View Full Version : Penn Square Mall
Questor 04-07-2012, 10:43 PM Too bad they didn't stay open air and expand. Would be a gem fixed up and expanded with modern finishes and old mid century modern design.
I agree, it's an example of how sometimes we lose something of great architectural design because arguments of convenience win out.
Actually, this very thing has been on my mind a lot lately. In another thread I've been asking for some old photos of Quail Springs Mall, from back before they slapped the theater onto the front of it, because I recently learned that the architect that designed the famously-pointy Trans-America Building in San Francisco (William Pereira) also designed QSM. I just have a vague memory of what it originally looked like and am hoping someone has some old photos. I am just wondering if it might be yet another example of architecture that, one day in the not so distant future, we will all be saying to ourselves what a gem it would be if it were still around....
Larry OKC 04-07-2012, 10:56 PM Oh yes...it was open-air. Here's a picture of part of it...
http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/1377/pennsquare001.jpg
As far as your saying it's a dump, I admit to not having been in the mall for awhile so things have obviously changed.
This pic looks like a dump, NOT what it is today...how many "dumps" have an Apple store?
MikeOKC 04-07-2012, 11:11 PM Oh, Larry. I always thought I was cynical. The pic is a sixties picture that doesn't have the vivid colors that better photography might, but the colorful flowers, greenery, trees in and around the property - I remember. It was a nice place and if built today would be considered contemporary.
Now I agree that the last time I was in Penn Square it was far from a dump, and I've always loved the mall - but there's no reason to call a place that was a big part of a lot of our childhoods a "dump," because it wasn't. Yeah, I wish I had a better picture, but some here never knew its history and can appreciate that it's a place that could still be nice as what goes around sometimes comes around again - like these outdoor centers. That's all I was saying.
I was there on Friday and the only thing I recall being "dumpy" about it was some of the people in there, but that's it.
ljbab728 04-08-2012, 02:08 AM I was there on Friday and the only thing I recall being "dumpy" about it was some of the people in there, but that's it.
You're right, MDot. There is absolutely nothing dumpy about the physical structure or ambience in Penn Square. I got wet because it was raining when I walked into the mall so I may have looked a little dumpy though. LOL
Spartan 04-08-2012, 05:48 AM I don't know how you can say it's on the decline when it's 100% leased and has a waiting list of over 65 major national retailers and 50 local upscale retailers, with Nordstrom and Saks both interested in occupying anchor space if a new northwest wing is indeed built. The problem is that these retailers want a certain sized space, so they sometimes have to wait for other leases to open up so they can get the space they want. That's been the case with Forever 21. Yeah, there are about 3 or 4 short term leases, but that's the case in any mall across the country. They keep the space filled with short term leases until they find a long term tenant. And some of the spaces, like the old Rockport, for example, and the space occupied by "Honey's, Handbags, and More," are hard to lease due to their small size. Forever 21 has been on the waiting list forever (no pun intended), because they wanted a flagship store in that mall and had to wait for some leases to expire on existing tenants. Malls will never have 100% long term leases. Never have, never will, just because of the different sizes of spaces that open up and what a specific retailer's actual needs are.
I think it goes way beyond "Honey's, Handbags and More." That particular store isn't even listed. Here are some that are:
A Pea In The Pod
Akoo Pavilion
Apricot Lane
AT&T
Backstop, The
Bare Escentuals
Body Central
Body Shop, The
Cache
Campus Ragz
Claire's Accessories
CNS Jewelry & Watch Repair
Designs Place
Dial N Style/Cell King
Elegant Nails
Francesca's Collections
Game Stop
Hallmark
Hot Topic
Icing by Claire's
Jason White's Store Divided
JCPenney
Journeys
Journeys Kidz
Justice
I'll stop at the J's. These tenants are all the anti-thesis to upscale. However, I will say that I understand a lot of these are grandfathered tenants that the mall is waiting for their lease to expire--and if they have a new wing planned that really does have interest from those kinds of retailers, then good for Penn Square and OKC.
But I think right now, to call Penn Square "upscale" by any stretch of the imagination is absurd.
ljbab728 04-08-2012, 09:37 AM But I think right now, to call Penn Square "upscale" by any stretch of the imagination is absurd.
Just as calling Penn Square a dump is absurd.
BBatesokc 04-08-2012, 09:51 AM Just as calling Penn Square a dump is absurd.
I agree. The only way one could draw that conclusion is because they are either blinded by bias, are extremely arrogant, or think any mall that is not end-to-end over the top expensive retailers is a 'dump.'
Honestly, I don't buy $200 dress shirts or the latest overpriced fashion fad. If that's what Penn Square Mall became then they'd lose me as a shopper. As it is now I don't go often (not a big mall fan) but I do go because of the variety. Their is higher end if my needs/wants require it and there is lower end when that suits the shopping situation.
Its conveniently located, large, parking is abundant, its clean, safe, up-to-date and has a good mix of tenants. Exactly where does that qualify it as a dump?
Spartan 04-08-2012, 10:49 AM This thread has mostly been an exercise of failure in context. I used overly strong language, granted, but my "Penn Square is a dump" retort was mostly in response to praise for Penn Square. This is what we Okies do, we like to delude ourselves into thinking Penn Square is the Galleria de la Oklahoma and the grandest, fanciest mall that exists. It's probably an average mall by most standards. It is so successful economically because developers and mall owners (such as Simon) have figured out that they can invest very little into a property in OKC and still have a controlling market share and enjoy next to zero real competition.
