I don't think Oklahoma is a poor state. There are a lot of states with more "stuff" and the illusion of having more programs that are drowning in debt and mismanagement. Okahoma is a lot like a your relative who saves his money, pays his bills, cuts back on vacations but has tons more money in the bank than his flashy cousin who is changing his telephone number to try to avoid the bill collectors.

Anyone know when the by-city breakdown of the census data comes out?

Anyone know when the by-city breakdown of the census data comes out?

See my post number 56.

Really? According to what projections? Please, cite a source.

Edmond had roughly 81k in 2009. It might be 85k in 2010, so if that's "close to 90,000," so be it.

Lighten up. I said "I bet"... meaning pure speculation. Sheesh. Just a guess.

I don't think Oklahoma is a poor state. There are a lot of states with more "stuff" and the illusion of having more programs that are drowning in debt and mismanagement. Okahoma is a lot like a your relative who saves his money, pays his bills, cuts back on vacations but has tons more money in the bank than his flashy cousin who is changing his telephone number to try to avoid the bill collectors.

Slow and steady wins the race. Good post PQ.

As I have brought up before some people, including you, need to better appreciate that Oklahoma has moved away in leaps and bounds from its gross backwardness since 1999,for some instances, lotteries, casinos, tattoos and liquor stores open on election days have all come about since then. ...

Seriously? That's the best you can offer as to how far OK has come since 1995 (I left in 1995, not 1999) - legal gambling, tattoos and buying liquor one or two extra days out of the year? Damn, I'm *so* glad I moved back!

:lol2: :Smiley181 :Smiley259 :dance:

What progress has been made about the antiquated liquor laws and an industry being held captive by ABLE and their cronies? What about more of the culture I left for (decent clubs/concerts like Park West, the Metro, the Showbox and the acts they attract; decent bookstores like Elliott Bay or Quimby's, great restaurants, decent grocery stores (yeah, Whole Paycheck is coming, I need to start saving now), great museums)? It would be nice to work someplace where a large amount of people *don't* have Christian stuff all over their desk and cubicle walls (I *never, ever* saw that until I moved back here). Ad nauseum.

Yeah, some progress has been made, there are things happening, those are good, but OK still has a long way to go before it's considered a "major-league" state (as some folks think the city actually is). And it might just never get there, due to a lot of factors, sadly...

So basically you left due to variables that are changing. OKC doesn't have world class museums, but our museum situation is much better than 20 years ago. A better history museum, art museum, science museum, musuem of natural history. The new American Indian museum will be a world class museum upon completion, and that day is drawing near.

We have better clubs, and our concert situation is ten time better than ten years ago. The days of warm liquor store beer are drawing short. The issue now shows up every year in the state legislature. Anytime that happens, the law eventually changes. It happened with the lottery, with tattooing and casino gambling. A change in alcoholic beverage laws is inevitable.

It really sounds to be like you simply wanted to be in a larger metro. Nothing wrong with that. But things in Oklahoma City are definitely changing. No one can argue that point, and that is part of the reason why population growth is picking up the pace. It has done so since 2006.

Damn, I didn't see this until I answered Bunty, should've done it all in one post, sorry.

Yep, that's pretty much it - OKC was way too small (culturally and mentally) for me. Sadly, still is, even with the purported advances you've mentioned. I still hold that it has a long way to go, though. Not sure about the better science museum - if that's the Omniplex, I hope they've upgraded it quite a bit since I left - it was nice for the 1980s and 1990s, but not now. OKCMOA is nice, but the exhibits it gets just aren't all that (the "Intersections" exhibit had 5 pieces of art, the "La Serenissima" was just smaller than expected), the "Another Hot OK Night" exhibit at the OHC was just sad - one little-bitty room and it only had one 3'x3' stand-up case devoted to the Lips, arguably the most famous OK band ever (Woody, Leon, and Charlie are huge and hugely influential, but the Lips should've had more space devoted to them). Concerts and club shows are seriously lacking - take who's playing in Chicago in any given month, divide that by 8 (since their population is about 8 times more than ours) and then compare it to who's coming to OKC in one month. Just no comparison.

I really hope the change in alcohol laws is inevitable, but I'll believe it when I can walk into a store and buy a cold microbrew (probably have to hobble in on my walker).

And it just gets old driving on crappy streets needing repair, and just seeing the generally run-down condition of so much commercial real estate, but I don't ever see OK having enough money to have things be in the condition they should be.

So yeah, I'm not arguing that OK has progressed in 15 years, but it's still got a ways to go, IMO. But sadly, I don't think the political, religious, and redneck (yeah, that's dangerous-talk, I know) mindset will ever change enough for me (and a lot of folks) to find it acceptable to live here. Yet I must, so I have to endure (and I don't believe I'm alone).

Yep - Oklahoma sucks but I just can't stay off their message board. You know where else sucks - Elkhart, Indiana. I am on their site all the time telling them how much it sucks.

Well, Travellers, for a great Oklahoma museum that has sprung up since 1999, go to Norman on the OU campus to the Fred Jones museum of art. It's a fascinating place. Some of the art there may be worth million$. Hopefully, admission is still FREE on Tuesday. You can see a small scale model of world famous architect Bruce Goff's Bavenger House and later for $10see and tour inside the actual home in the countryside just outside Norman.

Numerous other changes for the better have happened in Oklahoma since 1999. The increase in population will encourage more change for the better. But if you're impatient for change in Oklahoma, you might try bringing about more change yourself, not necessarily in your attitudes, but changing your surroundings more compatible to your attitudes, like a change in job to where displays of religious devotion aren't open.

Speaking of religious displays, I wonder how much it hurts OKC to have huge crosses lit up on a couple or so of it's downtown skyscrapers? Do other downtowns do this? I hope the new Devon Tower doesn't do it, if it doesn't reflect all that well on OKC. If not even Tulsa does it, why should OKC?

Oklahoma became a state just over a hundred years ago. It is a young state compared to those back east and many to the west. It is even younger than the states along the Great Lakes. To expect a landlocked state like Oklahoma that has no "great" Rivers running through it to jump start its development the way so many states have is unrealistic.

The internet, easy travel and television all go a long way to change/mold people's interests and aspirations but it still takes time. That Oklahoma has made such progress in the past 10 - 15 years is stupendous. I see more pride in Oklahoma, these days, than I ever did even ten years ago. Hell, ten years ago, people from OKC were feeling intimidated by TULSA. These days, there is much talk of comparing itself to places like mid sizied cities in the Midwest with an eye to learning from their example. It is a quantum leap for Oklahomans to even be thinking like that and if you are too young to have seen the difference, that might not be obvious.

