Where was Kensington Galleria? I don't remember that one at all. I used to ice skate at Williams Center all the time, was sad when it closed. We ate there a lot, but I don't really remember shopping there.

Near 71st and Wheeling during mid 80s. It was considered high end and didn't last very long. It was built at two levels next to a hotel of around 12 stories now known as the Marriott. It went out before malls closing down became a thing. Apparently, the largely oil-based economy could not support it at that time.

Why has this thread been hijacked to make it a debate on Tulsa defunct and struggling malls?

Why has this thread been hijacked to make it a debate on Tulsa defunct and struggling malls?

People on this forum love to go way off topic lol

I don't believe it is way off topic for any of this discussion. Penn Sq and its renovations/comparability to other malls was the current topic. Even discussing other malls was in relation to the longevity or traffic flow of Penn. That got going the dead mall list. The worry if Penn will survive in the future is a legit concern.
I believe it to be all relative.

How has North Park Mall held on for soooooo long? I remember rumors about North Park...right in the middle of the mall, cut it in half. Middle going North,keep as a mall. Middle going South...scrape and make into a strip mall or free standing stores. This rumor I heard in the late 80's/early 90's.

How has North Park Mall held on for soooooo long? I remember rumors about North Park...right in the middle of the mall, cut it in half. Middle going North,keep as a mall. Middle going South...scrape and make into a strip mall or free standing stores. This rumor I heard in the late 80's/early 90's.

I think because NorthPark doesn't try to compete with the large regional malls and features a lot of local shops, not generic national chains that have gone bankrupt in the past few years. Their footprint is also small, so low overhead on costs to operate. Unique clothing stores, BC Clark, and some diverse dining options also help.

A place like Penn Square is really at the mercy of national chains, and of course local stores usually struggle in a mall the size and layout of Penn Square.

Near 71st and Wheeling during mid 80s. It was considered high end and didn't last very long. It was built at two levels next to a hotel of around 12 stories now known as the Marriott. It went out before malls closing down became a thing. Apparently, the largely oil-based economy could not support it at that time.

Oh interesting, I think my mom briefly worked in that building around 94.

How has North Park Mall held on for soooooo long? I remember rumors about North Park...right in the middle of the mall, cut it in half. Middle going North,keep as a mall. Middle going South...scrape and make into a strip mall or free standing stores. This rumor I heard in the late 80's/early 90's.
That’s how all these rumors go. 99% are just that…gossip.

How has North Park Mall held on for soooooo long? I remember rumors about North Park...right in the middle of the mall, cut it in half. Middle going North,keep as a mall. Middle going South...scrape and make into a strip mall or free standing stores. This rumor I heard in the late 80's/early 90's.

Because it's owned privately and probably has been paid off for decades.

The theater is still dead empty and a lot of the tenants are very low-key. I suspect few of them are paying much in rent.

Plus, 122nd and May is a great location. Tons of traffic, high incomes, close to the Memorial corridor, etc.


Having said all that, it's a ghost town inside there. Nothing but mall walkers.

They have some pretty solid restaurants in there too. I just tried out The Hamilton for the first time last weekend.

you also think and said that it had not been renovated in over 20 years ..... which was completely wrong .. 87 mil in 2013 ..

This is what they did with all that money:
"The improvements include renovations in the bathrooms, new signs, a new exterior on the elevator, new skylights, and changes to the food court.

Merritt said the bathroom upgrades also included the addition of a nursing room for new mothers."
Source: Journal Record article https://journalrecord.com/2013/12/no-cones-penn-square-celebrates-end-of-renovations-real-estate/

I already said they did the entrance and the food court. But i would hardly call the rest of this major renovations. They replaced skylights which were leaking. That's maintenance. They replaced the outside of the elevator, which is regularly broken still. Moved customer service from that weird spot it was at in one of the wings, to the middle. Otherwise, the rest is bathrooms and signage.

So I would say again, that's not exactly a massive renovation of the mall. That's really deferred maintenance that finally got done. And it got done 10 years ago.

