Sounds like you have something in mind.

Sounds like you have something in mind.

At first, my wife thought the rendering of the pool showed a clothing optional venue. That would certainly change the vibe of the neighborhood.

I love this project and cannot wait for it to be finished and for residents to move in. However, I can see Rover's point on this one. The retail to me looks a lot like the retail at the Legacy down the street. I also would prefer a better mix of retail like some boutiques or even a place to buy a pack of gum. I spend the majority of my life in Midtown these days. If I had the money to fix up my house to sell it I would seriously look at this place to rent.

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Maybe something more like this. Real storefronts where you have large windows for window displays and a ceiling height that allows for some merchandising display options inside the store. You bring the outdoor inside and the inside outdoors. You have some overhead protection from sun, rain, etc. to promote window shopping. Build relationships between the pedestrians and the shops. Don't rely on the building only to draw the interest, but let the interest come from what is inside.

You have to love the irony, you posted the artist rendition of the Santana Row picture that I posted.

This:
3824

Is this:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4wj97SRLoM4/TWq0J0CPC3I/AAAAAAAAKmE/ZACdB8nt8n8/s1600/architecture_nb_01-2.jpg

LOL. Works for me. Actually looks like storefronts retailers would want to be a part of.

Here's a more modest approach, maybe more fitting of the Edge style.
3825

That's not bad - nice big windows that allow people from the sidewalk to see in easily.

http://edgemidtown.com/images/bg.jpg

I see floor-to-ceiling windows. I would concede that the mature tree probably blocks some of the storefront visibility, yet that tree won't be near that mature for a very long time. The flock of birds won't always be that well formed, either... not to be flippant :p

What specifically has Brooks neglected?

As for what pornographical accoutrements the sex shop should carry, I'd say that is best left to the collective imagination of a few Heritage Hills residents lol

I was mostly looking forward to the lingerie being dried on the balconies by HH got that shut down.

As for store fronts and not to speak for Rover - but I think the issue is that the first level retail has the same ceiling height as the other floors where the pictures of other developments show ceiling height that 1.5 to 2 time taller than the floors above. It gives the stores more sidewalk appeal than the rest of the building. If I remember correctly though, there were height restrictions that might have prevented taller retail space.

It the difference between - 'here is retail with residential above' and 'here is residential with some retail', which might be fine for this area, but I would expect something along 10th to accentuate the retail more.

It is a place where retail will be allowed. It is not a place that encourages retail. It will fail to attract the kind of retail that will make it an exciting neighborhood. It is like calling a 7-11 a grocery store because you can buy milk and bread there. But I am sure some on here think the Legacy retail shops are great retail space too. It fits a textbook definition and is on the sidewalk so it must be good, right?

If you refer back to the earlier drawing at the top of this thread, they have since jammed another apartment balcony (another apartment?) on the corner directly above the retail. In the earlier rendering the window arrangement still seems to indicate an apartment might be above, and is not retail-optimal, but the new drawing with balcony added certainly gives the impression of a lower ceiling and de-emphasizes the retail below. It also appears that it would make signage very difficult (signs above would overlap the balcony), again hampering retail appeal.

I think if they would have stuck with the original corner configuration, opened up the corner retail with high windows and high ceilings - sacrificing the apartment on the second floor - it would go a long way toward addressing Rover's complaints. Not all (or even any) of the other retail needs high ceilings, but having a more dramatic presence on that corner would communicate to passers-by that "hey, there is retail in this building...", something that I believe you currently have to actively look for to find.

It's obvious that the second floor apartment exists to wring a little more rent out of the square footage,which is certainly understandable. But when all of the decisions made are based on value/finance, you can easily miss big-picture ways of finding/retaining value in other areas.

I do love the corner railing and outdoor dining as shown in the rendering. What a great spot that would be to hang out.

It is a place where retail will be allowed. It is not a place that encourages retail. It will fail to attract the kind of retail that will make it an exciting neighborhood. It is like calling a 7-11 a grocery store because you can buy milk and bread there. But I am sure some on here think the Legacy retail shops are great retail space too. It fits a textbook definition and is on the sidewalk so it must be good, right?

Legacy aren't successful partly because the owner charges high rent and only allows the cheap green awnings. There are flaws in execution all around, not the ceiling height inside.

$14 a foot seems about right for a downtown location with built in foot traffic. I don't know about build-out allowances, length of leases, credit required, etc. on Legacy.

We can both agree Legacy is a fail for retail, yet meets the clinical definition of retail and is "urban" and I guess qualifies the project as mixed use". I would hope we would learn and quit TALKING about creating real retail and actually design it in as a priority. Right now developers are looking to add as little as possible that will give them a PR bump and help them get the project approved. Not one of the new developments has shown they are serious about providing a proper retail opportunity.

Not one of the new developments has shown they are serious about providing a proper retail opportunity.