Change/evolution won't happen by people overly embarassed or angry at their state for not being a grownup when it is still in its early teens. Anyone that shortsighted is not going to see the long view. It will happen because people are excited about the progress being made who aren't discouraged that it wasn't handed to them as a birthright. The happy news is that people in Oklahoma can be part of its urban culture development. Personally, I think that is exciting.

What about more of the culture I left for (decent clubs/concerts like Park West, the Metro, the Showbox and the acts they attract; decent bookstores like Elliott Bay or Quimby's, great restaurants, decent grocery stores (yeah, Whole Paycheck is coming, I need to start saving now), great museums)? It would be nice to work someplace where a large amount of people *don't* have Christian stuff all over their desk and cubicle walls (I *never, ever* saw that until I moved back here). Ad nauseum.



WOW...you are a miserable person. If this is the stuff that bothers you, I feel sorry for you. Get over yourself.

Simple reason nine states with the highest growth rates are states with NO State Tax.

WOW...you are a miserable person. If this is the stuff that bothers you, I feel sorry for you. Get over yourself.

I agree. I'm an athiest and it doesn't bother me one bit that I live in OKC. I have many Christian friends and many athiest friends. We all get along great and we respect eachother's religions. It's just not a big deal and that's how it should be. There's always people like TheTravellers that are extremists and like to finely criticize OKC of every single one of it's faults. He does not represent the average viewpoint of what OKC is and portrays.

The redneck and religion comment got me. I feel like we're talking about two different OKC's the way you make it seem here Travellers.

It sounds like Travellers is talking about OKC maybe 20-25 years ago.

WOW...you are a miserable person. If this is the stuff that bothers you, I feel sorry for you. Get over yourself.
I'd like to add to that, go back where you came from. I don't think you'll be missed here.

Damn, I didn't see this until I answered Bunty, should've done it all in one post, sorry.

Yep, that's pretty much it - OKC was way too small (culturally and mentally) for me. Sadly, still is, even with the purported advances you've mentioned. I still hold that it has a long way to go, though. Not sure about the better science museum - if that's the Omniplex, I hope they've upgraded it quite a bit since I left - it was nice for the 1980s and 1990s, but not now. OKCMOA is nice, but the exhibits it gets just aren't all that (the "Intersections" exhibit had 5 pieces of art, the "La Serenissima" was just smaller than expected), the "Another Hot OK Night" exhibit at the OHC was just sad - one little-bitty room and it only had one 3'x3' stand-up case devoted to the Lips, arguably the most famous OK band ever (Woody, Leon, and Charlie are huge and hugely influential, but the Lips should've had more space devoted to them). Concerts and club shows are seriously lacking - take who's playing in Chicago in any given month, divide that by 8 (since their population is about 8 times more than ours) and then compare it to who's coming to OKC in one month. Just no comparison.

I really hope the change in alcohol laws is inevitable, but I'll believe it when I can walk into a store and buy a cold microbrew (probably have to hobble in on my walker).

And it just gets old driving on crappy streets needing repair, and just seeing the generally run-down condition of so much commercial real estate, but I don't ever see OK having enough money to have things be in the condition they should be.

So yeah, I'm not arguing that OK has progressed in 15 years, but it's still got a ways to go, IMO. But sadly, I don't think the political, religious, and redneck (yeah, that's dangerous-talk, I know) mindset will ever change enough for me (and a lot of folks) to find it acceptable to live here. Yet I must, so I have to endure (and I don't believe I'm alone).

When was the last time you were here? A lot of street repair and widening projects are happening right now in OKC, especially in northwest OKC and downtown. Omniplex isn't called that anymore. It is now Science Museum Oklahoma. A lot of expansion and improvements were made at the Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum (though I was never into cowboy culture, I do like western art). The exhibits at SMO are better, and they have added an IWERKS theater, though that was 11 years ago.

I love Oklahoma for Oklahoma, not because of everyone else's personal views or habits. I don't let other people dictate me. I have many friends and family in Oklahoma that are both conservative and liberal, but it doesn't matter. What matters is that I enjoy spending time with them.

Oklahoma can't and won't please everyone. There are things about the state I don't like, but I don't let it sway me in the things I want to do for Oklahoma City. Maybe I am stubborn and hard-headed... but I believe in Oklahoma City's potential and its future, regardless of what T-Shirt of the week is on the sale rack.

...
I don't know who you run with that has that take on it but my crowd was primarily attorneys and federal workers/contractors in the Mid Atlantic area. It is amazing that educated people were that ignorant but fact is, they didn't care enough to educate themselves because this wasn't something they even thought of. I am just as ignorant of, say, Wisconsin politics as they are of what goes on in Oklahoma.


IT professionals was who I ran with. And I have no idea if they were liberals, dems, repubs, conservatives, whatever, but they were all pretty educated and since they knew I was from OK, they'd see one of many news articles about some stupid thing OK did and we'd converse about it.

Well, Travellers, for a great Oklahoma museum that has sprung up since 1999, go to Norman on the OU campus to the Fred Jones museum of art. It's a fascinating place. Some of the art there may be worth million$. Hopefully, admission is still FREE on Tuesday. You can see a small scale model of world famous architect Bruce Goff's Bavenger House and later for $10see and tour inside the actual home in the countryside just outside Norman.

Numerous other changes for the better have happened in Oklahoma since 1999. The increase in population will encourage more change for the better. But if you're impatient for change in Oklahoma, you might try bringing about more change yourself, not necessarily in your attitudes, but changing your surroundings more compatible to your attitudes, like a change in job to where displays of religious devotion aren't open.

Speaking of religious displays, I wonder how much it hurts OKC to have huge crosses lit up on a couple or so of it's downtown skyscrapers? Do other downtowns do this? I hope the new Devon Tower doesn't do it, if it doesn't reflect all that well on OKC. If not even Tulsa does it, why should OKC?

I do need to go the Fred Jones museum, thanks for reminding me of it, it hasn't made it to my list of must-sees yet.

Sadly, I can't change jobs, there aren't very many positions open (if any) for what I do.

And this is how I feel about all the religious displays at workplaces and the big crosses on the downtown towers: Religion is like a big *****. It's fine to have one and it's fine to be proud of it, but please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around... and PLEASE don't try to shove it down my throat.