The renovations in 2000 were a major renovation. That's when they re-did ever single railing from that awful teel and purple to the shattered glass. They re-tiled to the marble look from the white. The entire look-and-feel of every inch of the mall changed then. Changing out tables in the food court, at least to me, doesn't count the same. They made little changes like adding the little food options and expanding the food court to allow for that. I'll give them that was a pretty big infrastructure change to do that. But you didn't even mention that one.

I'm not looking to go down a rabbit hole, but if you're going to make a statement about something like that 78 (not 87) million, then you need to know what that entailed.

What is it with Penn Square Mall and their roof etc.? I noticed the other day that that tennis shoe store by the Starbucks closed due to some type of water line break. Couple that with Williams Sonoma and their water issues, plus often seen buckets with heavy rain. Is the roof just defective? Weird to me.

What is going in the former Godiva space?

What is it with Penn Square Mall and their roof etc.? I noticed the other day that that tennis shoe store by the Starbucks closed due to some type of water line break. Couple that with Williams Sonoma and their water issues, plus often seen buckets with heavy rain. Is the roof just defective? Weird to me.

...

Low slope roofs are kind of notorious for these kind of issues eventually cropping up, from google images it looks like early 2012 was the last time they did major renovation on the roof of the mall core, the anchors seem to be done on an independent decision of the core.

One building owner a company I worked for rented space from with a roof design of similar vintage to PSM tried to argue it was better to know where the leaks were going to be than do spot work on the roof, since patching the known leaks likely would shift it to space that were previously unknown could leak, until eventually work on the entirety of the roof would be needed. Not that they were a great landlord, plus having known leaks was hardly the building's only issue, and I want to say we moved basically as soon as our lease ended after that.

Wasn't the Williams Sonoma water issue from a sewer or water line?

Wasn't the Williams Sonoma water issue from a sewer or water line?

Just came across the lawsuit where W&S sued the mall over sewer line problems -- it had nothing to do with the roof.

Yes - Williams Sonoma left after that sewer backed up. They left mid lease and could not open another location until the lease ran out. I can only imagine how bad that store smells now since the wood is still in place from the day it happened. It plagued that whole wing. Gap was shut down for a bit while they repaired and remodeled. Stores on the first level can always hear flushing/water running through pipes and some stores will have drip issues from above. Go down in the basement and you will hear and see the drips from the first floor pipes.

The roof has had leak issues for decades. When it rains, you will see bucket placements all over (the buckets are kept in the back hallways on standby).

Yes - Williams Sonoma left after that sewer backed up. They left mid lease and could not open another location until the lease ran out. I can only imagine how bad that store smells now since the wood is still in place from the day it happened. It plagued that whole wing. Gap was shut down for a bit while they repaired and remodeled. Stores on the first level can always hear flushing/water running through pipes and some stores will have drip issues from above. Go down in the basement and you will hear and see the drips from the first floor pipes.

The roof has had leak issues for decades. When it rains, you will see bucket placements all over (the buckets are kept in the back hallways on standby).

Yeah the part of the mall from the Men's Dillard's over to that wing smells a bit like a big fart from time to time. Not enough to avoid it but certainly enough for everyone in a group to look disgustedly around and play the blame game before realizing that it just smells that way.

I was talking to a Rooter professional a few years ago and he was telling me about rooting at Penn Square the week before. He opined that there were some number of sewer lines from the original, single level, open air shopping center that were not of a size and configuration capable of the flow needed for the current set up and capacity.

I was talking to a Rooter professional a few years ago and he was telling me about rooting at Penn Square the week before. He opined that there were some number of sewer lines from the original, single level, open air shopping center that were not of a size and configuration capable of the flow needed for the current set up and capacity.
Are people just going to the mall more and flushing? Seems to me there aren’t more bathrooms, restaurants, etc than there has been the last 40 years there. What has increased the load? Is traffic much greater now? That goes against the narrative on here.

