I am sure there are NO ignorant backwoods urban dwellers or wanabes. Just because a couple of people in hh and mp are clueless you guys resort to childish name calling. I thought the enlightened among us might not be so harsh and judgmental. This is the "creative class" talking? The cool group?

Honestly the folks in Heritage Hills have valid concerns. Look at the history of OKC's apartment complexes and yeah... these might be nice right now, but what will they be like in 10 or 20 years? If you've bought a home in HH with the intent of living there the rest of your life, then this is a valid concern.

Here's one example. Do you remember when these "luxury" apartments were built all over NW OKC 12-15 years ago and how they were the "best of the best:"

http://www.apartmentguide.com/apartments/Oklahoma/Oklahoma-City/Forest-Creek/5946/

Well, now they are literally Section 8:

http://www.gosection8.com/Section-8-housing-in-OKLAHOMA-CITY-OK/2-bedroom-2-bathroom-rental-Apt/4097412

Same complex.

I think that these Mid-Town units look very nice, but I am playing devil's advocate here. No one knows what the future holds. I don't think it is fair to just brush off the folks in HH's opinions... that is naive. I think folks who are supporting this project need to be realistic and consider their concerns and think about how you might counter them.

Questor, you've got a point - especially when it comes to suburban complexes (though there quite a few vintage complexes that also have held up quite nicely). I'm curious as to whether the same dynamics hold up with complexes in the immediate downtown area, where vast land space comes at a premium. Sycamore Square is 30 years old. Regency Tower is almost 50 years old. Yet I'd challenge anyone to say they are anything but top notch assets for downtown. I'm not aware of any major apartment development built in the last 40 years that went Section 8.

Honestly the folks in Heritage Hills have valid concerns. Look at the history of OKC's apartment complexes and yeah... these might be nice right now, but what will they be like in 10 or 20 years? If you've bought a home in HH with the intent of living there the rest of your life, then this is a valid concern.

Here's one example. Do you remember when these "luxury" apartments were built all over NW OKC 12-15 years ago and how they were the "best of the best:"

http://www.apartmentguide.com/apartments/Oklahoma/Oklahoma-City/Forest-Creek/5946/

Well, now they are literally Section 8:

http://www.gosection8.com/Section-8-housing-in-OKLAHOMA-CITY-OK/2-bedroom-2-bathroom-rental-Apt/4097412

Same complex.

I think that these Mid-Town units look very nice, but I am playing devil's advocate here. No one knows what the future holds. I don't think it is fair to just brush off the folks in HH's opinions... that is naive. I think folks who are supporting this project need to be realistic and consider their concerns and think about how you might counter them.
One thing about Forest Creek, it was built as tax credit housing unlike many of the other complexes that were built out in NW OKC. So even from its inception it has always had people receiving assistance living in there, in fact there were income limits for people not receiving assistance if they wanted to live there. There is also another property that was built with the same type of HUD assistance in Edmond on 15th between Broadway and Kelly. There was much protest from area residents to both complexes being built using this finance method.

I lived in Northgreen (changed to Lincoln Greens while I lived there) when I moved back from Dallas in 1993, it was a very nice complex and most of those in the NW 122nd & Penn area were considered nice at that time. Later I lived in Pinehurst around NW 122nd & MacArthur (1995) and The Invitational at NW 122nd & Portland (1996-98) and none of those at that time were be considered anything but nice. I know the NW 122nd & Penn area has really gone downhill since then. I think the large clusters of apartments together tends to lead to an entire complex going downhill like the 122nd & Penn area. The large clusters of the 70's in my parents area (West OKC) has really driven the decline of that area with the ones along NW 10th & NW 23rd Streets. I think the suburban ones that are a bit more spread out tend to survive the onslaught of newer properties better. The nature of people in suburbia is to move along to somewhere else perceived as "safer" whenever things get marginally questionable in their existing neighborhood which contributes to a decline, that definitely happened in apartments and later the houses follow. Very few of the long time residents in my parents neighborhood are still there, many having moved elsewhere in recent years. My parents have considered it as well even though they have been in that house for 46 years because their area has changed so much in recent years.