Not sure how much those big crosses hurt OKC (if at all), but I don't believe I saw many of them on the skyscrapers in Chicago or Seattle when I lived there, would be interesting to know if any other large metros had them...

When was the last time you were here? A lot of street repair and widening projects are happening right now in OKC, especially in northwest OKC and downtown. Omniplex isn't called that anymore. It is now Science Museum Oklahoma. A lot of expansion and improvements were made at the Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum (though I was never into cowboy culture, I do like western art). The exhibits at SMO are better, and they have added an IWERKS theater, though that was 11 years ago.

I love Oklahoma for Oklahoma, not because of everyone else's personal views or habits. I don't let other people dictate me. I have many friends and family in Oklahoma that are both conservative and liberal, but it doesn't matter. What matters is that I enjoy spending time with them.

Oklahoma can't and won't please everyone. There are things about the state I don't like, but I don't let it sway me in the things I want to do for Oklahoma City. Maybe I am stubborn and hard-headed... but I believe in Oklahoma City's potential and its future, regardless of what T-Shirt of the week is on the sale rack.

Um, I have lived in OKC since April 2009. Yes, I've seen much street-widening, and some repair (but not enough of the latter), but some of it's strangely prioritized, from what I've seen (horrible, horrible streets are getting no attention, yet others that don't really need repair are getting it, and no, I don't have a nice enumerated list of examples handy, sorry). Haven't been to the Science Museum since we've been back, but have been back to the Cowboy/Western museum. It is nicer than it was, so I'll agree with you there. Might have to see how much the Science Museum has changed, too.

You say this: "I love Oklahoma for Oklahoma, not because of everyone else's personal views or habits.", but aren't everyone else's personal views and habits part of what makes up Oklahoma? Please explain what comprises the second Oklahoma in this statement "I love Oklahoma for Oklahoma"? Since a state is comprised of natural things, buildings and structures, and people (and their habits and personal views), etc., I believe that the population's general views and habits *do* give non-residents an insight as to how a state works, what the population believes, how welcomed a person will feel if they agree or disagree with what the general beliefs of a state are, etc.

I agree. I'm an athiest and it doesn't bother me one bit that I live in OKC. I have many Christian friends and many athiest friends. We all get along great and we respect eachother's religions. It's just not a big deal and that's how it should be. There's always people like TheTravellers that are extremists and like to finely criticize OKC of every single one of it's faults. He does not represent the average viewpoint of what OKC is and portrays.

The redneck and religion comment got me. I feel like we're talking about two different OKC's the way you make it seem here Travellers.


100% spot on.

Speaking of religious displays, I wonder how much it hurts OKC to have huge crosses lit up on a couple or so of it's downtown skyscrapers? Do other downtowns do this? I hope the new Devon Tower doesn't do it, if it doesn't reflect all that well on OKC. If not even Tulsa does it, why should OKC?

Tulsa does not, just your typical red/green lights. I'm sure there are other cities that have buildings with crosses during December but I've never personally seen them.

OKC and Oklahoma aren't for everyone. Just like NYC and Chicago aren't for everyone either. Building a place that has elements of both is the ultimate goal for OKC, and to be on the same level nationally as other larger mid-sized cities like Austin, Nashville, Charlotte, Indianapolis, Tampa, Salt Lake City, Sacramento, Kansas City, etc.

So yeah, I'm not arguing that OK has progressed in 15 years, but it's still got a ways to go, IMO. But sadly, I don't think the political, religious, and redneck (yeah, that's dangerous-talk, I know) mindset will ever change enough for me (and a lot of folks) to find it acceptable to live here. Yet I must, so I have to endure (and I don't believe I'm alone).

I can sympathize with your viewpoint.

I have yet to see a "big" city where religion is as visible as it is in OKC. No, not even Tulsa or Salt Lake City. As I've said before--it's the little things that add up: the prayer on the front page of the Daily Oklahoman, the crosses on downtown buildings, the giant cross in Edmond, the prayer before tipoff at a Thunder game, etc., etc.

Since I was born and raised in OKC I have developed a tolerance for these sorts of public displays. No question that it comes as a (unwelcome) surprise to many others.

guys guys, this topic has shifted way away from the Census. But I do think the organic discussions has merit.

Travelers, you bring up some very valid points but some of them are dated. OKC has made significant progress - even if (like Penny articulated) you consider the pride and image that OKC residents have for their city and the fact that people WANT to improve, WANT to join the major league ranks, and ARE DOING something about it.

I too have had the pleasure of living in America's (and some of the world's) best cities and consider Chicago to be the #1 city in America. But I also rank OKC in the top 20 and it is because of what it has to offer and how well it does it - not a comparison to other cities necessarily. OKC brings small town feel to the big city, definitely has attractions and things to do (especially since the last 15 years) but does it politely and somewhat warmly compared to other big metros. This is why I rank the city in the top 20.

I think you'll be surprised, if you consider objectively what OKC has to offer - like you obviously did with Chicago and Seattle. In fact, I am a Seattle resident (since 1991, moved here for undergrad and not really left due to employment/advanced education) yet I consider MOST of what Seattle has in terms of infrastructure as FORCED and not really organic. Seattle's culture is organic, sure - but to get it we ram everything in and it isn't done quite well in my opinion. Yet I still chose to live here and also am impressed with my hometown - which in my eyes is a lot closer to Seattle's rating than many people will give it. There really isn't much difference at once you get past the surface, between the two cities. Obviously, Seattle-Tacoma is 2.8 times bigger than OKC, but that only shows how much Seattle lacks in my mind when OKC boasts just as many touring concerts and considering the obvious wealth classes of the two.

I do agree, OKC has a long way to go before it is solidly in the league of progressive big cities, but I also think OKC IS already a member (a junior one at that) and with time the city will continue to get better. It is somewhat difficult to expect an 1.35 million metro to match the world class offerings of America's #2 city in Chicago. So I think that is quite unfair, since MOST cities couldn't do it.

I think there are two choices 1) you can complain about what OKC doesn't have, doesn't do, and should have would have could have OR 2) you can bring up thoughts constructively and work to improve OKC the way YOU want it to be. There are plenty of people who stand up for OKC and are making the city better, in their eyes - and there are urbanists and suburbanites who are making the city progressive; even just by their participating and asking for things to be transparent and/or speaking out when the good ole boys try to slip things under the radar.

