I was at work today and a Waldenbooks employee told me today that their lease was up this winter and they got outbid. They are probobly going to start liquidation right after Xmas. The manager there said that the mall told them the store that got the lease has been waiting for a long time to get in PSM and that they heard by rumor is would be a H&M or Forever 21. Which to me it kinda of makes sense becuase they have a large store and a huge stockroom, but its all rumor right now. As far as Borders goes, supposedly all Borders are still staying open.

I knew they were phasing out a lot of the Walden locations so this doesn't surprise me. The day of the mall bookstore is gone. Kinda sad as that's where I would head when my wife went shopping and I didn't want to look at purses or whatever for an hour. You could always find a B. Dalton or Waldenbooks - no more.

This doesn't surprise me, the Waldenbooks in the St Louis Galleria had to leave a long time ago, and that mall is much further along than Penn Square.

It could be either Forever 21 or H&M. I'd put my money on Forever 21. Both stores have been on Penn Square's waiting list for a very long time. Forever 21 has been on there longer though. They've essentially been waiting for a store ever since they closed their Gadzooks location there. They signed an agreement with the mall that they'd give up their Gadzooks location for selection of a larger location for a Forever 21 store at a later date. So essentially, this space was promised for quite some time.

Although I think it will probably be Forever 21, don't count out Anthropologie, because they have also been promised a space in the mall in the near future.

Do you think Forever 21 could fit in the Waldenbooks space ? It seems to me that it would be too small for them. unless they are taking up two spaces.

That's unfortunate. Some of the stores at Penn are starting to look very Crossroads-like.

I'm actually okay with the current style of bookstores vacating the malls. I don't personally feel they are much of a draw to a mall in general when the free standing stores are so much larger and inviting to just come and, read, get a coffee and stay awhile. Now, if Penn Sq. had a Border's similar to the free standing one on NW Exp. I could see myself going to the mall more often and checking out the other stores too. Current mall bookstores just seem very outdated for the casual reader like myself and my wife.

But, in the line Midtowner was taking - I find many of the stores at Penn to be less than desirable and one of the reason I rarely visit the mall.

That's unfortunate. Some of the stores at Penn are starting to look very Crossroads-like. Give examples please? Apple, Coach, J Crew, Pottery Barn............these are stores not found in Crossroads or any other mall found in OKC.

That sucks!

I know of several malls around the country that have added a Barnes & Noble, including the Mall of America and Stonebriar in Frisco, TX. The traditional mall bookstore seems to be outmoded. As with everything else, it must be expanded and improved to remain competitive. Perhaps someday a nice bookstore will be added to Penn Square (although, I would rather shop at Full Circle across the street).

Give examples please? Apple, Coach, J Crew, Pottery Barn............these are stores not found in Crossroads or any other mall found in OKC.

Check the upper floor of the Dillard's hall and get back to me. The ghetto handbags store I think takes the cake.

If there is a such a long waiting list of upscale tenants with no presence in OKC like H&M, and Anthropologie, why is no one at Penn Square looking at ways to expand the space in the mall? If I were in charge of that mall and I had a global and somewhat exclusive store like H&M requesting space, I'd be designing a building addition within the week.

That's unfortunate. Some of the stores at Penn are starting to look very Crossroads-like.
100% agreement!!

Check the upper floor of the Dillard's hall and get back to me. The ghetto handbags store I think takes the cake.

So a store that sells handbags that you consider "ghetto" is bad because??? If it brings in money, then thats all that matters in the end.

So a store that sells handbags that you consider "ghetto" is bad because??? If it brings in money, then thats all that matters in the end.

That's pretty naive. That may be all that matters to the store's owner, but its hardly even a concern to the public. I personally don't care so much that a couple of the stores are "ghetto," "tacky," "too juvenile," whatever - what I do care about is when the stores and overall atmosphere attract a less than desirable crowd. This is one reason I think the trend is reversing back to standalone stores in shopping centers instead of malls.

Speaking of Waldenbooks, I honestly feel that space is pretty small, not as big as the one at Crossroads mall

So a store that sells handbags that you consider "ghetto" is bad because??? If it brings in money, then thats all that matters in the end.