I don't think with the renewed focus on downtown/near downtown living that properties like The Edge stand less of a chance of moving down market like so like Steve stated, the property values of near downtown property make it so it will always be attractive to investors to maintain the property to generate the highest rents possible. I also don't think we will see a flight from those areas in the future like we did in the 70's when most of the job were fleeing downtown areas. That led to the abandonment of inner city complexes back then, I just don't see the same type of events happening in the future, the world is a bit different now.

You can see the next "apartment ghettos" forming - huge clusters popping up along Pennsylvania north of Memorial, more out on far west Memorial. It seems like it's more a question of custering and the very dynamic by Blue Dog. FYI - I too lived at Lincoln Greens in the mid-1990s, and yeah, it was a great place to live. I wouldn't dream of living there now.

Honestly the folks in Heritage Hills have valid concerns. Look at the history of OKC's apartment complexes and yeah... these might be nice right now, but what will they be like in 10 or 20 years? If you've bought a home in HH with the intent of living there the rest of your life, then this is a valid concern. ...

But, that cuts both ways. Depending on when one bought in HH with intent to stay forever, there was either a crumbling dead hospital or an empty lot with uncertain future, a lot that might be rezoned to any number of uses. And yet they bought with all that uncertainty, only to complain now, and raise complaints that in some respects are not even remotely valid, e.g., the grid is a different grid if I read the paper right.

The whole we dinna know aspect is also downright comical considering who some of the players appear to have been. And that concept of DT and its development is somehow leeching off HH? Well, I watch comedy central so that's not the best line I have ever heard, but it did merit a chuckle.

Honestly the folks in Heritage Hills have valid concerns. Look at the history of OKC's apartment complexes and yeah... these might be nice right now, but what will they be like in 10 or 20 years? If you've bought a home in HH with the intent of living there the rest of your life, then this is a valid concern.

Here's one example. Do you remember when these "luxury" apartments were built all over NW OKC 12-15 years ago and how they were the "best of the best:"

http://www.apartmentguide.com/apartments/Oklahoma/Oklahoma-City/Forest-Creek/5946/

Well, now they are literally Section 8:

http://www.gosection8.com/Section-8-housing-in-OKLAHOMA-CITY-OK/2-bedroom-2-bathroom-rental-Apt/4097412

Same complex.

I think that these Mid-Town units look very nice, but I am playing devil's advocate here. No one knows what the future holds. I don't think it is fair to just brush off the folks in HH's opinions... that is naive. I think folks who are supporting this project need to be realistic and consider their concerns and think about how you might counter them.

Well, then sustainability comes into play. There are a lot of things that go into sustainability as you know, including structural issues (which admittedly we can't know as much about other than that the proposal thus far seems pretty high-quality), and especially site plan and environmental features. This will be a LEED silver development. Furthermore, we know that the site plan and urban design of this project will give it lasting value in our city. People will fight to save this building 100 years from now.

I don't believe the comparison to addresses like 500,000 N. Penn are valid (or some ridiculously high address) because I don't believe that the temporary nature of these apartments derives simply from being apartments. I believe that the fact of their location is the biggest issue, along with poor structural considerations, cheap building materials, suburban site plan and un-interesting design, and so on.

Pretty sure 500,000 N Penn would be out in Guthrie somewhere. What' entirely ridiculous is this isn't outside the realm of possibility when it comes to Oklahoma City's ongoing sprawl.

I am sure there are NO ignorant backwoods urban dwellers or wanabes. Just because a couple of people in hh and mp are clueless you guys resort to childish name calling. I thought the enlightened among us might not be so harsh and judgmental. This is the "creative class" talking? The cool group?

Rover, anyone who wants to attribute this to 2-3 people is whistling in the dark. This isn't 2-3 people, it appears that the HH neighborhood has taken an official stance. The DDRC has received dozens of complaints from HH and MP residents, although obviously almost all from HH.