On a side note - I agree about the crosses on the two skyscrapers downtown, but maybe that is the 'storybook' that OKC is trying to portray as a homely town big city? I think it could be executed better, with say one tower with crosses and the other with a christmas tree or some other holiday cymbol. And I did what I could to voice this constructive criticism - I suggest you do the same! OKC will improve with your help.

Devon will have rather extensive led lighting potential. Perhaps it can dedicate one or more sections to rotate through various patterns, Cross, Star of David, etc. (and in different colors to boot. there's ya some diversity.



yeah, I keeed from time to time. hope nobody spilled their drink

Makes you wonder why someone like The Travellers actually comes to this board, or has anything to do with OKC. Obviously he hates it and is above it. However, I would point out that many of the advancements of the more enlightened cities has come at an extreme cost. Many, many cities have hugely overspent and are now paying the price. Nothing comes free.

I think it is good to have a difference in opinion. He obviously has specific aspirations and there are some things that OKC could note from his observations. However, I agree that having a continuously condescending tone is not the best way to convince people that OKC has a problem. ....

I hope travelers (and others) can be part of the solution, particularly if you are 'forced' to live in the city. I think OKC is looking to get better and with a proactive/positive voice, you can help make it the city you want to be proud of.

Makes you wonder why someone like The Travellers actually comes to this board, or has anything to do with OKC. Obviously he hates it and is above it. However, I would point out that many of the advancements of the more enlightened cities has come at an extreme cost. Many, many cities have hugely overspent and are now paying the price. Nothing comes free.

I LIVE HERE!!!!!!!!!!!! HAVE SINCE APRIL 2009!!!!!!!!!!!!! Posted this multiple times in multiple forums!!!!!!!!!!!! :doh: :doh: I had to move back here after leaving 15 years ago, and did *not* want to come back, but it was the only job available in the 6-7 metro areas I was looking in. I'll address some of HOT ROD's points later, when I get unbusy, but yes, if I have to live here, I want to see OKC get better (subjective definition that not everybody will agree with, so I'm leaving it undefined for now) - it's probably going to take longer than the rest of my life, though, and may not happen even by then.

I LIVE HERE!!!!!!!!!!!! HAVE SINCE APRIL 2009!!!!!!!!!!!!! Posted this multiple times in multiple forums!!!!!!!!!!!! :doh: :doh: I had to move back here after leaving 15 years ago, and did *not* want to come back, but it was the only job available in the 6-7 metro areas I was looking in. I'll address some of HOT ROD's points later, when I get unbusy, but yes, if I have to live here, I want to see OKC get better (subjective definition that not everybody will agree with, so I'm leaving it undefined for now) - it's probably going to take longer than the rest of my life, though, and may not happen even by then.

Where in that post did Rover say you didn't live here? Kinda went overboard didn't you?

I LIVE HERE!!!!!!!!!!!! HAVE SINCE APRIL 2009!!!!!!!!!!!!! Posted this multiple times in multiple forums!!!!!!!!!!!! :doh: :doh: I had to move back here after leaving 15 years ago, and did *not* want to come back, but it was the only job available in the 6-7 metro areas I was looking in. I'll address some of HOT ROD's points later, when I get unbusy, but yes, if I have to live here, I want to see OKC get better (subjective definition that not everybody will agree with, so I'm leaving it undefined for now) - it's probably going to take longer than the rest of my life, though, and may not happen even by then.

So, you can't even see OKC getting subjectively "better" before you die? Drama queen.

Where in that post did Rover say you didn't live here? Kinda went overboard didn't you?

"Makes you wonder why someone like The Travellers actually comes to this board, or has anything to do with OKC." Not explicit, but I think it's pretty clear that Rover thinks I don't live here. Rover, want to verify? :-)

So, you can't even see OKC getting subjectively "better" before you die? Drama queen.

Ha, that's why I left "better" undefined. As someone said in another thread, we need a generational shift (about liquor laws, I think). Lots of hugely entrenched things that won't change until the next (or maybe the next after that) generation gets in power. Not sure if that will happen in my lifetime. And there are some things that won't ever change for the "better" and probably just can't be changed (median income, education level, etc.)

Might I suggest a career change..Wouldn't want to live somewhere I disliked just for a job

IT professionals was who I ran with. And I have no idea if they were liberals, dems, repubs, conservatives, whatever, but they were all pretty educated and since they knew I was from OK, they'd see one of many news articles about some stupid thing OK did and we'd converse about it.

By the time I got done with them, back east, most people I talked to about Oklahoma were interested in coming to see it for themselves. I suspect my love for the state had a lot to do with the way I presented it and how it was received. Who would want to go someplace where its own natives are embarassed about it or think poorly of it?

Ha, that's why I left "better" undefined. As someone said in another thread, we need a generational shift (about liquor laws, I think). Lots of hugely entrenched things that won't change until the next (or maybe the next after that) generation gets in power. Not sure if that will happen in my lifetime. And there are some things that won't ever change for the "better" and probably just can't be changed (median income, education level, etc.)

Hmm. I vividly remember liquor by the drink. My father-in-law laughs about going to the parking lot out at Czech Hall and all the car trunks would pop up with bars inside. I predict we'll have wine in the grocery stores within six years. The clock starts now...

Um, I have lived in OKC since April 2009. Yes, I've seen much street-widening, and some repair (but not enough of the latter), but some of it's strangely prioritized, from what I've seen (horrible, horrible streets are getting no attention, yet others that don't really need repair are getting it, and no, I don't have a nice enumerated list of examples handy, sorry). Haven't been to the Science Museum since we've been back, but have been back to the Cowboy/Western museum. It is nicer than it was, so I'll agree with you there. Might have to see how much the Science Museum has changed, too.

You say this: "I love Oklahoma for Oklahoma, not because of everyone else's personal views or habits.", but aren't everyone else's personal views and habits part of what makes up Oklahoma? Please explain what comprises the second Oklahoma in this statement "I love Oklahoma for Oklahoma"? Since a state is comprised of natural things, buildings and structures, and people (and their habits and personal views), etc., I believe that the population's general views and habits *do* give non-residents an insight as to how a state works, what the population believes, how welcomed a person will feel if they agree or disagree with what the general beliefs of a state are, etc.

What meant was people are going to embarrass Oklahoma, and there are people there whose staunch views I disagree with, but that won't stop me from wanting to move back or take pride in my home city.