I like to think that OKC is home of slightly more discerning shoppers than the Grand Forks, ND Olive Garden columnist mindset ("This is the nicest restaurant in our city.") Yes, parking is abundant, shootings and gang violence are infrequent compared to Quail Springs, and the tenant mix is barely acceptable. But for being "OKC's premier retail destination" (nobody can really argue otherwise), within THAT strict context, yes it's a dump. And it's days are probably more limited than any of us would imagine, or than I would care to guess. It's an indoor mall, and it's ownership is pretty content with things the way they are--it won't take much to create the next-greatest-ever "OKC's premier retail destination," and I would say CHK is already well on their way.
soonerliberal 04-08-2012, 01:42 PM This thread has mostly been an exercise of failure in context. I used overly strong language, granted, but my "Penn Square is a dump" retort was mostly in response to praise for Penn Square. This is what we Okies do, we like to delude ourselves into thinking Penn Square is the Galleria de la Oklahoma and the grandest, fanciest mall that exists. It's probably an average mall by most standards. It is so successful economically because developers and mall owners (such as Simon) have figured out that they can invest very little into a property in OKC and still have a controlling market share and enjoy next to zero real competition.
Precisely.
Many Oklahomans need to get out of the city more often to see what other places have to offer before claiming a very average mall is a premier shopping destination. It may be the premier place to shop when you compare it to Crossroads Mall, but if you compare it to the top three shopping malls in Dallas, Denver, or any other major city, it is very average to low-average.
Soonerman 04-08-2012, 01:49 PM Park Meadows in Denver is the nicest mall I've been to.
Architect2010 04-08-2012, 02:09 PM Spartan. You were wrong for presuming that all of us liken Penn Square to a Galleria, somehow falsely justifying a STUPID and biased generalization that it's somehow a dump. I think we all agree that Penn Square Mall isn't a exactly the most renowned of places, but it's nice, modern, and more successful than any other in Oklahoma. Funny when everyone disagree's with your little rant, you decide to somehow blame it on an assumption of yours that you must have pulled right out of thin air. I think the distinction between a Galleria and Penn is clear to all but only the most polarized of opinions...
BBatesokc 04-08-2012, 02:10 PM Spartan. You were wrong for presuming that all of us liken Penn Square to a Galleria, somehow falsely justifying a STUPID and biased generalization that it's somehow a dump. I think we all agree that Penn Square Mall isn't a exactly the most renowned of places, but it's nice, modern, and more successful than any other in Oklahoma. Funny when everyone disagree's with your little rant, you decide to somehow blame it on an assumption of yours that you must have pulled right out of thin air. I think the distinction between a Galleria and Penn is clear to all but only the most polarized of opinions...
+1
Spartan 04-08-2012, 02:32 PM Spartan. You were wrong for presuming that all of us liken Penn Square to a Galleria, somehow falsely justifying a STUPID and biased generalization that it's somehow a dump. I think we all agree that Penn Square Mall isn't a exactly the most renowned of places, but it's nice, modern, and more successful than any other in Oklahoma. Funny when everyone disagree's with your little rant, you decide to somehow blame it on an assumption of yours that you must have pulled right out of thin air. I think the distinction between a Galleria and Penn is clear to all but only the most polarized of opinions...
Ironically, this is a pretty polarized opinion, replete with stupid in capital letters, your little rant, you were wrong, falsely justifying, biased, everyone disagrees, you pulled this out of thin air... Why do things always have to be personal with you? My god.
Topically, I'll just add that I think some individuals in this thread seriously underestimate the mass idolation of Penn Square. I think it's even reared its head in this thread, although perhaps the individuals expressing (who knows?) anger toward my post are probably split on whether the mall itself is a nice mall. Notice the automatic assumption that the mall is doing well, backed up by the fact that well, it has an Apple store--obviously it is a nice mall.
This is going to sound elitist, which I'm okay with only because I feel like I have a pre-established reputation for fighting elitists and sophists, but any discussion revolving around Penn Square begins and ends in my mind with the fact that half of those tenants do not belong in a mall that purports to be upscale. And even though most rational people around town do not identify Penn Square as an upscale shopping destination, albeit our city's premier shopping destination, I'd love to see someone argue that isn't at all how the mall markets itself.
How many pages of threads do we have on here full of baseless attacks against a local business for a cheesy marketing campaign? This forum membership takes PR-conscious to the extreme sometimes. Here you have a collection of shameless national retailers, shameless out of town property owners, and a dead concept to boot--all getting away with murder in terms of PR and in damage to OKC's retail scene. The sooner all of these malls go away, the better. Crossroads' demise, for example, is an amazing opportunity to grow organic, neighborhood retail IF the city and developers will stop sitting around and take advantage of it.
I'll throw in a bonus:
Let me outline what is probably going to happen in the future, if Penn Square Mall expansion really is on the table, and especially if the aforementioned tenants really are interested (read: this is if Penn Square has their druthers in these matters). Subsidies. The city is going to be hit up for a TIF deal at least as good as the outlet mall's, if not more lucrative. Then on top of that, we will be hit up for subsidies by any anchor tenant that would consider going in there because they will quickly realize that the mall's "destination" is pretty far out of line with their target location. We will be hit up for the kinds of subsidies that wouldn't be a concern in trendier, higher-end developments like the CHK area.