I am outraged that their outrage, based solely on misunderstandings (section 8 housing), unfounded innuendos (infrastructure concerns), fear mongering (traffic, crime concerns), ugly elitism (downtown exists because of us), and out-right lies (HH was "in the dark" about this very high-profile project) has gotten more attention and been given more credibility than the opposition to development projects like Bricktown House of Bedlam or SandRidge Commons.

When common people get together to oppose a development for the good of the city, based on facts and the hope for a higher development standard in this city, the powers that be do everything to ignore and marginalize them. When a bunch of elitists in HH get together and oppose a great development based on what I've outlined above as misunderstandings, unfounded innuendos, ugly elitism, half-truths, fear mongering, and out-right lies, people listen. That's what I'm outraged about.

There were about three dozen people at the Heritage Hills meeting Thursday night, the majority of them opposed to The Edge.

They are entitled to their opinions and opposition but the time for this was months and really years ago when there was an open, on-going process.

Now, they just want to serve as obstructionists and the reasons I've seen expressed are either completely incorrect or wildly selfish.

They are entitled to their opinions and opposition but the time for this was months and really years ago when there was an open, on-going process.

Now, they just want to serve as obstructionists and the reasons I've seen expressed are either completely incorrect or wildly selfish.
True, to state that last week was the "first time they had heard of this project" means they don't pay attention to anything outside of their own little bubble. I have lived 400 and now 600 miles away from OKC for almost 9 years and have known about the stuff going on at the old Mercy site for years. They are a block away and can't seem to be bothered enough to pay attention to it until the process has been fully vetted. I tend to believe the former HH president when he said that no one seemed to mind during the meeting. How many want to bet those who are upset now never made time to be at their neighborhood meetings for the past few years. Most neighborhood association have the same 10 people who are faithful participants and everyone else is too busy to be bothered with it until a "crisis" in their mind happens.

Those people in HH and MP had their chance to protest and frittered it away.

Here's a bit of irony: apparently Heritage Hills residents had previously been advised one great way to stay informed about things going on around their neighborhood, beyond reading The Oklahoman, is to keep up with OKC Talk and OKC Central...

In the end, this development will proceed. This protest has no real teeth.

I'm sure these protesters will be met with politeness but also dismissed without real consideration, as they've had ample time to raise these objections.

The e-mail from the Champions is embarrassing on so many levels to the point that it's barely worth commenting on. I hate to beat a dead horse, but the neighborhood shot themselves in the foot when they pushed for Overholser Green the first time around. At that time the writing was pretty well on the wall that condo financing was doomed & many on this board correctly predicted it would never get built. The Ellard project had financing at the ready but the neighborhood was unwilling to make any concessions as to retail on Walker or for-rent housing. The irony here is they will now end up with a 100% for-rent project of much lower quality than Marva's original proposal(which included condos), and retail on Walker. Lesson learned - taking a hardline stance can backfire. This thing is getting built.

I saw the downtown housing market in Austin develop while I lived there, some of the catalyst for condos was the apartments that went in prior by AMLI and The Gables groups and the additional apartments that went in during that building boom. It paved the way for the condos that went in and proved that downtown residential was wanted and viable. Granted it is a different financing culture right now for condos than at the time most of them were built in Austin but I still think for rent residential in Downtown OKC can be a catalyst for other downtown residential in OKC. The people financing such projects want there to be a proven market before they are willing to finance new projects, that was true even before the downturn and even truer today.

I do feel the mix is a bit off for The Edge, too many 1 bedrooms and not enough 2 bedrooms, with all the 1 bedrooms they are definitely targeting the younger, single market. I think The Monarch tower apartments in Austin has the bulk of 2 bedrooms and that has appealed to the empty nesters testing out downtown living before committing to buy a condo. Many sold their Westlake and Lakeway houses, moved into The Monarch and proceeded to buy a downtown condo after that experience. I think it takes all age groups to make downtown living in to a truly great living experience. I wish they would had more of a mix in the apartment types to foster that type of environment but overall The Edge should be a great project as a catalyst to more residential development in the downtown/near downtown areas.