There are some streets in OKC that are in bad need of repair, but when I saw the same problem in Houston throughout the Galleria and near Jersey Village, I got the lasting impression OKC was not alone in it's problems. Dallas city streets... I won't even get started. But OKC can certainly step up and be a better example for Oklahoma.

I LIVE HERE!!!!!!!!!!!! HAVE SINCE APRIL 2009!!!!!!!!!!!!! Posted this multiple times in multiple forums!!!!!!!!!!!! :doh: :doh: I had to move back here after leaving 15 years ago, and did *not* want to come back, but it was the only job available in the 6-7 metro areas I was looking in. I'll address some of HOT ROD's points later, when I get unbusy, but yes, if I have to live here, I want to see OKC get better (subjective definition that not everybody will agree with, so I'm leaving it undefined for now) - it's probably going to take longer than the rest of my life, though, and may not happen even by then.

Sorry, no. You do NOT HAVE to live here. You have made a choice to do so.

"Makes you wonder why someone like The Travellers actually comes to this board, or has anything to do with OKC." Not explicit, but I think it's pretty clear that Rover thinks I don't live here. Rover, want to verify? :-)

Have to go with Architect on this one, didn't read Rover's post as thinking you didn't live here (just that you don't like it here).

guys guys, this topic has shifted way away from the Census. But I do think the organic discussions has merit.

Travelers, you bring up some very valid points but some of them are dated. OKC has made significant progress - even if (like Penny articulated) you consider the pride and image that OKC residents have for their city and the fact that people WANT to improve, WANT to join the major league ranks, and ARE DOING something about it.

OK, maybe some of my views are dated, but I still see massive evidence of redneck behavior (in this sense (which I copied from wikipedia since it was quick and handy and pretty close to what I mean when I say redneck) - "In recent decades the term expanded its meaning to mean bigoted, loutish, and opposed to modern ways, ...") and religious behavior that can stifle growth here in OKC and the state. I speak to people all the time that are still racist and bigoted, and also "religious" people that aren't really Christian in their beliefs. I could define ABLE as redneck - opposed to modern ways fits them pretty well. :-) These people exist all over the state and vote for things that are opposed to modern ways, or bigoted; our state legislators can be the same way, and our national congresspeople can also be the same way. So it still exists, but maybe in smaller doses now. And that's some of why people leave the state and why other people don't want to move here (to tie this back into the census results).


I too have had the pleasure of living in America's (and some of the world's) best cities and consider Chicago to be the #1 city in America. But I also rank OKC in the top 20 and it is because of what it has to offer and how well it does it - not a comparison to other cities necessarily. OKC brings small town feel to the big city, definitely has attractions and things to do (especially since the last 15 years) but does it politely and somewhat warmly compared to other big metros. This is why I rank the city in the top 20.

I think you'll be surprised, if you consider objectively what OKC has to offer - like you obviously did with Chicago and Seattle. In fact, I am a Seattle resident (since 1991, moved here for undergrad and not really left due to employment/advanced education) yet I consider MOST of what Seattle has in terms of infrastructure as FORCED and not really organic. Seattle's culture is organic, sure - but to get it we ram everything in and it isn't done quite well in my opinion. Yet I still chose to live here and also am impressed with my hometown - which in my eyes is a lot closer to Seattle's rating than many people will give it. There really isn't much difference at once you get past the surface, between the two cities. Obviously, Seattle-Tacoma is 2.8 times bigger than OKC, but that only shows how much Seattle lacks in my mind when OKC boasts just as many touring concerts and considering the obvious wealth classes of the two.

Hmmm, I don't think OKC has nearly the amount of touring acts and shows and exhibits at museums as Seattle does (or even in proportion to their sizes, I don't think it's equivalent), but I haven't verified this, though. I need to, one of these days, just to see if I'm right or not.


I do agree, OKC has a long way to go before it is solidly in the league of progressive big cities, but I also think OKC IS already a member (a junior one at that) and with time the city will continue to get better. It is somewhat difficult to expect an 1.35 million metro to match the world class offerings of America's #2 city in Chicago. So I think that is quite unfair, since MOST cities couldn't do it.

Very true, I wasn't comparing OKC to Chicago, just proportionally according to their populations, but even that won't really work. It was just a quick semi-lazy way to try to compare them. :Smiley259


I think there are two choices 1) you can complain about what OKC doesn't have, doesn't do, and should have would have could have OR 2) you can bring up thoughts constructively and work to improve OKC the way YOU want it to be. There are plenty of people who stand up for OKC and are making the city better, in their eyes - and there are urbanists and suburbanites who are making the city progressive; even just by their participating and asking for things to be transparent and/or speaking out when the good ole boys try to slip things under the radar.

And that's part of what frustrates me - I do things like calling city council members, OKC construction project managers, mention typos to establishments, call people and companies out when they do things wrong, etc., but that's not doing any good, it's just pi**ing on a forest fire. So what are the ways to get things done constructively around here? Which committees to join, council meetings to go to, etc.? It's worth trying, I suppose, but I've done similar things in the past and when all you get by beating your head against a brick wall a thousand times is your brains on the wall, it gets old and you just give up. Throw me a bone here, please, and give me some starting points and I'll investigate.


On a side note - I agree about the crosses on the two skyscrapers downtown, but maybe that is the 'storybook' that OKC is trying to portray as a homely town big city? I think it could be executed better, with say one tower with crosses and the other with a christmas tree or some other holiday cymbol. And I did what I could to voice this constructive criticism - I suggest you do the same! OKC will improve with your help.

Yep, thanks, and I do appreciate it. Sometimes I just get so tired of things that it just explodes - how many times do people have to be told to turn off their phones or to not text in movies and they still do? After the theatre asks them to not do it multiple times before the movie starts, and they've been to lots of movies, they should know better, so I just tell them to quit and I'm usually semi-rude about it because they're being even more rude by disturbing everyone with their little flashlight smartphone. So it just hits that breaking point of "You've been told 18 times not to do this, so don't do it anymore, you $#%#%*$$@#&%" :dizzy:

OK, maybe some of my views are dated, but I still see massive evidence of redneck behavior (in this sense (which I copied from wikipedia since it was quick and handy and pretty close to what I mean when I say redneck) - "In recent decades the term expanded its meaning to mean bigoted, loutish, and opposed to modern ways, ...") and religious behavior that can stifle growth here in OKC and the state. I speak to people all the time that are still racist and bigoted, and also "religious" people that aren't really Christian in their beliefs. I could define ABLE as redneck - opposed to modern ways fits them pretty well. :-) These people exist all over the state and vote for things that are opposed to modern ways, or bigoted; our state legislators can be the same way, and our national congresspeople can also be the same way. So it still exists, but maybe in smaller doses now. And that's some of why people leave the state and why other people don't want to move here (to tie this back into the census results).

