Even when in bloom, they smell like dead fish rotting in the sun. What's the upside to these trees exactly?

They could fix the parking on the grass thing with some cheap landscaping. They should plant hedges or bradford pear trees and call it a day. It would make it look much better than it does and also keep the big trucks from tearing up the grass.

I suggested the same thing a couple of pages ago. Just do some landscaping, maybe put a landscape wall or two etc. People will park on grass (which has now turned to dirt) but I think they're less likely to drive over shrubs, flowers, trees and so on.

But I echo the others' thoughts on Bradford Pears. Go with another tree. Those trees are trouble.

According to their website (and a story I saw on Twitter), Texas de Brazil is opening at Penn Square next year.

According to their website (and a story I saw on Twitter), Texas de Brazil is opening at Penn Square next year.

Interesting. I am curious where. Maybe Pepperoni Grill or the mexican food place is shutting down? Surely they are not going into the food court.

Texas de Brazil Churrascaria plans restuarant in Oklahoma City | Oklahoma City - OKC - KOCO.com (http://www.koco.com/news/texas-de-brazil-churrascaria-plans-restuarant-in-oklahoma-city/24937534)

Didn't the mall have an expansion plan? If so it's possible it could be a part of the expansion.

Interesting. I am curious where. Maybe Pepperoni Grill or the mexican food place is shutting down? Surely they are not going into the food court.

Would have to be unless this is part of an expansion. This concept is too upscale for the food court.

I can't wait for this restaurant.

Cheesecake Factory wasn't always there... could go in the parking lot...

Didn't the mall have an expansion plan? If so it's possible it could be a part of the expansion.Bchris came up with an awesome expansion that I think would be great for PS

Surely they are not going into the food court.

I don't think so. And don't call me Shirley.

I don't think so. And don't call me Shirley.

I was hoping someone would grasp the Airplane reference.

Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.

Would have to be unless this is part of an expansion. This concept is too upscale for the food court.

I can't wait for this restaurant.

I have a feeling somebody's lease is about to be up.

Rover said exactly what I was thinking on the Texas De Brazil thread that we both think this will go in north of the Cheesecake Factory in that large parking lot. That parking lot is largely empty for about 11 months out of the year.

I took my car to have the oil changed at the Walmart next door and walked over to the mall in the mean time. I know I've harped on this in other threads on this forum before, but more parts of this city need to become more walker friendly. It was not a pleasant walk. I won't go so far as to say it's a hostile walking environment but it would make since that these two shopping areas, in such close proximatey, should have a better walkng experience.

I took my car to have the oil changed at the Walmart next door and walked over to the mall in the mean time. I know I've harped on this in other threads on this forum before, but more parts of this city need to become more walker friendly. It was not a pleasant walk. I won't go so far as to say it's a hostile walking environment but it would make since that these two shopping areas, in such close proximatey, should have a better walkng experience.

I completely agree. I bet the developers of that shopping center thought that the mall would take up their parking if they made it more walkable.

A pedestrian bridge over the stormwater channel connecting the strip and the mall would go a long way toward improving things...

Yeah, I have dropped my car at Red Carpet and tried to run across to PSM to grab something while it was being worked on, and it is seriously no bueno. As in, "you can't get there from here."

I completely agree. I bet the developers of that shopping center thought that the mall would take up their parking if they made it more walkable.

If I remember right, they wanted to tie into Penn Square but, Penn Square fought against because they did not want the Walmart crowd tied into the mall.

I agree. If Penn Square is to have any resemblance to an upscale mall, it can't be tied into a Wal-Mart shopping center.

a pedestrian bridge so that people aren't killed on that crazy stretch of road (Belle Isle Blvd?) does not necessarily a tie-in make (I'm not asking for a bright flashing lights and signage along with a yellow brick road leading people like the pied piper from walmart to penn square). at present, you have to cross the road and walk in the grass, then cross back over, because there's no room on the north side to walk when going over the bridge unless you want to risk getting clipped or outright squished...

a pedestrian bridge so that people aren't killed on that crazy stretch of road (Belle Isle Blvd?) does not necessarily a tie-in make (I'm not asking for a bright flashing lights and signage along with a yellow brick road leading people like the pied piper from walmart to penn square). at present, you have to cross the road and walk in the grass, then cross back over, because there's no room on the north side to walk when going over the bridge unless you want to risk getting clipped or outright squished...