So then we will have also eviscerated the small window of opportunity that we had with downtown retail. When the ULI came to town and informed us just how much of a subsidy it would cost for an upscale retail anchor like Saks, people balked (ironically, we put up $17 mil for Bass Pro, nobody balked at that). Penn Square will hold its status as the city's long-established premier retail destination over our head, and in the end of this fight that they may cook up to remain competitive with CHK (and this is a big IF), we will have spent at least as much on subsidizing a Saks and we will have no downtown retail to speak of, but instead, we will be the only city in the world that is putting all of its eggs in an extremely outmoded and antiquated basket--an auto-dependent indoor suburban-style shopping mall.
No personal attacks. I also like to think that while I have pretty clear preferences and you guys can normally guess where I'll come down on issues, that I'm not biased, prejudiced, anything else you may come up with, and that I didn't pull any of this out of thin air. Just a guy expressing his concerns.
Spartan 04-08-2012, 02:40 PM By "on a roll," I think they mean Penn Square is doing really well. I've heard, and I believe Patrick has said, that Penn Square has a mega-long waiting list. It really is one of the nicest old-style malls around.
Also, this is not a personal attack either. Mike makes good posts almost always, and has even been quite informative in this thread. But I have quoted this as an example of some of the Penn Square praise that dominates the conversation any time our city's premier retail destination is brought up.
I think the accusation that I pulled something out of thin air... was pulled out of thin air, if anything.
metro 04-08-2012, 03:52 PM I think it goes way beyond "Honey's, Handbags and More." That particular store isn't even listed. Here are some that are:
A Pea In The Pod
Akoo Pavilion
Apricot Lane
AT&T
Backstop, The
Bare Escentuals
Body Central
Body Shop, The
Cache
Campus Ragz
Claire's Accessories
CNS Jewelry & Watch Repair
Designs Place
Dial N Style/Cell King
Elegant Nails
Francesca's Collections
Game Stop
Hallmark
Hot Topic
Icing by Claire's
Jason White's Store Divided
JCPenney
Journeys
Journeys Kidz
Justice
I'll stop at the J's. These tenants are all the anti-thesis to upscale. However, I will say that I understand a lot of these are grandfathered tenants that the mall is waiting for their lease to expire--and if they have a new wing planned that really does have interest from those kinds of retailers, then good for Penn Square and OKC.
But I think right now, to call Penn Square "upscale" by any stretch of the imagination is absurd.
Your out of touch again. Several of those are upscale women's retailers, especially Apricot Lane (a national chain).
metro 04-08-2012, 03:57 PM Spartan. You were wrong for presuming that all of us liken Penn Square to a Galleria, somehow falsely justifying a STUPID and biased generalization that it's somehow a dump. I think we all agree that Penn Square Mall isn't a exactly the most renowned of places, but it's nice, modern, and more successful than any other in Oklahoma. Funny when everyone disagree's with your little rant, you decide to somehow blame it on an assumption of yours that you must have pulled right out of thin air. I think the distinction between a Galleria and Penn is clear to all but only the most polarized of opinions...
Well said. Spartan is proving himself more out of touch wih reality with each post. He assumes no one but him travels. No one says it's north park or galleria in Dallas yet he is the one doing the judging.
GaryOKC6 04-08-2012, 04:53 PM Well said. Spartan is proving himself more out of touch wih reality with each post. He assumes no one but him travels. No one says it's north park or galleria in Dallas yet he is the one doing the judging.
+1
Spartan 04-08-2012, 05:38 PM Well said. Spartan is proving himself more out of touch wih reality with each post. He assumes no one but him travels. No one says it's north park or galleria in Dallas yet he is the one doing the judging.
Then what if I told you that Penn Square was a giant liberal conspiracy being perpetrated by the U.N.? :-P
But seriously, you guys' inability to address the factual content of my posts is beginning to irk me. It seems like once again I have struck a nerve. Also, these threads do NOT need to become about me. I hate it when people do that, fine make the thread about refuting a comment I made, but I don't see where this calls for anything personal. If I want to be personal friends, or personally acknowledge some of you, trust me I'll let you know. There are a lot of people on this forum that I am well-acquainted with.
We have these de-personalized little graphics to the side of our screen name, above each post. That is my representation of me as a person to you, unless I give you otherwise. Think of me as a robot that doesn't want to personally associate with others, if that helps. A big, evil U.N. conspiracy robot...
That absolutely goes for you too, Newlon. If I want to personally relate with you, I'll let you know. As for my post content, that's all entirely fair game. Call me out on facts if you have them. I'm more than happy to talk ideas and issues with you, since sometimes you do have good fact-based posts.
bombermwc 04-09-2012, 08:14 AM Like usual, Spartan is off base...100%.
FYI - Penn Square is also the most profitable mall per square foot, in the entire U.S. So if you think it's going anywhere any time soon, you're nuts. On top of that, the expansion plans they have will SIGNIFICANTLY increase their square footage and add more box space. So if anything, they're are gonig to be doing even better soon. If they had the land, they'd qualify for Galleria size status. They simply can't squeeze enough parking garage in to make it happen on that land footprint and they're boxed in.
And if you dont' consider it upscale, fine, thats an opinion. I don't personaly consider it upscale if you're comparing it something like what 50 Penn USED to be. Do I care though? Not in the least bit. It's a nice mall and you can't argue against that. It's got nice stores in it and the environment is nice. What more do you need?