Are people just going to the mall more and flushing? Seems to me there aren’t more bathrooms, restaurants, etc than there has been the last 40 years there. What has increased the load? Is traffic much greater now? That goes against the narrative on here.

I think the inference was that 60 year old lines are breaking down and failing on a more frequent basis. Some lines run straight under the retail store public spaces and should be dug p and replaced. Management is (understandably) reluctant to do that, so we get major backups that flood wood flooring. That causes tenants to not want to stay or renew.

I think the inference was that 60 year old lines are breaking down and failing on a more frequent basis. Some lines run straight under the retail store public spaces and should be dug p and replaced. Management is (understandably) reluctant to do that, so we get major backups that flood wood flooring. That causes tenants to not want to stay or renew.

He was referencing size and configuration of the system with current mall, not condition. That's why I asked the question. Didn't seem to be an issue until an incident a couple of years ago with a flooding, Didn't think it was a sewer backup.

Water leak with sewage in it. Poop water.

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2017/07/04/water-leak-flooding-lower-level-of-penn-square-mall/60589903007/

Water leak with sewage in it. Poop water.

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2017/07/04/water-leak-flooding-lower-level-of-penn-square-mall/60589903007/

Above referenced article from Oklahoman is from 2017.

Yes - that is when the major leak was from what has been discussed affecting that wing and it’s lingering smell.

Forgot to reply to above.

Above referenced article from Oklahoman is from 2017.

Yes - that is when the major leak was from what has been discussed affecting that wing and it’s lingering smell.

Water leak with sewage in it. Poop water.

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2017/07/04/water-leak-flooding-lower-level-of-penn-square-mall/60589903007/

I'm no plumber so maybe someone can enlighten me, but back when this occurred I thought this was an underground water line break and that brownish red we saw was just dirt mixing in. How can they 'shut off' a sewer line?

I see youtube videos of people casually hanging out and watching, but wouldn't the smell be horrible and everyone would get the heck out there?

I'm no plumber so maybe someone can enlighten me, but back when this occurred I thought this was an underground water line break and that brownish red we saw was just dirt mixing in. How can they 'shut off' a sewer line?

I see youtube videos of people casually hanging out and watching, but wouldn't the smell be horrible and everyone would get the heck out there?

Hey, that wouldn't be nearly as good of a story if it was just a water line.

Water leak with sewage in it. Poop water.

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2017/07/04/water-leak-flooding-lower-level-of-penn-square-mall/60589903007/

Where does it say sewer?

With sewage, it would have been a whole other level of clean-up.

With the amount of water, one would suspect a water main, or even the fire riser.

Where does it say sewer?

With sewage, it would have been a whole other level of clean-up.

With the amount of water, one would suspect a water main, or even the fire riser.

I am confused. Are you saying it was sewage?

Saying it wasn't sewage?

Saying you need video to believe anything happened?

I am lost as to what your point is?

I am confused. Are you saying it was sewage?

Saying it wasn't sewage?

Saying you need video to believe anything happened?

I am lost as to what your point is?

That flooding a few years ago looks more like a water break.

The sewage talk originated here: That was either a separate incident or there was a miscommunication.

Just came across the lawsuit where W&S sued the mall over sewer line problems -- it had nothing to do with the roof.

Can we please move on???

We don't need 10 pages talking about sewer and water issues from years ago.

Paramount Jeweler's moving into former Godiva space

Cool another Texas retailer new to market for Oklahoma!

Something I also noticed the last time I was there, was that a lot of the retailers closed quite a bit earlier than the actual mall close time. Department stores were at least an hour earlier. So instead of being able to walk through to my car, we had to walk around the department store (fyi, there was no sidewalk around that side of Penny's either) to get to the little lot between Pennys and Whiskey Cake. But we also noticed quite a few regular stores had their doors pulled down well before 9pm too.

To me, that normally indicates a feeling of lack of safety or theft protection in the last hours of the business night. Am I totally wrong?

