Quail Springs certainly is not the shopping destination it once was, but they have held their ground as an entertainment and lifestyle center with Round One, AMC 24, Blue Zoo, and Lifestyle Fitness. I bet Von Maur wishes things went differently when they entered the market and had an opportunity at PSM. The area around Quail remains a retail corridor for sure. But as you mentioned with PSM, I don't know how JCP and Macy's are maintaining. Quail lost their Macy's a few years back in favor of Lifestyle and the Dillard's at QSM for the most part feels like 1987.

Woodland Hills is managed by Simon Property Group, as is PSM, and though it gives off Quail Springs Mall vibes with its location and mall layout in south Tulsa, it certainly is the closest thing to Penn Square Mall. Woodland Hills is building/getting Scheels Sporting Goods where Sears use to be on the west side, and apparently will be a destination type store like a Bass Pro Shops with interactive exhibits and a ferris wheel.

One of my concerns for both AMC Penn and Quail is how much longer they can maintain their market share with places like Flix, Showbiz, and others executing the movie, meal, recliner concept. AMC Quail has received minimal updates since they opened 25 years ago outside of the 4 larger theaters at the front. Penn Square AMC was one of the first with the recliners in OKC, but now almost every comparable place has that setup.

Penny’s future would be a lot brighter if they had 1) gotten Von Maur and LifeTime instead of Quail and 2) if they’d add some housing on the periphery.
HUH? PSM sits in the area with some of the best demographics in the state. Lots of customers very near.

If you are suggesting apartments, that won’t bring in high quality shops.

The mall wants shoppers with disposable income, not browsers and likely Amazon shoppers.

BTW, if we're going to compare Penn Square to other malls, let's start with those in Oklahoma:

Crossroads Mall
Shepherd Mall
Heritage Park Mall
Sooner Mall
French Market Mall
Century Center Mall
Northpark Mall
Shawnee Mall
Quail Springs Mall
Oakwood Mall (Enid)
Woodland Hills Mall
Eastland Mall
Sheridan Village
William Center
Central Plaza Lawton


That's a ton (15) of dead or nearly dead enclosed shopping malls just within the state.

The only malls that are even close to Penn Square is Quail Springs and maybe Woodland Hills, and neither are nearly as robust.

And all have same issues with stores opening/closing, mom and pops, dead anchors, etc.

Woodland Hills, which I have worked at as well, has never really had any mall competition in almost 20 years (Promenade was a half empty by 2006, and Eastland was a few years closed by then). They are going to benefit greatly with foot traffic when Scheel's opens. If you have never been to a Scheel's, it is a sports store on steroids.

Some dead anchors in other malls around the US have converted into Dicks and Scheel's- that would be a nice PSM addition if/when Macy's or JCP closes.

Quail Springs certainly is not the shopping destination it once was, but they have held their ground as an entertainment and lifestyle center with Round One, AMC 24, Blue Zoo, and Lifestyle Fitness. I bet Von Maur wishes things went differently when they entered the market and had an opportunity at PSM. The area around Quail remains a retail corridor for sure. But as you mentioned with PSM, I don't know how JCP and Macy's are maintaining. Quail lost their Macy's a few years back in favor of Lifestyle and the Dillard's at QSM for the most part feels like 1987.

Woodland Hills is managed by Simon Property Group, as is PSM, and though it gives off Quail Springs Mall vibes with its location and mall layout in south Tulsa, it certainly is the closest thing to Penn Square Mall. Woodland Hills is building/getting Scheels Sporting Goods where Sears use to be on the west side, and apparently will be a destination type store like a Bass Pro Shops with interactive exhibits and a ferris wheel.

One of my concerns for both AMC Penn and Quail is how much longer they can maintain their market share with places like Flix, Showbiz, and others executing the movie, meal, recliner concept. AMC Quail has received minimal updates since they opened 25 years ago outside of the 4 larger theaters at the front. Penn Square AMC was one of the first with the recliners in OKC, but now almost every comparable place has that setup.

AMC at Quail has closed off the back part of the theater from the midline up. I think it affects 6-9 theater rooms.

BTW, if we're going to compare Penn Square to other malls, let's start with those in Oklahoma:

Crossroads Mall
Shepherd Mall
Heritage Park Mall
Sooner Mall
French Market Mall
Century Center Mall
Northpark Mall
Shawnee Mall
Quail Springs Mall
Oakwood Mall (Enid)
Woodland Hills Mall
Eastland Mall
Sheridan Village
William Center
Central Plaza Lawton


That's a ton (15) of dead or nearly dead enclosed shopping malls just within the state.

The only malls that are even close to Penn Square are Quail Springs and maybe Woodland Hills, and neither are nearly as robust.

You forgot Tulsa Promenade, which is now dead. I disagree that Woodland is dying. Especially with Scheel's replacing the old Sears.

HUH? PSM sits in the area with some of the best demographics in the state. Lots of customers very near.

If you are suggesting apartments, that won’t bring in high quality shops.