And while I argued for Overholser Green back in the day, today I see huge value in RETAIL on Walker and being all for-rent. Get more young professionals living downtown, serve an actual market that exists. The economics behind apartments right now are very convincing whereas the economics behind condos have only gotten less and less compelling.

The economics for condos in Downtown/Near Downtown OKC could be improved greatly with existing residents in the area proving there is a need for new residential to be developed.

I saw the downtown housing market in Austin develop while I lived there, some of the catalyst for condos was the apartments that went in prior by AMLI and The Gables groups and the additional apartments that went in during that building boom. It paved the way for the condos that went in and proved that downtown residential was wanted and viable. Granted it is a different financing culture right now for condos than at the time most of them were built in Austin but I still think for rent residential in Downtown OKC can be a catalyst for other downtown residential in OKC. The people financing such projects want there to be a proven market before they are willing to finance new projects, that was true even before the downturn and even truer today.

I do feel the mix is a bit off for The Edge, too many 1 bedrooms and not enough 2 bedrooms, with all the 1 bedrooms they are definitely targeting the younger, single market. I think The Monarch tower apartments in Austin has the bulk of 2 bedrooms and that has appealed to the empty nesters testing out downtown living before committing to buy a condo. Many sold their Westlake and Lakeway houses, moved into The Monarch and proceeded to buy a downtown condo after that experience. I think it takes all age groups to make downtown living in to a truly great living experience. I wish they would had more of a mix in the apartment types to foster that type of environment but overall The Edge should be a great project as a catalyst to more residential development in the downtown/near downtown areas.

I think the mix of predominantly 1 bedroom apartments will be more stimulus for Mid-town though. More residents, not to mention more residents who will have disposable income and will support nightlife. Younger demographics support local retail and nightlife, whereas older demographics support more upscale retail (their dollars will go to Classen Curve, basically) and restaurants.

I also think that the young professional demographic is what's being targeted by Midtown Renaissance. This is about what direction the neighborhood wants to take, and a concerted effort on the young professional front will create synergy and image. If you're 25 and work for Devon or BOK or whoever, there will be a good chance you have friends that live in Mid-town. That's key.

If this turns out to be a sizable delegation from HH -- rather than just a few out-of-touch cranks -- and they insist on putting up a big stink with their silly claims, then they will squander any goodwill they may have had in their account.

This project is going to go forward just as planned and all they will have done is cast themselves as selfish elitists and lost a great deal of credibility for any future wars they may want to wage.

And that would be a huge shame, because many of them are true preservationists, which can always be an excellent voice of reason for urban advocacy.

True, but even good, well meaning folk can let emotion get in the way of their logic and common sense, to their own detriment. Perhaps they might calm in time. Once can hope.

I took a look at that PDF and this project is even more impressive than I imagined.

The dog park, the outdoor kitchen, the outdoor bar/terrace. The upper, middle, and lower courtyards taking advantage of the sloping elevation. I haven't even seen anything this nice out here in LA!

PLEASE let these NIMBY HH folks get ignored...

I took a look at that PDF and this project is even more impressive than I imagined.

The dog park, the outdoor kitchen, the outdoor bar/terrace. The upper, middle, and lower courtyards taking advantage of the sloping elevation. I haven't even seen anything this nice out here in LA!

PLEASE let these NIMBY HH folks get ignored...

>sarcasm on

I can only assume the 'dog park' will be used for dog fighting. It isn't octogon shaped is it?

>sarcasm off

And that would be a huge shame, because many of them are true preservationists, which can always be an excellent voice of reason for urban advocacy.

Very true. Having lived in HH for awhile and knowing many others who have lived or are currently living there, I can say that the core of the neighborhood is exactly the kind of people who value keeping historic buildings, creating neighborhoods and enhancing localized amenities. Quite a few are like the urban zealots that are adamantly supportive of their view of urban development. Most moved there because they were passionate about staying in touch with our history and civility...and they liked being near downtown. It would be a shame if this escalates to anything more than a dust-up.