Spartan 04-09-2012, 10:33 AM Like usual, Spartan is off base...100%.
FYI - Penn Square is also the most profitable mall per square foot, in the entire U.S. So if you think it's going anywhere any time soon, you're nuts. On top of that, the expansion plans they have will SIGNIFICANTLY increase their square footage and add more box space. So if anything, they're are gonig to be doing even better soon. If they had the land, they'd qualify for Galleria size status. They simply can't squeeze enough parking garage in to make it happen on that land footprint and they're boxed in.
And if you dont' consider it upscale, fine, thats an opinion. I don't personaly consider it upscale if you're comparing it something like what 50 Penn USED to be. Do I care though? Not in the least bit. It's a nice mall and you can't argue against that. It's got nice stores in it and the environment is nice. What more do you need?
Wow, imagine that, a few more ad hominems directed at me. I must say it's ironic as hell to be called off base by people such as metro and bomber, for whom, all it takes is one or two other posts disagreeing with me to jump on board and make it look like a flame war.
It's not a nice mall, and I think I can argue against that. IF they had the land they'd be a Galleria?
Metro, I hope you read that and it registered in the same place in your mind where you were convinced nobody is proclaiming Penn Square's greatness. And it's hardly the only example in this thread of delusions of Penn Square grandeur.
Can you prove that it's the most profitable mall in the U.S. by square foot? Not that it matters, because we've already established the reason for that...
Notice the automatic assumption that the mall is doing well,
That's not an assumption. It does do very well. A mall doesn't have to be upscale to do well and, in fact, is probably one reason why it has been successful. The real problem is that it does so well, it has to pay for all of Simon's malls that don't do well. If Simon was free of debt and able to expand it, they would probably do well with that too and would probably even get more tenants that meet your standards. I don't care for Penn Square mall, first and foremost simply because it's a mall, but one can not deny it does very well. These days, you can't say that any mall that is 99% leased isn't doing well.
Bunty 04-09-2012, 12:44 PM It's not a dump.
Spartan has simply been spoiled rotten by exploring actual upscale cities and neighborhoods out of state. Penn Square is really a nice mall for Oklahoma City. To deny it's nice, you might as well deny that Oklahoma City in a nice city.
MikeLucky 04-09-2012, 01:52 PM First off... calling Penn Square a dump, is just stupid. Not, misinformed... not, hyperbolic... Stupid.
Secondly, WTF would we do with a Galleria here anyway? I go to the Galleria in Dallas every now and again as a novelty thing... but I sure as hell don't need to buy anything there. In fact, I RARELY go to Penn Square and I live here.
Penn Square is about as upscale as we probably need here. And that's not just me being small minded or anything like that. It's just that the people that live in OKC and can afford $300 shirts and $600 dresses, already have local places to achieve that... the last thing we NEED is for it to be in a mall just so some elitists that don't even live here can feel like OKC can suddenly feel validated.
Plus, I will say this... I currently make a bit over twice the median income here in Oklahoma and I can live like a KING here. How is that wrong, somehow? Part of why that's true is because we DON'T need some super upscale mall to buy a bunch of crap that serves little other than to impress people that are impressed with such vapid endeavors.
It's just that the people that live in OKC and can afford $300 shirts and $600 dresses, already have local places to achieve that... the last thing we NEED is for it to be in a mall just so some elitists that don't even live here can feel like OKC can suddenly feel validated.
I agree. I would actually rather see more money spent at local stores than at a Nordstrom's anyway. The only problem is that there isn't a single source of shopping area for those local stores and so people still feel there is a limited selection here and take their money to Dallas, Chicago, Vegas, etc. for the high end stuff.
soonerliberal 04-09-2012, 02:48 PM This is really confusing. In one thread, I see cries and hopes that we will get stores like Urban Outfitters, Container Store, or a department store like Nordstrom. In this thread, I see people outwardly attacking because someone is making a hyperbolic argument that what we have is simply not good enough.
You can't say we need these stores in one hand and then say what we have is just peachy in another and be consistent in your argument. Just because a mall is financially successful does not mean it is of the quality we want. If that were the case, then the incredibly successful outlet malls would be the top of the line.
Regardless, I am of the opinion that Penn Square is a decent mid-grade mall. I am also of the opinion that while OKC's demographic data isn't as kind to stores that you see in cities of comparable size, we are blessed with a low cost of living, which in turn means there is a decent amount of disposable income. I truly believe that OKC could sustain a mid-high department store such as Nordstrom or Bloomingdales. However, I don't think we would be able to sustain a higher end store like Barney's or Nieman Marcus. We also obviously sustain many stores in OKC (J-Crew or Banana Republic) have that have a similar price point of stores we do not have like Diesel, Armani Exchange, Benetton, Lacoste, or even Brooks Brothers. However, many of those stores require certain other stores to be present or they need persuasion or incentives to come to the mall and city for that matter.
This is really confusing. In one thread, I see cries and hopes that we will get stores like Urban Outfitters, Container Store, or a department store like Nordstrom.
I know I am in the minority in OKC, but an UO or Container Store will not change my life or opinion of the city in any way. I honestly don't think those stores offer much in terms of value or validation. If we developed a strong consolidated retail district dominated by local retailers selling fashionable goods, then I'd be impressed.
