home personal computer at Wards. A Packard Bell 286 that ran Windows 3.1.

The commercials on TV for Kamber's with Eleanor Kamber doing them. And it was a special treat to go to Penn Square and eat at Val Genes cafeteria.

Wow. I never really stop to think about Quail Springs Mall. You're totally right. Why is it so bad? When was it ever good? Any thoughts on what led to it's decline?

Quail Springs Mall probably peaked about 1998-2000 when AMC 24 was the best movie theater and newest in the OKC Metro. General Growth Properties owned the mall and the entire mall received a renovation when the Route 66 food court and movie theatre opened around the turn of the century, which brightened up the space from all the brown tile and wood grain that was used when the mall opened in the early 80's. Many of those same features from that renovation remain in the mall today.
From a layout and tenant perspective, Quail Springs Mall looked a lot like Woodland Hills Mall with JCPenney's, Foleys (Macy's), Dillards, and Sears and it's race track design. Location wise too it was very similar to Tulsa's Woodland Hills being in a sprawling big box retail area, 71st Street and Memorial Road are very similar in retail offerings and seas of parking lots.

Penn Square's history looked a lot like Promenade Mall in Tulsa in that it was originally open air and in an older and denser part of town with a more unique layout. However, mall ownership for Penn Square and Quail Springs Mall really determined the path they took in securing retail and general aesthetic's of the malls during the 2000's.

Penn Square became the "better" mall when Simon Property Group took ownership and they were able to get higher end retail into the mall like Apple, William Sonoma, Pottery Barn, etc, and renovated the mall with nicer finishes compared to Quail. Quail Springs kept more middle tier tenants found in most malls (Gap, Hollister, Journeys, etc). As time as gone on, Penn Square has been able to remain as the retail mall, keeping many of the name brand stores, and exclusive stores to OKC. Quail Springs did have the addition of Von Maur and H&M since AMC was added, but many of the traditional stores have left allowing QSM to shift to more of an activity based mall (Blue Zoo, Round One, Lifetime Fitness). Von Maur built their store when Sears closed. If PSM had anchor space, I imagine Von Maur would have been approached by Simon and PSM. Newer movie theaters like Flix on Broadway Extension and Showbiz in Edmond have probably pulled away some of the AMC foot traffic that the mall enjoyed.


Kudos to Quail Springs in at least maintaining and going after a different demographic to keep the mall at least sustainable. If the JCPenney closed at QSM, I could easily see Scheel's coming into that that space to be in OKC, as they did in the old Sears locations in Tulsa and Wichita malls.

Like many metro areas around us there is typically one flagship shopping mall left. OKC has Penn Square, Tulsa has Woodland Hills, Wichita has Towne East. Comparing OKC malls to certain Malls in DFW is unfair as the density of DFW draws in people from a much bigger trade area. As Pete pointed out, DFW certainly has its share of dead malls outside of the handful of flagship centers like Northpark, Galleria or even Stonebriar Centre.

OKC has lost Heritage Park and Crossroads. Tulsa lost Promenade Mall recently, and Eastland Mall was renovated into a call center, Eastgate MetroPlex. Towne West in Wichita has just a handful of mall tenants left outside of their anchor stores (Dillard's Clearance, JCPenny, and Dick's Sporting Goods)

Given the amount of name brand retail and decent demographics of the Quail Springs corridor that exist outside of Quail Springs Mall, I imagine Quail Springs Mall will exist in some fashion.

With the potential rise of retail in far north east Edmond (I-35/Covell) it will be interesting to see how much of an impact that has on the Edmond retail traffic that typically has diverted to Memorial Road for name brand dining and retail. The good news is that the northwest side of OKC is growing, especially in the Paycom corridor and Deer Creek areas.

OKC lost Shepherd Mall too which opened in 1964 which also had the huge Sears store next door but not really a part of the mall

This is the classic sunk cost fallacy.

State something strongly that goes against obvious facts, then keep doubling down for years on end after others keep providing information to the contrary and holding onto any scrap to vindicate yourself.