If the mall had their way, I am sure the Great Wall of China would go in long before any kind of pedestrian bridge would be built. In the end, it would probably end up like the pedestrian bridge over I-240. The shoplifters took the bridge as a quick getaway. They could be over in the apartment complexes gone before the police are even called. The main reason Walmart moved to Santa Fe instead of expanding like they could have on Penn.

I agree the mall will fight it to the end. Afterall, though it's in the core, it's a suburban style mall, so sidewalks and walkability are less than optional.

I agree the mall will fight it to the end. Afterall, though it's in the core, it's a suburban style mall, so sidewalks and walkability are less than optional.

They are all about walkability....INSIDE their mall. Go there any day, any night and there are people walking all over the place.

Not sure why anyone thinks it greatly important to walk a quarter mile from WalMart to the mall to go shopping. You aren't going to haul goods from one place to the other. And, hiking across big parking lots and streets isn't recreational. PSM isn't looking for WalMart shoppers and WM doesn't expect those out for a day of shopping at PSM to come window shop at WM. Both know their markets.

They are all about walkability....INSIDE their mall. Go there any day, any night and there are people walking all over the place.

Not sure why anyone thinks it greatly important to walk a quarter mile from WalMart to the mall to go shopping. You aren't going to haul goods from one place to the other. And, hiking across big parking lots and streets isn't recreational. PSM isn't looking for WalMart shoppers and WM doesn't expect those out for a day of shopping at PSM to come window shop at WM. Both know their markets.

I agree. I have always thought the way the Wal-Mart is connected to Woodland Hills Mall in Tulsa is kind of tacky. I am glad there is a definitive separation between Penn Square and Wal-Mart.

They are all about walkability....INSIDE their mall. Go there any day, any night and there are people walking all over the place.

Not sure why anyone thinks it greatly important to walk a quarter mile from WalMart to the mall to go shopping. You aren't going to haul goods from one place to the other. And, hiking across big parking lots and streets isn't recreational. PSM isn't looking for WalMart shoppers and WM doesn't expect those out for a day of shopping at PSM to come window shop at WM. Both know their markets.+1

I agree that there's no singular reason that one should be able to walk from Wal-Mart to PSM as opposed to any other place, but maybe the flaw here is that everywhere in the city should be walkable. I would say that there's no singular reason that one should NOT be able to walk from one part of the city to another (or that it should be so difficult).

They could fix the parking on the grass thing with some cheap landscaping. They should plant hedges or bradford pear trees and call it a day. It would make it look much better than it does and also keep the big trucks from tearing up the grass.

Bradford pear trees fall when there is a ice storm or strong winds, they make people with allergies very sick, they stink when they bloom, and they are ranked the worse tree to plan in Oklahoma. One a side note: OKC developers, please stop planing Bradford Pear Trees on your new construction sites. You make everyone with allergies suffer. There are really hundreds of other good options.

Walmart needs to be taken out of that shopping center and it needs to be reworked and made more walk-able, nicer stores, more landscaping, more stores, and have more natural features instead of an ugly massive parking lot.

Walmart needs to be taken out of that shopping center and it needs to be reworked and made more walk-able, nicer stores, more landscaping, more stores, and have more natural features instead of an ugly massive parking lot.

Belle Isle should have never been built as a Wal-Mart shopping center to begin with. It was an amazing opportunity to do an upscale lifestyle center that would complement Penn Square Mall and that's actually what it was originally supposed to be. They could have also reworked the old power plant into the development. Like so much development in OKC though, the developer decided to do the cheapest, most bare minimum thing they could get away with and that ended up being a Wal-Mart strip mall. Unfortunately, the possibility of a do-over at this point is pretty much nil. It is what it is.

A thing about the parking issues, why can't they add another parking garage to the mall? There's Plenty of space for a second parking garage

Yea, I've mentioned that before. Expand the parking garage to the north and add a big new one on the SW corner, right at the NW Expressway and Penn intersection. Multiple ingress/egress for both. Eliminate most if not all surface parking except for absolute overflow space on NW corner of property, and replace with expanded mall space plus out parcel build outs similar to Cheesecake Factory. Calculate size of garages based on maximum use. Print money. The end.

Yea, I've mentioned that before. Expand the parking garage to the north and add a big new one on the SW corner, right at the NW Expressway and Penn intersection. Multiple ingress/egress for both. Eliminate most if not all surface parking except for absolute overflow space on NW corner of property, and replace with expanded mall space plus out parcel build outs similar to Cheesecake Factory. Calculate size of garages based on maximum use. Print money. The end.

Like.