Spartan 04-09-2012, 04:16 PM I give up. People on this forum just want in-fighting and insults, not discussion on actual issues and facts.
BBatesokc 04-09-2012, 04:22 PM I give up. People on this forum just want in-fighting and insults, not discussion on actual issues and facts.
Like your absurdly forwarded 'fact' that Penn Square is a "dump"?
Spartan 04-09-2012, 04:51 PM Which is closer to reality than other people's understanding of what Penn Square is.
I already said it was intended as hyperbole. But you guys refusal to acknowledge anything wrong with that mall or any mall.....
Questor 04-09-2012, 08:28 PM Reading this thread is kind of interesting... you know really each of us has a small piece of the puzzle in our own ways. I think it's a valid point that Penn Square is a successful and relatively nice looking mall, and can be considered fairly upscale for Oklahoma. I also think that it is a valid point that, compared to most major metropolitan areas or even smaller cities that for various reasons simply have a wider base of wealthy clientele, that Penn Square isn't really operating anywhere near that level of sophistication.
It is interesting that so many posts are comparing/contrasting Penn Square with The Galleria in Dallas, because I really don't consider that mall upscale. I think it is very voluminous, and it does contain a Versache and a few other stores you don't normally see, but it's more of a tourist trap than anything else. So it makes me wonder if maybe this whole thread is a big misunderstanding. That's certainly possible when we are all just throwing our own opinions around.
I guess when I think of an upscale mall, the closest thing to this that we have within 500 miles in my opinion is probably NorthPark Center. If you're not familiar with it, it's in Dallas off of the Central Expressway, sort of in the "old money" area of University Park. The place is just phenomenal looking... the landscaping is perfect outside, and inside the place has sort of a modernist feel and is full of artwork. Here are some photos:
1199
1198
1197
The store directory is also equally impressive:
http://www.northparkcenter.com/storedirectory_cat.php
There are stores in that list that we could only hope to get one day. The really shocking thing is that, for as impressive as that mall is to me an Oklahoman, after traveling some I have come to realize why so many on the East and West Coast knock Dallas retail... as far as 'upscale' goes, whatever that means, Dallas is just sort of at the very beginning rung with many of its top malls. It is really bewildering to see what all is out there and realize how vast the differences in malls and offerings can be.
I think it is selling ourselves short to think that we couldn't support at least one truly upscale offering somewhere in this state. Now I don't think we could do anything nearly as expansive as what is seen elsewhere, we just don't have the population to support it, but to think that this city doesn't have the people who have the means to and want to shop at some of these stores, I just don't think that is accurate at all. For years OKC was and I think still is at the top of the list of cities doing large amounts of catalog and internet sales from Neimann-Marcus. If you look at the number of extremely wealthy people we have living here from the oil and gas business, or just people making very good livings into the hundreds of thousands of dollars in that industry and several others, I know the customer base is there.
Now whether or not wanting these items is a vapid pursuit of materialism is something that must be decided by each individual. It's a free world and people can believe what they want. But for those who don't agree with that sentiment and have the money and wherewithal to shop at an upscale retailer, it would be nice if there were more options in the OKC metro. Or if an average Joe wants to go to a place like this and splurge big bucks on one really nice suit jacket why not? Lots of people fall into that realm.
I guess what I take away from all of this is that of the average class of malls Penn Square is definitely upscale and one of the best malls in the state (although I think Woodland Hills edges it out slightly... just personal preference... they have a few more stores there than what we have available here). But if we're talking about the next tier up from there, whatever you want to call that, Penn Square just isn't part of that class of mall.
Questor 04-09-2012, 08:34 PM Here are some additional pictures of NorthPark Center:
http://www.northparkcenter.com/experience/index.html
I agree with virtually every statement Questor has made.
I don't think the Galleria is nearly on par with NorthPark. Likewise, I prefer the design of Woodland Hills to Penn Square perhaps because it was built from the gorund up rather than as a redevelopment of a redevelopment of an existing property that I wish could have been left alone. (Thanks Mike OKC for the picture of the original shopping center!) I prefer Penn Square to Quail Springs and am glad to see the store changes that have evolved over time.
bombermwc 04-10-2012, 11:46 AM For what it's worth, i never said Galleria was upscale....it's just a size comparison.
Spartan, how interesting how so many people disagree and you decide to just abandon your comments rather than give any details to support them. When you and I disagree, at least i'll make the good fight to support my arguement.
You'll also find Woodland Hills and Quail decorated in almost the same exact manner. So if you're comparing the structures, you're really on level ground. If you're comparing the stores inside the mall, they're still pretty equal. Now, how the mall is doing from the corporate side is totally different. Penn has been around for a long time, in its various forms. With that, you're limited in how "cool" the design on the place because of structural elements. So no, it's not the most architecturally interesting places you'll see but come on. Since when did that define how well a mall does?
MikeOKC 04-10-2012, 06:54 PM The Houston Galleria - now there's an 'upscale' mall. I love that place. I did a search to post a picture and ran into several Forbes stories on malls around the world. On their "World's Best Malls" (http://www.forbes.com/2008/08/01/best-malls-worldwide-forbeslife-cx_ls_0801style_slide.html) list were ten malls and only three were in the United States: The Galleria in Houston, Bellagio in Vegas, and The Shops at Columbus Circle in NYC.