All he said was it was looking Crossroadsy. And that store is a good example. You don't want those chintzy locally owned jobs in one of your "higher end" malls. An established, national brand that isn't in our market would be much more desirable and presumably more financially stable.

So a store that sells handbags that you consider "ghetto" is bad because??? If it brings in money, then thats all that matters in the end.

Wow. You appear to be taking this very personally. If this is your store, then here is some constructive criticism:

1) Get the security door fixed. The metal bars hanging from the entryway do not add to the charm or appeal of the store.
2) Merchandising does not mean hanging every last bit of your inventory out on hooks hanging from the slot walls left by the previous tenant.
3) A dress code for employees might be a good thing.

I'm sure they're going to make money selling cheap handbags at slightly less absurd markups than departments stores. But they do look very Crossroads-like, and they most certainly are not upscale. Paying the rent in a mall shouldn't be the end all/be all of being a tenant there. There should be aesthetic requirements as well and that handbags store misses the mark.

That's pretty naive. That may be all that matters to the store's owner, but its hardly even a concern to the public. I personally don't care so much that a couple of the stores are "ghetto," "tacky," "too juvenile," whatever - what I do care about is when the stores and overall atmosphere attract a less than desirable crowd. This is one reason I think the trend is reversing back to standalone stores in shopping centers instead of malls.

Those "tacky" and "juvenile" stores don't bother me a bit. Spencer's and that other store which sells the tacky message t-shirts at least have good custom signs, are extremely well merchandised and though their employees dress in the tacky garb sold by their employers, they actually are adhering to a dress code which matches with the store. Hot Topix, etc. are fine by me so long as they are well executed.

Nu Trends, isn't that the name of one of these awful stores? I can only imagine it's there temporarily while they shuffle tenants around and make room for news ones.

Nu Trends, isn't that the name of one of these awful stores? I can only imagine it's there temporarily while they shuffle tenants around and make room for news ones.

Yes.

And I hope so.

Yeah, the stores you mention are just temporary stores until they find the right permanent tenants. And all malls have those kind of local temporary tenants. Quail Springs has the same types of temporary stores. Actually, Penn has fewer of those types of stores now than in the past. The only ones I can think of are Nue Trendz and the handbags store.

Regarding the upstairs Dillards wing, the handbags store is the only one I can think of that looks "like Crossroads." Every other store up there has a permanent lease...the other stores are Aldo, New York and Company, Foot Locker, Buildabear, Vanity, Abercrombie, Hollister, Yankee Candle, Aldo accessories, Vans, The Buckle, Kays Jewelry, Icing by Claires, Lady Footlocker, Lids, Express and Express Men, Pac Sun, Aeropstale, Candyopolis, American Eagle, Payless, and Eskimo Joes. I don't see the problem....every space except that one is filled with a permanent national retailer.

And, Walden Books is a lot larger space than you think. It has a huge stock room in the back, that goes far in behind even Gamestop next door. So, the space is more than large enough for a Forever 21. But I wouldn't be surprised if On Deck or Gamestop end up leaving as well to provide space. I'm thinking that On Deck is on a temporary lease.

And IMO, a strong upscale national retailer like Forever 21 is far better than a struggling mall bookstore. I think the changeover in space is not only a good use of the space, but a sign of the strength of the mall.

That's unfortunate. Some of the stores at Penn are starting to look very Crossroads-like.

I hope you're not referring to Forever 21 being a "Crossroads like store." Forever 21 is an upscale clothing national retailer, in some of the finest malls in the US.

Check the upper floor of the Dillard's hall and get back to me. The ghetto handbags store I think takes the cake.

Every other store up there has a permanent lease...the other stores are Aldo, New York and Company, Foot Locker, Buildabear, Vanity, Abercrombie, Hollister, Yankee Candle, Aldo accessories, Vans, The Buckle, Kays Jewelry, Icing by Claires, Lady Footlocker, Lids, Express and Express Men, Pac Sun, Aeropstale, Candyopolis, American Eagle, Payless, and Eskimo Joes. I don't see the problem....every space except that one is filled with a permanent national retailer.