Something I also noticed the last time I was there, was that a lot of the retailers closed quite a bit earlier than the actual mall close time. Department stores were at least an hour earlier. So instead of being able to walk through to my car, we had to walk around the department store (fyi, there was no sidewalk around that side of Penny's either) to get to the little lot between Pennys and Whiskey Cake. But we also noticed quite a few regular stores had their doors pulled down well before 9pm too.

To me, that normally indicates a feeling of lack of safety or theft protection in the last hours of the business night. Am I totally wrong?
Or that people just aren’t shopping much during the latter hours. No need to stay open if people aren’t spending money at that time.

Something I also noticed the last time I was there, was that a lot of the retailers closed quite a bit earlier than the actual mall close time. Department stores were at least an hour earlier. So instead of being able to walk through to my car, we had to walk around the department store (fyi, there was no sidewalk around that side of Penny's either) to get to the little lot between Pennys and Whiskey Cake. But we also noticed quite a few regular stores had their doors pulled down well before 9pm too.

To me, that normally indicates a feeling of lack of safety or theft protection in the last hours of the business night. Am I totally wrong?

No, that indicates to me that there are still labor shortages and they are electing to close earlier in order to make it easier to staff the store at peak times.

Something I also noticed the last time I was there, was that a lot of the retailers closed quite a bit earlier than the actual mall close time. Department stores were at least an hour earlier. So instead of being able to walk through to my car, we had to walk around the department store (fyi, there was no sidewalk around that side of Penny's either) to get to the little lot between Pennys and Whiskey Cake. But we also noticed quite a few regular stores had their doors pulled down well before 9pm too.

To me, that normally indicates a feeling of lack of safety or theft protection in the last hours of the business night. Am I totally wrong?

I noticed this when we went there for dinner one night. We walked around afterward and Dillard's was closing all its stuff up way before closing time. Seemed odd to me.

Seemed odd to me that they also open an hour after mall opening time.

We did make it to dress shop for my wife. Noticed that Dillards was absolutely fully stocked. However my wife found a dress she liked better at Macy's even though they 1/4 or more of the store is empty space. Felt kind of odd walking around Macy's.

I'm sure the early closures are due to staffing and the desire/need to only have to have one shift of personnel. This started during the pandemic.

If you open at 10 AM, unless you close by 6 or 7 PM you have to deal with a 2nd shift. The mall stays open until 8 PM; 9 on Fri & Sat and 6 on Sunday.

Currently, it's terribly hard to fill one shift let alone two or more.


BTW, when I lived in Southern Cal none of the malls stayed open that late, especially on the weekends. Now that many of them have more entertainment options (big theaters, more restaurants, other non-retail) the malls that survived have gradually expanded their hours but many of the pure retailers within have not.

I worked in the mall in the early 2000s at a fairly popular shoe store. We would open until 9pm but hardly sold anything after 7pm. Mostly just did stocking during those last few hours. Makes sense.

There’s a big difference between planned early closures and just pulling the gates down before closing time. I’ve run into places closing before their posted times on several occasions within the last year or so. If a store says they are open until 8:00, they should stay open until 8:00. This seems like a no-brainer, but I’ve heard justifications like, ”we weren’t busy” and “the person who closed had somewhere they needed to be.” If I’m driving across town to a store and arrive at 7:45 and the store is closed, I’m ticked. The sign says 8:00, Google says 8:00, their website says 8:00 and they close at 7:45 or earlier? No way should this be okay.

There’s a big difference between planned early closures and just pulling the gates down before closing time. I’ve run into places closing before their posted times on several occasions within the last year or so. If a store says they are open until 8:00, they should stay open until 8:00. This seems like a no-brainer, but I’ve heard justifications like, ”we weren’t busy” and “the person who closed had somewhere they needed to be.” If I’m driving across town to a store and arrive at 7:45 and the store is closed, I’m ticked. The sign says 8:00, Google says 8:00, their website says 8:00 and they close at 7:45 or earlier? No way should this be okay.

That's the current state of our economy and labor market for you(its not as bad as it was during Covid). You can tick off a handful of customers in the evening or you can be risk being understaff and ticking off a lot more customers due to long lines and less customer service. If your a manager you kind of have throw your employees these kind of bones unfortunately.