If Penn Square Mall really had as many stores on the waiting list as I've heard people say they do, I wonder why they DON'T do this. It seems like a slam dunk to me for Simon Properties and the city of OKC. Furthermore, how are "filler" stores like Image and Windsor getting in if Penn Square has a waiting list?

maybe something is in the works

Yea, I've mentioned that before. Expand the parking garage to the north and add a big new one on the SW corner, right at the NW Expressway and Penn intersection. Multiple ingress/egress for both. Eliminate most if not all surface parking except for absolute overflow space on NW corner of property, and replace with expanded mall space plus out parcel build outs similar to Cheesecake Factory. Calculate size of garages based on maximum use. Print money. The end.

The current garage is never full even at Christmas, most of the time it is way underutilized. Outside of legal requirements they might even be able to add another full department store without adding any parking given how much in the back and garage are still empty at the Christmas rush.

I'm not trying to fix the mall's parking issues; I'm trying to maximize sales for the property. My point is the elimination of surface parking. The Galleria in Dallas is an example of this approach. Fully-wrapped with easy-to-access structured parking. PSM outperforms most malls in the U.S. on a per-square-foot basis and has remained immune to the deflation of the mall industry, and should further exploit their position in the market.

Considering the sales per square foot PSM rings, the surface lots represent many, many millions in lost sales.

I'm not trying to fix the mall's parking issues; I'm trying to maximize sales for the property. My point is the elimination of surface parking. The Galleria in Dallas is an example of this approach. Fully-wrapped with easy-to-access structured parking. PSM outperforms most malls in the U.S. on a per-square-foot basis and has remained immune to the deflation of the mall industry, and should further exploit their position in the market.

Considering the sales per square foot PSM rings, the surface lots represent many, many millions in lost sales.

That is how Southpark Mall in Charlotte is as well. The biggest problem I can see with doing that is the phase during construction. The mall would be a huge mess and the existing parking problems compounded exponentially until the construction is complete. It might even jeopardize the continued profitability of the existing stores during the transition phase. I am sure that is taken into consideration when it comes to a complete remodel/expansion.

It would have to be phased; no question. I would probably start with expansion of the garage in back and then rework curbing and traffic controls to funnel most people to that garage while the other is constructed. Mall expansion would be the last phase. I could probably also be persuaded to do the other garage first if that made more sense.

Either way there would need to be a much more comprehensive approach taken to the traffic plan than there is today. Ingress, egress, stacking; it would all have to be carefully designed not only to FORCE use of the garages but also to make people WANT to use them. They would need to make parking at the mall quicker, easier and more intuitive than it is right now, which would not be impossible.

By the way - despite the public's general dislike of garages - there are some distinct advantages that come from structured parking which could actually improve sales during some of our weather extremes.

PSM is currently in an enviable position compared to other enclosed suburban-style malls around the country, but as more shopping options come online in the metro (especially upscale options) they will need to innovate to remain relevant.

It would have to be phased; no question. I would probably start with expansion of the garage in back and then rework curbing and traffic controls to funnel most people to that garage while the other is constructed. Mall expansion would be the last phase. I could probably also be persuaded to do the other garage first if that made more sense.

Either way there would need to be a much more comprehensive approach taken to the traffic plan than there is today. Ingress, egress, stacking; it would all have to be carefully designed not only to FORCE use of the garages but also to make people WANT to use them. They would need to make parking at the mall quicker, easier and more intuitive than it is right now, which would not be impossible.

By the way - despite the public's general dislike of garages - there are some distinct advantages that come from structured parking which could actually improve sales during some of our weather extremes.

PSM is currently in an enviable position compared to other enclosed suburban-style malls around the country, but as more shopping options come online in the metro (especially upscale options) they will need to innovate to remain relevant.

I think the OKC public in general is simply not used to parking garages and have this perception of them as being unsafe like you see in the movies. When you think parking garage, you think of that scene with a single woman late at night being chased by a robber with a knife or a gun through a garage. You find a reluctance to use garages in about any small city in the US that doesn't have much experience with them. That of course can be changed with the right kind of development and I think its definitely possible at Penn Square. You seem to have a pretty solid idea so why not write Simon Properties with that suggestion?

They are all about walkability....INSIDE their mall. Go there any day, any night and there are people walking all over the place.

Not sure why anyone thinks it greatly important to walk a quarter mile from WalMart to the mall to go shopping. You aren't going to haul goods from one place to the other. And, hiking across big parking lots and streets isn't recreational. PSM isn't looking for WalMart shoppers and WM doesn't expect those out for a day of shopping at PSM to come window shop at WM. Both know their markets.