The mall wants shoppers with disposable income, not browsers and likely Amazon shoppers.

Yeah, I hear all the people in Manhattan and Downtown Seattle have no disposable income, unlike the people living in single family homes in rural Mississippi.

AMC at Quail has closed off the back part of the theater from the midline up. I think it affects 6-9 theater rooms.

I think it took out 12 or 14 theaters. They had a massive water leak around Thanksgiving, the whole place was closed for about a week. The manager told us the repairs would take until at least the summer.

Penny’s future would be a lot brighter if they had 1) gotten Von Maur and LifeTime instead of Quail and 2) if they’d add some housing on the periphery.

In hindsight, closing the Sears at Quail and putting in Von Maur probably helped the mall as Sears really didn't ramp up closings til 2017 and the Sears would've likely closed at QSM around then anyways and sat vacant had Von Maur not moved in.

Guys, JCP won't be leaving either Penn Square or Quail Springs. Simon and Brookfield, owners of both malls respectively, own JCP now. So they're going to keep JCP in their malls. That's one reason Simon and Brookfield bought JCP was to restructure them and keep them from leaving their malls. Same goes for Forever 21 which is now owned by Simon.

I doubt Macys will leave. They're the only Macy's store now in the OKC market. And all Macy's, aside from Northpark in Dallas, look like the one at PSM. The one at Woodland Hills is identical. Even if they do leave though, the disposable income in the PSM area is so large, they will find a replacement for Macys just like Woodland Hills dfound a replacement for Sears. Dicks has a warehouse in the area but not an official store. They could easily put a store in the Macy's Space. They're building a 2 level store up on Memorial. The PSM area does not have one. Also Scheels would be an option. They're locating in Woodland and also Towne East Square in Wichita.

And The Oak will hurt Penn some but not completely. Yes, Pottery Barn is leaving, but Pottery Barn isn't typically located in malls. Look at Tulsa. They're not in Woodland Hills. They're in Utica Square. The only reason Pottery Barn located in Penn is because there were no lifestyle center options in the area at the time. Now there will be. Penn is a mall and has traditional mall stores. The Oak will have upscale boutique stores. Completely different. Kinda like comparing Penn to Classen Curve. Completely different store type.

I disagree that Woodland is dying. Especially with Scheel's replacing the old Sears.

Which is why I also posted this:


The only malls that are even close to Penn Square are Quail Springs and maybe Woodland Hills, and neither are nearly as robust.

You forgot Tulsa Promenade, which is now dead. I disagree that Woodland is dying. Especially with Scheel's replacing the old Sears.

Promenade is in a part of Tulsa that is similar demographically to PSM/OAK in OKC - nearby high incomes neighborhoods and next to high traffic thoroughfares. Because of this location it should be redeveloped in a similar fashion to OAK. Tear down the indoor mall but keep the new ice arena and the parking garage but build out the rest with apartments with retail.

I recently went to Penn for the first time in I think like 8 years or so.

The place is stuck in time for sure. You can tell there has been zero investment since the renovations in 2000-2001. That being said, it's still well kept, clean, and nothing looks like it majorlly needs any TLC or anything like that. They have re-done the food court at least a couple of times.

What I can see is that the stores in the place are starting to move towards the lower end of the stick. Penn had been known for having some more of the upper end of "mall stores" that you wouldn't have found in other places in OKC. Well, i think those days are going to the wayside. I was surprised to see that even the Banana Republic store is gone. What came in its place, kept the store build out and looks like a nice store still at least. But it's still a local mom-and-pop. When those start being more prevalent in a mall, the writing is on the wall for the eventual end.

I may be calling myself out as old now, but the population of customers also seemed a little more rough than they used to. I'm not sure if its just because the way people dress in general now is more relaxed after COVID with holey sweat pants and generally grunge being sort of cool again and where PJ bottoms are acceptable public wear now. My family laughed at me for saying this stuff while i was there since im in my 40's and not my 70s. LOL

The department anchors, well none of them ever do anything to do any sort of renovations on their stores....ever, in any mall. The same carpet that was installed when it opened, is the stuff that will be there when it closes. Stains and rips and all. I really wish these stores would go to carpet squares so they can at least pop them out....and not use light colored carpet too. Especially Macys is looking ROOOOUGH! And the inventory in these departments stores is so thin now. Just walking through, where you used to be crammed in with so much you could barely walk, now you could walk a semi truck through the things.

So the building itself, looks to be in fine condition. But my confidence in the place in terms of what's happening in there...not high. Simon is still taking in great profit from rents. They have no reason right now to do anything other than continue as they are. Putting millions into some sort of inside renovation wouldn't do them any good. It wouldn't attract more customers. Stores attract customers. And right now, malls are not what's attracting them. There is way too much competition out there from curbside.

On a personal note, i actual prefer malls myself. Park once and walk inside the rest. I tend to walk when i go store to store in a stripmall rather than drive between them. But i do prefer the inside walking myself. Again, i'm old.....