I hadn't thought of retail. But I know every restaurant we frequent. Which is way too many. Has had continuous problems keeping staffed since COVID. It's better but it's still bad. When they do hire people they leave the first time anything upsets them. Last Friday at the Chilis on NW Exp the managers were cooking because the cooks no-showed. I could list a page of similar examples we've seen over the past few years.

There’s a big difference between planned early closures and just pulling the gates down before closing time. I’ve run into places closing before their posted times on several occasions within the last year or so. If a store says they are open until 8:00, they should stay open until 8:00. This seems like a no-brainer, but I’ve heard justifications like, ”we weren’t busy” and “the person who closed had somewhere they needed to be.” If I’m driving across town to a store and arrive at 7:45 and the store is closed, I’m ticked. The sign says 8:00, Google says 8:00, their website says 8:00 and they close at 7:45 or earlier? No way should this be okay.

This should absolutely be ok. It may be a little frustrating, but oh well. That's life. And the people working there have lives and things come up, just like you do. I am lucky to work somewhere now that I can take care of things in my life without having to worry about my job - and I have no issue with other people having that same curtesy. It is excellent that companies have to respect their employees and throw them "these kinds of bones." Nothing has given me more pleasure than, when I was in college. being rejected for time-off from my job because "they just didn't have the people to work" and quitting on the spot. They quickly reversed course and gave me the time off. It's bs when you put your time-off request in before others and they get approved and you don't. Then the employer faces the consequences of their actions and is simply flabbergasted that "no one wants to work".

I really like that some restaurants now have their hours posted with a "last seating" time so people don't show up 15min to closing and expect a meal that wont even be ready before the employees expect to be able to go home.

If you are driving across town that close to closing, just call and ask their hours. NBD.

This should absolutely be ok. It may be a little frustrating, but oh well. That's life. And the people working there have lives and things come up, just like you do. I am lucky to work somewhere now that I can take care of things in my life without having to worry about my job - and I have no issue with other people having that same curtesy. It is excellent that companies have to respect their employees and throw them "these kinds of bones." Nothing has given me more pleasure than, when I was in college. being rejected for time-off from my job because "they just didn't have the people to work" and quitting on the spot. They quickly reversed course and gave me the time off. It's bs when you put your time-off request in before others and they get approved and you don't. Then the employer faces the consequences of their actions and is simply flabbergasted that "no one wants to work".

I really like that some restaurants now have their hours posted with a "last seating" time so people don't show up 15min to closing and expect a meal that wont even be ready before the employees expect to be able to go home.

If you are driving across town that close to closing, just call and ask their hours. NBD.

Mmhmm. If a business is closing earlier than advertised that is a problem with the company and manager/owner. Not the "employees being thrown a bone". If a business schedules the absolute bare minimum to run a store they need to anticipate that life happens and is more important than selling trinkets in a mall. They'll need to either close early or the manager or owner need to step up and fill in. Or they need to staff enough to be able to accommodate when life happens or if they can't afford that then they need to just close earlier. Seems like some of them are.

And all of that, to me, is indicative of slumping sales. If there was a demand, then there would be a need to pay sufficiently to get the staff there. The demand is lacking.

Potential mall news, probably more of a concern for Qual Springs than Penn. Macy's is closing 150 stores.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/27/investing/macys-closing-150-stores/index.html

duplicated post

Potential mall news, probably more of a concern for Qual Springs than Penn. Macy's is closing 150 stores.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/27/investing/macys-closing-150-stores/index.html

The Macy's at PSM needs to die a quick death. That store has been abominable for over 5 years. It and the JCPenney hold the mall back significantly.