If there is a such a long waiting list of upscale tenants with no presence in OKC like H&M, and Anthropologie, why is no one at Penn Square looking at ways to expand the space in the mall? If I were in charge of that mall and I had a global and somewhat exclusive store like H&M requesting space, I'd be designing a building addition within the week.

Where do you plan on putting this building addition? I think the mall is pretty limited with the small lot on which it currently sits. And, I don't know where another wing would go. They're pretty land-locked. The building won't support a 3rd floor. It would be cost-prohibitive to completely demolish the entire mall and rebuild a 3 level mall. I think they're stuck with the structure they have.

I'm not sure I'd call Forever 21 upscale, but it knocks off a lot of upscale clothing. My daughters like it for trendier things that they know they won't want to wear in a few years and thus they'd rather not spend a lot of money on them. It is wildly successful in Chicago, I know, as they've got a huge store on Michigan.

I think the point many people are making is that there is no reason why Penn Square cannot have some really good stores that similar malls in similar cities have. Some of these stores are: Armani Exchange, Benetton, Espirit, H&M, Guess, Calvin Klein, Club Monaco, Lucky Jeans, Kenneth Cole, etc.

Long term, I really wish Penn Square would look to bring in Nordstrom to replace the JcPenney. I'm just not sure if they are looking to make their mall "great", rather than just good.

Nu Trendz is the other Crossroads-like store. They came in and replaced The Sharper Image (after they declared bankruptcy and went to online-only). From what I can tell, they just put curtain rods into the Sharper Image display cases, stuck in some floor racks and put up a cheap sign.

I think the main reason we haven't seen a Forever 21 in Penn Square yet is because I'm sure they want a space big enough to accommodate a full size store. The stores in Quail and Sooner are fairly reserved as far as size is concerned. A Forever 21 big enough to hold girls and guys stuff would be a great boost for Penn. I completely agree about Honey's Handbags and Nu Trendz. My main problem with Honey's Handbags is the mall can't seem to keep anything stable in that space. I'm not sure who all here frequents the mall but I believe it was this time last year, they had a men's "sexy" underwear store move in (they had a fashion show and everything) and then probably 3 months after they opened (if that), a pipe burst and ruined all of their merchandise. I'm just not sure what you could fit in that tiny space.

I think the main reason we haven't seen a Forever 21 in Penn Square yet is because I'm sure they want a space big enough to accommodate a full size store. The stores in Quail and Sooner are fairly reserved as far as size is concerned. A Forever 21 big enough to hold girls and guys stuff would be a great boost for Penn. I completely agree about Honey's Handbags and Nu Trendz. My main problem with Honey's Handbags is the mall can't seem to keep anything stable in that space. I'm not sure who all here frequents the mall but I believe it was this time last year, they had a men's "sexy" underwear store move in (they had a fashion show and everything) and then probably 3 months after they opened (if that), a pipe burst and ruined all of their merchandise. I'm just not sure what you could fit in that tiny space.

Excuse the pun?

That spot has been a problem at Penn Square. All in all though, I think Simon does a great job with Penn.

ha unintended.

but yes, I agree they do a great job (especially recently)... those two stores are really the only sore spots that I can think of.

This is classified info and kind of off topic but I can speak with authority that there are about to be two open spaces at Quail in mid January. One being a very large one (Well not huge but a large space)

I think the main reason we haven't seen a Forever 21 in Penn Square yet is because I'm sure they want a space big enough to accommodate a full size store. The stores in Quail and Sooner are fairly reserved as far as size is concerned. A Forever 21 big enough to hold girls and guys stuff would be a great boost for Penn.

In the end, Penn Square is just limited by space. They're on a pretty small land-locked lot, with little to no room to expand. They do have over 1 million square feet of space, but that's not a lot when you're talking about bringing in high end retailers and creating a "Galleria-type" mall. They'd need over 2 million square feet to create something like that. Stores like Forever 21, Restoration Hardware, and Anthropologie require a lot of space, so often it's simply waiting for other leases to expire to create a large enough space to house these stores. Plus, this is Oklahoma City, and it is a traditional mall, so they have to balance out the types of stores they offer, with some high end national retailers as well as traditional mall stores like Gap and American Eagle. I think they do a pretty good job with the tenant mix, considering the space they have to work with.