Either near or after Christmas may not be the best time to evaluate how thin the apparel selection is on average, durable goods would be another thing. Christmas is basically getting to be the end of when winter apparel will be full price or average sale, so they are not going to be restocking much more on winter clothing just to go on clearance. Yet depending on store it may not be till after February will completely switch seasons.


...
When was the last time you went to Penn Square and the parking lot was absolutely packed on a Saturday (and it wasn't Christmas)? That's extremely telling folks. Because that used to be every weekend.

City parking regulations have for decades typically demanded that parking be designed around the highest shopping traffic stores may have, which is the weekend before Christmas. Most stores need less than half of that the rest of the year.

Man we need a Scheels here in OKC.

Guys, JCP won't be leaving either Penn Square or Quail Springs. Simon and Brookfield, owners of both malls respectively, own JCP now. So they're going to keep JCP in their malls. That's one reason Simon and Brookfield bought JCP was to restructure them and keep them from leaving their malls. Same goes for Forever 21 which is now owned by Simon.

I doubt Macys will leave. They're the only Macy's store now in the OKC market.

Never say never especially on an extended timeline. They obviously saw it in their short term interest to keep JCPennys afloat. That doesn't mean they will run the company any better. Now any future revenue problems become their problem.

And really the only Macy's that is sacred is the NYC one, but I joked with my wife that maybe one day the parade will become the Amazon Thanksgiving Day Parade.

I've walked through that JC Penney and it is about 25% merchandised.

Everything looks very thin and spread out; I never see anyone buying anything.


But, as I've mentioned, both Dillards are completely full and they always seem to be busy.

I know this anecdotal but I imagine this is a similar story for other people my age (late 30’s): I haven’t been in a mall in over 5 years and have no plans to go to one again, ever. Everything I buy is either online or from a locally-owned retailer not located in a mall. Even the nicest malls may not exist in 10 years, or will be like the “dead malls” listed in Pete’s post.

The Macys stores in the central areas of Chicago (former Marshall-Fields) and Philadelphia (former Wanamaker’s) are fantastic historical buildings. Visit both if you get the chance.

As malls and anchor department stores generally continue to recede in popularity and performance, I do think Simon will need to keep its eye open for trends and adaptations that can prolong its life and levels of success. And make no mistake that PSM continues to be very successful, as far as malls are concerned. It’s clearly the best-performing mall in Oklahoma (by a lot), and that almost certainly has much to do with its central location and surrounding demographics.

The upscale retail trend nationally for the past quarter decade has clearly been in the direction of developments like Classen Curve and especially OAK, but until recently OKC resisted this growth and instead focused on downmarket, gross (in my opinion) and ultimately disposable big box stuff.

Gross big box comments aside, I do believe that its close proximity to the Belle Isle Walmart and its adjacent retail center - as poorly-executed as they were from a development standpoint in retrospect - has helped feed more retail traffic to PSM. In that way that development was actually beneficial to the community. I think OAK could be a similar positive for PSM as opposed to a negative; it enhances the retail density of that corner.

That said, I do indeed believe that the path to long term stability and success for PSM will require Simon to adapt to new realities and new trends in retail. Clearly enclosed malls are receding from the public’s taste and consumption patterns, and this will inevitably cause PSM to lose relevance, unless they find ways to update their business model.

I think the rendering upthread of the (Ohio..?) mall mixed use retrofit is actually a good inspiration for PSM long-term, though I don’t think their available land necessarily allows for a full mixed use adaptation to include office and residential.

Instead, I think they should look at expanding the retail square footage and frontages by reworking the parking, arguably the worst part of the PSM experience. They’ve already begun this to some extent with Cheesecake Factory, Whiskey Cake and Container Store, but I think to go any further they should look at replacing as much surface parking as possible with structured spaces, freeing up land in favor of revenue-producing square footage; potentially with a different look/feel, some outdoor space, possible some type of street frontage on the expressway or on Penn.

They should also look very closely at and embrace experiential retail, which is a clear trend and which is one of the few areas where brick and mortar has an advantage over online shopping.

I’m not suggesting any of this is an immediate need, but I do think adaptation will be required if that mall is to last another decade or two; much less 50+ years in some manner.

We don't go "mallin'" often, but we went into Penn Square yesterday in search of some specific shoes for my daughter. It was completely packed with people and was very alive. We went to Quail first and it had about half the life seen at PSM.

As malls and anchor department stores generally continue to recede in popularity and performance, I do think Simon will need to keep its eye open for trends and adaptations that can prolong its life and levels of success. And make no mistake that PSM continues to be very successful, as far as malls are concerned. It’s clearly the best-performing mall in Oklahoma (by a lot), and that almost certainly has much to do with its central location and surrounding demographics.

The upscale retail trend nationally for the past quarter decade has clearly been in the direction of developments like Classen Curve and especially OAK, but until recently OKC resisted this growth and instead focused on downmarket, gross (in my opinion) and ultimately disposable big box stuff.