True, maybe someday there will be a retail developer who wants to sprinkle in some residences rather than residential developers who throw a bone out to retail.

We already have McNellie's which is a smash success, and Fassler Hall and Dust Bowl are coming.

Pete, forgive me, but I must have missed this announcement...

If you refer back to the earlier drawing at the top of this thread, they have since jammed another apartment balcony (another apartment?) on the corner directly above the retail. In the earlier rendering the window arrangement still seems to indicate an apartment might be above, and is not retail-optimal, but the new drawing with balcony added certainly gives the impression of a lower ceiling and de-emphasizes the retail below. It also appears that it would make signage very difficult (signs above would overlap the balcony), again hampering retail appeal.

I think if they would have stuck with the original corner configuration, opened up the corner retail with high windows and high ceilings - sacrificing the apartment on the second floor - it would go a long way toward addressing Rover's complaints. Not all (or even any) of the other retail needs high ceilings, but having a more dramatic presence on that corner would communicate to passers-by that "hey, there is retail in this building...", something that I believe you currently have to actively look for to find.

It's obvious that the second floor apartment exists to wring a little more rent out of the square footage,which is certainly understandable. But when all of the decisions made are based on value/finance, you can easily miss big-picture ways of finding/retaining value in other areas.

I do love the corner railing and outdoor dining as shown in the rendering. What a great spot that would be to hang out.

One view is the NE corner, the second is the SE corner; 3 balconies on the SE corner.

Not one of the new developments has shown they are serious about providing a proper retail opportunity.

I kind of think the best place for something like this would be automobile alley. The ground level store fronts are generally good for adapting to retail and there is a lot of opportunity for offices and lofts on the 2nd and third floors. It also has very good access to the freeways and it is easily accessible from downtown hospitality infrastructure, DD, and MidTown. But I think for it to really reach a critical mass, it needs infill so that it's contiguous storefronts from 5th to at least 10th, and they need to move ground floor office space to the upper floors and replace them with retail. AA already has a head start with the specialty shops that have moved in, but it's still too disjointed to really become a 5-8 block retail district in the same vein as the examples above.

Another opportunity for some sort of true mixed use development with a serious emphasis on first level retail is with new construction on the empty lots in Midtown from 10th to 8th between Walker and Hudson or possibly down to Harvey, too.

You are right the Edge is not a retail centric project and nothing it is doing should lead anyone to proclaim that retail has arrived downtown, but there are still a lot of opportunities for that in the core. My guess is that not until Maywood / DD and the Edge are full will we see some serious retail efforts. And the streetcar may guide where and in what way that happens, as any smart developer will want retail on that line as it maximizes visibility and essentially funnels the traffic right past all of the storefronts.

One view is the NE corner, the second is the SE corner; 3 balconies on the SE corner.
Ah, that's helpful. Nevertheless, it would benefit the retail to have BOTH corners built with more defined entrances. Even if the above apartments were merely reconfigured a bit to allow high ceilings in the VESTIBULES ONLY, it would help define the entrances and put more emphasis on the retail space.

The store fronts could be better, but to say they're terrible and won't attract any exciting retail or restaurants/bars (which I actually prefer) is a little ridiculous. Midtown Houston has a bunch of store fronts like this under apartments that are very similar to The Edge. At least as of the last time I stayed with a friend there (summer 2012), the area has become very vibrant and has attracted a pretty decent amount of retail as well as many restaurants and bars. Midtown Houston is very similar to what ours is becoming, and I think ours has potential to be much better. It has a few old renovated buildings, townhouses, apartments with retail, condos, a bunch of restaurants in buildings similar to Louie's and Stella, and I believe a hotel or two.

382738283829

If you refer back to the earlier drawing at the top of this thread, they have since jammed another apartment balcony (another apartment?) on the corner directly above the retail. In the earlier rendering the window arrangement still seems to indicate an apartment might be above, and is not retail-optimal, but the new drawing with balcony added certainly gives the impression of a lower ceiling and de-emphasizes the retail below. It also appears that it would make signage very difficult (signs above would overlap the balcony), again hampering retail appeal.

I think if they would have stuck with the original corner configuration, opened up the corner retail with high windows and high ceilings - sacrificing the apartment on the second floor - it would go a long way toward addressing Rover's complaints. Not all (or even any) of the other retail needs high ceilings, but having a more dramatic presence on that corner would communicate to passers-by that "hey, there is retail in this building...", something that I believe you currently have to actively look for to find.

It's obvious that the second floor apartment exists to wring a little more rent out of the square footage,which is certainly understandable. But when all of the decisions made are based on value/finance, you can easily miss big-picture ways of finding/retaining value in other areas.

I do love the corner railing and outdoor dining as shown in the rendering. What a great spot that would be to hang out.