I completely agree about Honey's Handbags and Nu Trendz. My main problem with Honey's Handbags is the mall can't seem to keep anything stable in that space. I'm not sure who all here frequents the mall but I believe it was this time last year, they had a men's "sexy" underwear store move in (they had a fashion show and everything) and then probably 3 months after they opened (if that), a pipe burst and ruined all of their merchandise. I'm just not sure what you could fit in that tiny space.

Nue Trendz is just a temporary space while they negotiate a permanent replacement for that space. All malls fill empty spaces with temporary tenants to make money until they can replace them with permanent leases. General Growth does the same thing at Quail Springs. Many times it takes time to find just the right tenant for a certain space. It's not that there aren't tenants wanting to move into the mall, it's finding the right tenant for the space. I have no doubt that space will be filled with a permanent national retailer, as it is in a pretty prime location, but mall management doesn't want to rush into the wrong fit for the mall, and thus it takes time to market the space to just the right tenant.

In regards to Honey's Handbags, that's a tough space to market because it's so small. A lot of national retailers want larger spaces, and there simply isn't a lot of space in that location. If you haven't seen the location, it's probably about the size of your bathroom at home...seriously, it's not a large space.

I think the point many people are making is that there is no reason why Penn Square cannot have some really good stores that similar malls in similar cities have. Some of these stores are: Armani Exchange, Benetton, Espirit, H&M, Guess, Calvin Klein, Club Monaco, Lucky Jeans, Kenneth Cole, etc.

Long term, I really wish Penn Square would look to bring in Nordstrom to replace the JcPenney. I'm just not sure if they are looking to make their mall "great", rather than just good.

Actually, I wouldn't have a problem with them keeping JC Penney. I'd rather they keep JC Penney and just add a 5th anchor space on the property by Pepperoni Grill. Ideally, it would be nice to see them both replace JC Penney and add a 5th anchor, but again I think they're limited by space. But, adding a 5th anchor to the west side of the mall, and just building another parking garage on the north side of the property would be do-able. I'd love to see them add two high end department stores like Nordstrom and either Nieman Marcus or Saks.

I think the point many people are making is that there is no reason why Penn Square cannot have some really good stores that similar malls in similar cities have. Some of these stores are: Armani Exchange, Benetton, Espirit, H&M, Guess, Calvin Klein, Club Monaco, Lucky Jeans, Kenneth Cole, etc.

Long term, I really wish Penn Square would look to bring in Nordstrom to replace the JcPenney. I'm just not sure if they are looking to make their mall "great", rather than just good.

Most "great" malls are much larger than Penn Square. So that plays into the equation. If there was a way they could add a 3rd floor or double the size of the mall, that would be nice, but again they're limited by the property.

Where do you plan on putting this building addition? I think the mall is pretty limited with the small lot on which it currently sits. And, I don't know where another wing would go. They're pretty land-locked. The building won't support a 3rd floor. It would be cost-prohibitive to completely demolish the entire mall and rebuild a 3 level mall. I think they're stuck with the structure they have.

I would close some more of the black top, expand the parking garage, and then you could close more of the black top and expand another wing, or you could build a sky bridge and expand into 50 Penn Place, but since they said that retail is no long the focus I don't see that happening.

I would close some more of the black top, expand the parking garage, and then you could close more of the black top and expand another wing, or you could build a sky bridge and expand into 50 Penn Place, but since they said that retail is no long the focus I don't see that happening.

The issue with 50 Penn was actually looked into. The main problem was that the owners of the property didn't want to sell the property to Simon. And also, the property is predominantly office space, and Simon is more in the business of retail. Secondly, the city wouldn't provide a permit to build over 6 lanes of traffic on NW Expressway. Even if they would, the logistics wouldn't work as the sky bridge would have to be higher than the current 2nd level of Penn Square.