Gross big box comments aside, I do believe that its close proximity to the Belle Isle Walmart and its adjacent retail center - as poorly-executed as they were from a development standpoint in retrospect - has helped feed more retail traffic to PSM. In that way that development was actually beneficial to the community. I think OAK could be a similar positive for PSM as opposed to a negative; it enhances the retail density of that corner.

That said, I do indeed believe that the path to long term stability and success for PSM will require Simon to adapt to new realities and new trends in retail. Clearly enclosed malls are receding from the public’s taste and consumption patterns, and this will inevitably cause PSM to lose relevance, unless they find ways to update their business model.

I think the rendering upthread of the (Ohio..?) mall mixed use retrofit is actually a good inspiration for PSM long-term, though I don’t think their available land necessarily allows for a full mixed use adaptation to include office and residential.

Instead, I think they should look at expanding the retail square footage and frontages by reworking the parking, arguably the worst part of the PSM experience. They’ve already begun this to some extent with Cheesecake Factory, Whiskey Cake and Container Store, but I think to go any further they should look at replacing as much surface parking as possible with structured spaces, freeing up land in favor of revenue-producing square footage; potentially with a different look/feel, some outdoor space, possible some type of street frontage on the expressway or on Penn.

They should also look very closely at and embrace experiential retail, which is a clear trend and which is one of the few areas where brick and mortar has an advantage over online shopping.

I’m not suggesting any of this is an immediate need, but I do think adaptation will be required if that mall is to last another decade or two; much less 50+ years in some manner.

I think failure to put a quality hotel and some residential on PSM property along with some other living sections would be pretty dangerous ground for the mall in the long run.

Ultimately, Between Oak and retrofitting PSM + Belle Isle parking lots, and maybe even redeveloping the office park around Pearl's, I think you could pretty easily add 1,500+ living units, plus hotel rooms. That gives the area a strong base of consumers who can support the massive hub of retail.

Which is why I also posted this:

I’ve been to both frequently. Woodland Hills is on an equal or near equal level with Penn Square. They are very similar malls. I’d argue that Sheels would give Woodland Hills a slight leg up (for sure as far as anchors go). Woodland Hills and quail aren’t a great comparison this point, especially in terms of the crowds. Quail feels like it’s struggling to a point and Woodland Hills doesn’t really have that feel to it. Penn is probably 1st, followed by Woodland and Quail in 3rd.

The Macys stores in the central areas of Chicago (former Marshall-Fields) and Philadelphia (former Wanamaker’s) are fantastic historical buildings. Visit both if you get the chance.

Try to go and time your visit when they play the pipe organ at old Wanamaker's/Macy's in center City Philadelphia.

I've walked through that JC Penney and it is about 25% merchandised.

Everything looks very thin and spread out; I never see anyone buying anything.


But, as I've mentioned, both Dillards are completely full and they always seem to be busy.Glad to know this! Sounds like Dillard's it is. I have to go shopping with my wife to find a dress for our niece's wedding and something suitable for the rehearsal dinner. NOT looking forward to it. I'd just about rather be tarred & feathered. Alcohol afterwards will definitely be involved. My wife HATES shopping so it will not be pleasant.

^

That one Dillard's (in the old John A. Brown space) is exclusively for women and they have a ton of quality merchandise.

The other Dillard's is just as well-stocked for men.


We're lucky to have both those stores and I don't get why people keep complaining about Macy's when Dillards is in the same mall with two great department stores. Maybe they'd be happier if Macy's completely closed like they did in Quail Springs?

I’ve been to both frequently. Woodland Hills is on an equal or near equal level with Penn Square. They are very similar malls. I’d argue that Sheels would give Woodland Hills a slight leg up (for sure as far as anchors go). Woodland Hills and quail aren’t a great comparison this point, especially in terms of the crowds. Quail feels like it’s struggling to a point and Woodland Hills doesn’t really have that feel to it. Penn is probably 1st, followed by Woodland and Quail in 3rd.

Woodland must be doing just fine or Simon wouldn't be building a "Simon Premium Outlets" in Jenks. Regardless, the age of malls is over. Tulsa now only has Woodland where there used to be three malls at 41st and Yale alone, the recently dead Promenade, Southroads which has been converted to big box stores and the demolished Annex Mall.

Glad to know this! Sounds like Dillard's it is. I have to go shopping with my wife to find a dress for our niece's wedding and something suitable for the rehearsal dinner. NOT looking forward to it. I'd just about rather be tarred & feathered. Alcohol afterwards will definitely be involved. My wife HATES shopping so it will not be pleasant.

The Dillard’s men’s department has one of the best suit/blazer/nice clothing specialists in the city. His name is Andre. I go see him every time I need a new suit or something nicer to wear. Highly recommend.

The Dillard’s men’s department has one of the best suit/blazer/nice clothing specialists in the city. His name is Andre. I go see him every time I need a new suit or something nicer to wear. Highly recommend.Thanks. I have a couple suits but I have this feeling I'm going to have to shell out for a new one since the wife will be wearing all new.