I wholeheartedly agree, Rover. We'll just have to wait and see, I hope that our (the blogosphere) mass reaction against them has made them wake up and smell the coffee before they do themselves harm. Even if I might throw a few insults at them (like call them elitists, well tough %$!, they are) I really don't mean it, just as I sincerely hope nobody actually believes that downtown is where it is due to them. I just can't believe that was a serious statement.

Urban Neighbors is rightfully peeved. HH has to make this up to their more democratic neighbors to the south, whose territory this development is well within. But I certainly hope that nobody who didn't have their toes stepped on here (the rest of us) holds a lasting grudge against otherwise stalwart allies on the urban effort.

Though they are not responsible for downtown, they played their part as an oasis of stability which wasn't seen around them for many years. Neighborhoods deteriated all around them for years.

Very, very true.

So what do they want - a trophy? Many times people who were once part of the solution morph to become part of the problem. Downtown isn't their little thiefdom.

We don't get much fanfare but some of us old members of Oklahoma’s Own carried the rail transit water for several years, having inherited the job from people like Tom Elmore. We did it when no one else was interested and we kept the dream alive while it was our turn to do so. Eventually people with more resources and abilities took over. I know for myself, I am glad progress is being made on rail transit, no matter who gets the credit.

So maybe the HH people did keep their portion of downtown vibrant when no one else was interested, but the baton has been passed. It is now time for people with more resources, abilities, and vision to take over.

Well I certainly like the idea of their deep pocketbooks backing more historic preservation projects in the center city, so we don't want to alienate that, either.

Sitting in the meeting. The architect is giving the presentation now. Room is pretty full with limited seating left.

How many opposing HH homeowners are there?

they are lucky, owner could be putting a gas station there

How many opposing HH homeowners are there?

Hard to tell who is who quite yet. Chad Reynolds just gave a positive defense for the Edge.

Keep us posted! Thanks.

Photo from Urban Pioneer of today's DDRC meeting featuring (hopefully) the final approval of The Edge:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/ddrc11912.jpg

Where are the torches and pitchforks?

Also, for those that are interested, you can turn your cell phone into an internet tv station using UStream. It is free.

Steve Lackmeyer has been tweeting during the meeting ... from his comments i can not wait to read his review of this meeting

Approved.

Sweet! Thanks UP.


I know most the things the HH group were arguing against (density, traffic, etc.) are not within the purview of the DDRC. Those bridges were crossed long ago.

Approved.

good deal

if you have time would you care to give us a recap of the discussion??

Approved.

Cha ching - it's a Thunder money ball.

Can you imagine what these people are going to do when they realize the streetcar is going to go on 13th street? haha

Cha ching - it's a Thunder money ball.

this...

Sweet. Steve's tweets seem to indicate that any protests were very uninformed and basically laughed out of the room... Maybe I read his comments wrong though.

Any protesters at this point are uniformed by definition. Many said they didn't know about this until recently yet this has been the most public of projects and has been on-going for almost a decade. The time for real input was months/years ago and certainly not with the DDRC.

I'm sure this was a handful of people not at all indicative of the HH/MP homeowners who have done a great deal to improve their neighborhoods.

All that hand wringing and name calling for nothing. Sanity prevails.

...I'm sure this was a handful of people not at all indicative of the HH/MP homeowners who have done a great deal to improve their neighborhoods.
I totally agree. A commonly-held precept in Main Street was an 80/20 rule that said no matter what 1 in 5 of the property owners in a Main Street district would initially oppose the efforts of the program. If you had fewer than that you could count your blessings. I'm guessing that most people in HH/Mesta were either supportive of the project or indifferent. I also suspect most of those opposed were - as you say - ignorant to either the details of the project, the City process, or both.

Hopefully the project is successfully developed and years from now you will have a hard time finding anyone who'll admit to having been against it initially, much as you will now have a hard time locating "aginners" from the original MAPS vote.