How about largest malls? Here's a list of ten (http://www.latesttopten.com/top-10-modern-largest-shopping-malls-in-the-world) and none of them are in the USA. Some of them could better be called a mini-cities.
I just realized I forgot to do what I set out to do - grab some pics of Houston's Galleria. But it's on that first list and you can always go to their website. It's a stunner of a place and is mixed-use with hotels, condos, office towers and almost 400 stores.
Description of The Galleria in Houston from Simon:
With its stunning architecture, exceptional store mix and distinctive style of entertainment, The Galleria has established itself as the #1 shopping and tourist destination in Houston with over 24 million annual visitors.
Set beneath spectacular glass atriums, The Galleria features more than 375 fine stores and restaurants, an impressive ice rink and two Westin hotels. This world-class shopping complex showcases the best names in retailing including Neiman Marcus, Cartier, Gucci, Tiffany & Co., Saks Fifth Avenue, Macy's, Ralph Lauren Collection, Louis Vuitton, Chanel, and Nordstrom.
With the expansion that opened in March 2003, The Galleria became the fourth largest mall in the nation highlighted by nine types of stone, suspended glass balconies, three types of wood, glass skylights, and plush leather seating. With three office towers, two hotels, 2.4 million square feet of retail space, and a variety of restaurants, The Galleria is a city within a city.
I think this entire debate is stupid and have had a good laugh reading all of the childish bickering......anyway, with that out of the way. Anyone who thinks the Galleria is somehow superior to NorthPark Center is just wrong (IMHO of course :wink: ). Northpark is on a whole other level than the Galleria. It's not some silly MEGA mall with gimicks and a hotel for tourists. It's an institution, with a first rate art collection, a garden, and an extremely upscale portfolio of tenants, not to mention a great selection of more mid range major brands. It's not just an upscale mall, it's like legitimately and truly quite beautiful in parts. And besides, the Talking Heads filmed True Stories there..... Now, wasn't this thread suposed to be about changes in the lineup at Penn Square Mall???
Bunty 04-11-2012, 01:22 AM I think this entire debate is stupid and have had a good laugh reading all of the childish bickering......anyway, with that out of the way. Anyone who thinks the Galleria is somehow superior to NorthPark Center is just wrong (IMHO of course :wink: ). Northpark is on a whole other level than the Galleria. It's not some silly MEGA mall with gimicks and a hotel for tourists. It's an institution, with a first rate art collection, a garden, and an extremely upscale portfolio of tenants, not to mention a great selection of more mid range major brands. It's not just an upscale mall, it's like legitimately and truly quite beautiful in parts. And besides, the Talking Heads filmed True Stories there.
If NorthPark Center is this wonderful upscale mall, then why the hell is the Gap in it?
If NorthPark Center is this wonderful upscale mall, then why the hell is the Gap in it?
HAHAHAHAHAHA the Galleria has a Gap too...as do the Forum Shoppes at Ceaser's Palace, as does Newbury St in Boston, as does Rodeo Drive in Beverly Hills, as does 5th Ave in New York, as does Michigan Ave in Chicago, getting the idea here? I'm pretty sure that was a dab of sarcasm though.
But really NorthPark has a Gap (and tons of other lower end stores) because it is a great and fully functional retail center. WAY too many people on this board think things need to be all one thing or another. The beauty of a thing like Northpark is that it is organic and really functional for it's community. The thing is, that an upscale mall that ONLY has high end retailers in it is a useless as one that only has low end tenants. A retail complex the size of a shopping mall needs a healthy diversity and needs to offer things to both a slightly lower income customer as well as slightly lower end goods to an "upscale" customers (the extravagantly wealthy don't always buy 100% ludicrously high priced merchandise, many very wealthy women still buy cheap Vnecks at the Gap and have teenage kids that want band Tshirts from Hot Topic or Urban Outfitters). The lesson that should be learned from Northpark Center is that a mall can be upscale without making it sterile and uninviting, without making it exclusionary. I think Penn Square is a pretty great Mid market mall that is organically becoming a more upscale mall. That is EXACTLY what this city needs, a shopping center that becomes more upscale at the same pace the community around it is.
bombermwc 04-11-2012, 07:39 AM Hahahaha bunty!!!
Spartan 04-11-2012, 11:12 AM For what it's worth, i never said Galleria was upscale....it's just a size comparison.
Spartan, how interesting how so many people disagree and you decide to just abandon your comments rather than give any details to support them. When you and I disagree, at least i'll make the good fight to support my arguement.
Huh??
Patrick 04-16-2012, 11:04 AM WOW! This thread went way off course. Anyways, since I started it, I'll end with this. Penn Square is a nice mid-level mall. I don't think anyone here ever tried to say it could be compared to Northpark Center or The Houston Galleria. No comparison. So, to make such comparisons is foolish. And, due to demographics and land restrictions, I don't think you're going to see Penn Square move into that league. Those are much larger cities with lots more money. Even expansion plans at Penn Square may not happen, because, from what I've heard, the Whileman-Belle Isle Neighborhood Association isn't too hip on the expansion because of increased traffic in the area. We'll just have to wait and see what happens.
And I don't really consider stores like UO, The Container Store, Crate and Barrell, super upperscale. I mean, they're quality mid to upscale national retailers, but that's about it. But, I don't think most of us here are expecting Penn Square to become anything comparable to Northpark Center. Heck, I'd be happy with an addition of a Nordstrom, and another wing for mid to upscale retailers.