How do you change this? You increase the proportion of people living in the state who are not racist and bigoted. That happens with education and urbanization. But, having been to Washington (and virtually every other state in the union) I guarantee you there are rednecks, racists and bigots in every state. Because you expect to find them here and you're not happy about being here, they bother you more than they did in Seattle. They're undoubtedly a higher proportion of the population, but you can do as many of the rest of us have and seek out friends who are not racist and bigoted. Campaign for people who support positions you do (although I must admit, Barack Obama, Andrew Rice and Mick Cornett are probably the only people I've voted for who actually won). Be positive and work for change rather than spending energy being unhappy with the status quo. I lived in Chicago and Denver before I moved here, and obviously we are not the same caliber of city, but there's satisfaction in working towards the goal of becoming a Seattle, Denver or Chicago.


And that's part of what frustrates me - I do things like calling city council members, OKC construction project managers, mention typos to establishments, call people and companies out when they do things wrong, etc., but that's not doing any good, it's just pi**ing on a forest fire. So what are the ways to get things done constructively around here? Which committees to join, council meetings to go to, etc.? It's worth trying, I suppose, but I've done similar things in the past and when all you get by beating your head against a brick wall a thousand times is your brains on the wall, it gets old and you just give up. Throw me a bone here, please, and give me some starting points and I'll investigate.

Calling people out rarely helps. The old saw of catching more flies with honey than vinegar holds true. I campaigned vigorously for the MAPS arena project (sorry about that, since you're from Seattle), as well as MAPS3. As a result of that, I'm on a subcommittee and maybe I can make a difference. I've never hesitated to write the mayor or my city councilman, but I try to always do so with suggestions for improvement, not criticism.

Jeff Bezdek and MTP (a good group to join, by the way) almost singlehandedly convinced the mayor to include the streetcar among the current MAPS projects, demonstrating that you can achieve real change outside the existing political system. There's Urban Neighbors, a way to meet people who either live downtown or are interested in promoting downtown and probably a host of others people will suggest.

I didn't want to move here either and for several years I fought considering this home, constantly thinking about how I could leave. Now, I have great friends, I love my job and I am truly home here. Perhaps in contrast to other cities, this is a place where you can meet the local movers and shakers and get involved much more quickly. It's a place you can see and appreciate change and feel like you had some small part in the process. That can be very satisfying if you take the right attitude. If you're stuck here, you might as well figure out a way to enjoy it!

Bigot definition:
intolerant person: somebody with strong opinions, especially on politics, religion, or ethnicity, who refuses to accept different views.


Seems to me that there are people in this thread playing the bigot card, when in doing so it makes themselves bigots in their own right. Such is life.

How do you change this? You increase the proportion of people living in the state who are not racist and bigoted. That happens with education and urbanization. But, having been to Washington (and virtually every other state in the union) I guarantee you there are rednecks, racists and bigots in every state. Because you expect to find them here and you're not happy about being here, they bother you more than they did in Seattle. They're undoubtedly a higher proportion of the population, but you can do as many of the rest of us have and seek out friends who are not racist and bigoted. Campaign for people who support positions you do (although I must admit, Barack Obama, Andrew Rice and Mick Cornett are probably the only people I've voted for who actually won). Be positive and work for change rather than spending energy being unhappy with the status quo. I lived in Chicago and Denver before I moved here, and obviously we are not the same caliber of city, but there's satisfaction in working towards the goal of becoming a Seattle, Denver or Chicago.

Trust me, I know there are RRB (rednecks, racists, bigots) in WA - we lived in the South Sound, which is just full of them. Seattle proper, not as many... I do vote in every election I can in order to change things, but very, very rarely do my candidates or positions win. But that's the way voting works - majority rules (in most cases).


Calling people out rarely helps. The old saw of catching more flies with honey than vinegar holds true. I campaigned vigorously for the MAPS arena project (sorry about that, since you're from Seattle), as well as MAPS3. As a result of that, I'm on a subcommittee and maybe I can make a difference. I've never hesitated to write the mayor or my city councilman, but I try to always do so with suggestions for improvement, not criticism.

Argh... Not from Seattle, never was, never will be. Not from Chicago, never was, never will be. Born in OKC 45 years ago, left 15 years ago for a "better" place, which happened to be Chicago (by way of Milwaukee for 6 bad months) for about 12 years, then Seattle for about 18 months, then was laid off in 12/08 and could only get a job in OKC (out of the several metro areas I was searching in). And often, my missives (phone calls, letters, whatever) do include constructive solutions/improvements/criticism, not just flaming "YOU SUCK" messages. They just fall on deaf ears, I guess, but I was able to make OKC make their sh***y contractor fix their dangerous construction zone at NW 164th/May, but I got tired of calling them after the things they fixed got un-fixed and they wouldn't fix them again (reflective stripes, bad barrier placement, etc.).


Jeff Bezdek and MTP (a good group to join, by the way) almost singlehandedly convinced the mayor to include the streetcar among the current MAPS projects, demonstrating that you can achieve real change outside the existing political system. There's Urban Neighbors, a way to meet people who either live downtown or are interested in promoting downtown and probably a host of others people will suggest.

I didn't want to move here either and for several years I fought considering this home, constantly thinking about how I could leave. Now, I have great friends, I love my job and I am truly home here. Perhaps in contrast to other cities, this is a place where you can meet the local movers and shakers and get involved much more quickly. It's a place you can see and appreciate change and feel like you had some small part in the process. That can be very satisfying if you take the right attitude. If you're stuck here, you might as well figure out a way to enjoy it!

Good points, hope I can get there, thanks...

Might I suggest a career change..Wouldn't want to live somewhere I disliked just for a job

Easy to say, but it takes lots of money and lots of time for a career change. The current economic climate also makes it very hard. Especially when you're in debt from moving across country. Yeah, I made my bed and I have to lie in it. Was completely debt-free, then decided to move across the country, then things went bad, so moved again.