Disagree Pete. If you go back into the thread, which im not going to copy and paste for you, you will see all my points on why i feel the way I do.

Foot traffic is not where my complaints are (although as I have said before, when i have been there the place was almost deserted). With 70+ pages of comments, im not going to go back and re-state everything for everyone yet again. But in general, there has been little notable investment in 20 years. Small amounts have been done to entrances and the food court, but that's about it. The tile is cracking and is dirty AF, the same look and feel is dated from the early 2000's at this point (but it did age better than the bright colors). The stores that leave are starting to be filled by the crappy local types that are the death sign of a mall. Maintenance never gets completed (like the sewer line issue).

The list goes on. The pig has some good lipstick and is still the best in OKC for what it is. But it in no way, is absolutely not the same caliber of mall is was in the early 2000's.

You want to shop there, go for it. I'm not telling you to not go there. But as a consumer, i'm entitled to my opinion of the place as much as you are. And personally, your arguments don't sway me any more than mine do you. So there we go. But it's rare that you and I see eye to eye on pretty much anything anyway.....also, that's totally fine. I'm not butthurt about it.

Dang! We can always count on Pete to come through! Those pictures are cool and I had no idea that's how PSM developed.

I will also admit, I have never heard of Lerner Shops, nor do I remember seeing it in the mall (not that I go to PSM that much, I live much closer to QSM). I gather it was still open in 2015 (per the article), so there's a chance I could have seen it before. Google doesn't recognize it in OKC anymore, though... only Indianapolis. And the first thing their website shows are bow ties... so no wonder I have never heard of them (or remember them).

A big problem at PSM is cars: You can't get there without one. It has proximity to I-44, but actually getting on/off is a real pain, especially during holidays. It has only two entrances & exits on Penn, and one on NW Expressway. (The one connecting w/ Belle Isle Boulevard is practically unusable at any time.) And once onto the property parking is a problem due to employees parking near the mall entrances. Years ago employees were urged/told to park where Container Store & UMB Bank are now, and then shuttled to the building. Now they simply take spaces nearest the building. I do everything I can to avoid shopping there.

The secret sauce for PSM parking is second level of the garage. It's covered, you can park reasonably close to the entrance by the movie theater, and it nearly always has lots of space available.

If you want to see a dying mall go to Sooner Fashion Mall in Norman. I think if Old Navy moves then it's just a matter of time until Dillard's is gone. Pretty much the only two tenants that have business. Well Chick-fil-a has a ton of business I guess.

The Sears wing has been closed for a very long time. Whole thing would have to be demolished.

The El Chico at the sooner mall is always busy. It's my mother-in-law's favorite restaurant so we always have to go when she visits.

If you want to see a dying mall go to Sooner Fashion Mall in Norman. I think if Old Navy moves then it's just a matter of time until Dillard's is gone. Pretty much the only two tenants that have business. Well Chick-fil-a has a ton of business I guess.

The Sears wing has been closed for a very long time. Whole thing would have to be demolished.

That Dillards does well in Norman. It won't close down for good. It will relocate, most likely. The problem for Norman is, there are no sports available. No 150,000 sq ft anchor spots in UNP, either.

The El Chico at the sooner mall is always busy. It's my mother-in-law's favorite restaurant so we always have to go when she visits.

Amazing! I went to that El Chico many, many times in college! I can't believe it made it this long, especially when El Chico's are dropping like flies.

Some more cool images from the 60s, including an early plan for Belle Isle Lake.

Sure glad we dried that thing up, built a huge elevated freeway through the middle, then plopped down a Walmart Super Center.

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/pennsquare1967a.jpg

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/pennsquare1967c.jpg

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/pennsquare1967b.jpg

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/pennsquare1967e.jpg

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/pennsquare1967d.jpg

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/belleislestation073122a.jpg

Pete did 44 just end and merge into the circle?? (or was it even 44 back then)

PSM is decent. It is by no means a upscale mall like Lenox Square in Atlanta or Northpark Mall in Dallas. It serves the demographics of the city. I will have to agree with bombermwc the floor is somewhat dirty with chips found throughout the mall. It does have some good stores but my opinion would be to update the mall as it is somewhat dated, fix the sewage smell, get more national tenants!