PSM has dynamically changed over the years to remain the premier shopping destination in central Oklahoma. NWX/Classen is now looking likely for LRT in 10-15 years. Is PSM paying attention to changes around them, or are they too fixated on their perceived competition on Memorial Road and the Edmond demographic? How will they ride the next wave of change, which is coming, and stay on top?

They are trying to be the best Quail Springs Mall they can be. I would contend they should look more at Lenox Square and Galleria Dallas/Houston for sustainable success. They need to create destination rather than chase one ofthecity's high-end demographic clusters. The strength PSM has over QSM is that OKC's high earners are spread out in all directions at all distances. This isn't Tulsa where you locate go to 71st and Yale and call it done.

I think the OKC public in general is simply not used to parking garages and have this perception of them as being unsafe like you see in the movies. When you think parking garage, you think of that scene with a single woman late at night being chased by a robber with a knife or a gun through a garage. You find a reluctance to use garages in about any small city in the US that doesn't have much experience with them. That of course can be changed with the right kind of development and I think its definitely possible at Penn Square. You seem to have a pretty solid idea so why not write Simon Properties with that suggestion?

What is perception is reality, at least in Penn Squares case. I have a lawyer friend who has represented multiple parties in criminal cases that happened at the Penn Square garage. He basically has said dont ever park in the garage. Sounds like Penn is very negligent in their patrolling and security of the garage because there have been many robberies, muggings, and rapes.

What is perception is reality, at least in Penn Squares case. I have a lawyer friend who has represented multiple parties in criminal cases that happened at the Penn Square garage. He basically has said dont ever park in the garage. Sounds like Penn is very negligent in their patrolling and security of the garage because there have been many robberies, muggings, and rapes.

I've been parking there for years without incident. This is somewhat surprising to me.

I've been parking there for years without incident. This is somewhat surprising to me.

Well obviously it doesnt happen to everyone. And from what he says, being a female makes you more of a target.

What is perception is reality, at least in Penn Squares case. I have a lawyer friend who has represented multiple parties in criminal cases that happened at the Penn Square garage. He basically has said dont ever park in the garage. Sounds like Penn is very negligent in their patrolling and security of the garage because there have been many robberies, muggings, and rapes.

I see them patrolling often. Never have seen a problem. I think there is some urband legend being spread here. Someone told someone told someone. What are the FACTS, not the heresay anecdotes?

PSM has dynamically changed over the years to remain the premier shopping destination in central Oklahoma. NWX/Classen is now looking likely for LRT in 10-15 years. Is PSM paying attention to changes around them, or are they too fixated on their perceived competition on Memorial Road and the Edmond demographic? How will they ride the next wave of change, which is coming, and stay on top?

They are trying to be the best Quail Springs Mall they can be. I would contend they should look more at Lenox Square and Galleria Dallas/Houston for sustainable success. They need to create destination rather than chase one ofthecity's high-end demographic clusters. The strength PSM has over QSM is that OKC's high earners are spread out in all directions at all distances. This isn't Tulsa where you locate go to 71st and Yale and call it done.

Penn is going to be in a world of hurt when Von maur opens. And then even more so if H&M opens up.

Quail is going to be in a world of hurt in ten years when Von Maur and H&M go into Waterloo Deer Creek Plaza.

Penn is going to be in a world of hurt when Von maur opens. And then even more so if H&M opens up.

This will help Quail more than it will hurt Penn near term. Quail Springs needs this as without it its already showing early signs of becoming Crossroads. That said, Penn can't sit by idly. Far north OKC/Deer Creek/Edmond each year is creeping more towards that critical mass of high income rooftops that OKC has long lacked. If more and more top-tier, new-to-market stores opt for Quail over Penn in the coming years, that could spell trouble down the road for Penn.

I see them patrolling often. Never have seen a problem. I think there is some urband legend being spread here. Someone told someone told someone. What are the FACTS, not the heresay anecdotes?

Well, it is from a friend that's been directly involved in multiple cases from something in the parking garage, and has seen reports of all criminal activity there so its not really hearsay. Not trying to scare anyone, Ive never been scared the few times parking in it. But just saying I probably wouldn't if I was female and alone, and probably not at night.