Glad to know this! Sounds like Dillard's it is. I have to go shopping with my wife to find a dress for our niece's wedding and something suitable for the rehearsal dinner. NOT looking forward to it. I'd just about rather be tarred & feathered. Alcohol afterwards will definitely be involved. My wife HATES shopping so it will not be pleasant.

The Dillards at PSM are both top-tier. They have brands even the flagships don't have (Creed cologne, for example; a VERY expensive brand). So yeah, PSM has that going for it.

Glad to know this! Sounds like Dillard's it is. I have to go shopping with my wife to find a dress for our niece's wedding and something suitable for the rehearsal dinner. NOT looking forward to it. I'd just about rather be tarred & feathered. Alcohol afterwards will definitely be involved. My wife HATES shopping so it will not be pleasant.

Has to be a typo!

Has to be a typo!

Was thinking the same, lol. I wish my wife would hate shopping.

Has to be a typo!

lol women amiritefellas

Try to go and time your visit when they play the pipe organ at old Wanamaker's/Macy's in center City Philadelphia.

I've been in that Macy's at the right time for a pipe organ performance, it is a neat experience.

What hurts my soul is that Delaware has a Nordstrom and OKC doesn't. I know, population density there, but still. There are dozens off them there within driving distance. OKC desperately needs a store like that to add credibility to our retail sector.

Woodland must be doing just fine or Simon wouldn't be building a "Simon Premium Outlets" in Jenks. Regardless, the age of malls is over. Tulsa now only has Woodland where there used to be three malls at 41st and Yale alone, the recently dead Promenade, Southroads which has been converted to big box stores and the demolished Annex Mall.

With how many empty outlet malls there are around, I can't believe they are building another one.

I've been in that Macy's at the right time for a pipe organ performance, it is a neat experience.

Same. Very cool experience. The giant eagle statue is something to see as well.

With how many empty outlet malls there are around, I can't believe they are building another one.

I think for the most part they’ve done pretty well in cities with one outlet mall or one dominant outlet mall. OKC’s is doing pretty well as the one in Allen several I know of in CO

Same. Very cool experience. The giant eagle statue is something to see as well.

I grew up in Philadelphia and have fond memories of the store when it was the entire building, meeting family at the eagle, lunch in the Crystal Tea Room, my first train came from there. I worked there in the 90's before it was sold.

Promenade is in a part of Tulsa that is similar demographically to PSM/OAK in OKC - nearby high incomes neighborhoods and next to high traffic thoroughfares. Because of this location it should be redeveloped in a similar fashion to OAK. Tear down the indoor mall but keep the new ice arena and the parking garage but build out the rest with apartments with retail.

Promenade Mall was Tulsa's answer to OKC's Penn Square until 2005 when Mervyn's closed and then things slowly went downhill but accelerated in recent years.

Try to go and time your visit when they play the pipe organ at old Wanamaker's/Macy's in center City Philadelphia.

I second (or third) this! Took a spur of the moment long weekend to Phila. in the mid 2000s when I lived in FL and had an airline credit to use or lose and had a great time. The highlight of the weekend for me was going to a concert to hear that massive organ in that architecturally incredible space. You know President Taft spoke at its opening! Here is a link to a clip of video showcasing the sound of that organ I put on YouTube from that trip 18 years ago https://youtu.be/azZZUA9OGkQ?si=EubzkSndFcJ7ZNKk

Has to be a typo!
Thank goodness it's not a typo. She just doesn't shop. Not even online. Grocery stores are the only place. Then she wants to go down every isle "in case".

I think failure to put a quality hotel and some residential on PSM property along with some other living sections would be pretty dangerous ground for the mall in the long run.

Ultimately, Between Oak and retrofitting PSM + Belle Isle parking lots, and maybe even redeveloping the office park around Pearl's, I think you could pretty easily add 1,500+ living units, plus hotel rooms. That gives the area a strong base of consumers who can support the massive hub of retail.

removing all of the parking would kill PSM period ..

Woodland must be doing just fine or Simon wouldn't be building a "Simon Premium Outlets" in Jenks.

those things have NOTHING to do with eachother

I think failure to put a quality hotel and some residential on PSM property along with some other living sections would be pretty dangerous ground for the mall in the long run.

Ultimately, Between Oak and retrofitting PSM + Belle Isle parking lots, and maybe even redeveloping the office park around Pearl's, I think you could pretty easily add 1,500+ living units, plus hotel rooms. That gives the area a strong base of consumers who can support the massive hub of retail.

Just to add a bit more color here - based on how that office park is set up, I seriously doubt that could actually happen. It is split up into a bunch of different owners, and beyond that, those buildings stay pretty full.

Just to add a bit more color here - based on how that office park is set up, I seriously doubt that could actually happen. It is split up into a bunch of different owners, and beyond that, those buildings stay pretty full.

Full and pretty expensive.

Full and pretty expensive.

Truth.

Promenade Mall was Tulsa's answer to OKC's Penn Square until 2005 when Mervyn's closed and then things slowly went downhill but accelerated in recent years.