PSM is decent. It is by no means a upscale mall like Lenox Square in Atlanta or Northpark Mall in Dallas. It serves the demographics of the city. I will have to agree with bombermwc the floor is somewhat dirty with chips found throughout the mall. It does have some good stores but my opinion would be to update the mall as it is somewhat dated, fix the sewage smell, get more national tenants!

Most of the smaller, local tenants are just placeholders to get revenue while leases are negotiated with larger tenants.

I spent way too much time trying to match these up with Google. Haha! These are cool! Ok, in the 5th picture (right before the current one). I assume those were the plans/renderings? I can't figure out the two skyscrapers and industrial stack.

Just think, if the lake was there, there likely wouldn't be the OAK development there now.

I sure miss that Classen Circle

I spent way too much time trying to match these up with Google. Haha! These are cool! Ok, in the 5th picture (right before the current one). I assume those were the plans/renderings? I can't figure out the two skyscrapers and industrial stack.

Just think, if the lake was there, there likely wouldn't be the OAK development there now.

the OAK location is not in that picture .. the 5th picture with the plans for the buildings and the lake (and the power plant) .... is the same location as the walmart (belle isle )

the OAK location is not in that picture .. the 5th picture with the plans for the buildings and the lake (and the power plant) .... is the same location as the walmart (belle isle )

Yeah, I get the OAK isn't in that picture, hence it was in a separate paragraph. That was more referring to the fact that if those plans shown would have happened, it's very likely OAK would not have happened (at least in that location). That area would have likely been very different.

Some more cool images from the 60s, including an early plan for Belle Isle Lake.

Sure glad we dried that thing up, built a huge elevated freeway through the middle, then plopped down a Walmart Super Center.



ODOT has something on the tail-end of the 8 year plan to do something with the Belle Isle bridge. Hopefully, lower it to grade and rework the NW Expressway entrances and exits.

The original plans were not to drain Belle Isle Lake. That's why the Belle Isle bridge was built, instead of an at grade highway, because it was meant to go over the lake.

As far as PSM and tenants, you have to remember what Covid did to retail. Look no further than the once upscale mall The Shops at Willowbend in Plano, TX. We went shortly before Covid, and it wasn't 100% leased, but it was still decent and fairly upscale (anchors Crate and Barrel, Dillards, Macy's, and Nieman, etc). Now post-covid, it's declining quickly, and even the anchors are questioning if they should abandon ship. It's in dire straights, and they've had to put together a re-development plan. So, it was somewhat expected that PSM would take somewhat of a covid hit, and compared to other malls it's still doing fine. Even old stores like Abercrombie and Ann Taylor have returned.

I remember my Dad and Uncles telling stories about walking to the Belle Isle Lake from their house. It is crazy to me that we drained that. How many lakes were drained for commercial real estate in OKC back then. Shephard Mall was a lake right?

ODOT has something on the tail-end of the 8 year plan to do something with the Belle Isle bridge. Hopefully, lower it to grade and rework the NW Expressway entrances and exits.

Best case scenario is probably half of the bridge being at grade. The east end will be an overpass over Classen and the west end an overpass over the NW Expressway and drainage ditch.

Pete did 44 just end and merge into the circle?? (or was it even 44 back then)

That was still 66. 44 didn't come along until the 70's

That was still 66. 44 didn't come along until the 70's

thank you that portion was just "highway grade" for lack of a better term .. going east ?

That was still 66. 44 didn't come along until the 70's

..

If you want to see a dying mall go to Sooner Fashion Mall in Norman. I think if Old Navy moves then it's just a matter of time until Dillard's is gone. Pretty much the only two tenants that have business. Well Chick-fil-a has a ton of business I guess.

The Sears wing has been closed for a very long time. Whole thing would have to be demolished.