I'm not sure that I agree that Deer Creek/Far North OKC is achieving critical mass of high-income rooftops. Surveying that area on Google Earth, I see high-income neighborhoods like Gaillardia, Rose Creek, Mulholland and some others. I also see lots of traditional neighborhoods of $200-300K houses, as well as smaller patio-type homes, all packed together like sardines. And the truly high-end neighborhoods are scattered among these instead of being strung together in interconnected ways.

On edit: I just spent more time on Google Earth and really took a look at east Edmond, for the first time in years, over along Coltrane north from Oakdale up to Tall Oaks and up to Faircloud and other neighborhoods surrounding and farther north. Now, If those areas were interspersed with the aforementioned nicer neighborhoods in Deer Creek/west Edmond and you threw in Oak Tree, without the cookie cutter in between, then you really would have a high concentration. But as usual in OKC metro, even in generally higher-than-average Edmond, the truly upscale areas are disconnected from each other. Sorry to derail the "Penn Square Mall" thread.

On edit: I just spent more time on Google Earth and really took a look at east Edmond, for the first time in years, over along Coltrane north from Oakdale up to Tall Oaks and up to Faircloud and other neighborhoods surrounding and farther north. Now, If those areas were interspersed with the aforementioned nicer neighborhoods in Deer Creek/west Edmond and you threw in Oak Tree, without the cookie cutter in between, then you really would have a high concentration. But as usual in OKC metro, even in generally higher-than-average Edmond, the truly upscale areas are disconnected from each other. Sorry to derail the "Penn Square Mall" thread.Unfortunately, Edmond is being bombarded with short term lifespan tract housing. Very few upscale or high-end housing developments are underway in Edmond. :/

On edit: I just spent more time on Google Earth and really took a look at east Edmond, for the first time in years, over along Coltrane north from Oakdale up to Tall Oaks and up to Faircloud and other neighborhoods surrounding and farther north. Now, If those areas were interspersed with the aforementioned nicer neighborhoods in Deer Creek/west Edmond and you threw in Oak Tree, without the cookie cutter in between, then you really would have a high concentration. But as usual in OKC metro, even in generally higher-than-average Edmond, the truly upscale areas are disconnected from each other. Sorry to derail the "Penn Square Mall" thread.

Why is it that in OKC development always ends up like that? I've never seen another city developed in this way. Until this changes, OKC will never reach its full potential in terms of retail development. The large national retailers live and die by the spreadsheet and its very difficult if not impossible to convince them to depart from their formula, even with facts and logic.

Unfortunately, Edmond is being bombarded with short term lifespan tract housing. Very few upscale or high-end housing developments are underway in Edmond. :/

You need to get out more. There is more upscale being built, and recently built in Edmond than anywhere else in OKC. Check the building permits in the paper and go actually drive around.

You need to get out more. There is more upscale being built, and recently built in Edmond than anywhere else in OKC. Check the building permits in the paper and go actually drive around.Are you for real man? You just can't resist the urge to argue with people, can you..... Rover, I am extremely aware and am out every day. I attend city council meeting on a near regular basis and have friends in real-estate that keep me up to date on what is going on. I drive around at least once a week specifically to look for clearing of land and to track new developments and take pictures of it. Give me a break dude.

There is new upscale development being built, but there is waaaaaaaaaaaay more cheap tract housing and apartments being built. They are even being built in between the more expensive homes. Even plats on Fairfax Estates were scaled down and made smaller on the north eastern end. Rover, you're wrong.

With Von Maur and H&M coming to Quail Springs and other upscale tenants coming down the pipes, how will Penn Square respond? With retail all over the metro stepping it up a notch Penn Square is in danger of losing their status as the metro's premier shopping destination if they don't adapt. Pete, are you aware of anything big happening at Penn Square in the near future?

I'm surprised that PSM hasn't announced a mall expansion.

It's not exactly in the mall nor retail, but isn't Texas de Brazil coming to Penn Square?

It's not exactly in the mall nor retail, but isn't Texas de Brazil coming to Penn Square?

Yes! Follow the auto-generated link in your post.

Thanks, Pete. Was actually meant to be a bit of an answer to bchris about big things happening in Penn Square, but I hadn't heard anything about it since my last post back in March. So it's still happening, then. Was afraid that may have been a dream... I love that place!

Texas de Brazil will be awesome. It will be the first restaurant of its kind in OKC. However, won't that be in an outparcel? Also, it doesn't compare to Von Maur, H&M, Chisolm Creek, or the possible changes at Classen Curve/NHP. Penn Square is going to have some serious competition and will need to step up its game if it is to remain the premier upscale shopping center in the metro.