Can you imagine what these people are going to do when they realize the streetcar is going to go on 13th street? haha

They will say "What streetcar? This is the first we are hearing of this."

They will say "What streetcar? This is the first we are hearing of this."

And will say it the day before the streetcar is due to first roll down the tracks.

Their defense of not knowing about it was that as a group they are slow with things. "We are the type of people who wait to the last day to file our taxes." They did not bring up a single point that was directly being considered by the board. All items that were out of their control. They wanted a 30 day continuance but were denied by the approval vote.

A thing to note, is the word brick was used repeatedly. I read it was going to be brick tile, I do not think that is correct. From my experience with these types of meeting, if it was brick tile, that would have been specified. He also said it was an expensive brick.

I guess "brick sheets" was used. Maybe that refers to a brick being assembled off site.

A thing to note, is the word brick was used repeatedly. I read it was going to be brick tile, I do not think that is correct. From my experience with these types of meeting, if it was brick tile, that would have been specified. He also said it was an expensive brick.

I guess "brick sheets" was used. Maybe that refers to a brick being assembled off site.

there was confusion over the term "brick veneer" ... some took it to mean faux brick panels ... when all it meant was brick finish over the concret/wood

there was confusion over the term "brick veneer" ... some to it to mean faux brick panels ... when all it meant was brick finish over the concret/wood
Exactly. When brick homes or offices are built today they most often are actually "brick veneer." There is nothing shoddy about brick veneer construction.

So we are not talking about a brick of 1" depth that would be similar to a tile? we are talking about a brick facade that has structural function? Regular 3" or so deep bricks?

good deal, if you have time would you care to give us a recap of the discussion??

I'm not even really sure where to start. lol Dick Tannenbaum walked in with me and lounged on the back row recusing himself from the vote.

Basically, the Chairwoman Betsy Brunstetter, would call one person opposing alternating to those who support. Heritage Hills seemed embarrassingly disorganized and divided. Some people were trying to tiptoe around the issue. The President got up there and explained how he thought he had adequately informed them. He even brought up the streetcar and how he though the two projects were tied together and a reason that the route is traversing that way.

Probably the funnier completely blatant NIMBY moment of exposure was when HH residents presented a list of the concerns which included their fear of a "sex store" potentially locating in the retail space since there are no obligating covenants outside of the developers control.

The Mesta Park president went out of her way to distance MP from the HH people. She acknowledged that some MP residents had some of the same concerns, but that they wanted to keep their issues completely separate from the HH list. She would not acknowledge what they were or elaborate. It was all quite humorous in a way.

I think one of the pro-posters on here was sitting by me, as he was young and would not make eye contact. lol

So we are not talking about a brick of 1" depth that would be similar to a tile? we are talking about a brick facade that has structural function? Regular 3" or so deep bricks?

the 3 inch brick on most building serves no/very limited structural function

So we are not talking about a brick of 1" depth that would be similar to a tile? we are talking about a brick facade that has structural function? Regular 3" or so deep bricks?
Most brick construction these days has very little structural function. For hundreds (actually thousands) of years, walls were built out of masonry (stone, brick, etc.) and what you see was what you got. In the 20th century that was largely replaced by stick-built construction; that is, framed with studs on-site. Then typically covered with sheathing of some sort, then covered with siding, stone, brick, whatever. Hence "veneer." When it is brick veneer, it is still laid in courses by a brick mason.

The brick veneer ads soundproofing, weatherproofing and such, but does not usually support the the overall structure. That is what you see in most homes (including the most expensive of them) and light commercial construction these days. It is still high-quality construction.

That should not be confused with "thin brick," which is essentially thin slices of real brick, applied to a structural wall or underlayment with an adhesive mastic or mud, much like tiling a wall. This is faux brick construction, designed to look like real brick.

Of course, some thin brick manufacturers have taken to referring to their product as "brick veneer," which is technically correct, but misleading, as proper brick masonry was referred to as "brick veneer" long before thin brick ever came into existence. That's not surprising though; as the whole point of thin brick is to mislead the viewer into thinking you paid for real brick.