Where do you plan on placing this new wing? The only space I could think of is expanding from the main front entrance. But there's not a lot of space from there to the end of the parking lot.

For the record, some of the retailers being considered for the Nue Trendz space are Aerie by American Eagle, Oakley, Crazy 8 (Gymboree wants to expand with another offering - they may locate next door where Gap Kids is currently in a temporary space, and Gap Kids may locate in the Nue Trendz space), and Fossil.

I'm suprised Penn Square doesn't have Oakley. They do have a store at Woodland Hills in Tulsa.

What about this for Expansion plans? Maybe make the new areas 3 stories or easy for future upward additions and after they add the 3rd story they move current tenets to the new expansion and then rebuild the rest of the mall as a three story mall. The western Dillard's has been extended to make up for the lost space on the 2nd floor, it should actually end up bigger and if they were to do this. The new anchor could be three stories but i don't know how well that would work. This would also require another parking garage. there are a couple options for this. First expanding the existing one all the way north and maybe in the new area adding underground parking or another level. Also somewhere east of macys. they could also do underground parking underneath the expansions.


http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5162/5281848570_f4a0a8a805_b.jpg

here is the original map for comparison


http://www.simon.com/utilities/ResizeImage.aspx?image=/assets/mall/811/floorplans/811Penn_SquareMall.gif&w=650

The issue with 50 Penn was actually looked into. The main problem was that the owners of the property didn't want to sell the property to Simon. And also, the property is predominantly office space, and Simon is more in the business of retail.I can attest to the fact that Simon treats office space like retail since our offices are in the office portion of The Domain, many of their policies are directly from the mall world. Transwestern handles the leasing so it is a hybrid of mall and commercial office worlds, just a little odd at times. We do many of the designs for new offices there and I have started on a Midland Park Mall (Midland, Texas) remodel so we are getting well versed in the world which is Simon. Most of their newer developments are the lifestyle centers with retail, office and apartments like The Domain so Simon is very immersed in it but they do tend to team up with companies whose strengths lie in the commercial office and apartment worlds.

I can attest to the fact that Simon treats office space like retail since our offices are in the office portion of The Domain, many of their policies are directly from the mall world. Transwestern handles the leasing so it is a hybrid of mall and commercial office worlds, just a little odd at times. We do many of the designs for new offices there and I have started on a Midland Park Mall (Midland, Texas) remodel so we are getting well versed in the world which is Simon. Most of their newer developments are the lifestyle centers with retail, office and apartments like The Domain so Simon is very immersed in it but they do tend to team up with companies whose strengths lie in the commercial office and apartment worlds.

Very true. In fact, Simon was all signed up, if you remember, for the I-35 Covell Lifestyle project. That would have been very, very nice. Too bad.

I like the made up maps for expansion and I want PSM to expand, but I am telling you it will never happen, you cant sacrifice that much parking. PSM would need to buy up some land or try and take 50 penn which wont happen.

And for the people who like to flame PSM, its a good mall, gets great foot traffic, the people who are managing it are really trying hard to make it better and although the security looks like Paul Blart they really care about the property. It has most stores that you would would see in a larger market mall. The mall is waiting for the "less desirable" stores leases to end, they are not going to kick out paid leases in this economy. Nu Trendz is an eyesore believe me, but until that lease is up they are staying.

Most landlocked malls who have expanded stores have had to build structured parking instead of using surface parking. The majority of the parking at The Domain here in Austin is structured parking, something like 70% of the spaces are structured parking. If new leases can justify the cost of new buildings and parking then Simon will do it. Not sure if they would do turnkey or build-to-suit anchors, I guess it just depends on the anchor.

There are much larger malls that have far less surface parking. Actually there are many larger malls that have strictly parking garages and no surface parking.

Yeah the structured parking would have to be a requirement and probably a Phase 1. Expanding Dillards would be a phase 2. The rest of the mall would have to be the 3rd phase. I don't know how many malls have a loop layout and dont know how well it would work.

There are much larger malls that have far less surface parking. Actually there are many larger malls that have strictly parking garages and no surface parking.