I disagree with this. Woodland Hills has always had store locations first then if they opened a second, it would open at Promenade. That may have been the original intention but it never came to fruition.

I disagree with this. Woodland Hills has always had store locations first then if they opened a second, it would open at Promenade. That may have been the original intention but it never came to fruition.

Both statements are true.

Promenade and Penn Square were originally both outdoor shopping malls and in more established parts of town. In 1986, Promenade was re-built as an indoor mall and 1982 Penn Square was enclosed. Both in response to the indoor shopping mall boom of the 70's and 80's.

Geographically and demographically Woodland Hills and Quail Springs have a lot in common. Both were built within about 5 years of each other, Woodland Hills in 1976 and Quail Springs Mall in 1980. Both were built as multi-story indoor racetrack malls with four anchors. Both were built essentially in the "middle of nowhere" as Quail Springs was in far northwest OKC when there was very little on Memorial Road, and Woodland Hills Mall was far south Tulsa at the time with very little built east of it. With the Kilpatrick Turnpike for QSM and the expansion of HWY 169 for Woodland Hills, both malls became much more accessible to the entire city. The areas around Quail Springs Mall and Woodland Hills mall are nearly identical with big box centers and casual/fast dining locations.

However, the tenant mix of Woodland Hills and Penn Square are very similar. As it has been stated Quail Springs is not in the shape Promenade is/was before closing in September 2023, but doesn't hold the same tier of retail as PSM and Woodland Hills. I think a lot of this is based upon mall management. Simon Property Group owns both Woodland Hills and Penn Square and have managed both malls to keep their higher tier retail demand.

Most towns the size of OKC, Tulsa, Wichita, etc seem to be able to hold on to one traditional indoor shopping mall, while the other malls built either close or re-invent themselves into lifestyle centers, office space, community centers, etc.

Both statements are true.

Promenade and Penn Square were originally both outdoor shopping malls and in more established parts of town. In 1986, Promenade was re-built as an indoor mall and 1982 Penn Square was enclosed. Both in response to the indoor shopping mall boom of the 70's and 80's.

Geographically and demographically Woodland Hills and Quail Springs have a lot in common. Both were built within about 5 years of each other, Woodland Hills in 1976 and Quail Springs Mall in 1980. Both were built as multi-story indoor racetrack malls with four anchors. Both were built essentially in the "middle of nowhere" as Quail Springs was in far northwest OKC when there was very little on Memorial Road, and Woodland Hills Mall was far south Tulsa at the time with very little built east of it. With the Kilpatrick Turnpike for QSM and the expansion of HWY 169 for Woodland Hills, both malls became much more accessible to the entire city. The areas around Quail Springs Mall and Woodland Hills mall are nearly identical with big box centers and casual/fast dining locations.

However, the tenant mix of Woodland Hills and Penn Square are very similar. As it has been stated Quail Springs is not in the shape Promenade is/was before closing in September 2023, but doesn't hold the same tier of retail as PSM and Woodland Hills. I think a lot of this is based upon mall management. Simon Property Group owns both Woodland Hills and Penn Square and have managed both malls to keep their higher tier retail demand.

Most towns the size of OKC, Tulsa, Wichita, etc seem to be able to hold on to one traditional indoor shopping mall, while the other malls built either close or re-invent themselves into lifestyle centers, office space, community centers, etc.

Great post! Didn't realize The Promenade was also an outdoor mall at one time.

Both statements are true.

Promenade and Penn Square were originally both outdoor shopping malls and in more established parts of town. In 1986, Promenade was re-built as an indoor mall and 1982 Penn Square was enclosed. Both in response to the indoor shopping mall boom of the 70's and 80's.

Geographically and demographically Woodland Hills and Quail Springs have a lot in common. Both were built within about 5 years of each other, Woodland Hills in 1976 and Quail Springs Mall in 1980. Both were built as multi-story indoor racetrack malls with four anchors. Both were built essentially in the "middle of nowhere" as Quail Springs was in far northwest OKC when there was very little on Memorial Road, and Woodland Hills Mall was far south Tulsa at the time with very little built east of it. With the Kilpatrick Turnpike for QSM and the expansion of HWY 169 for Woodland Hills, both malls became much more accessible to the entire city. The areas around Quail Springs Mall and Woodland Hills mall are nearly identical with big box centers and casual/fast dining locations.

However, the tenant mix of Woodland Hills and Penn Square are very similar. As it has been stated Quail Springs is not in the shape Promenade is/was before closing in September 2023, but doesn't hold the same tier of retail as PSM and Woodland Hills. I think a lot of this is based upon mall management. Simon Property Group owns both Woodland Hills and Penn Square and have managed both malls to keep their higher tier retail demand.

Most towns the size of OKC, Tulsa, Wichita, etc seem to be able to hold on to one traditional indoor shopping mall, while the other malls built either close or re-invent themselves into lifestyle centers, office space, community centers, etc.