Potential mall news, probably more of a concern for Qual Springs than Penn. Macy's is closing 150 stores.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/27/investing/macys-closing-150-stores/index.html
If what they're saying about focusing and adding smaller format stores is true, I could definitely see Macy's closing at PSM and relocating to a smaller store in OAK. Their Market stores are way nicer and more organized compared to the Woodland and PSM stores

If what they're saying about focusing and adding smaller format stores is true, I could definitely see Macy's closing at PSM and relocating to a smaller store in OAK. Their Market stores are way nicer and more organized compared to the Woodland and PSM stores

In that case the Macy's at both malls will be potentially be closing.

In that case the Macy's at both malls will be potentially be closing.

I think Penn Square and Woodland Hills would hold on. They are the last single store in a market, and the two best malls in the state, with Simon Group running both. I think where they would exit would be smaller markets and older malls. Springfield Missouri I think is the smallest market close to OKC with a Macy's remaining. DFW has between 12-16 Macy's locations, not all of those are in flagship locations, and another store would still serve the market just further away.

With Quail Springs, Crossroads, and Promenade all losing Macy's in the last decade or so, I think the two stores left would remain instead of exiting Oklahoma all together?

I think Penn Square and Woodland Hills would hold on. They are the last single store in a market, and the two best malls in the state, with Simon Group running both. I think where they would exit would be smaller markets and older malls. Springfield Missouri I think is the smallest market close to OKC with a Macy's remaining. DFW has between 12-16 Macy's locations, not all of those are in flagship locations, and another store would still serve the market just further away.

With Quail Springs, Crossroads, and Promenade all losing Macy's in the last decade or so, I think the two stores left would remain instead of exiting Oklahoma all together?

Plus the Macy's-Bloomingdale's Fulfillment Center is in Tulsa for easy stocking.

I think Penn Square and Woodland Hills would hold on. They are the last single store in a market, and the two best malls in the state, with Simon Group running both. I think where they would exit would be smaller markets and older malls. Springfield Missouri I think is the smallest market close to OKC with a Macy's remaining. DFW has between 12-16 Macy's locations, not all of those are in flagship locations, and another store would still serve the market just further away.

With Quail Springs, Crossroads, and Promenade all losing Macy's in the last decade or so, I think the two stores left would remain instead of exiting Oklahoma all together?

I guess it depends on how well these stores are performing. They are wanting to focus of the Bloomingdale and BlueMercury stores while opening smaller Macy's detatched from malls. I think at the very least the medium to long term writing is on the wall for these specific locations. They may build new stores in this market though. The thing about the Penn location is that there are nicer stores around it and there about to be even nicer stores across the street. I'm not sure being in a nicer mall is always a good thing if your being out competed. That area would be a good candidate for a Bloomingdale if they feel like the market can support.

For those who think Penn Square is only busy at Christmas, this is from Saturday March 9th:

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/pennsquare030924a.jpg

Mmhmm. If a business is closing earlier than advertised that is a problem with the company and manager/owner. Not the "employees being thrown a bone". If a business schedules the absolute bare minimum to run a store they need to anticipate that life happens and is more important than selling trinkets in a mall. They'll need to either close early or the manager or owner need to step up and fill in. Or they need to staff enough to be able to accommodate when life happens or if they can't afford that then they need to just close earlier. Seems like some of them are.

Until about a month ago, my daughter managed a store at PSM. The issue you have referenced is a work force issue. Stores are having a hard time finding good reliable employees. It was a constant issue of employees not showing up for their shift, quitting without even informing management, and more. Many of the stores cannot find or keep good help. If staffing is insufficient then some just close. Many stores won’t stay open when under staffed because of policy issues involving safety.

Yes, Pete’s picture is way more typical than not. I drive by a lot as I live a little north of it. It is way busier than most on this board imply.

For those who think Penn Square is only busy at Christmas, this is from Saturday March 9th:

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/pennsquare030924a.jpg

Belle Isle center looks packed, too.

Belle Isle center looks packed, too.

When you add in the Curve, just a couple blocks away, and Nichols Hills Plaza, this is a significantly large retail area.

When you add in the Curve, just a couple blocks away, and Nichols Hills Plaza, this is a significantly large retail area.

Maybe we should call it the Retail District! Haha!