And to Oil Capital - what do you do if nobody in your family (only 2 of us) can find a job where you're living, one's not eligible for unemployment, the other one's unemployment is running out, and a job is finally offered in your field, but it's in a place you left and didn't like, but have roots and family there? No, I didn't have to move, but if I didn't, I'd become homeless, bankrupt, and go without food, and drag my wife and 2 cats down with me. So what would your choice be - move back to someplace you didn't like, but could make money there *or* get kicked out of your house, go on food stamps, not eat, etc.? Not much of a choice for me, I like shelter and food and so do the beings that depend on me for the same.

Have to go with Architect on this one, didn't read Rover's post as thinking you didn't live here (just that you don't like it here).

I'm confused - how can I have nothing to do with OKC if I live here? If I live here, I *have* to have something to do with OKC since I am *in* OKC 24x7 (pretty much). Only Rover can clear this up, if it's worth clearing up.

What meant was people are going to embarrass Oklahoma, and there are people there whose staunch views I disagree with, but that won't stop me from wanting to move back or take pride in my home city.

I didn't *want* to move back, it was the least worst choice in my life at that time. And not sure if taking pride is correct, but yes, I do want to make it better. This is still where I was born, I have family here, there are decent people and things here, and I want to see OK start climbing up the ladder to rise above what it currently is. Yeah, some of it's selfish - I don't want to be identified with a state that has done some stupid things. I did the same thing in other places I've lived, too - I just want to see where I live not be stupid.


... But OKC can certainly step up and be a better example for Oklahoma.

Thank you for that comment, that's what I'm aiming for. Maybe not in the most appropriate way, but that's the sentiment.

I don't want to be identified with a state that has done some stupid things.

Just remember Oklahoma is not alone. Probably not the best example, but I've seen Texas pull some real whoppers.

It always seems to be the self-described progressives who show themselves to be close-minded, intolerant, and generally miserable. Curious phenomena.

Travelers, I appreciate the feedback to my points. I agree that oftentimes things seem rather large and helpless - but hang in there. OKC has improved and it is because people stood up and changed it. It didn't happen overnight and certainly there's more work to be done. But dare I say the OKC of the old has hopefully forever blown away and the new OKC is here to stay. Look at the levels of diversity in the city - maybe not as visible as Seattle but really OKC has everything that Seattle does, including a thriving Gay district and an "International" Chinatown area (I.D. vs Asian District); as well as a few things Seattle does not, such as a Hispanic downtown in Capital Hill (although South Park does come somewhat close) ...

It's just OKC isn't as out in your face or flashy on the cosmopolitan aspects (for better or worse). I think there is a vocal minority in the city, but most people don't really argue against - they just don't speak as loud or often. (as an aside) I do wish OKC had a Fremont area, but I suspect Plaza District will be come OKC's self proclaimed Centre of the Universe soon. It also would be nice if a true University District could develop around OCU, that doesn't interfere with Asia District.

I suggest, grow a little tough skin and decide where you want to contribute to OKC's forward momentum. It is there, believe me and people have more of a say than ever before. Which committees interest you? and once you find them, think positively and constructively when stating obvious criticisms. That is often the best way to mitigate circumstances and win people over to your view (negotiation 101 - haha).

One more suggestion, I hope you live or can find a place in the inner city - because 'we' need people like you who have ideas tried and true from other cities, on how best to develop inner OKC. I live in Seattle, so most of my contribution is online and through examples of my world travels - but since you live in the city and seem to be bursting with ideas on urban/social society, you might feel much better in the inner city close to other like minded (but probably not as vocal) residents instead of those you mention who I guess predominate the rural and some suburbs of OKC (and most cities, in fact).

Just look at this forum, a good balance of people who contribute to the development of OKC - leaders do listen because we are a 'captive' audience eager to share ideas. Welcome to the forum, if you haven't already been - and take some time to see the real OKC (you might have to spend some time searching as it's not always out in your face or even media publicized like other cities), THEN come back with those constructive ideas on how to make the city better. Dont give up on us.

Just remember Oklahoma is not alone. Probably not the best example, but I've seen Texas pull some real whoppers.

Oh yeah, absolutely true, their schoolbook board is just un-freaking-believable, just as one example...

...
It's just OKC isn't as out in your face or flashy on the cosmopolitan aspects (for better or worse). I think there is a vocal minority in the city, but most people don't really argue against - they just don't speak as loud or often. ...

Yeah, and that's part of the problem - lots of folks just aren't engaged at the level they should be (my parents are a great example - they just don't really care much about what goes on everywhere in the city/state/nation/world unless it *directly* affects them and their wallet, which is really sad) and they're getting screwed by the politicians and those in power who do not have the best interests of their constituents at heart.


...

One more suggestion, I hope you live or can find a place in the inner city - because 'we' need people like you who have ideas tried and true from other cities, on how best to develop inner OKC. I live in Seattle, so most of my contribution is online and through examples of my world travels - but since you live in the city and seem to be bursting with ideas on urban/social society, you might feel much better in the inner city close to other like minded (but probably not as vocal) residents instead of those you mention who I guess predominate the rural and some suburbs of OKC (and most cities, in fact).

Just look at this forum, a good balance of people who contribute to the development of OKC - leaders do listen because we are a 'captive' audience eager to share ideas. Welcome to the forum, if you haven't already been - and take some time to see the real OKC (you might have to spend some time searching as it's not always out in your face or even media publicized like other cities), THEN come back with those constructive ideas on how to make the city better. Dont give up on us.

Yeah, in the next month or so, I'm going to start the loan pre-approval, etc. for finding a new house. We want to live close to where I grew up (NW 63rd/May area), and actually probably even closer in to the "inner city". And trust me, I've seen the real OKC, been to many places here many times that can be quite scary to other folks. Thanks for the reply...

I'm confused - how can I have nothing to do with OKC if I live here? If I live here, I *have* to have something to do with OKC since I am *in* OKC 24x7 (pretty much). Only Rover can clear this up, if it's worth clearing up.

I assumed you live here, just that you don't WANT to live here. Seems from your post you hate it here.

Way to play the victim card, man.

There are 300+ metro areas in this country, roughly 40 of them larger than OKC. Not to mention, one (and in fact, in your household, two people) can take A job, ANY job, to bide time until jobs in their preferred field(s) can be found.

Sorry, no sympathy here for someone who chose to return to their home town, rather than suffer the indignity of taking a part-time job or a job not in their preferred field.

No sympathy for someone who could only be bothered to look in a very few other metro areas rather than move back to one which they have come to to believe is beneath them.

There are soooo many ways in which you could have made other choices and avoided moving back to this city you hate.

I'd like to add to that, go back where you came from. I don't think you'll be missed here.