Promenade/Southland was never a higher end mall like Penn Square. The center opened in 1965 as the Southland outdoor shopping center and was enclosed in 1986 to better compete with Southroads Mall across the street and the much larger Woodland Hills Mall, which opened in 1976. Southroads opened in 1967 as Tulsa's first enclosed mall and got the higher end stores over Promenade. Even when Southroads closed in 1997, converting to the current Big Box center, and Foleys/Macys and some other stores moved across to Promenade, Utica Square was still just three miles away and by then Woodland was the dominant regional mall. I'm not sure that Promenade was ever completely filled, even right after Southroads closed.

Penn Square wasn't always upscale at all either. 50 Penn Place was the upscale mall, though very small, but when 50 Penn emptied, Penn Square had no Utica Square to compete for stores.

Tulsa had two other "upscale" malls. The Kensington Galleria opened in 1984 but didn't last 10 years and is now an office complex. The Williams Center Forum downtown was a little more successful, opening in 1978 but was converted to office space in 1995.

The Dillards at PSM are both top-tier. They have brands even the flagships don't have (Creed cologne, for example; a VERY expensive brand). So yeah, PSM has that going for it.

Dillard's has weathered the downturn for department stores better than most. I think fewer stores and dedication to the stores they have has helped. Macy's is a house of cards waiting to collapse. Has the one at PSM been remodeled since it was a Foley's?

I disagree with this. Woodland Hills has always had store locations first then if they opened a second, it would open at Promenade. That may have been the original intention but it never came to fruition.
I disagree back. When I went to Promenade Mall prior to 2005, the experience was similar to going to Penn Square Mall. But Penn Square Mall somewhat better. And going to Woodland Hills Mall back then was similar to going to Quail Springs Mall. Now in 2024, I'm not near as fascinated with malls as I used to be. Heck, I haven't checked out changes at Quail Springs Mall in several years. Forget about Woodland Hills Mall. I'd be embarrassed to say how many years it's been since I've been there.

So what I'm seeing here is two views:

Either you see PSM as declining or you see it as "just fine". And it doesn't appear that the points raised by either side are going to convince anyone of anything other than their own view.

You know what? That's exactly how capitalism and markets work, so I think that's great. If you think the place is still great, that's awesome and I encourage you to still go there. Personally, I'm on the opposite camp and probably wont be back for another 10 years. We'll see what it looks like then.

In the meantime, we'll see more malls either change their format (think how Shawnee re-formatted several places to be curbside) or flat close. Northpark is one of those oddities that shouldn't exist, but yet it does. Norman is still trucking in it's lower-end mall status, but can hang there. If University Town Center hasn't killed it yet, i dont think it will. Quail, well i'm sure it will continue on as long as Penn will. But Pete did give us a good listing in a previous comment about the number of malls in OK that have closed in the last 20 years. And it's not a short one. To me, the outlook is not good, which is a bit of a shame.


Also, i'm not sure you can count the outlet mall in the same category. Its almost curbside in that you are outside and can park almost right up to whichever place you want to go in. Hence, why they built it that way (and saving on the HVAC/Electrical on the "inside" portion). Perhaps this is the wave of the future. If they're building these things up in the frigid north of the US (and yes they are), then I find it likely.

So what I'm seeing here is two views:

Either you see PSM as declining or you see it as "just fine". And it doesn't appear that the points raised by either side are going to convince anyone of anything other than their own view.

You know what? That's exactly how capitalism and markets work, so I think that's great. If you think the place is still great, that's awesome and I encourage you to still go there. Personally, I'm on the opposite camp and probably wont be back for another 10 years. We'll see what it looks like then.



you also think and said that it had not been renovated in over 20 years ..... which was completely wrong .. 87 mil in 2013 ..

What would another remodel even look like? What are we comparing PSM against? Everyone wants to throw some money to spruce up their business to make it more appealing for years to come, figuring out what gets a customers interest is a lot more difficult.

I disagree back. When I went to Promenade Mall prior to 2005, the experience was similar to going to Penn Square Mall. But Penn Square Mall somewhat better. And going to Woodland Hills Mall back then was similar to going to Quail Springs Mall. Now in 2024, I'm not near as fascinated with malls as I used to be. Heck, I haven't checked out changes at Quail Springs Mall in several years. Forget about Woodland Hills Mall. I'd be embarrassed to say how many years it's been since I've been there.