I think that the low floor-to-ceiling clearances in the one rendering versus the other has more to do with the slope of the site. There is a slight hill up toward Dewey I believe.

Pete, forgive me, but I must have missed this announcement...

It's not official yet, but the word is that those 2 great Tulsa concepts are going into a new structure (yet to be built) east of 10th and Walker.

It's not official yet, but the word is that those 2 great Tulsa concepts are going into a new structure (yet to be built) east of 10th and Walker.

Very interesting, dan. Any link or is this just word on the street?

The store fronts could be better, but to say they're terrible and won't attract any exciting retail or restaurants/bars (which I actually prefer) is a little ridiculous. Midtown Houston has a bunch of store fronts like this under apartments that are very similar to The Edge. At least as of the last time I stayed with a friend there (summer 2012), the area has become very vibrant and has attracted a pretty decent amount of retail as well as many restaurants and bars. Midtown Houston is very similar to what ours is becoming, and I think ours has potential to be much better. It has a few old renovated buildings, townhouses, apartments with retail, condos, a bunch of restaurants in buildings similar to Louie's and Stella, and I believe a hotel or two.

382738283829

Hope you are right and retailers are lined up for this excellent space. I would love nothing more than to be wrong on this. I just happen to think we are setting the bar very low and happy to meet it.

Very interesting, dan. Any link or is this just word on the street?

Word on the street.

Hope you are right and retailers are lined up for this excellent space. I would love nothing more than to be wrong on this. I just happen to think we are setting the bar very low and happy to meet it.

I don't know that you could be "wrong" on this. This is obviously a very ridiculous example, but if Versace occupied a space in the Edge, it still doesn't change the fact that the development is not built as such that retail comes into focus from the street level as much as it otherwise could. Getting quality retail in developments that don't show some of the characteristics you are asking for does not change the fact that we genuinely should strive to adapt our developments to better suit retail if retail is a component of that development.

Very interesting, dan. Any link or is this just word on the street?

Dust Bowl-Fassler Midtown Okc, LLC - Oklahoma Company Profile (People Search and Company Search) (http://www.bizapedia.com/ok/DUST-BOWL-FASSLER-MIDTOWN-OKC-LLC.html)

http://www.okctalk.com/other-urban-development/9320-general-midtown-thread-60.html#post626008

Dust Bowl-Fassler Midtown Okc, LLC - Oklahoma Company Profile (People Search and Company Search) (http://www.bizapedia.com/ok/DUST-BOWL-FASSLER-MIDTOWN-OKC-LLC.html)

http://www.okctalk.com/other-urban-development/9320-general-midtown-thread-60.html#post626008

Thanks, Boulder.

We are pretty certain that MidtownR is planning a major development on the old Red Cross site that MBD Inc couldnt get a medical building developed on.

I suspect we may see the bar raised, not to mention this development will be strategically located A, along the streetcar, and B, in a location that ties together the Plaza Court with the emerging Robinson corridor.

From yesterday courtesy catch22:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/level61513a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/level61513b.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/level61513c.jpg

I am sitting at my office on the 4th floor at 9th and Robinson on the north side of the building and just realized that this building is going to have a major impact on my view to the northwest. I can already see the structure from here with the little bit they have done so far.

I didn't realize how massive this structure was. Definitely need to see in person.

You will need to see it in person. I think you can only tell how much of an elevation change the site has in person.

You will need to see it in person. I think you can only tell how much of an elevation change the site has in person.

Indeed. This project feels like Aloft in terms of photos not doing justice of how dominant this structure is. This project is massive and I can't wait to see it completed.

You will need to see it in person. I think you can only tell how much of an elevation change the site has in person.

The NE and SE corners are at elevation 1,248 while the NW corner is at 1,240 and the SW corner is at 1,238 feet.

I didn't realize how massive this structure was. Definitely need to see in person.

Pete said the new photos were courtesy of you. How did you take them without being there in person?

Pete said the new photos were courtesy of you. How did you take them without being there i person?

I didn't realize how massive this structure was (until I saw it in person). (You) definitely need to see it in person.

I didn't realize how massive this structure was (until I saw it in person). (You) definitely need to see it in person.

LOL. A few assumed words certainly make a difference.

The NE and SE corners are at elevation 1,248 while the NW corner is at 1,240 and the SW corner is at 1,238 feet.

So that explains perfectly why the storefronts along Walker are not as tall as the ones along Dewey.

I didn't realize how massive this structure was (until I saw it in person). (You) definitely need to see it in person.

Don't worry, Catch, I got your drift without you having to spell it out.

Don't worry, Catch, I got your drift without you having to spell it out.

I don't think Catch has any reason to worry but I'm sure he feels much better knowing that you understood.

Some people just have to get digs in, no matter how important it might be.

So that explains perfectly why the storefronts along Walker are not as tall as the ones along Dewey.