I think having people who are critical/go against the grain, is a positive for a community. Viewpoint diversity is a great thing.

I think having people who are critical/go against the grain, is a positive for a community. Viewpoint diversity is a great thing.
As long as they agree with you I suppose.

As long as they agree with you I suppose.

I agree that criticism from posters can be a positive aspect as long as that isn't the only thing they bring.

Way to play the victim card, man.

There are 300+ metro areas in this country, roughly 40 of them larger than OKC. Not to mention, one (and in fact, in your household, two people) can take A job, ANY job, to bide time until jobs in their preferred field(s) can be found.

Sorry, no sympathy here for someone who chose to return to their home town, rather than suffer the indignity of taking a part-time job or a job not in their preferred field.

No sympathy for someone who could only be bothered to look in a very few other metro areas rather than move back to one which they have come to to believe is beneath them.

There are soooo many ways in which you could have made other choices and avoided moving back to this city you hate.

You're just so wrong.

1. Victim? Victim of what?

2. I didn't ask for *any* sympathy from *anybody*, just stating how I got back here.

3. There is absolutely no indignity about a part-time job or non-in-my-field job - don't try to attribute that cr*p to me, I didn't say it, you did.

4. I only looked in a few metro areas because that was where I wanted to live - I don't want to live in LA, NYC, Fargo, Atlanta, Miami, ad infinitum, so why would I look for jobs there? Do you put "USA-All" in the location field when you search for jobs or do you narrow it down? This was near the beginning of the misery that is now completely encompassing the USA, and things were still tolerable as far as jobs go (the unemployment rate hadn't skyrocketed and made it so there's about 5 people for every job opening yet), so I thought it was perfectly reasonable to focus my job search on the few metros I wanted to live in. Why would I move to *another* metro area that I didn't know anything about, much less want to move to (one of the 300+ metro areas that I wasn't looking in that you refer to) and get even deeper in debt and possibly have to move *again* if that one didn't work out? OKC was the least worst option available at the time.

5. So if I take a part-time job and my wife takes a part-time job, or if we take 2-3 of them each, or just any old job, allowing only enough time to sleep, and don't make enough money to pay our bills, what then? Stuck in Seattle (we eventually figured out that it wasn't the area for us and we'd have to move anyway - high cost of living made it infeasible for us to live there in the places we wanted to in order to take advantage of what we moved there for, way too many people that were way too weird, even for us, and a few other reasons), losing our employability (Hiring manager - "Hmmm, you've been out of IT for a year now, sorry, but we have 83 other applicants that have better experience than you, thanks for applying, though") due to not working in our field, filing bankruptcy, defaulting on our debt, becoming homeless, etc.? Um, yeah, that's preferable to coming back to a city I hate.... I'm basically trying to keep living the lower-middle-class lifestyle I've lived for decades and trying to not go further into debt to do it.

Anyway, we could go on forever with this, but it's pointless - you think I'm and idiot and an a$$ and the feeling is reciprocated.

Way to play the victim card, man.

There are 300+ metro areas in this country, roughly 40 of them larger than OKC. Not to mention, one (and in fact, in your household, two people) can take A job, ANY job, to bide time until jobs in their preferred field(s) can be found.

Sorry, no sympathy here for someone who chose to return to their home town, rather than suffer the indignity of taking a part-time job or a job not in their preferred field.

No sympathy for someone who could only be bothered to look in a very few other metro areas rather than move back to one which they have come to to believe is beneath them.

There are soooo many ways in which you could have made other choices and avoided moving back to this city you hate.

This is hilarious coming from you, did you move from Tulsa?

You know what I love? People who move to OKC because it is the only place in America with jobs and a housing market that didn't fall into a sink-hole AND then complain how Oklahoma is doing everything wrong. Priceless.

You're just so wrong.

1. Victim? Victim of what?

2. I didn't ask for *any* sympathy from *anybody*, just stating how I got back here.

3. There is absolutely no indignity about a part-time job or non-in-my-field job - don't try to attribute that cr*p to me, I didn't say it, you did.

4. I only looked in a few metro areas because that was where I wanted to live - I don't want to live in LA, NYC, Fargo, Atlanta, Miami, ad infinitum, so why would I look for jobs there? Do you put "USA-All" in the location field when you search for jobs or do you narrow it down? This was near the beginning of the misery that is now completely encompassing the USA, and things were still tolerable as far as jobs go (the unemployment rate hadn't skyrocketed and made it so there's about 5 people for every job opening yet), so I thought it was perfectly reasonable to focus my job search on the few metros I wanted to live in. Why would I move to *another* metro area that I didn't know anything about, much less want to move to (one of the 300+ metro areas that I wasn't looking in that you refer to) and get even deeper in debt and possibly have to move *again* if that one didn't work out? OKC was the least worst option available at the time.

5. So if I take a part-time job and my wife takes a part-time job, or if we take 2-3 of them each, or just any old job, allowing only enough time to sleep, and don't make enough money to pay our bills, what then? Stuck in Seattle (we eventually figured out that it wasn't the area for us and we'd have to move anyway - high cost of living made it infeasible for us to live there in the places we wanted to in order to take advantage of what we moved there for, way too many people that were way too weird, even for us, and a few other reasons), losing our employability (Hiring manager - "Hmmm, you've been out of IT for a year now, sorry, but we have 83 other applicants that have better experience than you, thanks for applying, though") due to not working in our field, filing bankruptcy, defaulting on our debt, becoming homeless, etc.? Um, yeah, that's preferable to coming back to a city I hate.... I'm basically trying to keep living the lower-middle-class lifestyle I've lived for decades and trying to not go further into debt to do it.

Anyway, we could go on forever with this, but it's pointless - you think I'm and idiot and an a$$ and the feeling is reciprocated.

Your loquacious explanation of why you made the choice you did rather decisively proved my point that you in fact made a choice to move back to OKC. Thanks for helping out.

This is hilarious coming from you, did you move from Tulsa?

Nice try. But as usual, you missed the point. I never claimed to have have been forced to live in Tulsa, as TheTravellers has claimed with regard to his residency in OKC. (Nor, for that matter, have I ever expressed the sort of hate towards Tulsa and its people that TheTravellers expressed towards OKC and its people.)

You know what I love? People who move to OKC because it is the only place in America with jobs and a housing market that didn't fall into a sink-hole AND then complain how Oklahoma is doing everything wrong. Priceless.

Precisely.