OKCTalker 04-16-2012, 09:36 PM It's not Rodeo Drive so it's a dump. Or - is RODEO DRIVE a dump too?
ljbab728 04-16-2012, 11:38 PM It's not Rodeo Drive so it's a dump. Or - is RODEO DRIVE a dump too?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3zShjyaTr8
Larry OKC 04-17-2012, 02:28 PM It's not Rodeo Drive so it's a dump. Or - is RODEO DRIVE a dump too?
Depends if it is the California pronunciation (row-DAY-oh) or Okie (road-EEE-oh)
MikeOKC 04-17-2012, 02:41 PM Hasn't Spartan, himself, already admitted he was being hyperbolic? Penn Square is a nice mall - no question about it. It shouldn't be compared to tier-one malls. This is getting a bit old.
proud2Bsooner 04-17-2012, 04:52 PM Sorry, but it doesn't read like a hyperbole, particularly when he cites his examples of "dumpiness".
My two cents...I can remember going to PSM as a kid in the summer, when it was an outdoor mall, and although outdoor malls are all the rage now, I specifically remember hating it. The sun would kill you. I think the same way in regards to the outlet mall, even with the lousy canopies. It's Oklahoma for heaven's sake! And yes, I agree that PSM is a nice mall. "Upscale" is such a tired word on OKCTalk, regularly used by wannabees. Malls are for the masses, and they have to have a level of economic variety to survive in good times and bad. I'll cite 50 Penn as an example.
Hasn't Spartan, himself, already admitted he was being hyperbolic? Penn Square is a nice mall - no question about it. It shouldn't be compared to tier-one malls. This is getting a bit old.
I agree. Be happy with the store lineup currently at Penn and be excited about potential changes that could be in the works. Time to move on.
ShiroiHikari 04-17-2012, 06:52 PM How come everyone always speaks in such black-and-white terms? Penn Square isn't upscale, but it isn't a dump either...
The departure of Pottery Barn Kids doesn't seem like too much of a loss to me-- probably not too many folks around these parts willing to spend that kind of money on furniture they'll have to get rid of in five years.
betts 04-18-2012, 09:18 AM This thread has mostly been an exercise of failure in context. I used overly strong language, granted, but my "Penn Square is a dump" retort was mostly in response to praise for Penn Square. This is what we Okies do, we like to delude ourselves into thinking Penn Square is the Galleria de la Oklahoma and the grandest, fanciest mall that exists. It's probably an average mall by most standards. It is so successful economically because developers and mall owners (such as Simon) have figured out that they can invest very little into a property in OKC and still have a controlling market share and enjoy next to zero real competition.
I like to think that OKC is home of slightly more discerning shoppers than the Grand Forks, ND Olive Garden columnist mindset ("This is the nicest restaurant in our city.") Yes, parking is abundant, shootings and gang violence are infrequent compared to Quail Springs, and the tenant mix is barely acceptable. But for being "OKC's premier retail destination" (nobody can really argue otherwise), within THAT strict context, yes it's a dump. And it's days are probably more limited than any of us would imagine, or than I would care to guess. It's an indoor mall, and it's ownership is pretty content with things the way they are--it won't take much to create the next-greatest-ever "OKC's premier retail destination," and I would say CHK is already well on their way.
Isn't that a rather elitist comment? Shouldn't we have shopping for the masses? Should we economically exclude people from shopping at our most desirable mall? Or should we relegate them to even dumpier dumps because they don't happen to have enough money for upscale shopping? .....just sayin....
Most of the upscale shopping I've seen in other cities is not in malls. Dallas doesn't count because they haven't learned how to be truly urban yet.
OklahomaNick 04-18-2012, 11:15 AM I have a feeling that all the people that are blasting Penn Square Mall are exactly the ones that do not shop there, and are the ones that probably stick to ROSS and TJ MAXX.
Penn is a really nice mall, and not just by Oklahoma standards! Sometimes I just don't understand all the complaining I see on OKCtalk these days! It seems like 75% of all posts are negative! You would have thought this was Detroit! Come on people.. be positive today!
Lafferty Daniel 04-19-2012, 10:49 AM I have a feeling that all the people that are blasting Penn Square Mall are exactly the ones that do not shop there, and are the ones that probably stick to ROSS and TJ MAXX.
Penn is a really nice mall, and not just by Oklahoma standards! Sometimes I just don't understand all the complaining I see on OKCtalk these days! It seems like 75% of all posts are negative! You would have thought this was Detroit! Come on people.. be positive today!
75% of the posts might be negative, but it's about 2% of the posters that are making those...
It would serve this board well to perma-ban a few people. Then threads like this wouldn't happen nearly as often. But hey, a guy can dream right?
soonerliberal 04-19-2012, 11:17 AM Penn is a really nice mall, and not just by Oklahoma standards! Sometimes I just don't understand all the complaining I see on OKCtalk these days! It seems like 75% of all posts are negative! You would have thought this was Detroit! Come on people.. be positive today!
What standards would you say makes Penn a "really nice mall". Granted it is pretty decent and is really nice as compared to other malls in the metro area, but when you compare it to what constitutes a "really nice mall" in most cities, it doesn't pass the smell test.