I will disagree back back, but offer up some more info.
I worked at Woodland Hills in 2005 as a manager in a store that was insanely popular at the time. The company opened a location in Promenade mall and promoted an Asm from the Quail Springs store to run it. Promenade had carpet in the walk ways and smaller than Woodland Hills (visual difference) and a traffic count that was less than half of what Woodland had. My location did 2 million at the time and after Promenades first full year, Promenade did 700K. They never did more than that for however long they stayed open. Every store mgr that I knew of at a store in Woodland did higher than their Promenade counterparts (if had a store there) did almost double. The same is said for PSM and Quail- Penn does more- year after year. It was almost like if Quail does 1 million, Penn will do 2 (side note- Sooner Fashion usually was between both). This is just not one company I am referring to, but 3 that I worked for. Even ones I have not- look at Gap (full price only at Penn) closed Quail and Sooner since 2003, Abercrombie at Penn was the last one standing before they shut them down all in Oklahoma, etc.
Promenade, from the first time I went in, reminded me of an older, small town mall with one off stores, and was really low volume.

edited for typos

I will disagree back back, but offer up some more info.
I worked at Woodland Hills in 2005 as a manager in a store that was insanely popular at the time. The company opened a location in Promenade mall and promoted an Asm from the Quail Springs store to run it. Promenade had carpet in the walk ways and smaller than Woodland Hills (visual difference) and a traffic count that was less than half of what Woodland had. My location did 2 million at the time and after Promenades first full year, Promenade did 700K. They never did more than that for however long they stayed open. Every store mgr that I knew of at a store in Woodland did higher than their Promenade counterparts (if had a store there) did almost double. The same is said for PSM and Quail- Penn does more- year after year. It was almost like if Quail does 1 million, Penn will do 2 (side note- Sooner Fashion usually was between both). This is just not one company I am referring to, but 3 that I worked for. Even ones I have not- look at Gap (full price only at Penn) closed Quail and Sooner since 2003, Abercrombie at Penn was the last one standing before they shut them down all in Oklahoma, etc.
Promenade, from the first time I went in, reminded me of an older, small town mall with one off stores, and was really low volume.

edited for typos

This all sounds plausible in regards to foot traffic, location, an overall demographics....and yes I remember the odd feeling of carpet at Promenade and the weird layout with a 45 degree corridor to Mervyns and the food court tucked away in the corner on the 2nd floor.

My counter would be if a store was to close at Quail Springs Mall, would PSM see a comparable boost in sales? For example, when Macy's closed at QSM, did the Penn Square location really see a sizable jump in sales? The same with a store like GAP when they left QSM?

At the same time, I always wondered if an Apple Store opened in or near Quail Springs or even in a place like Spring Creek in Edmond, if it would generate more sales, or just move a percentage of existing customers from the Penn Square store over to a different location?

I will disagree back back, but offer up some more info.
I worked at Woodland Hills in 2005 as a manager in a store that was insanely popular at the time. The company opened a location in Promenade mall and promoted an Asm from the Quail Springs store to run it. Promenade had carpet in the walk ways and smaller than Woodland Hills (visual difference) and a traffic count that was less than half of what Woodland had. My location did 2 million at the time and after Promenades first full year, Promenade did 700K. They never did more than that for however long they stayed open. Every store mgr that I knew of at a store in Woodland did higher than their Promenade counterparts (if had a store there) did almost double. The same is said for PSM and Quail- Penn does more- year after year. It was almost like if Quail does 1 million, Penn will do 2 (side note- Sooner Fashion usually was between both). This is just not one company I am referring to, but 3 that I worked for. Even ones I have not- look at Gap (full price only at Penn) closed Quail and Sooner since 2003, Abercrombie at Penn was the last one standing before they shut them down all in Oklahoma, etc.
Promenade, from the first time I went in, reminded me of an older, small town mall with one off stores, and was really low volume.

edited for typos

I was the first ASM at the Waldenbooks in Promenade when it opened in 1986 and was there through 1988. At no time were we able to get within 60% of the sales of the Waldenbooks at Woodland Hills.

Promenade Mall was Tulsa's answer to OKC's Penn Square until 2005 when Mervyn's closed and then things slowly went downhill but accelerated in recent years.

My whole life (40 years) Woodland Hills was always the nicest mall in Tulsa.

Promenade/Southland was never a higher end mall like Penn Square. The center opened in 1965 as the Southland outdoor shopping center and was enclosed in 1986 to better compete with Southroads Mall across the street and the much larger Woodland Hills Mall, which opened in 1976. Southroads opened in 1967 as Tulsa's first enclosed mall and got the higher end stores over Promenade. Even when Southroads closed in 1997, converting to the current Big Box center, and Foleys/Macys and some other stores moved across to Promenade, Utica Square was still just three miles away and by then Woodland was the dominant regional mall. I'm not sure that Promenade was ever completely filled, even right after Southroads closed.

Penn Square wasn't always upscale at all either. 50 Penn Place was the upscale mall, though very small, but when 50 Penn emptied, Penn Square had no Utica Square to compete for stores.

Tulsa had two other "upscale" malls. The Kensington Galleria opened in 1984 but didn't last 10 years and is now an office complex. The Williams Center Forum downtown was a little more successful, opening in 1978 but was converted to office space in 1995.

Where was Kensington Galleria? I don't remember that one at all. I used to ice skate at Williams Center all the time, was sad when it closed. We ate there a lot, but I don't really remember shopping there.

My whole life (40 years) Woodland Hills was always the nicest mall in Tulsa.

The point made was that Promenade Mall was the nearest mall Tulsa had to compare with Penn Square until around 2005. As for Woodland Hills, OKC didn't have anything like it until Quail Springs mall opened.