Maybe - but cities all over the world are built on hills and manage to do it. In fact, go look at the old KerrMac building that Sandridge tore down and you will see that it stair-stepped down Robinson to avoid having low ceilings on the north side of the building.

Yeah, the low storefronts were a choice; they could have sacrificed a wee bit of living footage above to allow for some more pronounced frontage. Like I said, just doing it on the corners would have made a huge difference. That said, I'd still give the place a B+ or even A- overall, relative to this market. It's going to be a great addition.

Yeah, the low storefronts were a choice; they could have sacrificed a wee bit of living footage above to allow for some more pronounced frontage. Like I said, just doing it on the corners would have made a huge difference. That said, I'd still give the place a B+ or even A- overall, relative to this market. It's going to be a great addition.

No doubt. With modern construction, materials, and engineering techniques - everything is a choice. It might be a choice between time, money, and aesthetics (or even 'didn't think about') - but it is still a choice. There is no such thing as "couldn't do it"

Yes, this is a great project. It may not optimize retail potential, but it is an apartment building, not a shopping center. I hope my comments weren't taken as being too critical or overly negative. Just always wanting things to be the best they can be.

Maybe - but cities all over the world are built on hills and manage to do it. In fact, go look at the old KerrMac building that Sandridge tore down and you will see that it stair-stepped down Robinson to avoid having low ceilings on the north side of the building.

Sorry, can't appreciate an old building that we tore down for grass... :butbutbut

Maybe - but cities all over the world are built on hills and manage to do it. In fact, go look at the old KerrMac building that Sandridge tore down and you will see that it stair-stepped down Robinson to avoid having low ceilings on the north side of the building.Sorry, can't appreciate an old building that we tore down for grass... :butbutbut

It still lives in StreetView.

StreetView is a time machine. Anyone want to see Skid Row on Sheridan and pre- Devon Energy Center and old Myriad Gardens...

I saw the Google car driving down NW 23rd a week or two ago. Maybe we're getting new StreetView soon.

I saw the Google car driving down NW 23rd a week or two ago. Maybe we're getting new StreetView soon.Next time you see a google street car, drive ahead of it, get out and make sure it's coming towards you, and do something VERY strange. You might get featured on the news lol.

I saw the Google car driving down NW 23rd a week or two ago. Maybe we're getting new StreetView soon.

Or better yet, flag 'em down and ask who you can contact at Google to find out when OKC is going to be upgraded to HD Streetview. I've seen the most desolate portions of the Southwest US in HD streetview, yet OKC is still in Streetview 2006 mode!

Saw a Google car headed north on I-235 this morning, out of downtown.

Next time you see a google street car, drive ahead of it, get out and make sure it's coming towards you, and do something VERY strange. You might get featured on the news lol.

I'm really surprised people don't prank the street view car more often. People should reenact scenes from movies and stuff. If I knew the car was coming by, I'd dress up like Jason Voorhees with a machete and stand half-concealed in some bushes.

I'm really surprised people don't prank the street view car more often. People should reenact scenes from movies and stuff. If I knew the car was coming by, I'd dress up like Jason Voorhees with a machete and stand half-concealed in some bushes.

Like this guy?

_iLqpXK-w18

i3eU73Nc11Q

Saw a Google car headed north on I-235 this morning, out of downtown.

They are definitely around.

Where is Street View ? Street View ? Google Maps (http://www.google.com/help/maps/streetview/learn/where-is-street-view.html)

The Edge (June 24 2013) - a set on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/williamhider/sets/72157634312637728/)

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2828/9128254793_2718ac4860_b.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7366/9128209001_0aba5ff47f_b.jpg

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5523/9130461774_19fe6f51a5_b.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3765/9128233077_ee59c192b0_b.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7320/9128220265_cd7e992a5e_b.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7341/9130422906_22b57b3c7a_b.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7345/9128557039_a10334f903_h.jpg

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5483/9130767862_11d45ad249_h.jpg

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2824/9130766486_31a7a35581_h.jpg

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http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7330/9128552683_3ebb586a3b_h.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3795/9128552493_2ee35ce598_h.jpg

Video will be later.

http://youtu.be/HVA621QNuA0

The Edge (June 24 2013) - YouTube (http://youtu.be/HVA621QNuA0)

That's incredible to see, they're really moving along fast.

I take it this is the parking garage? I'm assuming most of the complex will be stick built?

Yes, that's the parking garage that is in the south/central part of the complex.

http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/urban-development-buildings/2942d1354117865-edge-%40-midtown-edge2.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7330/9128552683_3ebb586a3b_h.jpg

40664067

An example of what Rover was alluding to earlier.

http://edgemidtown.com/images/bg.jpg

To make sure I understand the layout of this correctly: the corner closest to us in this picture will be on the NW corner of NW 12th and Walker, correct?