Penn is supposed to be the top mall in OKC. When you compare it to top malls in metro areas of a comparable size, it does not contain the same quality of merchants that the majority of those malls have. Yes, there are some nice stores. Yes, it is a decent mall and the best one in OKC. But no, it is not a "really nice mall" when you look outside of Oklahoma standards.
I think the point that most are missing is that we shouldn't to continue to settle for mediocrity when there is potential for excellence. Rather than being defensive, why not think about some solutions to the situation?
OklahomaNick 04-19-2012, 11:38 AM What standards would you say makes Penn a "really nice mall". Granted it is pretty decent and is really nice as compared to other malls in the metro area, but when you compare it to what constitutes a "really nice mall" in most cities, it doesn't pass the smell test.
Penn is supposed to be the top mall in OKC. When you compare it to top malls in metro areas of a comparable size, it does not contain the same quality of merchants that the majority of those malls have. Yes, there are some nice stores. Yes, it is a decent mall and the best one in OKC. But no, it is not a "really nice mall" when you look outside of Oklahoma standards.
I think the point that most are missing is that we shouldn't to continue to settle for mediocrity when there is potential for excellence. Rather than being defensive, why not think about some solutions to the situation?
I am still just struggling to come to grips with what everyone on here is defining as a "really nice mall!"
What do you want? Gucci, Prada, Louis Vuitton? Is that what defines a nice mall? What quality merchants would you want?
I have been to malls all over the country: King of Prussia in Philadelphia, Lakewood in Cleveland, All the Dallas malls (Galleria, NorthPark Etc.), All the major malls in Atlanta and Boston, The Metro Center in DC etc. and they are not any "nicer" than Penn Square. They may have Gucci, and all those other stores where you can buy a wallet for $1500, but other than that they all have the same stores that Penn has: Express, Apple, J.Crew, GAP, Pottery Barn, etc.
I have zero stake in Penn Square. In fact I try to avoid it at Christmas! Penn is not an upscale mall, but it is definitely upper middle scale, but most people on here are treating it like its Crossroads! I'm baffled
50 Penn, I believe, has the opportunity to bring in some upper scale clients.. Maybe that could be their niche
Midtowner 04-19-2012, 12:37 PM I have a feeling that all the people that are blasting Penn Square Mall are exactly the ones that do not shop there, and are the ones that probably stick to ROSS and TJ MAXX.
Penn is a really nice mall, and not just by Oklahoma standards! Sometimes I just don't understand all the complaining I see on OKCtalk these days! It seems like 75% of all posts are negative! You would have thought this was Detroit! Come on people.. be positive today!
Most of the folks complaining either have no frame of reference or have ridiculous expectations for this market. These are the same people who think OKC could support an NFL and NBA franchise at the same time.
Penn is a pretty good mall. When I need clothing, aside from my suits, which I buy exclusively from Tom James, Penn offers a great mix of selection and if you look you can usually find what you need on sale somewhere.
I think the store mix at Penn Square is great and like the way it seems to be evolving. I am glad the gym is going or gone. I recall trying to make a purchase in Pottery Barn Kids with extreme pounding sounds and shaking from above.
It is the mall design and layout that I don't particularly like, even though I know how the mall has been redeveloped over time. I don't like having to go to two Dillards whenever we shop as a couple. I wonder why the former Montgomery Ward building faacade was never fully updated. Ownership? And, I have never understand why when being built, it was acceptable to have the mis-matched brick toward the top of the J C Penney building, south side.
Larry OKC 04-19-2012, 02:05 PM The split Dillards is problematic to me too but it wasn't designed to be that way. The JCPenney thing is odd too since it was the relative recent expansion of the mall. Can only guess that someone screwed up on the number of bricks needed and they didn't discover it until the other was up so when the needed bricks arrived and didnt match it was too late/or cost prohibitive to fix it at that point.
soonerliberal 04-19-2012, 04:36 PM Most of the folks complaining either have no frame of reference or have ridiculous expectations for this market. These are the same people who think OKC could support an NFL and NBA franchise at the same time.
No... apples and oranges. The correct frame of reference would be to look at similar metropolitan areas and see what types of stores that are not present in Oklahoma that are present in those markets.
soonerliberal 04-19-2012, 04:40 PM I have zero stake in Penn Square. In fact I try to avoid it at Christmas! Penn is not an upscale mall, but it is definitely upper middle scale, but most people on here are treating it like its Crossroads! I'm baffled
50 Penn, I believe, has the opportunity to bring in some upper scale clients.. Maybe that could be their niche
I don't think we disagree about the aesthetics of the inside of the mall. I think pretty much everyone can agree that the interior of Penn Square is done quite well and compares with most average to above-average malls (and some elite malls as well). However, I believe the argument is with the store selection. The store selection of Penn Square is on par with what you would find in most mediocre malls in comparable markets. I don't think anyone is trying to compare Penn Square with Crossroads or even Sooner Mall for that matter, but the comparison is with other malls in markets of the similar size and demographics.
betts 04-19-2012, 05:07 PM I must say, though, that Dillards shoe department is starting to rival Nordstroms. The exception is that they don't have the $500 to $1200 shoes, which is fine with me. The selection at Dillards is almost overwhelming, even for a dedicated shoe shopper like me. That, occasionally Pottery Barn and William Sonoma, are pretty much the only stores at which I shop at Penn Square, but I certainly don't feel like I'm missing out. I prefer non-mall stores for most of my shopping, and I like Off Fifth at the Outlet Mall for discount designer clothing.
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