I can see Old Navy moving to UNP there in Norman

I was also at PSM over this last weekend and my only complaint is the escalators. The mall is still packed as it nearly always is.

I'm an unactive, lazy person, so would look forward to forced exercise by having to step up or down a stationery escalator. As much as I hate to admit it, no exercise leads to stiff muscles for older persons.

I've lived in many parts of the country and seen many malls and I used to love to go to the mall, sit in common areas and relax, hang out. I have absolutely no desire to do that in PSM. Not relaxing, not an enjoyable experience. As soon as I get in I want to get what I came for and leave. Perhaps the common walking areas between stores isn't as grand as other malls I've been and if feels tight, don't know.

I think PSM used to have a fountain until they took it out with nothing there now. I don't think that helped anything.

thank you that portion was just "highway grade" for lack of a better term .. going east ?

IIRC, there was an underpass at Western, then at-grade east from there where 44 is today.

I remember my Dad and Uncles telling stories about walking to the Belle Isle Lake from their house. It is crazy to me that we drained that. How many lakes were drained for commercial real estate in OKC back then. Shephard Mall was a lake right?

Yes, regarding Shepherd Mall, a portion of the original 160-acre, 1889 homestead of George Shepherd was a lake. The homestead was sold off in various parcels over time, with the last parcel - on which the family’s original home stood - sold after his last daughter’s death around 1970 (current location of KFC). The home was moved around, but now is located on the Harn Homestead property just south of the State Capitol.

19443

IIRC, there was an underpass at Western, then at-grade east from there where 44 is today.
Wasn’t the entire loop around OKC converted to a freeway which was considered the grand Parkway?

A strategic alliance: The merger combines JCPenney's iconic department store presence with Sparc Group's portfolio of brands, including Forever 21, Brooks Brothers, and Eddie Bauer. Simon Property Group and Brookfield, who co-own JCPenney post-bankruptcy, are major stakeholders in both entities, enabling a streamlined approach to retail operations.

https://www.credaily.com/newsletters/jcpenney-sparc-group-merge-into-9b-retail-brand/

Wasn’t the entire loop around OKC converted to a freeway which was considered the grand Parkway?

Grand Blvd was built as a loop around the city in the 1930’s but was never a freeway. A small portion of the loop parallels current freeway alignment.

https://i0.wp.com/www.rideok.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/img_dunn1910_005_fullmap.jpg?w=646&ssl=1

Grand Blvd was built as a loop around the city in the 1930’s but was never a freeway. A small portion of the loop parallels current freeway alignment.

https://i0.wp.com/www.rideok.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/img_dunn1910_005_fullmap.jpg?w=646&ssl=1

wasn't is part of the old trolley path too? I was not around back then, so i have no idea. But i remember someone saying something to that effect before.

wasn't is part of the old trolley path too? I was not around back then, so i have no idea. But i remember someone saying something to that effect before.
Not really, although an interurban line did go along NW 39th, of which a portion was aligned with the Grand Avenue loop. Here is a map of the historic streetcar alignments:

https://www.abetterlifeokc.com/clientuploads/blog/streetcarMap.jpg

The Grand Boulevard loop was definitely replaced in many areas by interstate on the same right-of-way, most notably significant parts of I-44. But it still exists in multiple locations, including near Capitol Hill, Trosper and also the zoo, but most notably Nichols Hills, where a stretch of it exists much as it was originally envisioned; as a true garden parkway.

Yes, regarding Shepherd Mall, a portion of the original 160-acre, 1889 homestead of George Shepherd was a lake. The homestead was sold off in various parcels over time, with the last parcel - on which the family’s original home stood - sold after his last daughter’s death around 1970 (current location of KFC). The home was moved around, but now is located on the Harn Homestead property just south of the State Capitol.

19443

About a decade ago I was working at a real estate agency and they were selling a home just off of Villa to the West in the Cleveland Neighborhood. They said it had a flat roof patio so that it could have a lake view. I had no idea the Harn Homestead home was moved from this location. Thanks for the info!