The Beverly Center is a little smaller retail space than Penn Square with about 900,000 square feet and 160 stores but sits on top of a multi-story parking garage.

http://beverly-center.mallsite.us/gallery.html

Reading this thread has reminded me that I was going to contact the Penn Square mall leasing office to complain about the gym. Has anyone else been annoyed while in Pottery Barn Kids and hearing the noise from the above gym? It yields quite a disgusting shopping environment. Just plain wrong!

I wonder if they did expand Dillard's. Would they close the East Dillard's? I was thinking maybe a Dick's Sporting Goods could go in that spot. Then again that space maybe too big for Dick's.

Yeah why don we need two dillards

Yeah why don we need two dillards

Dillards usually buys an empty anchor space to split thier departments when an anchor moves out. They do that in a lot of malls thay have a presence in. Like in this case when Montgomery Ward went out of business Dillards moved thier mens childrens and home department in the old Wards anchor at Penn Square. Macy's does the same thing.

Dillards usually buys an empty anchor space to split thier departments when an anchor moves out. They do that in a lot of malls thay have a presence in. Like in this case when Montgomery Ward went out of business Dillards moved thier mens childrens and home department in the old Wards anchor at Penn Square. Macy's does the same thing.

It is true, they do that (and it was bad enough when the Dillards was split across the mall walkway) now parts of the store are on opposite ends of the mall. To much hassle for me. Want an entire store in one place.

The Hobby Lobby over in Mid-Del was structered that way, part of the store was at one end of the strip mall and the rest was at the other end. Made it difficult to find stuff as they often have things not neatly departmentalized and you wouldn't know which store to find the item.

http://newsok.com/new-stores-in-store-for-oklahoma-city-price-edwards-says/article/3526044?custom_click=pod_headline_oklahoma-financial-news

SkyWestOKC, Ya beat me to it

but this highlight is worthy...

Dick's Sporting Goods, Anthropologie, The Container Store, California Pizza Kitchen and LA Fitness are among the national names “that want to be here and are actively looking for sites,”

That would be cool if OKC gets a Dick's Sporting Goods.

I like the made up maps for expansion and I want PSM to expand, but I am telling you it will never happen, you cant sacrifice that much parking. PSM would need to buy up some land or try and take 50 penn which wont happen.

I also don't think it would happen, but all of the space you lost in surface parking, you could replace with structured parking. Just look at The Galleria in Dallas.


And for the people who like to flame PSM, its a good mall, gets great foot traffic, the people who are managing it are really trying hard to make it better and although the security looks like Paul Blart they really care about the property. It has most stores that you would would see in a larger market mall. The mall is waiting for the "less desirable" stores leases to end, they are not going to kick out paid leases in this economy. Nu Trendz is an eyesore believe me, but until that lease is up they are staying.

Nue Trendz is a temporary month to month lease, until they get final deals worked out on the permanent tenant, which at times can take months, sometimes years for the right tenant.

Yeah why don we need two dillards

Because what they're offering is what they'd offer in one of their flagship stores. Only it's much cheaper to use 2 existing 2 level anchor spaces than demolish existing space and build a new 3-4 level flagship store.

Yeah the structured parking would have to be a requirement and probably a Phase 1. Expanding Dillards would be a phase 2. The rest of the mall would have to be the 3rd phase. I don't know how many malls have a loop layout and dont know how well it would work.

Northpark Center in Dallas has a loop layout and does fairly well with its 200+ stores, some of the finest found anywhere. By far the nicest mall in Dallas.

It is true, they do that (and it was bad enough when the Dillards was split across the mall walkway) now parts of the store are on opposite ends of the mall. To much hassle for me. Want an entire store in one place.

The Hobby Lobby over in Mid-Del was structered that way, part of the store was at one end of the strip mall and the rest was at the other end. Made it difficult to find stuff as they often have things not neatly departmentalized and you wouldn't know which store to find the item.

Not sure what's so confusing about the way Dillards at Penn Square is split up. Dillards west is an all women's store. Dillards east is mens, children's, and home.

That would be cool if OKC gets a Dick's Sporting Goods.

They're looking at the old Sportsman's warehouse space on Memorial by Quail Springs Mall.